This is not the villain you are looking for [Archive] - Wizards Community

This is not the villain you are looking for [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rechan
09-11-07, 11:05 PM Here's the situation.

My 4th level PCs are about to go kick in the door and battle a lone psion who's pretty much a Big Bully. However, unknown to any involved, the psion has drawn the attention of a more powerful psionic group. They want the psion for themselves.

What I want to do is have this Powerful Group swoop in before the PCs coup de grace the guy, whisk the psion away, and convince the PCs they did something with the psion.

The question is, How do I do this? What powers should I use? Any suggestions of tactics, methods, or any way to deceive the PCs? Any way to do this without appearing heavy handed/dues ex machina?

Two other caveats:

My PCs are all spellcasters of some fashion or another. Meaning they have hefty will saves (+5 to +7, respectively).

I don't want these NPC psions to be over 12th level or higher, so let's avoid depending on 7th level powers or above.
PhaedrusXY
09-11-07, 11:25 PM Temporal Acceleration is 6th level. They could overchannel that, teleport in, and ready an action to incapacitate the guy somehow, then teleport out again.

A single psion with Metamorphic Transfer should be able to do it, I think. Metamorphosis into a Medusa, and share it with your psicrystal. The psicrystal turns into something with a huge strength. The Psion activates Temporal Acceleration, sharing it with the Psicrystal. They Teleport in, and both ready actions.

Then the Psion turns the guy to stone, the familiar picks him up, and they teleport away. The teleport could even be triggered by a contingency, if they guy could boost his manifester level by 3 some how (Overchannel, Orange Ioun stone(s), etc).

To the PCs, it would happen in the blink of an eye, so fast that they wouldn't even get to react. :D
Sagetim
09-12-07, 12:02 AM False Sensory Input. level 12: 18 base int + 3 level up, + 4 hband of int = 25 int. 20 base will save dc. Add in a psionatrix of telepathy, up the dc to 21. Add in Metaconcert and you can have an additional 3 to the dc for 3 participants (or more if the telepath has leadership or is a thrallherd. )
Rechan
09-12-07, 12:40 AM These all are a little more heavy handed and harsh than I intended. Just having someone leap in and grab him and teleport out is Cheap. That will anger the players. It's wholely unfair.

More importantly, if you're using false sensory input, WHAT are you putting in? I want to know what to do, not just what powers.

I want this to go down like Men in Black. Using the psionic equivalent of Hold Person (so they don't try to attack very hefty powerful individuals) and then Modify Memory or False Sensory Input. It must be a smooth operation, where they leave no Questions.

Even if the PLAYERS know something went terribly, terribly wrong and someone just stole their guy, the CHARACTERS must believe that what happened was reasonable. They want this guy dead or taken out. So if someone just teleports in and snags him, or they get a sensory input that he 'ran away', they will look from high heavens for him. I want them to think the 'case is closed' and it was resolved.
Sagetim
09-12-07, 12:54 AM oh sorry, use false sensory input to have a demon or somesuch thing burst through the air, devour the guy. Then as it moves to attack the players, have it flee from a celestial who chases it into the void.

sure, it's strange....but life can be right freaky in the planes.

also: brain lock and modify memory are the ones you were thinking of. Brain lock -level 2 hold

Modify memory = level 4, rewrite 5 minutes of subject's memories.

In both cases I would suggest using a leadership and metaconcert combo to increase DC's. If a player still makes the save, you can always have someone crack them over the head with a mace. You can also modify the memories to have the players think that the guy managed to blow himself up by trying to banish them or something.
Rechan
09-12-07, 01:02 AM Something more realistic, please.

Brainlock doesn't "Hold person". It dazes them. They can still fight back. And it only effects one person per shot.
Sagetim
09-12-07, 01:28 AM unless you want to use an erudite, there's no 'psionic hold person'. If you need a suitable memory modification:

have them 'remember' that the person they were after was plumb (censored) psycho and decided to use a vest of alchemical fire on himself rather than surrender.

maybe they could 'remember' him trying to activate a power from a powerstone, then the stone exploding in his hand and obliterating him as it teleported his body away in different directions.

perhaps they could 'remember' will smith kicking down the door and walking in to the theme of Men In Black, grabbing the guy, and dragging him away.

maybe they could 'remember' an assassin appearing out of the shadows, stabbing the man through the heart, then absconding with the corpse via teleport.
PhaedrusXY
09-12-07, 01:39 AM Brainlock doesn't "Hold person". It dazes them. They can still fight back. And it only effects one person per shot.No they can't. You're thinking of Dazzled. They can't do anything while dazed.
Dazed
The creature is unable to act normally. A dazed creature can take no actions, but has no penalty to AC.

A dazed condition typically lasts 1 round. These all are a little more heavy handed and harsh than I intended. Just having someone leap in and grab him and teleport out is Cheap. That will anger the players. It's wholely unfair.

More importantly, if you're using false sensory input, WHAT are you putting in? I want to know what to do, not just what powers.

I want this to go down like Men in Black. Using the psionic equivalent of Hold Person (so they don't try to attack very hefty powerful individuals) and then Modify Memory or False Sensory Input. It must be a smooth operation, where they leave no Questions.What you are describing IS heavy handed and unfair. A Mass Hold Person that is utterly irresistable? Having them chase some guy down, only to have their "prize" whisked away at the last minute? Erasing their memory, so they won't do anything about it? It is incredibly heavy-handed. You just don't see it because it is your idea.
Even if the PLAYERS know something went terribly, terribly wrong and someone just stole their guy, the CHARACTERS must believe that what happened was reasonable. They want this guy dead or taken out. So if someone just teleports in and snags him, or they get a sensory input that he 'ran away', they will look from high heavens for him. I want them to think the 'case is closed' and it was resolved.Do you really expect them not to metagame this at all? They're going to dig and pry and try to find some facts that don't match up, and when they do, they'll look for explainations, and eventually will figure out what "really" happened... which in reality the PCs knew all along.

The whole thing sounds very silly and contrived. It works in the movies because you aren't one of the people having your memory erased. The way to do it in game is to only tell them about the Illusion/Modified Memory. If you want them to figure out what really happened, leave clues, and encourage them to follow them.
Omen_of_Peace
09-12-07, 01:54 AM You could always use Dominate. Or, since the problem is that you need some powers to target more than one creature, adapt the metamagic feat Chain Spell to powers (replacing the current version).
Rechan
09-12-07, 01:58 AM No they can't. You're thinking of Dazzled. They can't do anything while dazed.

You're right, I thought the power meant "They can't take psionic action or spellcasting but can still attack normally".

Do you really expect them not to metagame this at all? They're going to dig and pry and try to find some facts that don't match up, and when they do, they'll look for explainations, and eventually will figure out what "really" happened... which in reality the PCs knew all along.

This is actually what I want to happen. It's a Detective/Intrigue game. I want these NPCs to return as recurring villains. This is meant as a preface. I want the players to be paranoid. I want inconsistencies to bubble up to the surface. The players like complexity, paranoia, and such. That's what I'm driving at.

But I don't want them to find out the Who right away. As to the clues, the "What they see", is what I am at a loss for, and how I can pull it off rulse-wise without throwing 15th level NPCs at them.
PhaedrusXY
09-12-07, 02:03 AM Then don't let the players know who it really is, but leave clues. If you do what you're describing, I'd just feel frustrated and rail-roaded, and I'd be annoyed.
Rechan
09-12-07, 02:07 AM [QUOTE=PhaedrusXY;13752173]Then don't let the players know who it really is, but leave clues./QUOTE]

The problem with this is:

1) The clues I am at a loss for. I don't know what to change their memory to.. I don't know what to falsify. That's one of the things I'm asking advice on.

2) I want them to Believe that things are solved. That they can "move on" and the inconsistencies to surface later.

3) I want the players to see the NPCs doing this. It will build recognition so that the next time I actually describe them the Players will know what's up. I expect a level of metagame thinking.
Sagetim
09-12-07, 02:09 AM you can probabaly do the majority of what I've suggested with a level 9 or so npc. Leadership at level 6, modify memory at 7, metaconcert at 9. Daze em, modify memories, leave some 'evidence' laying around. Maybe stab them a few times to simulate 'injuries' they get during the 'fight'. done and done....maybe have one of them with a stab wound that was unaccounted for.

you can always have them think that they killed the guy with fire or something. Maybe someone 'cast a spell' on a bottle of alchemist fire the man was about to throw, then the guy ran round the room burning to death.
Omen_of_Peace
09-12-07, 02:40 AM The King's Guard/Secret Police comes in and arrests the psion ?
EternalZzyx
09-12-07, 10:22 AM Have the players fight the psion, the NPCs carry him off, then have the wake up at their last camp-site, as if it was all but a dream, joint anxiety over upcoming fight in a magic field etc. then let the go fight the psion again, this time with no NPCs to spirit away the enemy, there you have their knowledge of the people, but no way of knowing what really happened. It is stretching modify memory a bit (though possibly only two manifestations, don't worry about it, you are allowed to stretch the rules for your story.)

I would probably do it that way, actually, I might use that myself sometime, it fits the tone of my world...
chicgeek
09-12-07, 01:57 PM You can also have all the PC charge in but discover that the psion is already missing from his sanctuary. Sprinkle in some clues of a struggle, or if the players have Object Read or whatever, they'll discover a kidnapping from an obvious source.

Or if you must have an encounter, you can have them discover the very last of the kidnappers teleporting out of there, battle and then interrogate and investigate where they took the bully.
Lycanthromancer
09-12-07, 02:12 PM Depending on how close the PCs are to 'kicking in the door,' you could have them meet some infiltrators on the way to the psion's stronghold, and they help each other out for a 'shared objective' (ie, trashing the psion). When they have him viably beaten, have the infiltrators betray them, kidnap the psion, take whatever other goodies the PCs are after (treasure, etc), immobilize them with a high-level (but not unbeatable) spell/power-effect (AoE and mind-affecting; if some of the PCs fail their save, they can distract the others), then leave some sort of calling card ("Never mess with the ******s, you rubes!").
Racinante
09-12-07, 04:13 PM Let the bad guys kill the psion. Then have the BBG teleport in and grab the body and teleport/plane shift out. Make sure the PCs know he was dead. BBG can revivify him on return home.

Add story/flavor to season, or have two BBGs jump in, makes for a faster revivify. The first teleports and the second readies a teleport for when the first touches the dead psion.
PhaedrusXY
09-12-07, 06:47 PM The OP has another thread on the "What's a DM to do?" board on this topic. He has house ruled all methods of Raise Dead out of the game, so that won't work.
Sagetim
09-12-07, 07:17 PM The OP has another thread on the "What's a DM to do?" board on this topic. He has house ruled all methods of Raise Dead out of the game, so that won't work.

my answer: subdual damage. It will blast the person, and make him look pretty dead. especially if he has some normal wounds before the subdual damage is dealt. Pretty sure there's a metamagic feat subdual spell, not sure if there's a metapsi equivalent. Perhaps Ego whip him into submission?
kyeudo
09-12-07, 07:28 PM My suggestion? Carry the fight out normaly. Let them kill the psion you want to get ubducted. Then, later, they will find the psion still alive, and wonder how this happened.

Have it revealed to them that the wounds they thought they had sustained fighting this psion had actualy been inflicted upon them by the BBEG and then they had had their memories modified by the BBEG so that they would believe that they had killed the psion and thus detour all attempts to find the psion.

Voila! Instant plot hook for later, without distubing continuity or using Deus Ex Machina events.
Silver_Bulette
09-12-07, 07:52 PM If they have to believe the guy died without leaving a trace, have him melt away like the Wicked Witch of the West. They will think it is for comedic effect, but no...
Sagetim
09-12-07, 08:00 PM If they have to believe the guy died without leaving a trace, have him melt away like the Wicked Witch of the West. They will think it is for comedic effect, but no...

that's what I've been trying to say. Have the guy die in such a way that they wouldn't get remains. Or maybe have the only remains be one of his hands, which later gets regenerated or something...or maybe he gets a hook hand and starts going 'arrrr'

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rechan 09-11-07, 11:05 PM	Here's the situation. My 4th level PCs are about to go kick in the door and battle a lone psion who's pretty much a Big Bully. However, unknown to any involved, the psion has drawn the attention of a more powerful psionic group. They want the psion for themselves. What I want to do is have this Powerful Group swoop in before the PCs coup de grace the guy, whisk the psion away, and convince the PCs they did something with the psion. The question is, How do I do this? What powers should I use? Any suggestions of tactics, methods, or any way to deceive the PCs? Any way to do this without appearing heavy handed/dues ex machina? Two other caveats: My PCs are all spellcasters of some fashion or another. Meaning they have hefty will saves (+5 to +7, respectively). I don't want these NPC psions to be over 12th level or higher, so let's avoid depending on 7th level powers or above.
PhaedrusXY 09-11-07, 11:25 PM	Temporal Acceleration is 6th level. They could overchannel that, teleport in, and ready an action to incapacitate the guy somehow, then teleport out again. A single psion with Metamorphic Transfer should be able to do it, I think. Metamorphosis into a Medusa, and share it with your psicrystal. The psicrystal turns into something with a huge strength. The Psion activates Temporal Acceleration, sharing it with the Psicrystal. They Teleport in, and both ready actions. Then the Psion turns the guy to stone, the familiar picks him up, and they teleport away. The teleport could even be triggered by a contingency, if they guy could boost his manifester level by 3 some how (Overchannel, Orange Ioun stone(s), etc). To the PCs, it would happen in the blink of an eye, so fast that they wouldn't even get to react. :D
Sagetim 09-12-07, 12:02 AM	False Sensory Input. level 12: 18 base int + 3 level up, + 4 hband of int = 25 int. 20 base will save dc. Add in a psionatrix of telepathy, up the dc to 21. Add in Metaconcert and you can have an additional 3 to the dc for 3 participants (or more if the telepath has leadership or is a thrallherd. )
Rechan 09-12-07, 12:40 AM	These all are a little more heavy handed and harsh than I intended. Just having someone leap in and grab him and teleport out is Cheap. That will anger the players. It's wholely unfair. More importantly, if you're using false sensory input, WHAT are you putting in? I want to know what to do, not just what powers. I want this to go down like Men in Black. Using the psionic equivalent of Hold Person (so they don't try to attack very hefty powerful individuals) and then Modify Memory or False Sensory Input. It must be a smooth operation, where they leave no Questions. Even if the PLAYERS know something went terribly, terribly wrong and someone just stole their guy, the CHARACTERS must believe that what happened was reasonable. They want this guy dead or taken out. So if someone just teleports in and snags him, or they get a sensory input that he 'ran away', they will look from high heavens for him. I want them to think the 'case is closed' and it was resolved.
Sagetim 09-12-07, 12:54 AM	oh sorry, use false sensory input to have a demon or somesuch thing burst through the air, devour the guy. Then as it moves to attack the players, have it flee from a celestial who chases it into the void. sure, it's strange....but life can be right freaky in the planes. also: brain lock and modify memory are the ones you were thinking of. Brain lock -level 2 hold Modify memory = level 4, rewrite 5 minutes of subject's memories. In both cases I would suggest using a leadership and metaconcert combo to increase DC's. If a player still makes the save, you can always have someone crack them over the head with a mace. You can also modify the memories to have the players think that the guy managed to blow himself up by trying to banish them or something.
Rechan 09-12-07, 01:02 AM	Something more realistic, please. Brainlock doesn't "Hold person". It dazes them. They can still fight back. And it only effects one person per shot.
Sagetim 09-12-07, 01:28 AM	unless you want to use an erudite, there's no 'psionic hold person'. If you need a suitable memory modification: have them 'remember' that the person they were after was plumb (censored) psycho and decided to use a vest of alchemical fire on himself rather than surrender. maybe they could 'remember' him trying to activate a power from a powerstone, then the stone exploding in his hand and obliterating him as it teleported his body away in different directions. perhaps they could 'remember' will smith kicking down the door and walking in to the theme of Men In Black, grabbing the guy, and dragging him away. maybe they could 'remember' an assassin appearing out of the shadows, stabbing the man through the heart, then absconding with the corpse via teleport.
PhaedrusXY 09-12-07, 01:39 AM	Brainlock doesn't "Hold person". It dazes them. They can still fight back. And it only effects one person per shot.No they can't. You're thinking of Dazzled. They can't do anything while dazed. Dazed The creature is unable to act normally. A dazed creature can take no actions, but has no penalty to AC. A dazed condition typically lasts 1 round. These all are a little more heavy handed and harsh than I intended. Just having someone leap in and grab him and teleport out is Cheap. That will anger the players. It's wholely unfair. More importantly, if you're using false sensory input, WHAT are you putting in? I want to know what to do, not just what powers. I want this to go down like Men in Black. Using the psionic equivalent of Hold Person (so they don't try to attack very hefty powerful individuals) and then Modify Memory or False Sensory Input. It must be a smooth operation, where they leave no Questions.What you are describing IS heavy handed and unfair. A Mass Hold Person that is utterly irresistable? Having them chase some guy down, only to have their "prize" whisked away at the last minute? Erasing their memory, so they won't do anything about it? It is incredibly heavy-handed. You just don't see it because it is your idea. Even if the PLAYERS know something went terribly, terribly wrong and someone just stole their guy, the CHARACTERS must believe that what happened was reasonable. They want this guy dead or taken out. So if someone just teleports in and snags him, or they get a sensory input that he 'ran away', they will look from high heavens for him. I want them to think the 'case is closed' and it was resolved.Do you really expect them not to metagame this at all? They're going to dig and pry and try to find some facts that don't match up, and when they do, they'll look for explainations, and eventually will figure out what "really" happened... which in reality the PCs knew all along. The whole thing sounds very silly and contrived. It works in the movies because you aren't one of the people having your memory erased. The way to do it in game is to only tell them about the Illusion/Modified Memory. If you want them to figure out what really happened, leave clues, and encourage them to follow them.
Omen_of_Peace 09-12-07, 01:54 AM	You could always use Dominate. Or, since the problem is that you need some powers to target more than one creature, adapt the metamagic feat Chain Spell to powers (replacing the current version).
Rechan 09-12-07, 01:58 AM	No they can't. You're thinking of Dazzled. They can't do anything while dazed. You're right, I thought the power meant "They can't take psionic action or spellcasting but can still attack normally". Do you really expect them not to metagame this at all? They're going to dig and pry and try to find some facts that don't match up, and when they do, they'll look for explainations, and eventually will figure out what "really" happened... which in reality the PCs knew all along. This is actually what I want to happen. It's a Detective/Intrigue game. I want these NPCs to return as recurring villains. This is meant as a preface. I want the players to be paranoid. I want inconsistencies to bubble up to the surface. The players like complexity, paranoia, and such. That's what I'm driving at. But I don't want them to find out the Who right away. As to the clues, the "What they see", is what I am at a loss for, and how I can pull it off rulse-wise without throwing 15th level NPCs at them.
PhaedrusXY 09-12-07, 02:03 AM	Then don't let the players know who it really is, but leave clues. If you do what you're describing, I'd just feel frustrated and rail-roaded, and I'd be annoyed.
Rechan 09-12-07, 02:07 AM	[QUOTE=PhaedrusXY;13752173]Then don't let the players know who it really is, but leave clues./QUOTE] The problem with this is: 1) The clues I am at a loss for. I don't know what to change their memory to.. I don't know what to falsify. That's one of the things I'm asking advice on. 2) I want them to Believe that things are solved. That they can "move on" and the inconsistencies to surface later. 3) I want the players to see the NPCs doing this. It will build recognition so that the next time I actually describe them the Players will know what's up. I expect a level of metagame thinking.
Sagetim 09-12-07, 02:09 AM	you can probabaly do the majority of what I've suggested with a level 9 or so npc. Leadership at level 6, modify memory at 7, metaconcert at 9. Daze em, modify memories, leave some 'evidence' laying around. Maybe stab them a few times to simulate 'injuries' they get during the 'fight'. done and done....maybe have one of them with a stab wound that was unaccounted for. you can always have them think that they killed the guy with fire or something. Maybe someone 'cast a spell' on a bottle of alchemist fire the man was about to throw, then the guy ran round the room burning to death.
Omen_of_Peace 09-12-07, 02:40 AM	The King's Guard/Secret Police comes in and arrests the psion ?
EternalZzyx 09-12-07, 10:22 AM	Have the players fight the psion, the NPCs carry him off, then have the wake up at their last camp-site, as if it was all but a dream, joint anxiety over upcoming fight in a magic field etc. then let the go fight the psion again, this time with no NPCs to spirit away the enemy, there you have their knowledge of the people, but no way of knowing what really happened. It is stretching modify memory a bit (though possibly only two manifestations, don't worry about it, you are allowed to stretch the rules for your story.) I would probably do it that way, actually, I might use that myself sometime, it fits the tone of my world...
chicgeek 09-12-07, 01:57 PM	You can also have all the PC charge in but discover that the psion is already missing from his sanctuary. Sprinkle in some clues of a struggle, or if the players have Object Read or whatever, they'll discover a kidnapping from an obvious source. Or if you must have an encounter, you can have them discover the very last of the kidnappers teleporting out of there, battle and then interrogate and investigate where they took the bully.
Lycanthromancer 09-12-07, 02:12 PM	Depending on how close the PCs are to 'kicking in the door,' you could have them meet some infiltrators on the way to the psion's stronghold, and they help each other out for a 'shared objective' (ie, trashing the psion). When they have him viably beaten, have the infiltrators betray them, kidnap the psion, take whatever other goodies the PCs are after (treasure, etc), immobilize them with a high-level (but not unbeatable) spell/power-effect (AoE and mind-affecting; if some of the PCs fail their save, they can distract the others), then leave some sort of calling card ("Never mess with the ******s, you rubes!").
Racinante 09-12-07, 04:13 PM	Let the bad guys kill the psion. Then have the BBG teleport in and grab the body and teleport/plane shift out. Make sure the PCs know he was dead. BBG can revivify him on return home. Add story/flavor to season, or have two BBGs jump in, makes for a faster revivify. The first teleports and the second readies a teleport for when the first touches the dead psion.
PhaedrusXY 09-12-07, 06:47 PM	The OP has another thread on the "What's a DM to do?" board on this topic. He has house ruled all methods of Raise Dead out of the game, so that won't work.
Sagetim 09-12-07, 07:17 PM	The OP has another thread on the "What's a DM to do?" board on this topic. He has house ruled all methods of Raise Dead out of the game, so that won't work. my answer: subdual damage. It will blast the person, and make him look pretty dead. especially if he has some normal wounds before the subdual damage is dealt. Pretty sure there's a metamagic feat subdual spell, not sure if there's a metapsi equivalent. Perhaps Ego whip him into submission?
kyeudo 09-12-07, 07:28 PM	My suggestion? Carry the fight out normaly. Let them kill the psion you want to get ubducted. Then, later, they will find the psion still alive, and wonder how this happened. Have it revealed to them that the wounds they thought they had sustained fighting this psion had actualy been inflicted upon them by the BBEG and then they had had their memories modified by the BBEG so that they would believe that they had killed the psion and thus detour all attempts to find the psion. Voila! Instant plot hook for later, without distubing continuity or using Deus Ex Machina events.
Silver_Bulette 09-12-07, 07:52 PM	If they have to believe the guy died without leaving a trace, have him melt away like the Wicked Witch of the West. They will think it is for comedic effect, but no...
Sagetim 09-12-07, 08:00 PM	If they have to believe the guy died without leaving a trace, have him melt away like the Wicked Witch of the West. They will think it is for comedic effect, but no... that's what I've been trying to say. Have the guy die in such a way that they wouldn't get remains. Or maybe have the only remains be one of his hands, which later gets regenerated or something...or maybe he gets a hook hand and starts going 'arrrr'