Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Soahc 06-21-07, 07:31 AM	I constantly see people suggesting feats which a psi crystal can take, and telling me that yes you can choose feats, this gets me excited and I start making builds involving feet leech and my crystal. Then my DM says I can't do it, it's not in the rules, that's irritating...but not hopeless - he'll take the word of the Wizards [u}HELP[/u] staff. So I email them and this is what I get.. Thank you for writing. Psicrystals will not gain feats due to additional hit dice gained. Please let me know if you need anymore help! Good Gaming! We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire. To login to your account, or update your question please click here. Rob Customer Service Representative Wizards of the Coast 1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada) 425-204-8069 (From all other countries) Monday-Friday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST Either Rob just doesn't no the answer and said no anyway, or he's correct and everyone else is wrong! Can someone clear this up for me please?
zuul88 06-21-07, 07:39 AM	They get feats by RAW(I saw a proof on it, no less) but they are not intended to get feats. I went through the process of explaining step by step how my psicrystal got feats to my DM. My psicrystal gets feats now But he is counting it as a NPC under my control. So I tried to come up and did but still have to pay a price. That is D&D for you any advantage is balanced by a disadvantage unless you are CoDzilla stomping through Toyko. Respect Nathan
Tyroki 06-21-07, 08:33 AM	They get feats by RAW(I saw proof on it, no less) but they are not intended to get feats. I went through the process of explaining step by step how my psicrystal got feats to my DM. My psicrystal gets feats now But he is counting it as a NPC under my control. So I tried to come up and did but still have to pay a price. That is D&D for you any advantage is balanced by a disadvantage unless you are CoDzilla stomping through Toyko. Respect Nathan What was the step by step process? =3
Suldarr'essalar 06-21-07, 09:16 AM	Either Rob just doesn't no the answer and said no anyway, or he's correct and everyone else is wrong! Can someone clear this up for me please? And what are the arguments? http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm: Psicrystals A psicrystal is treated as a construct for the purposes of all effects that depend on its type. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#constructType Features A construct has the following features. * 10-sided Hit Dice. * Base attack bonus equal to ¾ total Hit Dice (as cleric). * No good saving throws. * Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, if the construct has an Intelligence score. However, most constructs are mindless and gain no skill points or feats. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/psicrystal.htm Psicrystal Abilities: Str 1*, Dex 15*, Con Ø, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 10
Tyroki 06-21-07, 09:18 AM	I love the idea of them having feats >.>
Racinante 06-21-07, 10:43 AM	Based on the RAW, yes they can have feats. Based on this mind's eye article and custserv responses, they cannot: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20020322a
Tempest Stormwind 06-21-07, 11:12 AM	Based on the RAW, yes they can have feats. Based on this mind's eye article and custserv responses, they cannot: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20020322a Psst! That was a 3e Mind's Eye article, where constructs never gained feats from HD, ever. Feat gaining was standardized in 3.5. See the FAQ at the top of the forum. This proof and CustServ's position is discussed there. Trevor K said they were going to try to get errata out, but yeah, psionics is neglected yet again.
InkBlot 06-21-07, 11:15 AM	According to what's written in the XPH, psicrystals gain actual hit dice. In contrast, familiars are only treated as having more hit dice for the purpose of certain spells (like sleep). This is the important part: A psicrystal’s characteristics depend on its master. Its Hit Dice are equal to its master’s Hit Dice (counting only levels in psion or wilder), its hit points are equal to half its master’s, and its saving throw bonuses are the same as its master’s. Now compare it to familiars: A familiar is a normal animal that gains new powers and becomes a magical beast when summoned to service by a sorcerer or wizard. It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but it is treated as a magical beast instead of an animal for the purpose of any effect that depends on its type. (...) Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s normal HD total, whichever is higher. And compare again to animal companions: Bonus HD: Extra eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal. Remember that extra Hit Dice improve the animal companion’s base attack and base save bonuses. An animal companion’s base attack bonus is the same as that of a druid of a level equal to the animal’s HD. An animal companion has good Fortitude and Reflex saves (treat it as a character whose level equals the animal’s HD). An animal companion gains additional skill points and feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice. Curiously, the psicrystal entry under the psion class is missing any information about HD. Only the psicrystal's monster entry mentions it's HD being equal to the owner's psion/wilder levels (psywar, ardent, lurk, soulknife, erudite, and prestige class levels apparently don't count).
lears_fool 06-21-07, 11:21 AM	I never got the feat argument. They clearly weren't intended not to gain levels/feats, just as familiars aren't and it always seemed like a very hopeful interpretation that I'd never let my players get away with with any other class. I mean, it would've been nice, but I couldn't rationalize even TRYING as a player with a straight face.
Scion of Coldshard 06-21-07, 11:23 AM	I never got the feat argument. How many intelligent creatures with hd do not have feats again?
lears_fool 06-21-07, 11:34 AM	How many intelligent creatures with hd do not have feats again? It's the 'with actual hit dice resulting in level advancement and feats' With the familiar it's made very clear that they do not gain actual hit dice. .familiars are 'treated as having' the master's hit dice. The psicrystal's just stated more vaguely. If they were really INTENDED to gain hit dice and feats it should be stated explicitly and not assumed. That's a huge difference and we should assume the safest option rather than jump to the most powerful conclusion. Looks to me like a case of iffy editing and slow clarification rather than an actual intent to have psicrystals gain feats (especially ones the master doesn't have considering they're part of his personality). I'm just not a big fan of taking blatant advantage of an obvious oversight like that.
AntiDjinn 06-21-07, 11:42 AM	My psicrystal gets feats now But he is counting it as a NPC under my control. It basically always was an NPC under PC control. Then again, so are familiars and mounts. Any being other than your actual character is an NPC. Controlled NPCs will generally do what you want, but the DM can speak for them as he wishes and if you are KO'ed or unavailable the DM decides what the controlled creature does.
Scion of Coldshard 06-21-07, 11:48 AM	It's the 'with actual hit dice resulting in level advancement and feats' Who said anything about level advancement? In any event, the psicrystal is listed as having hd. Since there is no special mention of them not gaining feats like every other intelligent creature with hd then we really only have one conclusion based on the raw. Rai is as meaningless to me as what the designers had for breakfast when they were making the wererat entry. We dont really have a way of knowing and since it isnt written down we shouldnt really care. Errata fixes all of these problems without having to guess.
InkBlot 06-21-07, 11:52 AM	AntiDjinn, the exact nature of the arrangement is different in each game. It's more or less a matter of who rolls the dice. In my group, familiars/animal companions/psicrystals are always under direct control of the player, and under the indirect control of the PC. It sounds like in your games, familiars/companions/psicrystals are under the direct control of the DM, and under the indirect control of the PC. I took Zuul's meaning as being that his group normaly plays psicrystals the way mine does, but then switched direct control of the psicrystal over to the DM.
Racinante 06-21-07, 12:01 PM	Psst! That was a 3e Mind's Eye article, where constructs never gained feats from HD, ever. Feat gaining was standardized in 3.5. Yes, I know, but it may be the precedence that custserv is still using, unfortunately.
Favored Enemy 06-21-07, 01:00 PM	This is still being discussed a year later? BWAH HA HA! You people are ridiculous! Let it go rules lawyers...
yarethon 06-21-07, 01:31 PM	It's the 'with actual hit dice resulting in level advancement and feats' With the familiar it's made very clear that they do not gain actual hit dice. .familiars are 'treated as having' the master's hit dice. The psicrystal's just stated more vaguely. If they were really INTENDED to gain hit dice and feats it should be stated explicitly and not assumed. That's a huge difference and we should assume the safest option rather than jump to the most powerful conclusion. Looks to me like a case of iffy editing and slow clarification rather than an actual intent to have psicrystals gain feats (especially ones the master doesn't have considering they're part of his personality). I'm just not a big fan of taking blatant advantage of an obvious oversight like that. I completely agree with this argument. Reading XPH time and time again, I still think there was no intention of giving a psion's psicrystal actual hd. As a dm I find it hard to be convinced of it. In my opinion, there should not be such a huge difference between familiars and psicrystal. On doubt, I always try to go with what seems to be more balanced. Off course, you have to consider that, psionics being so ... errr... left aside by WoTC, we don't have a convincing official answer for that.
Harbin_Dunewalker 06-21-07, 02:36 PM	It has been specifically stated by one of the designers (I think) that psicrystals were never INTENDED to gain feats. However, even said person agrees that, RAW, there is NO way to actually stop them from gaining feats. As such, it's essentially "Errata by Rule 0," where your DM states that no, they don't get feats. But RAW, Psicrystals gain feats. Even the developers don't argue with that.
Racinante 06-21-07, 02:43 PM	I completely agree with this argument. Reading XPH time and time again, I still think there was no intention of giving a psion's psicrystal actual hd. This I agree with, however the psicrystal monster entry lists Alertness as a feat the psicrystal has and includes the bonuses from this feat in the stat block. A psicrystal created (and this is the only way to create a psicrystal) through Psicrystal Affinity grants its owner the Alertness feat when within range, but does not gain the benefits itself. As a dm I find it hard to be convinced of it. In my opinion, there should not be such a huge difference between familiars and psicrystal. On doubt, I always try to go with what seems to be more balanced. Off course, you have to consider that, psionics being so ... errr... left aside by WoTC, we don't have a convincing official answer for that. However familiars always have feats related to their monster hit dice. It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was And advanced familiars, like the ice mephits, imps, and quasits may have 2 or more feats.
kyeudo 06-21-07, 02:59 PM	Here is Tempest's Q&A on Psicrystals getting feats from the FAQ. Q: What's this I hear about psicrystals gaining feats? Familiars dont'! A: A psicrystal isn't a familiar, though. A familiar says that it is treated as if it were a creature of its master's HD for effects relating to HD, such as Sleep. A psicrystal's HD entry is "as master" -- meaning it actually gains HD. Every intelligent creature that gains hit dice gains feats. Conclusion: Psicrystals gain feats. Note that a psicrystal doesn't gain hit points from these construct hit dice (its hit point entry is "half master's"), and its saving throws are unaffected (saving throw text "as master"), and that it does not gain skill points from them either (skill entry rules give it at least 4 ranks in certain skills, and otherwise identical skills to it's master's)... but in other regards, it gains Construct hit dice. Q: What is a psicrystal's base attack bonus? A: As a direct result of the way the rules work, it'll be 3/4 the psicrystal's hit dice -- in other words, the base attack bonus of a cleric/rogue/psychic warrior of a level equal to the sum of your psionic class levels. (Note that if the psicrystal did not gain hit dice, no rules exist for the replacement of base attack bonus (familiars have such rules), and thus a psicrystal would be permanantly stuck with a +0 base attack bonus.) Q: Wait, this is all very confusing... A: It may seem so. Here's an example from a hypothetical 5th level psion's psicrystal. All that matters for the sake of comparison here is that we have a 5th level master (the exact statistics of the master are not essential to the psicrystal's stats; the stats depending on the master's are left referencing the master's). Anything bolded is different from the basic stat block.Size/Type: Diminutive Construct Hit Dice: 5d(?)**, hit points half master's Initiative: +3 Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), climb 20 ft.* Armor Class: 19 (+4 size, +3 Dex*, +2 natural), touch 17, flat-footed 16 Base Attack/Grapple: +3/-14 Attack: - Full Attack: - Space/Reach: 1ft/0ft Special Attacks: - Special Qualities: Construct traits, hardness 8, psicrystal granted abilities (improved evasion, personality, self-propulsion, share powers, sighted, telepathic link, deliver touch powers, telepathic speech) Saves: As master's saves Abilities: Str 1*, Dex 16*, Con Ø, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 10 Skills: As master's ranks except at least 4 ranks in Spot, Listen, Move Silently, and Search. +8 racial bonus on Climb checks, uses Dexterity for Climb checks, and may always choose to take 10 on Climb.. Uses own ability modifiers on skill checks. Feats: Alertness, one other feat (from 3rd hit die) Environment: Any Organization: Solitary Challenge Rating: Included with master Treasure: None Alignment: As master Advancement: — Level Adjustment: — *With self-propulsion ability activated; otherwise -. This psicrystal increased its Dexterity by 1 at its fourth hit die. **Some uncertainty exists over the exact size of the psicrystal's hit dice. This is, however, irrelevant, as the text immediately afterward overwrites any possible effect that the size of the hit dice could have. (For what it's worth, my money's on d10.) In plain English, this means that you don't need to worry about the size of the psicrystal's hit dice, only that it has 5 of them, is of Construct type (with all the features and traits of these (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#constructType) except those that are based on the master's), and has half the hit points the master does. Note that some DMs let you choose a different first-hit-die feat in place of Alertness, and that the psicrystal doesn't gain bonus feats if the master does. Additionally, the feat must be one the *psicrystal* qualifies for -- and on its own, the psicrystal isn't psionic, so one of those feats has to be Wild Talent if you want to give the psicrystal psionic feats. This is also in the rules; doing so isn't a houserule. However, most DMs don't like Psicrystals gaining feats, for balance or flavor reasons, myself included. However, your DM should clarify this in advance, as a courtesy.
yarethon 06-21-07, 03:19 PM	Originally Posted byRacinante However familiars always have feats related to their monster hit dice. yes, but they don't recieve any feats from its advancement related to its master's levels. Originally Posted by Harbin_Dunewalker It has been specifically stated by one of the designers (I think) that psicrystals were never INTENDED to gain feats. However, even said person agrees that, RAW, there is NO way to actually stop them from gaining feats. As such, it's essentially "Errata by Rule 0," where your DM states that no, they don't get feats. But RAW, Psicrystals gain feats. Even the developers don't argue with that Now there you go. I just care for what they were intended to. I could not care less for what XPH strictly says about it. No offense.
lears_fool 06-21-07, 04:23 PM	Now there you go. I just care for what they were intended to. I could not care less for what XPH strictly says about it. No offense. Pretty much my take. Yes, by RAW it CAN be interpreted that psicrystals gain feats, but emphasis on CAN be. I'm not big on rules lawyering for personal gain. We all know it wasn't the intent. I wouldn't respect a player who tried to pull that off in my campaign (any rules lawyering like that. .not just the psicrystal/feat thing) And I wouldn't respect myself if I tried the same thing. Or even let myself get worked up about it.
Nephlite 06-21-07, 05:03 PM	Pretty much my take. Yes, by RAW it CAN be interpreted that psicrystals gain feats, but emphasis on CAN be. I'm not big on rules lawyering for personal gain. We all know it wasn't the intent. I wouldn't respect a player who tried to pull that off in my campaign (any rules lawyering like that. .not just the psicrystal/feat thing) And I wouldn't respect myself if I tried the same thing. Or even let myself get worked up about it. I would respect them: the player at the least read the rules. (Some players don't).
lears_fool 06-21-07, 07:07 PM	I would respect them: the player at the least read the rules. (Some players don't). I'll take players I'd need to teach a bit over players that'd deliberately manipulate the rules to their advantage any day. And as a player, knowing the rules, I couldn't bring myself to deliberately choose that interpretation without having explicit clarification that it was how it was intended and written. .which clearly is not the case.
Bacris 06-21-07, 07:20 PM	Manipulating the rules? Seems pretty cut and dry to me that they gain them. I mean, seriously, just how much of an impact is it for a psicrystal to gain feats? I'd allow it as a DM - and for the record, my ardent's psicrystal does not have any feats :p
lears_fool 06-21-07, 07:41 PM	Manipulating the rules? Seems pretty cut and dry to me that they gain them. I mean, seriously, just how much of an impact is it for a psicrystal to gain feats? I'd allow it as a DM - and for the record, my ardent's psicrystal does not have any feats :p Cut and Dry only by deliberately misinterpreting the intent. I'm a gamer, I love psionics as much because of the great RP potential as for the mechanics (which are quite superior to arcane/divine mechanics). I'm fully aware Psionics gets a short shift but also fully aware that if the intent was to allow psicrystals to gain feats it would have been stated explicitly (and there would have been some neat feats for psicrystals) It wasn't. .because that interpretation wasn't intended. And personally I still see it as a pretty deliberately self-serving interpretation of the rules. Just because psi gets a bad deal does NOT make it okay to do something that, if done by a cleric or wizard, would cause you to accuse THEM of powergaming.
DM-Scott 06-21-07, 07:51 PM	Well I enjoy following the rules. My players trust me at our table because they know that I'll keep the rules as close to standard as possible, and aren't afraid of me suddenly nerfing any of their stuff because I don't like it. If it's too powerful, I speak to them about it and attempt to come to a viable solution that fits close to the rules. By the core rules psicrystals would gain feats, ability score increases, and skill points. In fact, if one of my players approached me asking if this was possible to do, I wouldn't think less of him. As Nephlite said, at least they bothered to read the rules. I have more trouble with players who intentionally do things outside the rules, which requires a lot of ad-hoc rulings which never come out the way they want them to. I don't mean making jump and tumble checks to swing from a chandalier, I mean stuff like "Ok, my sword is stabbed into him right? That must give him some penalties!", or trying to jump onto and ride enemies, and getting upset and wondering why they can't do it when the creature out grapples them. :( As a DM, I'm not afraid of psicrystals having feats. In fact, I wrote an alternative way to handle psicrystals for my players and have posted it and some relivant information on this very board. When I used the older psicrystal rules, my NPC psicrystals had feats (because HD + Int = feats, and skill points, of course), including villains. My players didn't complain about it, and I don't see why DMs should complain about it. If it's not fair because "familiars" don't get that, well then maybe you should "fix" your familiars. While your at it, maybe you should redo the druid and ranger's animal companions, 'cause it's different from the familiar as well. It's far from some sort of Pun Pun or super build. It's pretty cool in my humble oppinion. I don't think it's right for people do disrespect and insult people who have psicrystals with feats, implying that they are cheaters or in some way less of a gamer. That's pretty darn close to the Stormwind Fallacy IMO.
lears_fool 06-21-07, 08:05 PM	It's far from some sort of Pun Pun or super build. It's pretty cool in my humble oppinion. I don't think it's right for people do disrespect and insult people who have psicrystals with feats, implying that they are cheaters or in some way less of a gamer. That's pretty darn close to the Stormwind Fallacy IMO. Hmmm. . how to phrase this properly. The only thing I've got an issue with is the concept of interpreting something that's quite definitely NOT as intended as fact because it's 'RAW' (though I still see that interpretation as a bit of a hopeful stretch). Or, stated differently: Good:'hey, do you think I could do this. . I'm not sure it's what they intended but I think it'd be fun. I won't abuse it' Bad:'what do you mean I can't do this? It's RAW, of COURSE psicrystals get feats. It's been PROVEN!' If it's houseruled in or the DM goes for it. .then cool. I could see easily making it work. . or even making it fun. But there's a difference between asking for something that you know wasn't how it was intended and stating that 'it must be so'.
Bacris 06-21-07, 08:08 PM	Cut and Dry only by deliberately misinterpreting the intent. Because intent is always so easy to read. I mean seriously, the rules on what creatures get what feats has been around since 3.5 came out. XPH came out after PHB / DMG / MM was written. No errata was ever introduced. Only Cust Serv rulings have said it doesn't work. I'm sorry, but you seem to be saying that by reading the rules and going off the rules, we should automatically be able to ascertain intent of the designers. If psicrystal feats should behave the same as familiar feats, why not just use the same rules? Hell, the XPH has shown that they're willing to just copy and paste without considering the changes - psicrystals had new rules written on how their hit dice advance. Ergo, aside from Cust Serv communications, it's pretty easy to infer that it was, in fact, intended, and that such a belief is not "deliberately misinterpreting."
lears_fool 06-21-07, 08:37 PM	Ergo, aside from Cust Serv communications, it's pretty easy to infer that it was, in fact, intended, and that such a belief is not "deliberately misinterpreting." It's a reach. I'm not saying it wouldn't be a bad idea or a bad thing, but at the least it's a SELECTIVE interpretation, and that you either have to admit it's a pretty hazy or else ignore things that counter your argument. For example. .skill points. It states that non-mindless constructs gain gain skill points and feats as they gain hit dice. Yet the psicrystal skills section of the SRD/XPH contradicts this and gives them their 'masters' skill points. Next example . . logic. Psicrystals are 'part' of their master, they're not mindless but they're also not independent. It's not terribly logical that they'd gain open-ended feats that their master does not that aren't part of some predefined special abilities. Next example . . Cust Serv. Your proposal is apparently to ignore them if they disagree with you. Next example . . animal companions vs. familiars It's very explicitly stated that animal companions gain their own feats, skill points, and the like when they gain hit dice. It's equally clearly stated for the familiars that they do not, but they use their 'masters' saves and skill points, very much like the psicrystal's description. You have to make a deliberate effort to discount conflicting information to come to any firm belief that psicrystals get feats. I'm not saying that it wouldn't be neat. .I'm just saying that you have to be choosy in your interpretation, and there are plenty of arguments against it. Enough that stating it as fact is a wee bit of a stretch IMHO
Bacris 06-21-07, 08:51 PM	Ah, but it's not necessarily disagreeing with Cust Serv. Cust Serv has openly said that by the RAW, psicrystals gain feats. They have also said it was not intended. But the rules in the XPH are still there - no errata exists - and this is something that's come up for over a year... So, in a game where you look at the rules of constructs and the rules of psicrystals and come to realize "hey, that means they get feats" - unless you specifically contact Cust Serv, guess what, your interpretation is supported. Their skill points are an exception to the normal rules, hence they are called out - it's pretty rare to call out every rule if it works the way it normally does. For example, each skill entry doesn't specify that you have to pay for cross-class skill ranks at 2 points for 1 rank. If we expected every entry to call out exactly what it did when overarcing rules already covered it, our Core 3 would be an Encyclopedia Britannica. Again, my own psicrystal for my psion doesn't use feats - it hasn't really been something I want to develop - my first psicrystal often stole the spotlight from my kineticist, I want my ardent to be the main character in this game :p - but I'd allow it as a DM if a player used the rules as written on the subject.
Azzy 06-21-07, 09:00 PM	Jeez!!!! How many times does this dead horse have to be flogged. Here it is, laid out for everyone to see: If you like your interpretation RAW: Psicrystals gain feats. Don't bring your "intentions" into this, because it's strictly RAW--you can stop arguing now. If you like your interpretation RAI (by way of CustServ): Psicrystals don't gain feats. End of story. However.... If psicrystals are going to be treated like familiars and not have HD (and thus not gain feats), you need to add a few things to the Psicrystal Basics entry (see below) so that they do fall in line with the rules for familiars. Otherwise, they'll be brokenly weaker than the Wizard/Sorcerer's familiar and woefully unfair to the psionics player. Psicrystal Basics: Use the statistics for a psicrystal given on page 207, but make the following changes. Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master’s character level.* Hit Points: The psicrystal has one-half the master’s total hit points (not including temporary hit points), rounded down, regardless of its actual Hit Dice. Attacks: Use the master’s base attack bonus, as calculated from all his classes. Use the psicrystal’s Dexterity modifier to get its melee touch attack bonus when used to deliver touch powers.** Saving Throws: A psicrystal uses its owner’s base saving throw bonuses and ability modifiers on saves, though it doesn’t enjoy any other bonuses its owner might have (from magic items or feats, for example). Abilities: When its self-propulsion ability is not activated, a psicrystal has no Strength score and no Dexterity score. Skills: A psicrystal has the same skill ranks as its owner, except that it has a minimum of 4 ranks each in Spot, Listen, Move Silently, and Search. (Even if its owner has no ranks in these skills, a psicrystal has 4 ranks in each.) A psicrystal uses its own ability modifiers on skill checks. * While this may fly in the face of the psicrystal's monster entry that states "counting only levels in psion or wilder," or even the common house rule "counting only manifester levels." If psicrystals are going to be treated like familiars for HD purposes, then they should be treated the same as familiars for HD purposes (that is, all character levels count). ** Familiars use the higher of their Str or Dex. Psicrystals only have a Str of 1. Also, unlike familiars, psicrystals can't deal damage on melee attacks.
lears_fool 06-21-07, 10:54 PM	I'll not get into a huge RAW vs. RAI argument, honestly I see the pro-feat argument is being neither as there's clearly quite a bit of interpretation involved to come to any solid conclusion as. .as you've stated. . either way there are a couple of things missing. One thing that's wroth noting though. . * While this may fly in the face of the psicrystal's monster entry that states "counting only levels in psion or wilder," or even the common house rule "counting only manifester levels." If psicrystals are going to be treated like familiars for HD purposes, then they should be treated the same as familiars for HD purposes (that is, all character levels count). I'm not in the mood to delve into the SRD on the Wizards site, but the d20srd.org site states 'levels in psionic classes' rather than manifester levels or psion/wilder class levels. So that bit may either be errattaed or in the official SRD.
Azzy 06-21-07, 11:39 PM	I'm not in the mood to delve into the SRD on the Wizards site, but the d20srd.org site states 'levels in psionic classes' rather than manifester levels or psion/wilder class levels. So that bit may either be errattaed or in the official SRD. No, unfortunately it's still there in the monster entry for both the Hypertext D20 SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/psicrystal.htm) and the official SRD (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35). WotC needs to stop ignoring this problem (and other problems, like what happens when a psicrystal bites it--or all the other crap you see brought up time and again) and draw up an updated errata list for the XPH and introduce one for CPsi (hell, and the rest of their products) that actually addresses and corrects the problems that psionics players face in a fair in balanced manner.
Phalo 06-22-07, 12:16 AM	I am of the opinion that if a psicrystal would receive feats they would have to be feats the PC already has. It just seems odd to me for one to have feats. And as far as I know i didn't thing a Psicrystal has any attacks. I mean having the BAB of the psion/wilder is kinda silly if it can't bite scratch ect. I guess it could run into something. But then it is going to have to enter something square so thats a AOA and a person could smash it. It could get nasty quick. I wonder how it feels to have something you are psionically linked to be smashed and part of your personality destroyed. best nto to think of.
kyeudo 06-22-07, 12:53 AM	You can give a psicrystal attacks. Share Bite of the Wolf with one and it can attack.
Azzy 06-22-07, 12:53 AM	And as far as I know i didn't think a Psicrystal has any attacks. Starting at the 3rd manifester level, a psicrystal can deliver touch powers: Deliver Touch Powers (Su): If the owner is 3rd level or higher, his psicrystal can deliver touch powers for him. If the owner and psicrystal are in contact at the time the owner manifests a touch power, he can designate his psicrystal as the “toucher.” The psicrystal can then deliver the touch power just as the owner could. As usual, if the owner manifests another power before the touch is delivered, the touch power dissipates. Having a BAB that actually increases with level is necessary for this ability to be worthwhile (read: functional). If going by the RAW interpretation that allows for gaining feats, the psicrystal would also increase its BAB as its HD increased. However, going by the RAI interpretation, the psicrystal's BAB never increases from 0 unless you apply a fix like I did. I mean having the BAB of the psion/wilder is kinda silly if it can't bite scratch etc. I guess it could run into something. All creatures, psicrystals included, have an unarmed attack. Unfortunately, a psicrystal's unarmed attack causes no damage (because it's a Diminutive creature, the base unarmed attack damage is reduced below 1, see the DMG page 28). However, it can still deliver touch attack powers. Edit: According to the Monster Manual, page 296-297, should have a slam attack (for ramming into an opponent) that deals 1 -5 damage (minimum of 1 point damage). But then it is going to have to enter something square so thats a AOO and a person could smash it. Hence the natural armor adjustment ability of the psicrystal that increases with level. The psicrystal's AC starts out at 16 at 1st-level, and increases to 25 by 19th-level. Also, you can manifest buffs on the thing. It could get nasty quick. I wonder how it feels to have something you are psionicly linked to be smashed and part of your personality destroyed. best not to think of. I suppose it goes right up there with a wizard's familiar getting nixed.
AdventChild 06-22-07, 01:21 AM	Hmmm. . how to phrase this properly. The only thing I've got an issue with is the concept of interpreting something that's quite definitely NOT as intended as fact because it's 'RAW' (though I still see that interpretation as a bit of a hopeful stretch). Or, stated differently: Good:'hey, do you think I could do this. . I'm not sure it's what they intended but I think it'd be fun. I won't abuse it' Bad:'what do you mean I can't do this? It's RAW, of COURSE psicrystals get feats. It's been PROVEN!' If it's houseruled in or the DM goes for it. .then cool. I could see easily making it work. . or even making it fun. But there's a difference between asking for something that you know wasn't how it was intended and stating that 'it must be so'. Familiars were not intended to have feats and it clarifies that on their entry, animal companies were intended to have feats and it says so on their entry, however a psicrystal does not say, so what can you do? use logic... and what does logic tells us? hmmm psicrystals are constructs... lets read the construct entry... and what does it say?.... However, most constructs are mindless and gain no skill points or feats..... there for an int construct can gain feat. Examples are 3.0 MMII: Clockwork Horrors, Nimblewright. MMIII: Cadaver Collector. That is just to mention a few... so tell me again how exactly psicrytals not intended to have feats?
zuul88 06-22-07, 03:06 AM	*Nods in Respect to Azzy for his post* A Psicyrstal is Not a Famailar-like in any but the broadest sense. Sure a ship and a house are both built of wood and people reside in them for periods of time But they are fundamentally different things. A Psicrystal is Created not Summoned/Called, It is an extenstion of your personality which can have more then one aspect invested into it. Why when the Whole Psionics system is different then Magic are Psicrystals the same as familiars? Yes, InkBlot that is how my psicrystal is played now. I "indirectly" keep him on my shoulder(got a space built specificlly for him built into my plate) unless I send him with the rogue but that is only on a specific tactial purpose and he immediatly comes back. In the Psicrystal description itself it states Psionic Classes. That is ANY Base class, PrC, or Racial Paragon levels for a naturally psionic race. The text supercedes all other text or charts because it is in the Specific Description on psicrystals themselves. Hence why Psicrystals get the feats in the first place. My advice is to state it to your DM as a step by step process. That all intelligent creatures gets feats(True) and they quailfiy for feats as they advance in HD(True) That Psicrystals get feats(a little ahead but you need to state your hypothesis early, that way it frames exactly want you are pointing out. Everything example is true so it makes this statement true by completing the Proof) That Psicrystals HD advance per level as your character advances Psionic levels(True) Point out how the Psicrystal in the monsters chapter Has alertness as a feat(True and the clincher as far as my DM was concerned) You can arguably trade alertness out for another first level feat(Imp. Inti. anyone?) at that point. DO NOT ABUSE IT IF YOU GET IT!!!!!!!!!!!!! That means DO NOT GET GREEDY!! If you get it dont use your extra 5-7 feats building your uber-steal all the spotlight-burn yourself and those who come after you-PC. Shore up weaknesses, useful utility feats, stuff that are nice to have but your PC will still operate just as well without. It is only through abuse and explotation that you attract the DM disapproval. So if you use this advice use it smartly. Try not to enter the "my 3rd level Kineticist manifests a 7D6 energy missle" group. We have enough bad PR from people playing Psionics like idiots. Respect Nathan
Racinante 06-22-07, 03:00 PM	Next example . . logic. Psicrystals are 'part' of their master, they're not mindless but they're also not independent. It's not terribly logical that they'd gain open-ended feats that their master does not that aren't part of some predefined special abilities. A compromise that may satisfy, to some extent, both sides of the argument would be that psicrystals share their masters feats, but still must meet the pre-reqs to gain the benefit.
Slagger the Chuul 06-23-07, 12:33 AM	If you like your interpretation RAW: Psicrystals gain feats. Don't bring your "intentions" into this, because it's strictly RAW--you can stop arguing now. Now, from my perspective, there's this part. Psicrystal Basics: Use the statistics for a psicrystal given on page 207, but make the following changes. The standard description does not make any exception for feats, which leaves them with exactly what the statblock includes. The statistics for a psicrystal say that the feat it has is Alertness, and that's all. It doesn't have a normal feat advancement (despite being an intelligent construct) because it's restricted to the psicrystal statistics in the book. In fact, pretty much everything about the psicrystal is nonstandard, being built of roughly equal parts fixed statistics and special psicrystal exceptions. Of course, it's created by giving a pet rock a piece of your mind, so nonstandard is to be expected.
Lokiyn 06-23-07, 01:54 AM	Now that is one of the sillier arguments i've heard, Lets look at that again A psicrystal is the artificial externalization of a small portion of a psionic character’s consciousness. It is found only as the creation and companion of a psion, wilder, or character with similar abilities. The psicrystal described here is that of a 1st-level manifester. Now as a first level manifester, the psicrystal would have one hit dice, and if it did not gain feats, it would have no feats. Lo and behold what does the psicrystal have? 1 feat Exactly as a 1 HD intelligent construct would have. And before anyone brings it up no this isn't from the alertness special quality Alertness (Ex): The presence of a psicrystal sharpens its master’s senses. While a psicrystal is within arm’s reach (adjacent to or in the same square as its owner), its owner gains the Alertness feat.
Azzy 06-23-07, 02:13 AM	Now, from my perspective, there's this part. The standard description does not make any exception for feats, which leaves them with exactly what the statblock includes. However, it doesn't have to. Unlike the sorcerer/wizard's familiar entry which states "For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s normal HD total, whichever is higher," the psicrystal's entry has nothing of the sort. Instead, the only thing stated in regards to a psicrystal's HD are "Hit Dice: As master’s HD (hp 1/2 master’s)" and "Its Hit Dice are equal to its master’s Hit Dice (counting only levels in psion or wilder)." There is nothing noted that this HD is solely "for the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice" as the familar's entry does. Without any text to say otherwise, the logical course is to treat this intelligent construct as any other creature (barring the exceptions that are specifically called out). Thus, a psicrystal has HD. As its HD increases, it gains the benefits of an intelligent construct of its HD size--feats and all. If a psicrystal doesn't gain the benefit of its HD, it should be explicitly noted because that is an exception to the normal rules concerning intelligent constructs specifically, and creatures in general. That said, I don't care if they gain feats or not.* I'm just pointing out that in a strict reading of the rules, and applying those rules in a consistent manner leads to the strict and logical conclusion that psicrystals gain feats (and other benefits for having HD). * Although if psicrystals don't gain the benefits of HD, that need to be fixed in a manner similar to what I presented in an earlier post. Fair is fair, after all.
Zarreth_Nessad 06-23-07, 02:42 AM	Sorry to be a spoil sport, here, but RAW the Psicrystal does not gain any feats, and any ideas otherwise are just wishful thinking. While it may not come out and specify that the Psicrystal does not get any feats from HD, it does specify everything that it does get. This is all clearly listed under Psicrystal Basics on pg 22 of the XPH. It gets Saving Throw modifications, Skill modifications, and the level dependent Psicrystal Special Abilities listed in the table. Otherwise it is as the stats for a psicrystal as given on pg 207. I agree with Nephlite that it is better to have players read the rules, but they need to read all the rules in relation to what they are trying to do, like playing a wizard and reading the sidebar on Familiars.
Suldarr'essalar 06-23-07, 03:33 AM	Sorry to be a spoil sport, here, but RAW the Psicrystal does not gain any feats, and any ideas otherwise are just wishful thinking. While it may not come out and specify that the Psicrystal does not get any feats from HD, it does specify everything that it does get. This is all clearly listed under Psicrystal Basics on pg 22 of the XPH. It gets Saving Throw modifications, Skill modifications, and the level dependent Psicrystal Special Abilities listed in the table. Otherwise it is as the stats for a psicrystal as given on pg 207.Uhh...No. The description specifies the changes between a normal construct and a psicrystal. It is clearly stated that "A psicrystal is treated as a construct for the purposes of all effects that depend on its type." A construct gains (apart from other things) BAB, Saving throws, hit points, skill points (if intelligent), and feats (if intelligent). Now, the description of psicrystal says, that that psicrystals saving throws are the same as it's masters, and he has the same ranks in skills as his master, and half of his hit points. So, from the construct type he still gets BAB, and feats.
DM-Scott 06-23-07, 03:43 AM	The description specifies the changes between a normal construct and a psicrystal. It is clearly stated that "A psicrystal is treated as a construct for the purposes of all effects that depend on its type." A construct gains (apart from other things) BAB, Saving throws, hit points, skill points (if intelligent), and feats (if intelligent). Now, the description of psicrystal says, that that psicrystals saving throws are the same as it's masters, and he has the same ranks in skills as his master, and half of his hit points. So, from the construct type he still gets BAB, and feats. This is logical, and correct. It is actually a larger stretch of logic and interpretation to suggest psicrystals would not gain feats. It's just plain ignoring the rules.
Azzy 06-23-07, 03:45 AM	Sorry to be a spoil sport, here, but RAW the Psicrystal does not gain any feats, and any ideas otherwise are just wishful thinking. Bold words. But words garnered from hubris rather than from the rules, an understanding of the rules, or from logic. While it may not come out and specify that the Psicrystal does not get any feats from HD, it does specify everything that it does get. This is all clearly listed under Psicrystal Basics on pg 22 of the XPH. It gets Saving Throw modifications, Skill modifications, and the level dependent Psicrystal Special Abilities listed in the table. Otherwise it is as the stats for a psicrystal as given on pg 207. Wrong. If there is an exception to the existing rules (eg, psicrystals do not gain the normal benefits of HD as normal intelligent constructs with HD would), then the rules must clearly establish the exception. I agree with Nephlite that it is better to have players read the rules, but they need to read all the rules in relation to what they are trying to do, like playing a wizard and reading the sidebar on Familiars. The familiars entry has nothing to do with psicrystals. If psicrystals were meant to behave in the same manner as familiars, the psicrystal entry would use the same language as familiars and would have the same entries (HD, HP, Attacks) that I added in a previous post.
Zarreth_Nessad 06-23-07, 03:59 AM	I'm just quoting the books. Logic is all I present. I quote the book and you disagree with me, that's your problem, not mine. And the reference to familiars was a reference to people reading all the rules. I was not trying to compare familiars to psicrystals.
DM-Scott 06-23-07, 04:14 AM	I'm just quoting the books. Logic is all I present. I quote the book and you disagree with me, that's your problem, not mine. I have a question: What books are you quoting, and please explain to me the logic you present, because I am apparently missing it. If you can quote the book to me, and make a good/valid/logical point, then I won't disagree with you. I will look at any evidence, and if it is strong then I will aggree with you, because as a person I have the power to change my mind instead of assuming pre-programmed activity. :D Please show me some evidence, 'cause I do wish to know. Peace out, Game on.
Zarreth_Nessad 06-23-07, 04:38 AM	Quotes are from the XPH. The Logic is Logic, there is no explanation for something that defines itself. A psicrystal is treated as a construct for the purposes of all effects that depend on its type Psicrystal Basics: Use the statistics for a psicrystal as given on pg 207, but make the following changes. It goes on to specify Saving Throw changes, Ability specifications (for self-propulsion), and Skills changes. Under Construct Type in the Glossary of the Monster Manual I, v3.5, no mention is made of feats. Feats are not an "effect that depends on its type", though many other things are, like being immune to various effects, etc.
zuul88 06-23-07, 04:42 AM	This as bad as a "psoinycs R soooo Brokeen!!!!!!!!" thread. On one side you have the people quoting the SRD and XPH, talking about overarcing governing rules. On the others you have the "It doesnt say they gain feats" people. They will adamitly deny every piece of logic and reason w/o adding anything of value but eyes wide shut refusal. Just my 1 PP. Respect Nathan
DM-Scott 06-23-07, 04:47 AM	Under Construct Type in the Glossary of the Monster Manual I, v3.5, no mention is made of feats. Feats are not an "effect that depends on its type", though many other things are, like being immune to various effects, etc. Hmmm. Good point. I'll keep this in mind. I do have another question though. :thinks: The creature's type determines its HD, and its HD determines HP / BAB / Saves / Skills / Feats. However... It goes on to specify Saving Throw changes, Ability specifications (for self-propulsion), and Skills changes As you say it gives specific changes to HP, Saves, and Skill changes. However it doesn't say anything about BAB / Feats. Since the HD type it gains is Construct, then wouldn't it logically progress as a construct except where otherwise noted? Ok, that's it for my questions for now. I eagerly await your answer good sir. :detect:
Zarreth_Nessad 06-23-07, 04:48 AM	I don't think Psionics are broken, unless you omit key rules. If a DM thinks it isn't broken for a psicrystal to have feats, that's his choice. This isn't so critical of a thing as to break the game in my opinion. I'm just tired of seeing people argue about it when the book is actually clear on it, regardless of the many people trying to read between lines that don't exist. Just my own PP.
DM-Scott 06-23-07, 04:49 AM	Heh, we apparently all were posting at the same time. lol
Zarreth_Nessad 06-23-07, 04:54 AM	Hmmm. Good point. I'll keep this in mind. I do have another question though. :thinks: The creature's type determines its HD, and its HD determines HP / BAB / Saves / Skills / Feats. However... As you say it gives specific changes to HP, Saves, and Skill changes. However it doesn't say anything about BAB / Feats. Since the HD type it gains is Construct, then wouldn't it logically progress as a construct except where otherwise noted? Ok, that's it for my questions for now. I eagerly await your answer good sir. :detect: In this case, the creature type doesn't determine its HD, its owner's HD does. Same with HP. See stat block on pg 207. BAB is specified under the Construct Type as being reliant on the HD, so as the master's HD go up, so too does the Psicrystal's BAB. Saves & Skills are as master, and are specified under the psicrystal basics section as stated previously. Feats are as specified in the stats block.
Witch 06-23-07, 04:57 AM	Rai is as meaningless to me as what the designers had for breakfast when they were making the wererat entry. We dont really have a way of knowing and since it isnt written down we shouldnt really care. Errata fixes all of these problems without having to guess. Bullcrap. Errata is something that just doesn't happen any more. Even if we can't be absolutely certain of designer's intent, it's quite obvious what was the intent here. If it's meaningless to you - fine by me. Have it your way. I try to take the designer's intention into account when I use stuff. The same goes for when I design stuff. I try to keep loopholes out, but sometimes, they just happen, and I expect people to take my intention into account then.
zuul88 06-23-07, 05:02 AM	I don't think Psionics are broken, unless you omit key rules. Didnt say it was. I was just comparing the "debate" on this thread is on the same intellectual level as one of those threads. Did anybody get the horrific spelling or am I living in my own little world? Well I do live in my own little world and need help to communicate with others. Respect Nathan
Scion of Coldshard 06-23-07, 05:04 AM	Bullcrap. colorful. Useless, but colorful. Errata is something that just doesn't happen any more. Oh? Even if we can't be absolutely certain of designer's intent, it's quite obvious what was the intent here. Says you. If you can travel through time and read minds that is great, but most of us do not have those abilities. I try to take the designer's intention into account when I use stuff. Good thing you have those magical abilities that allow you to somehow know what the intent was at the time. That must be really nice. A gift and a curse?
Witch 06-23-07, 05:58 AM	colorful. Useless, but colorful. Oh? Says you. If you can travel through time and read minds that is great, but most of us do not have those abilities. Good thing you have those magical abilities that allow you to somehow know what the intent was at the time. That must be really nice. A gift and a curse? Not really. Assumptions. I don't know anything with certainty. I assume the probable. If someone says "Good day" to me on a sunny day with a friendly face, I will assume he means it. I will not assume he's being sarcastic. If he does the same thing on a stormy day, with a sad grin, I will assume he's being sarcastic. I don't need to be able to read minds to do that. My assumptions are actually expected and relevant. It requires no magical abilities. It is, actually, something even the dumbest people with no significant ability of any kind can do.
DM-Scott 06-23-07, 06:15 AM	In this case, the creature type doesn't determine its HD, its owner's HD does. Same with HP. See stat block on pg 207. BAB is specified under the Construct Type as being reliant on the HD, so as the master's HD go up, so too does the Psicrystal's BAB. Saves & Skills are as master, and are specified under the psicrystal basics section as stated previously. Feats are as specified in the stats block. Ok...I admit it...I'm really confused. :weep: Ok, so you're saying that the psicrystal is effectively the construct type. This I understand. You also point out that the psicrystal's BAB increases as per the construct's HD progression (a part of its type). I know the XPH doesn't say it does, but I'll trust you on this. However, I'm confused as why feats don't do this as well. They aren't mentioned either in the XPH, just like the BAB. So going by the construct thing, and what it specifically says about increasing hit dice: "As its Hit Dice increase, a creature’s attack bonuses and saving throw modifiers might improve. It gains more feats and skills, depending on its type, as shown on Table: Creature Improvement by Type." - SRD / 3.5 MM pg. 291 Also... "All monsters have a number of feats equal to 1 + (1 per 3 HD). Monsters must meet the prerequisites for feats, just as characters must. If your creature concept begs for a feat for which the creature does not qualify, consider altering the creature so that it qualifies for the feat, or assign the feat as a bonus feat." - 3.5 MM, pg. 301 Could you please explain how this is different? I know a psicrystal is just as much a monster as everything else in the monster manual (including races) and is in the monster entry in the XPH. All of the arguments that psicrystals gain feats fit with these, but the base attack / feat things confuses me on the alternative. Can you explain it to me a bit further, please? :bigeyes:
Zarreth_Nessad 06-23-07, 08:14 AM	The Base attack bonus is mentioned in the Construct Type as one of it's features, is not overridden by the psicrystal entry, and depends on the creature's HD, which IS overridden by being the Master's HD. Feats are not covered under the Construct Type. Feats are a general rule that is not dependent on the creature type, and is not an effect of the creature type. The Psicrystal rules refer to the Construct Type for effects, and details everything else that changes from the base stats block. Psicrystals are not normal creatures that follow normal creature progression. They are part of a Psion's (or other manifester's) being, an extension of his will. Since everything about progressing a psicrystal is specified under psicrystal basics, feats are not part of it's progression.
zuul88 06-23-07, 08:24 AM	At first I was going to be irratated that you could come so close to grasping the point and then miss it. Then I saw you are a Cerebramancer. It all became clear. So So Close but just off. Course you can take a feat to have your Psicrystal impanted in your little furry ball of XP. Remember when your Psicrystal dies as a free action he reforms whole and unharmed with no penalty to you. It doesnt specify what happens, right? Respect Nathan
Slagger the Chuul 06-23-07, 08:45 AM	In this case, the creature type doesn't determine its HD, its owner's HD does. Same with HP. See stat block on pg 207. BAB is specified under the Construct Type as being reliant on the HD, so as the master's HD go up, so too does the Psicrystal's BAB. Saves & Skills are as master, and are specified under the psicrystal basics section as stated previously. Feats are as specified in the stats block. Actually BAB, feats, and anything else not given a special exception is exactly as listed in the statistics block, including feats. Wrong. If there is an exception to the existing rules (eg, psicrystals do not gain the normal benefits of HD as normal intelligent constructs with HD would), then the rules must clearly establish the exception. They do. That's what saying that the psicrystal uses those statistics means. It behaves exactly according to the normal rules, except that the statistics it has (except where otherwise noted) are as they appear in the statistics block. The notation of "Alertness" replaces the feat selection it would normally gain in exactly the same way that the notation of "hp ½ master’s" replaces the normal hit points it would gain from construct Hit Dice. The base statistics may have been designed using the normal rules for an intelligent construct, but now they're the statistics a psicrystal always uses (except where changes are noted). That's according to a strict reading of the rules.
Fafnir 06-23-07, 10:56 AM	At first I was going to be irratated that you could come so close to grasping the point and then miss it. Then I saw you are a Cerebramancer. It all became clear. So So Close but just off. Course you can take a feat to have your Psicrystal impanted in your little furry ball of XP. Remember when your Psicrystal dies as a free action he reforms whole and unharmed with no penalty to you. It doesnt specify what happens, right? Respect Nathan :confused: What are you talking about? There's a Psicrystal/Familiar gestalt feat? Where?
Bacris 06-23-07, 11:37 AM	You can't have it both ways - either the psicrystal's BAB advances as is standard for its Hit Dice, as does its number of feats, or both stay exactly as presented in the psicrystal stat block example for a 1st level manifester. And by the way, the feats progression is an overarcing rule for all creatures - it doesn't have to be called out for just constructs. The fact of the matter is that the rules even specify it is treated as its own creature - therey making the rules for creatures govern the psicrystal - except when noted otherwise. Picking and choosing which follows standard cosntruct / creature rules and which don't doesn't work.
Azzy 06-23-07, 12:15 PM	They do. That's what saying that the psicrystal uses those statistics means. It behaves exactly according to the normal rules, except that the statistics it has (except where otherwise noted) are as they appear in the statistics block. The notation of "Alertness" replaces the feat selection it would normally gain in exactly the same way that the notation of "hp ½ master’s" replaces the normal hit points it would gain from construct Hit Dice. OH RLY? Objection! (http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=2023504) Um, exactly how did you come to that stretch of logic? Awareness is listed in the monster entry's stat block, the same as it would be for any other creature. Where does it state anywhere or imply that Awareness isn't simply a feat that the psicrystal gains because of its HD? Right, nowhere. In order to draw that conclusion, you have to create an exception that is not specifically called out.
Lokiyn 06-23-07, 02:15 PM	Elan 1st-Level Warrior Medium Aberration (Psionic) Hit Dice: 1d8+1 (5 hp) Initiative: +0 Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares) Armor Class: 14 (+3 studded leather, +1 light shield), touch 10, flat-footed 14 Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+2 Attack: Warhammer +3 melee (1d8+1/×3) or longbow +1 ranged (1d8/×3) Full Attack: Warhammer +3 melee (1d8+1/×3) or longbow +1 ranged (1d8/×3) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: — Special Qualities: Repletion, resilience, resistance Saves: Fort +3, Ref +0, Will –1 Abilities: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 6 Skills: Climb +3, Jump +3 Feats: Weapon Focus (warhammer) Environment: Any Challenge Rating: 1/2 Treasure: Standard Alignment: Usually neutral Advancement: By character class Level Adjustment: +0 Just to point out, All elans must have weapon focus (warhammer) as thier first level feat as well......... Or we can look on page 7 of the monster manual, Reading the Monster Entry The Line gives the creature's Feats. A monster gains feats just as a character does - one for its first hit dice, a second if it has at least 3 hit dice, and an additional feat for each additional three hit dice. (For example a Nine HD creature has four feats) Now what Slugger seems to be suggesting is that the monster entry for a psicrystal has this Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript B (B), Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for this feat, if this is so the creature can still use the feat. Which would mean that the alterness feat is an exception rather than the rule. In Actuality nothing forces Psicrystals to take alertness any more than Elans are forced to take Weapon Focus (Warhammer)
lears_fool 06-23-07, 02:37 PM	You can't have it both ways - either the psicrystal's BAB advances as is standard for its Hit Dice, as does its number of feats, or both stay exactly as presented in the psicrystal stat block example for a 1st level manifester. Actually, that's a pretty serious false dichotomy. It could be (and is) that the psycrystal, like all the other creature companions (animal companion, familiar) is an exception with it's on special rules. You're excluding the middle in an argument ABOUT the middle. And by the way, the feats progression is an overarcing rule for all creatures - it doesn't have to be called out for just constructs. The fact of the matter is that the rules even specify it is treated as its own creature - therey making the rules for creatures govern the psicrystal - except when noted otherwise. Again, you seem to be ignoring cases in which this is not true (i.e familars). In fact it is exceedingly likely that psicrystals were intended to function like familiars from a hit dice standpoint. That they are TREATED as if they had the same hit dice as the master rather than actually gaining independent hit dice. And using the familar as a template pretty much answers all the other questions (BAB, etc.) as well. And at the very least, it's been stated repeatedly that psicrystals weren't intended to be leveling and gaining feats by CustServ and beyond. A good player should be concerned about the intent rather than milking out every advantage he can. Really, the fact that this argument comes up at all (and people are taking it seriously) probably is one of the things that gives psionics a bad reputation. It looks very much like deliberate rules-lawyering in your favor even though you very well know what the point was. I'm not saying that's what people who agree with the psicrystals-get-feats side are thinking, but that's sure what it looks like.
Azzy 06-23-07, 02:57 PM	Again, you seem to be ignoring cases in which this is not true (i.e familars). *sigh* The familiar entry explicitly states "For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s normal HD total, whichever is higher." Familiars do not have HD beyond their normal HD total (as listed in their creature entry in the MM), but for the sake of effects (say spells like color spray, for instance) that vary based on the target's HD the familiar uses its own HD (as per its creature entry) or its master's character level (which ever is higher). In fact it is exceedingly likely that psicrystals were intended to function like familiars from a hit dice standpoint. That's inference, not RAW, though. It's not even inference based on the pertinent RAW. As said previously--I don't care if they gain feats or not (though see my previous proviso), but I am arguing from a strict RAW viewpoint. If you don't like the RAW viewpoint, feel free to go with the RAI (by way of CustServ) viewpoint. However, do not claim that the RAW do not support feat acquisition--because they do.
Lokiyn 06-23-07, 02:58 PM	Thats a pretty silly argument, If psicrystals didn't get feats, there is an incredible amount of material that supports the opposite. Thier very entry in the manual explicitly grants them feats. Familiars are regular creatures with extra abilities. The psicrystal is a unique creature much like a golem or other artificial creature. They are not familiars in any way. Also as another point, Familiars also get feats, if they have the hit dice to support them. The real issue is not "feat" The real issue is Hit dice Psicrystals and animal companions gain hit dice with thier masters abilities. Familiars do not. I could say that In fact it is exceedingly likely that psicrystals were intended to function like Animal Companions from a hit dice standpoint. That they gain hit dice as if they had the same hit dice as the master rather than just being treated as such. And using the companion as a template pretty much answers all the other questions (BAB, etc.) as well.
Bacris 06-23-07, 03:08 PM	Actually, that's a pretty serious false dichotomy. It could be (and is) that the psycrystal, like all the other creature companions (animal companion, familiar) is an exception with it's on special rules. You're excluding the middle in an argument ABOUT the middle. Except that if its own special rules don't specify what to do, you use the default rules. That in and of itself seems pretty straightforward. If the creature's special rules don't say how its skills or BAB or saves work, then it uses the normal rules presented for that type of creature. Expecting that because the rules don't specify exceptions that it therefore doesn't use any rules at all seems to be pretty ludicrous.
lears_fool 06-23-07, 05:03 PM	Except that if its own special rules don't specify what to do, you use the default rules. That in and of itself seems pretty straightforward. If the creature's special rules don't say how its skills or BAB or saves work, then it uses the normal rules presented for that type of creature. Expecting that because the rules don't specify exceptions that it therefore doesn't use any rules at all seems to be pretty ludicrous. So a choice is made, between what has been stated is INTENDED and what is essentially a technicality. Given how psionics is generally underappreciated, I'm going to lean heavily towards intent. No matter how you look at it, it's not what was intended. Because if someone comes to me with a non-psionic character and says 'I decided to do it this way because even though it's not what they say they intended it's techincally correct' then their only chance is if they're very clear they wont' let it unbalance things and it's merely a request.
Scion of Coldshard 06-23-07, 05:06 PM	How about, 'the rules say to do X and since it is not overpowered or underpowered I am going to do what the rules say'?
lears_fool 06-23-07, 05:12 PM	By the way. .I feel the need to make something clear here. I think Psionics gets a bad rep, a largely undeserved one it's true. I also think it's pretty much the best mechanically and most flavorful system in the game. And. .here's the rub. . part of the bad reputation I think has been EARNED. Similarly to what we saw with Tome of Battle. Earned by people being heavy on the munchkin/powergamer and eking out every ounce of power (and sometimes creatively interpreting things) with the goal being to be most 'uber'. Add that to the 'DBZ/Naruto syndrome' and you end up with DMs who end up saying 'screw it' and banning it outright. And this, while not truly munchkiny (I could see abusing it, but I can also see making it flavorful and balanced), falls into a 'danger' category for me. .especially when you look at the first post where someone's upset because they didn't get it. Because it is not what the creators intended and also can contradict the flavor text of the psycrystal (i.e. that they're splinters of the psions personality). I'm not so much arguing against the possibility of the interpretation, but the wisdom of it. But if you're in a campaign or with a group that's unhesitatingly cool with this interpretation, then there's nothing wrong there at all and my argument can be disregarded neatly :)
Wizard Random 06-23-07, 05:15 PM	As a dm I find it hard to be convinced of it. In my opinion, there should not be such a huge difference between familiars and psicrystal. Psions have to burn a feat to get a psicrystal while wizards get their's for free. Why shouldn't a psicrystal be better than a familiar?
Scion of Coldshard 06-23-07, 05:24 PM	Earned by people being heavy on the munchkin/powergamer and eking out every ounce of power (and sometimes creatively interpreting things) with the goal being to be most 'uber'. And since people do this with every part of the system psionics gets the bad rep.... why? Psionics isnt even the most abuseable part, but when people abuse other parts of the system it is ignored while if anyone abuses psionics suddenly the whole thing is bad... I would have to say that there is something very, very wrong with that sort of mentality.
lears_fool 06-23-07, 06:26 PM	And since people do this with every part of the system psionics gets the bad rep.... why? Psionics isnt even the most abuseable part, but when people abuse other parts of the system it is ignored while if anyone abuses psionics suddenly the whole thing is bad... I would have to say that there is something very, very wrong with that sort of mentality. I think abusing any part of the system is wrong, and any similar attempt to choose to interpret away from intent (or in other cases common sense and/or balance) and towards power-by-the-rules-lawyer as a bad thing, and one I'd frown on as a DM or as a player. I don't think it's 'wrong' that the less common and less familiar a DM is with a system the more likely they are to look at any creative interpretation with a raised eyebrow though. If you know the system well then you're going to be more comfortable adjudicating it. It's a little tragic, but not unfair or unexpected.
lears_fool 06-23-07, 06:27 PM	Psions have to burn a feat to get a psicrystal while wizards get their's for free. Why shouldn't a psicrystal be better than a familiar? Sorcerers can make that same argument
aotrscommander 06-23-07, 06:56 PM	Sorcerers can make that same argument Keh? Sorcerers get Summon Familiar as a free class feature too. (Actually, their only class feature...)
lears_fool 06-23-07, 07:10 PM	Keh? Sorcerers get Summon Familiar as a free class feature too. (Actually, their only class feature...) D'oh, see, this is what happens when you get back from a 3.non-x game, it gets all confuddled :) I stand corrected.
Scion of Coldshard 06-23-07, 07:37 PM	I think abusing any part of the system is wrong, and any similar attempt to choose to interpret away from intent (or in other cases common sense and/or balance) and towards power-by-the-rules-lawyer as a bad thing, and one I'd frown on as a DM or as a player. Abusing the system is bad, but I dont see how psicrystals getting feats is abusing anything. Plus, we have no way of knowing real intent. We can ask the designers what they feel that their intent was now, but that doesnt mean that their minds havent changed and so the 'intent' changed as well. In this case, whoever made the writeup for the psicrystal may very well have intended for them to get feats but the wotc help line was called and asked, not the guy who made it originally. Common sense is also anything but, people just dont share the same ideas on what common sense is. All we have are the rules to go by for a baseline and then we houserule things to make sense for our own version of common sense and gaming style. By the RAW psicrystals get feats, and so far I have seen so little way to abuse this while also there being so many ways to have fun with it than I simply cannot bring myself to deny the option. I dont even know why anyone would deny the option.. it just isnt that powerful.
zuul88 06-23-07, 09:36 PM	PSicRISAL c ANT G3t fEEts!?!"!!{!!<!! tHat WOuLD maKe psYINCs bEateR ThEN mAGIk wHIcH nO D3IsgNER wouLd EvER iNTEnD. nEEVR nvEER((( On a side note How can anyone type like that ^ ? Took me ten minutes to type that bad but I see 1 in 10 people never type any other way.:confused: :confused: What are you talking about? There's a Psicrystal/Familiar gestalt feat? Where? Honestly, "maybe" it was something I saw from Dragon. I do not think I invisioned it just to rib on someone for being a Cerebramancer. I could have but ripping on a cereb is so easy I doubt I would have wasted the creativity. I will check and see though. Just for you Faf.;) Respect Nathan
brothersutek 06-23-07, 10:09 PM	Psions have to burn a feat to get a psicrystal while wizards get their's for free. Why shouldn't a psicrystal be better than a familiar? +++ THANK YOU! :cheer: +++ I personally allow the feat progression when I DM while my current DM does not. Meh not a big deal I understand his dislike of it and he understands that if a psicrystal should be a familar then i don't have to burn a feat to get one. Houserules to the rescue :dancin: but even if he didn't change that for me then I still wouldn't ***** (much :bigeyes: ) his game his houserules, my game... you get the point. I prefer to read the rules and follow them. The powers that be give me a clear answer on this an "offical answer" that is I'll follow it until then make mine RAW. :waits:
Slagger the Chuul 06-23-07, 11:46 PM	Awareness is listed in the monster entry's stat block, the same as it would be for any other creature. Where does it state anywhere or imply that Awareness isn't simply a feat that the psicrystal gains because of its HD? . It doesn't. The psicrystal listed in the statistics block gains it as a normal feat. The reason psicrystals in actual play don't gain anything else is that the statistics given are then used as a template for every other psicrystal in existence. That's what the rules say. We are given a number of changes to make to those statistics, but there is no change made to feats, so every psicrystal has Alertness. If you change the psicrystal statistics given in any way except those described in the psicrystal section earlier in the book (including normal advancement), then you're not following the RAW. Psicrystals just don't use normal advancement (and therefore don't gain more than Alertness) because we're told to use a specific set of statistics, and those statistics don't change.
BloodSpill 06-23-07, 11:51 PM	Psicrystals are already better than familiars. By the way. .I feel the need to make something clear here. I think Psionics gets a bad rep, a largely undeserved one it's true. I also think it's pretty much the best mechanically and most flavorful system in the game. And. .here's the rub. . part of the bad reputation I think has been EARNED. Similarly to what we saw with Tome of Battle. Earned by people being heavy on the munchkin/powergamer and eking out every ounce of power (and sometimes creatively interpreting things) with the goal being to be most 'uber'. Add that to the 'DBZ/Naruto syndrome' and you end up with DMs who end up saying 'screw it' and banning it outright. I feel I must second this. Only one DM has been willing to give v3.5 psionics a chance and I feel I really shouldn't be abusing it to the point that everyone thinks I'm a munchkin again. :P
Lokiyn 06-23-07, 11:52 PM	And part of those changes is the addition of hit dice. The addition of Hit dice grant feats.
Suldarr'essalar 06-24-07, 01:21 AM	And part of those changes is the addition of hit dice. The addition of Hit dice grant feats. Does it also grant +1/4hd to any stat?
Scion of Coldshard 06-24-07, 01:25 AM	Does it also grant +1/4hd to any stat? See now that is a fun question! Psicrystals do get extra int as their manifesting buddy gets better so I could see someone claiming that the int increase overrides the normal increase every 4 hd, but since it doesnt say that is what it is doing I could see the other arguement being made as well. I give mine the stat increase ;)
Razor767 06-24-07, 01:42 AM	*sighs* The solution to this is really rather simple. player: Does my psicrystal get feats and HD progression? DM: No. player: But according to RAW, it says it does. DM: I know. It still doesn't get them. player: But that's not fair! DM: *smiles and gestures to the door* The reasons for these arguments are often because someone can't let it go until the need to "feel" right is satisfied. Just realize that no one needs to be right. This doesn't HAVE to be solved. Leave it to the DM and the players at his table. Peace.
Scion of Coldshard 06-24-07, 02:06 AM	Interesting simple solution there.. let me pose another simple solution: player: What is my wizards BAB progression? DM: None. player: But according to RAW, it says the wizard gets poor progression. DM: I know. It still doesn't get it. player: But that's not fair! DM: *smiles and gestures to the door* player: Yeah, I think I will take that door. Anyone else here want to get into a real game? I am not saying that having no feats for the psicrystal will cause someone to leave the game, and the dm definately does have ulitimate power over what rules will and will not be used and how in his game. Rule 0 is all well and good, just know when you are applying it and have a logical reason as to why. Treating players and dms with respect is a pretty important aspect of this social situation.
Tsuul 06-24-07, 02:20 AM	Anyone ever do a comparison of the psicrystal feat and the leadership feat?
Razor767 06-24-07, 02:31 AM	Of course it can all be taken a step further player: Does my psicrystal get feats and HD progression? DM: No. player: But according to RAW, it says it does. DM: I know. It still doesn't get them. player: But that's not fair! DM: *smiles and gestures to the door* player: Yeah, I think I will take that door. Anyone else here want to get into a real game? rest of the players: Nope, we don't leave perfectly good games because we don't get our way on one minor issue. The point I was trying to make here is whether it's RAW or RAI is irrelevent. It's up to the GM what rules he allows. Personally, as a DM, I would fall on the RAW side but my post isn't about arguing in favor of one or the other. It's about the pointless arguing that serves absolutely no purpose at all. None, when it comes down to running a session.
Scion of Coldshard 06-24-07, 02:53 AM	The point I was trying to make here is whether it's RAW or RAI is irrelevent. It's up to the GM what rules he allows. Personally, as a DM, I would fall on the RAW side but my post isn't about arguing in favor of one or the other. It's about the pointless arguing that serves absolutely no purpose at all. None, when it comes down to running a session. I agree that it is up to the DM, but this is a message board discussing rules, rules implications, and house rules. Knowing what the rules are and what those rules do and where they fail is really important here! ;) Whatever the DM will decide is actually a completely seperate issue. Every DM is different so we need some common ground to stand on.. which basically amounts to RAW. In a game the DM is all important, on the boards RAW is all important. I am not sure that RAI is ever important though..
Scion of Coldshard 06-24-07, 02:54 AM	Anyone ever do a comparison of the psicrystal feat and the leadership feat? What about them would you like to compare? I will help if I can, but I am at a bit of a loss as to where to even begin... the Leadership feat just has so many more options and so much more power...
Razor767 06-24-07, 03:14 AM	I agree that it is up to the DM, but this is a message board discussing rules, rules implications, and house rules. Knowing what the rules are and what those rules do and where they fail is really important here! ;) Whatever the DM will decide is actually a completely seperate issue. Every DM is different so we need some common ground to stand on.. which basically amounts to RAW. In a game the DM is all important, on the boards RAW is all important. I am not sure that RAI is ever important though.. Point taken. I think that makes alot of sense, actually. On a forum, all that can really be proven or established is RAW. RAI... well one reads intent as one will. Sure, you'll have select people agree with each other and argue logic until the wombats come home, but it's a subjective logic. It's a subjective interpretation of intent who's only purpose is to support the arguer's firmly held belief. Merely calling it logical fails to prove it is so. Only RAW can prove anything. And that's what it boils down to. RAW against Belief. Belief equates loosely to faith, and faith by definition deals with that which cannot be proven. Perhaps it's easy to point a finger at someone using the rules literally and call them a munchkin/min-max'r. But often the case isn't that someone is trying to wring every dribble of power out that they can. They're usually working to create a viable, capable character. Or to put things more succinctly, one that doesn't suck. RAW is what it is. I remember reading once that whenever a new WotC product comes out, it trumps previously published rules. I think it was on a Dark Sun board and they were arguing "cannon". *rolls eyes* Has anyone ever heard that before? The part about new products trumping old in regards to rules?
Tsuul 06-24-07, 03:23 AM	I guess we can start with an eyeball measurement. Both feats give you a "companion". Leadership has a tougher prereq. How much stronger is Leadership? Assuming that we are playing with a psicrystal that advances feats, etc... So is the difference insignificant, small, medium, large, or astronomical. My own bias against crystals never lets me use them, so I have little exp in this dept.
Witch 06-24-07, 03:30 AM	Belief equates loosely to faith, and faith by definition deals with that which cannot be proven. Are you going to stand by that? For example, I believe I came out of my mother's womb. I believe I came out of there, but I cannot prove it. Are you going to call my belief that I came out of my mother's womb faith? Whatever the DM will decide is actually a completely seperate issue. Every DM is different so we need some common ground to stand on.. which basically amounts to RAW. In a game the DM is all important, on the boards RAW is all important. I am not sure that RAI is ever important though.. DMs go by RAI. By definition, it's important. What is often forgotten is that RAW by itself is meaningless. It needs to be interpreted to be understood. It relies on common sense - when it says "move", it expects you have an intuition of what moving is. When it says "square", it expects you to knows what that is. These are obvious words, but there are others that are less clear. There's also other examples, such as Foresight, where it's not certain whether a sentence refers to an additional effect or to the already listed effects. The fact that Extra Spell has so many debates, both sides believing they're right according to the RAW, is already absurd. "Rules as Written" is a term that refers to a literalistic interpretation of the rules - sometimes this is the correct one, at other times it is a clearly unintended one. Pun-Pun resulted from such interpretations, while he would not from someone who interpreted them less extremely. At these boards, RAW is not all we should discuss, because it does not lead to playable games.
Razor767 06-24-07, 04:36 AM	Are you going to stand by that? For example, I believe I came out of my mother's womb. I believe I came out of there, but I cannot prove it. Are you going to call my belief that I came out of my mother's womb faith? I'm hoping it's not an extraordinary stretch to presume that you were infact birthed as most humans are. I have only minor reservations about stating that with confidence. Besides, it's probably a matter of record somewhere. Meaning it would be... *drum roll* Written, and therefore CAN be proved. And the crowd goes wild. I know what you're saying though, just that example didn't serve you as well as it could have. DMs go by RAI. By definition, it's important. What is often forgotten is that RAW by itself is meaningless. It needs to be interpreted to be understood. It relies on common sense - when it says "move", it expects you have an intuition of what moving is. When it says "square", it expects you to knows what that is. These are obvious words, but there are others that are less clear. There's also other examples, such as Foresight, where it's not certain whether a sentence refers to an additional effect or to the already listed effects. The fact that Extra Spell has so many debates, both sides believing they're right according to the RAW, is already absurd. "Rules as Written" is a term that refers to a literalistic interpretation of the rules - sometimes this is the correct one, at other times it is a clearly unintended one. Pun-Pun resulted from such interpretations, while he would not from someone who interpreted them less extremely. At these boards, RAW is not all we should discuss, because it does not lead to playable games. I never stated that RAI wasn't important. I stated it was impossible to prove in a forum. Whereas RAW is black and white. Arguing one against the other is futility in it's purest form. It makes people feel important I guess. *shrugs* I suppose some may need that.
Witch 06-24-07, 04:42 AM	I'm hoping it's not an extraordinary stretch to presume that you were infact birthed as most humans are. I have only minor reservations about stating that with confidence. Besides, it's probably a matter of record somewhere. Meaning it would be... *drum roll* Written, and therefore CAN be proved. And the crowd goes wild. I know what you're saying though, just that example didn't serve you as well as it could have. My point still stands though - writing is no full proof. There's not even proof that there is a world outside your own perception. Technically, you could call that "faith", but I prefer to keep that term for religious belief. I never stated that RAI wasn't important. I stated it was impossible to prove in a forum. But sometimes, it is not important to prove that you are right about what the rules say, but rather about what the rules should say - or wanted to say, according to their designer.
Razor767 06-24-07, 04:49 AM	But sometimes, it is not important to prove that you are right about what the rules say, but rather about what the rules should say - or wanted to say, according to their designer. But that will forever be a matter of speculation and subject to the desires of the speculator. Unless a developer comes out and STATES their intent then it will be, by it's very nature, questionable. And once a dev states his intent specifically, it ceases to be RAI and become RAW, in spirit.
Witch 06-24-07, 05:02 AM	But that will forever be a matter of speculation and subject to the desires of the speculator. Unless a developer comes out and STATES their intent then it will be, by it's very nature, questionable. And once a dev states his intent specifically, it ceases to be RAI and become RAW, in spirit. We both know that even if a developer comes in and states his intent, a large amount of people will still say "but that's not what the book says!". Just like how the FAQ is treated by people who don't agree with it.
Razor767 06-24-07, 05:04 AM	Well... Yeah. But those guys are munchkins... :D
DM-Scott 06-24-07, 05:50 AM	I try my best not to ignore the rules. The "RAW" is something that is equal among gaming groups from the beginning. True, a DM can change the rules as written, but remember the DMG says that you should carefully consider if it is truely worth it to change a rule, and I'm sad to say that many DMs simply do not. That is, they make snap or quick decisions about changing rules. My players enjoy the fact I will follow the rules. If something is not addressed in the rules, I will try to handle it as close to the rules as possible, or even write rules for it that function well with the system as it is presented. Even if something seems "unbalanced", I try to look at the situation completely and look at it from as many angles as possible before I alter or remove something from the game. It saddens me when I see a player who is upset because he or she was denied something that was a part of their character's abilities without a very good reason. Unfortunately, simple RAI doesn't do it enough for me as a "good reason". Why? Because someone can choose to interpret something however they like. Sure, an idiot may choose to interpret that anytime you're denied your dex bonus you're "helpless", but that's not how it is. The rules say so, but they can choose to be butt-headed about it and view it as they want to see it. The following is a rant... These kinds of people are impossible to deal with, and they intentionally lack any sort of logical reasoning ability and should simply die because they are a waste of bodily organs. I know that sounds really harsh, and honestly, in about five minutes I won't think so. However it upsets me to see people, our human-kind, choosing to be ignorant when mountains of evidence is shown, and their responses are things like "that's the way I see it, and if anyone disagree's with me then that's THEIR PROBLEM". No, such people indeed have a problem themselves, and they need to address it. On a side note I will say that for the most part, I'm not up to date all all the errata of the books. I don't have a lot of printed out "fix it" sheets at the table with us. We still play the game as it is presented in our books, meaning even the stuff that was errata'd out of the game, or toned down (including druid wild shape and polymorph spells) is still generally used in our games. I've had a polymorphing sorcerer running around with a polymorphed familiar (both hydras, remaining within 5ft of each other) along with a full party with a druid, a bard, and a very strong fighter (as far as fighters go) who were challenged by about 6 level 2 hobgoblin fighters, and two ogres strait from the Monster Manual. Some of these DMs I read about on these boards make me sad. When I read about players who are given lame, half-***ed reasons why they can't have their abilities, or their spells, or their feats, or anything else that is supported in the rules, I put myself in that players shoes and I think how much I would dislike it if the DM treated me that way. I've been playing this game for years, and have DMed for most of that time, but I've been in that player's shoes in one form or another (try having a DM tell you that all your artificer can create are scrolls and potions, because thats all he wants you to make - it sucks, and yes it hurts to be the player getting crapped on). So I think long and hard about whether or not taking an ability away from a character, when it is supported in the rules and not being mis-interpreted. Please Note: This post is not directed at anyone in particular, so please do not become offended by this. The rant is about a lot of things I've seen in my gaming career, particularly on the WotC boards as a whole (not any board in particular). The part of this post that is addressing the current situation is - RAW is more important than RAI. I find more UNBALANCING problems with RAI than RAW, since most true meta-gaming-munchkinism-min/maxing-powergaming comes from "interpreting" the rules instead of looking at the rules for what they are. And no, I'm not specifically talking about psicrystals.
DM-Scott 06-24-07, 06:20 AM	*removed*
Azzy 06-24-07, 03:09 PM	*sighs* The solution to this is really rather simple. player: Does my psicrystal get feats and HD progression? DM: No. player: But according to RAW, it says it does. DM: I know. It still doesn't get them. player: But that's not fair! DM: *smiles and gestures to the door* Let me fix that for you: player: Does my psicrystal get feats and HD progression? DM: No. player: But according to RAW, it says it does. DM: I know. But the latest official decree says that it still doesn't get them. player: But that's not fair! DM: I know. That's why I created this fix.... player: Okay, cool. That makes it fair again. DM: That's just part of my job as the DM.
Azzy 06-24-07, 03:11 PM	It doesn't. The psicrystal listed in the statistics block gains it as a normal feat. The reason psicrystals in actual play don't gain anything else is that the statistics given are then used as a template for every other psicrystal in existence. That's what the rules say. We are given a number of changes to make to those statistics, but there is no change made to feats, so every psicrystal has Alertness. If you change the psicrystal statistics given in any way except those described in the psicrystal section earlier in the book (including normal advancement), then you're not following the RAW. Psicrystals just don't use normal advancement (and therefore don't gain more than Alertness) because we're told to use a specific set of statistics, and those statistics don't change. And part of those changes is the addition of hit dice. The addition of Hit dice grant feats. Bingo.
Lokiyn 06-24-07, 03:20 PM	So let me get this straight. The argument now isn't against the rules, Its not things like, Elves are not 18 inches tall and make delicious pastries and live inside trees like mutant hairless squirrel chefs because the rulebook has them as point eared humanoids that live for hundreds of years. It's I disagree personally That the rule book creators intended for elves to be based on the tolkienesque model of elves, I believe that they ment for the the elves to be based on the more traditional concept of elves as brownies, thus in my games i have "fixed" the flawed rules to match my personal assumptions so that all elves are tiny creatures dedicated to houswork and thier chosen families, be it herds of animals, trees, or small human settlements. yeah..... now you people are just getting silly. No one cares what peoples "personal" games are. Personal Games vary so much its rediculus, in one game all the players start off with a lesser artifact and one level in commoner. In another Everyone gets a free Level adjustment of 3 or less, in another everyone has hit points maximized. No one cares All That matters is how the actual rules functions, once in a Private game one can change the rules as they see fit, however the Reality is that the rules are one way. Seriously, i never want to meet you people in a vehicle, "Surely the planers "intended" for there to be an off ramp here, i'll just drive off the highway to get to the service road"
Fafnir 06-24-07, 03:28 PM	Let me fix that for you: player: Does my psicrystal get feats and HD progression? DM: No. player: But according to RAW, it says it does. DM: I know. But the latest official decree says that it still doesn't get them. player: But that's not fair! DM: I know. That's why I created this fix.... player: Okay, cool. That makes it fair again. DM: That's just part of my job as the DM. You make me feel warm and fuzzy inside. :cloud9:
DM-Scott 06-24-07, 06:16 PM	player: Does my psicrystal get feats and HD progression? DM: No. player: But according to RAW, it says it does. DM: I know. But the latest official decree says that it still doesn't get them. player: But that's not fair! DM: I know. That's why I created this fix.... player: Okay, cool. That makes it fair again. DM: That's just part of my job as the DM. Good DM here... :clap:
zuul88 06-24-07, 08:39 PM	"Surely the planers "intended" for there to be an off ramp here, i'll just drive off the highway to get to the service road" If only all stupid people would be so kind.:D Respect Nathan
Slagger the Chuul 06-24-07, 11:23 PM	And part of those changes is the addition of hit dice. The addition of Hit dice grant feats. Bingo. I agree. And the direct point to the statistics block overrides them. Bingo.
Lokiyn 06-24-07, 11:50 PM	false, at least read the entry before pretending that something is so A psicrystal’s characteristics depend on its master. Its Hit Dice are equal to its master’s Hit Dice (counting only levels in psion or wilder), its hit points are equal to half its master’s, and its saving throw bonuses are the same as its master’s. So according to your precious "direct point" Yes they do gain hit dice, and what do hit dice grant you? Feats. By modifying one part of the stat block, any changes resulting from that modification, must also be made unless explicitly called out otherwise. If you modified the Creatures Dex mod, you would also modify its Ac, unless it was explicitly called out otherwise.
Slagger the Chuul 06-25-07, 01:17 AM	By modifying one part of the stat block, any changes resulting from that modification, must also be made unless explicitly called out otherwise. And they are made; they're just completely replaced by Alertness because of that direct point. The feat line only replaces the feat selection from the hit dice, so both can exist simultaneously without any logical problem. Yes they do gain hit dice, and what do hit dice grant you? If you want to be complete correct, a psicrystal doesn't gain Hit Dice, it just has more of them when its master gains Hit Dice. It doesn't have extra Hit Dice because it's a more powerful version of the same creature, or because it improved; its Hit Dice are essentially just fakes borrowed from its master. If you modified the Creatures Dex mod, you would also modify its Ac, unless it was explicitly called out otherwise. Since the only change to a psicrystal's Dexterity is explicitly included in both the Armour Class and Abilities line of the statistics block, and noted in the psicrystal basics earlier in the book, that's not really a problem. But the AC line doesn't even contain any really data; it's totally derived from other sources (like Dexterity); there's not one piece of information that you couldn't work out without that line (it would just be less convenient). On the other hand, while you might potentially work out the number of feats you think a psicrystal should have from its Hit Dice, there's absolutely no way to tell which feats it has selected without referring to the feat line. The feat line has an existence that is not totally dependent on other lines of the statistics block.
Lokiyn 06-25-07, 01:49 AM	But there is NO evidence that alterness, replaces all existing feats forever and anon, like i pointed out earlier, thats like claiming that all Elan must be warriors with the warhammer feat, or that all Folugub must have Alertness, and Weapon Finesse, The line gives the creature’s feats. A monster gains feats just as a character does. Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript B (B). Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat. If you wish to customize the creature with new feats, you can reassign its other feats, but not its bonus feats. A creature cannot have a feat that is not a bonus feat unless it has the feat’s prerequisites. Monster entries do not contain "Blank" feat slots, they are always filled, yet it is explicitly written that these feats were gained through "just as a character does" Look at an example of this in the Monster manual, You make Troll characters by taking the monster entry from the manual, adding the La to calculate exp needed to level, and then add class levels on top of the base monster, Now are you seriously proposing that the trolls three racial feat must be, Alertness, Iron Will, and Track? No, The psicrystal feat is a Racial feat, and is filled as normal, The psicrystal entry contains alertness because its a default feat, one placed in absence of player choice, the same as any npc monster. The Feat could just as easily be Psionic Body.
Slagger the Chuul 06-25-07, 02:29 AM	But there is NO evidence that alterness, replaces all existing feats forever and anon, like i pointed out earlier, thats like claiming that all Elan must be warriors with the warhammer feat, or that all Folugub must have Alertness, and Weapon Finesse, The psicrystal as described by special psicrystal rules is different to an ordinary creature. Elans also don't, for example, rely on their "master's" skill points. Look at an example of this in the Monster manual, You make Troll characters by taking the monster entry from the manual, adding the La to calculate exp needed to level, and then add class levels on top of the base monster, Now are you seriously proposing that the trolls three racial feat must be, Alertness, Iron Will, and Track? A troll made as a normal character has the option of changing those feat options. But if there was a "Troll Affinity" feat that used exactly the same rules as the psicrystal, the troll granted would always be forced to have Alertness, Iron Will, and Track. The reference to specific statistics replaces the normal progression; for "Troll Affinity", it would even replace it if the troll had reduced Hit Dice, and would normally gain fewer than 3 feats. That's just how the psicrystal rules are written.
zuul88 06-25-07, 03:00 AM	*Double Post*
zuul88 06-25-07, 03:33 AM	The feat line has an existence that is not totally dependent on other lines of the statistics block. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Then what is the feat line dependent on???? Bruce Himself to actually appear and tell you? Or is it dependent on cover of the book? Or what about it being dependent on how many WarHammer 40K minis the feat line in question possesses?? The feat line is a VERY locked in line in the statbox. What feat is in that feat slot is easily the most interchangeable in the statbox, though. SRD http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dwarf.htm Feats: Weapon Focus (dwarven waraxe) Dwarf-So all dwarves pick weapon focus as their first level feat. Even those who dont quailfy like rogues, mages, clerics, psions, etc. Now dwarves must really love that axe, it is named for them after all. If I had a Nathan Hammer of Death I would have to swing it at people everyday just to live up to the name. So that makes Perfect sense. SRD http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hobgoblin.htm Alertness Hobgoblin-Wait. All Hobgoblins take Alertness as thier first level feat...? That feat sucks. Why would Every Hobgoblin take it? Well I guess if you had to watch out for dwarves who ALL swing thier axes extremely well, you got pay attention. Even if Improved Inititive or weapon focus or any other countless feats were available. Their stat block says so, and that can not be changed; Unless Bruce shows up or the feat line acquires more WH 40K minis so..........it must be. SRD http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm Weapon Focus (longbow) Elf-I know all elves love playing with bows, every one I have met in D&D in the 12 years I have been playing was good with bows. Every one of those elves had at Least 15 bows each. But something is starting to not make sense. What about shortbows? Elves love short bows, it makes them feel even taller. Elves Really Love Feeling Tall!!! Something is starting to not makes sense.:confused: SRD http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ettin.htm Alertness, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Power Attack Ettin-Again with that lame Alertness feat when Cleave would be way better. I think I get it. :thinks: The feats in the feat line are just for convience. :lightbulb It is very easy to figure out what should be in the feat line for any creature. First look at RACIAL HIT DICE, get a feat for every 3 of those HD. Then look to see if it has any class levels. It would get feats in accordance with those class levels. Just as the AC line is derived from other aspects so is the feat line. You sir, are a :turkey: SRD http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm#psicrystals A psicrystal is treated as a construct for the purposes of all effects that depend on its type. Psicrystal abilities are based on the owner’s levels in psionic classes. Use the statistics for a psicrystal, but make the following changes. Saving Throws Abilities Skills Now lets go check out the Psicrystal stats http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/psicrystal.htm Hit Dice: As master’s HD (hp ½ master’s) Int 6 The psicrystal described here is that of a 1st-level manifester. So if thus said Psicrystals master had 4 HD, the Psicrystal would have 4HD and Int 7(6+1). So the Psicrystal is an Intelligent Construct lets see what the SRD has to say about monster improvement. SRD http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#featAcquisitionand AbilityScoreIncreasesTable: Creature Improvement by Type Type(1*)___Hit Die___Attack Bonus___Good Saving Throws____Skill Points(2**) Construct__d10 HD___×¾ (as cleric)________—___________2 + Int mod per HD(3***) 1* All types have a number of feats equal to 1 + 1 per 3 Hit Dice. 2** As long as a creature has an Intelligence of at least 1, it gains a minimum of 1 skill point per Hit Die. 3** Creatures with an Intelligence score of "—" gain no skill points or feats. So The Psicrystal has the same HD progression as his masters Psionic Classes, and has an Int. score. That means (1*) applies since (2**) has been overridden by text and (3***) doesnt apply because Psicrystals have Int. Back to our 4th level Psions little Psicrystal waiting patiently for the results.....You have alertness(if you want to keep it) and your 3HD feat.:D So Psicrystals get feats by RAW. :king: The taste of victory is sweet indeed. Please if you reply to this well thought out and executed post, have respect to reply in kind. Otherwise you are a Disrespectful Punk who would be advised to stay the Internet Warrior they really are. Who is right? ME! Who is wrong? Anyone who reads the rules(Do Not Believe me!!! I put the links for EVERY single thing I said!!! Read with your own two eyes(or one for the cyclops out there) so then YOU will have read it.) and still says that by RAW psicrystals dont get feats. Respect Nathan P.S. I am glad I did this, that way I can just copy this whole post and SLAM it into the next thread on this in about 3 weeks.
DM-Scott 06-25-07, 03:48 AM	Hmmm...spirited you are in your post. :P Also, your logic seems good and you have much evidence to back it up, as well as sound examples. I believe you are correct zuul88. :clap:
zuul88 06-25-07, 04:08 AM	Hmmm...spirited you are in your post. :P Also, your logic seems good and you have much evidence to back it up, as well as sound examples. I believe you are correct zuul88. :clap: Does that mean I get a cookie? ;)
Slagger the Chuul 06-25-07, 04:30 AM	Then what is the feat line dependent on???? Bruce Himself to actually appear and tell you? Or is it dependent on cover of the book? Or what about it being dependent on how many WarHammer 40K minis the feat line in question possesses?? The feat line is a VERY locked in line in the statbox. What feat is in that feat slot is easily the most interchangeable in the statbox, though. The point is that it's less dependent not more. You can use the Hit Dice to determine the normal base number of feats for a creature, but the only way to find out its standard feat selection and bonus feats is on the feat line, thus it's not dependent on another source for that information. By comparison, you can determine all of the information on the Armour Class line from the other sources on which it depends. It is very easy to figure out what should be in the feat line for any creature. First look at RACIAL HIT DICE, get a feat for every 3 of those HD. Then look to see if it has any class levels. It would get feats in accordance with those class levels. Just as the AC line is derived from other aspects so is the feat line. The normal base number of feats is dependent on Hit Dice. The normal base selection of those feats depends on nothing but the feats line itself. So The Psicrystal has the same [B]HD progression as his masters Psionic Classes, and has an Int. score. That means (1*) applies since (2**) has been overridden by text and (3***) doesnt apply because Psicrystals have Int. And feats have also been overriden by text because it says to use the statistics from the page; not an alternative, not an advancement, not your personal fetish for WarHammer 40K minis. The statistics as given. The feats in the feat line are just for convience. Which isn't important in this case. They're what the rules say to use. You sir, are a :turkey: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And you, sir, are apparently some kind of rabid hyena. It's a shame that you can't post without becoming overexcited and engaging in blatant and gratuitous stroking of your ego. Respect Nathan Given your tone, I seriously doubt it.
zuul88 06-25-07, 06:01 AM	And feats have also been overriden by text because it says to use the statistics from the page; What Text??????? Where?????? You have NO examples!!!!! You have NO links!!!!! You are just running your mouth! Yes, Yes we know you make $20 a pop with it on the corner but here you actually need to say something. Here is another EXAMPLE to give you a hint of what one looks like when you come on here again running that bagpiper of yours. SRD http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/psicrystal.htm The psicrystal described here is that of a 1st-level manifester. There is some text. That "feat line" is for a 1st level manifester. So That is what a 20th level manifester psicyrstal looks like? No BAB? That makes a HORRIBLE melee touch attack. So you are basically saying that you dont care about the rules you do not like. You intentionally ignore those that offend your refined and prissy sense of decorum? So what happens when it improves? Do dwarves stay 1st level warriors because that is what the MM stat is? Why is there a whole improvement section? Filler? Anyways, thanks for the reminder to put that quote up in my original post. Given your tone, I seriously doubt it. To you, Probably Not but to the forum as a whole. Anyways, I give you a E for Effort. While you did not add anything of your own, quote anything, or link anything. You only tried to tell me I was wrong and discredit me but you at least tried to do a through job of it. Well, at least as through job as someone of your high intellectual caliber could. Try again. Next time can you not come to a battle of wits and logic unarmed, though. It makes it very unsporting on my part. Respect Nathan P.S. If anyone feels disrespected by my post, I probably meant it.
Slagger the Chuul 06-25-07, 08:58 AM	You have NO links!!!!! I'm referring to the simple, but explicit, statement: Use the statistics for a psicrystal, but make the following changes. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm#psicrystals). As you may observe, we are instructed to use the statistics; not an advancement of them, not our postulate on what they should be, nor our opinion on what we don't like about them. When we examine the psicrystal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/psicrystal.htm) statistics, we can see that a variety of items are made alterable by virtue of either the particular qualities described for the psicrystal basics (that first link) or by the design of the psicrystal statistics themselves. From the psicrystal basics, we know to make changes to saving throws, abilities, skills, and special abilities. From the psicrystal statistics, we know that Hit Dice are equal to the master's Hit Dice and will be different depending on his Hit Dice. Saves are also mutable, but this was already covered by the psicrystal basics. Since there is no change noted for other statistics, the psicrystal otherwise has exactly what appears in the statistics block. That "feat line" is for a 1st level manifester. So That is what a 20th level manifester psicyrstal looks like? No BAB? That makes a HORRIBLE melee touch attack. So you are basically saying that you dont care about the rules you do not like. You intentionally ignore those that offend your refined and prissy sense of decorum? You're suggesting that the instructions we have been given are wrong because you don't like the results (particularly BAB). The statistics block for a 20th-level psicrystal would have the changes noted in psicrystal basics, and Hit Dice equal to its master's Hit Dice (which will be 20, assuming that the 20 manifester levels are psion or wilder levels). By a strict reading of the rules, I agree that it will have a terrible BAB of +0, even at 20th level. So what happens when it improves? Do dwarves stay 1st level warriors because that is what the MM stat is? Why is there a whole improvement section? Filler? Anyways, thanks for the reminder to put that quote up in my original post. The psicrystal never improves, it just get better statistics if its master gains levels. If the master loses levels, its statistics get worse. The psicrystal statistics make exceptions to the normal rules by their very nature. Dwarves, have no special rules for determining their exact statistics, so they follow the normal rules. Try again. Next time can you not come to a battle of wits and logic unarmed, though. It makes it very unsporting on my part. You can call it a battle if you like, it's just idle discussion to me.
zuul88 06-25-07, 09:11 AM	*Double Post*
Lokiyn 06-25-07, 09:29 AM	But thats the whole point. Statistic blocks are not static, Changing one variable necessitates changes in lines and formulas that rely on or use that variable. Thats simply how the blocks work. If the statistics were a fixed result the block itself would need no reference to the manifester level of the owner, In doing so the block opens itself up, implicitly, to the existanct of different variations of the block for differing levels of character. To say that the feat line remains unaltered by the addition of additional hit dice is nothing less than the willful disregard of reality. If your dex mod changes, your Ac changes, and your initiative changes. Which by the way are both a fixed value modified by additional information. If the Psicrystals strength was altered the psicrystals grapple would be altered. As the Psicrystal gains in hit dice, it gains in feats. To pretend otherwise is madness. The Stat blocks line for feats does not contain "future feats", in all cases a statblock for a creature in dnd contains all present feats, as chosen by the monster designer in absence of player choice as a default feat choice. Thus even if you hold that alertness must be chosen as the first level feat, as soon as the psicrystals hit dice reach four, that forces the feat line to become. Feats: Alertness, "Feat" With each additional three hit dice raising the Feat line by one more feat. The The Statistics of a monster do not exist in a void, whenever one variable changes it will cause changes in everything that relies on it.
zuul88 06-25-07, 09:53 AM	For only One reason do I continue to discuss knowledge with your ignorance!!! Long Live Sardior! As you may observe, we are instructed to use the statistics; not an advancement of them, not our postulate on what they should be, nor our opinion on what we don't like about them. I gave you the link to the rules but apparentantly you need things explained to you like a 6 year old with down syndrome. It has nothing to do with my thoughts or feeling. It is the rules! So here goes. SRD http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#featAcquisitionand AbilityScoreIncreasesTable: Each of the monster entries describes a typical creature of its kind. However, there are several methods by which extraordinary or unique monsters can be created using a typical creature as the foundation: by adding character classes, increasing a monster’s Hit Dice, or by adding a template to a monster. So by increasing HD you improve the Psicrsytal beyond that of a 1st level manifesters. SRD Increased Hit Dice Intelligent creatures that are not humanoid in shape, and nonintelligent monsters, can advance by increasing their Hit Dice There is the specific reference to HD. SRD Ability Score Improvement Treat monster Hit Dice the same as character level for determining ability score increases. This only applies to Hit Dice increases, monsters do not gain ability score increases for levels they "already reached" with their racial Hit Dice, since these adjustments are included in their basic ability scores This actually how they get ability boosts. +1/4HD SRD Feat Acquisition and Ability Score Increases A monster’s total Hit Dice, not its ECL, govern its acquisition of feats and ability score increases. So my 3HD Psicrystal has 3HD he gets a feat and at 4th level gets a +1 stat bonus. From the psicrystal statistics, we know that Hit Dice are equal to the master's Hit Dice and will be different depending on his Hit Dice. Saves are also mutable, but this was already covered by the psicrystal basics. SRD Increased Hit Dice Intelligent creatures that are not humanoid in shape, and nonintelligent monsters, can advance by increasing their Hit Dice Here you go again. Do you see what the rules say? You advance by HD. You already have admit that a Psicrystals HD improve. Since there is no change noted for other statistics, the psicrystal otherwise has exactly what appears in the statistics block. Then WHY IS THERE A MONSTER IMPROVEMENT TABLE??? A monster improvement you say.........Like the one you posted in the last thread Nathan. Why yes my poster child for retroactive birthcontrol, here you go a second time while I beat your mother for her chronic alcohol/drug abuse with you in her womb. SRD http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#featAcquisitionand AbilityScoreIncreasesTable: Creature Improvement by Type Type(1*)___Hit Die___Attack Bonus___Good Saving Throws____Skill Points(2**) Construct__d10 HD___×¾ (as cleric)________—___________2 + Int mod per HD(3***) 1* All types have a number of feats equal to 1 + 1 per 3 Hit Dice. 2** As long as a creature has an Intelligence of at least 1, it gains a minimum of 1 skill point per Hit Die. 3** Creatures with an Intelligence score of "—" gain no skill points or feats. You're suggesting that the instructions we have been given are wrong because you don't like the results (particularly BAB). No. I have PUT the rules up. I am not saying any rules are wrong. That is what I am quoting while you parrot back one line, I am quoting 30 overarcing ones. There is a BAB for constructs. It is their type. You do understand the simple concept of creature type, don't you? A Psicrystal is an Intelligent Construct and should be treated as such EXCEPT where listed; Skills, Saves, Ablities! So BAB, Feat Progression, Stat Improvement still is active. The psicrystal never improves, it just get better statistics if its master gains levels. If the master loses levels, its statistics get worse. The psicrystal statistics make exceptions to the normal rules by their very nature. If at this point you still believe this garbage you posted in the above quote, PLEASE DO THE WORLD A FAVOR AND PLAY ON THE FREEWAY! Respect Nathan P.S. Why do I consistitly think that the stupid, ignorant are capable of learning and worth saving? I know they are chaff that needs to gotten rid of while the wheat is kept. Yet here I am one more time trying to ground chaff into worthwhile flour.
Slagger the Chuul 06-25-07, 10:56 AM	Statistic blocks are not static, Changing one variable necessitates changes in lines and formulas that rely on or use that variable. We aren't changing any variables in the statistics block itself. We're applying changes to a base set of statistics depending on the level of the manifester. The modifications to the statistics block change, but the basic statistics of the block itself aren't changing. That's why the feats and BAB don't change. If the psicrystal were capable of advancing on its own, the statistics block would change just like a normal creature. As the Psicrystal gains in hit dice, it gains in feats. To pretend otherwise is madness. That's the point. The psicrystal isn't gaining Hit Dice; the master is gaining Hit Dice. The psicrystal simply has more Hit Dice as a result. You already have admit that a Psicrystals HD improve. No, they just end up higher because of improvement in the master. That is what I am quoting while you parrot back one line, I am quoting 30 overarcing ones. You're quoting the broader rules of the game from various sources. They just don't happen to apply to this situation because the psicrystal isn't advancing like a normal creature. Why yes my poster child for retroactive birthcontrol, here you go a second time while I beat your mother for her chronic alcohol/drug abuse with you in her womb. Please show some restraint. If you go around saying things like that, you're going to offend someone.
zuul88 06-25-07, 11:16 AM	Please show some restraint. If you go around saying things like that, you're going to offend someone. And get messages full of Dragon Cookies, then being told I have god flames. Those couple messages were worth all the irratation of trying to explain simple rules to you. I stand by my Posterchild for Retroactive Birthcontrol statement. You refuse to learn. You refuse to stop being ignorant. There are a couple people on here explaining things but you are Unwilling/Unable to learn. So............I am done. Glad to have done it. Proud of the effort I put forth because others might learn from it. Proud of the fact I have a learning ability above a stupid chimp. So I gotta say overall--Thank You Slagger!!! I feel much better about myself because at least I am not you. Respect Nathan
Slagger the Chuul 06-25-07, 11:40 AM	It's a shame that you feel that your point of view can't stand without baseless insults. In time, you may be able to discuss things in a more civil manner. Nevertheless, I look forward to convincing you of my point of view. :)
Mercurius 06-25-07, 12:33 PM	I've gotta say, coming into this thread with no opinion one way or another, I'm thoroughly convinced that PsiCrystals gain feats as their hit dice increase, just like any other creature (aside from familiars, though they technically don't have a hit dice increase). Slagger, your argument ignores the fact that the hit dice are increasing. What causes this increase is actually entirely unimportant. If a monster's hit dice increase due to just getting bigger and buffer, it gets feats. If its hit dice increase because it took levels of rogue, it gets feats. If its hit dice increase because it is a psionic construct tied to the hit dice of its master, it gains feats too. Because all three examples have creatures gaining feats. A psicrystal is not gaining "virtual hit dice" anymore than an animal companion or a human taking levels in sorcerer. They are gaining actual hit dice, but that gain is dependent upon their master's hit dice improvement. That doesn't somehow make them odd "addendum" hit dice that get tacked on to the "baseline statistics" of the crystal, especially since the rules even call out that the stats as printed are for a 1st level psion's crystal. The hit dice increase in the only way a psicrystal's hit dice can (by master progression), but that's still the same as any other hit dice increase. A human gains levels instead of increasing racial hit dice, but that doesn't somehow preclude him from gaining feats. A dire wolf gains racial hit dice instead of levels, but he still gets feats every three. A psicrystal gains racial hit dice as his master gains class levels, and his feats increase accordingly. The hit dice increase modifies the statistic block, which then modifies those things that are affected by hit dice increase (saves, skills, feats, HP, etc), but the rules specifically call out that skills and saves are changed in a different manner than standard. It doesn't say anything about feats, but it is nevertheless fact that the hit dice increase, and thus, anything not specifically overruled increases too. This has been a very interesting and enlightening thread (despite Zuul's regrettably increasing juvenile tone), but it has convinced me thoroughly that psicrystals get feats. And I see no real problem with that. Far too many arguments have been levied to support it, whereas the detractors continue to use arguments that either refer to RAI (which I'll admit is up to the DM to enforce or not enforce as they see fit) or just continue to reiterate one line that doesn't even make sense in face of the greater pool of evidence to the contrary.
kyeudo 06-25-07, 01:08 PM	I have lost any and all respect I once had for Slagger the Chuul. Sadly, I used to think he was one of the more intelligent people on the forum. Mercurius has posted the point elequently. The psicrystal's stats are not some permanent, unchangable block, they are a starting point. As more Hit Dice get added, the Psicrystal gains feats. Because its feat line gives Alertness as a feat doesn't mean thats that is the only feat it can ever get. That's like saying if the Tarrasque gains 3 hit dice, he doesn't get any more feats because its feat line specifies all the feats that it can have.
Slagger the Chuul 06-25-07, 01:50 PM	Far too many arguments have been levied to support it, whereas the detractors continue to use arguments that either refer to RAI (which I'll admit is up to the DM to enforce or not enforce as they see fit) or just continue to reiterate one line that doesn't even make sense in face of the greater pool of evidence to the contrary. The application of those extra feats requires you to undertake a process that isn't included in the basic rules where you are told how to build a psicrystal. Follow the instructions step-by-step, without adding any of your own interpretations of what you think should go in, and you'll end up with a psicrystal that has Alertness as a feat (and nothing more). I have lost any and all respect I once had for Slagger the Chuul. Sadly, if you can lose it so easily, it probably wasn't worth having in the first place.
Razor767 06-25-07, 03:54 PM	I snagged this from a sig... but it fits this thread oh so perfectly Unless you are: 1) a designer who wrote it or 2) a member of customer service or 3) able to produce a direct verifiable quote from either don't bother me with Rules As Intended. If I want a houserule, I'll make one up myself.
Magon 06-25-07, 04:24 PM	despite Zuul's regrettably increasing juvenile tone well i'd get pretty ****** of if i where him, trough. he's good for flaming. now we need trolls
ORC_Paradox 06-25-07, 05:04 PM	Guys, knock it off.