Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Think0028 03-31-07, 01:14 PM	Magic Item Compendium. Has a few psionic items in it, mainly from the XPH. OF note is that they all require things like Create Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, and so on. Befuddled, I read the book some more, and it says that all magic and psionic item creation feats are transparent. Psionic Arms and Armor counts as Magic, Wondrous counts as Universal, and so on. Ok, this is just insane.
PhaedrusXY 03-31-07, 01:24 PM	Magic Item Compendium. Has a few psionic items in it, mainly from the XPH. OF note is that they all require things like Create Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, and so on. Befuddled, I read the book some more, and it says that all magic and psionic item creation feats are transparent. Psionic Arms and Armor counts as Magic, Wondrous counts as Universal, and so on. Ok, this is just insane.:OMG! No, no. That is 10 pounds of awesome in a 5 pound bag. It certainly makes Cerebremancers more appealing. They could make great item crafters.
JulesCARV 03-31-07, 01:31 PM	Does this mean that artificers are now both magical artificers and psionic artificers, all at once, and the Magic of Eberron psionificer is obsolete?
Istarion 03-31-07, 02:17 PM	It seems, but regular artificers don't get the absolutely fundamental Craft Cognizance Crystal. @V: I forgot to add the [/Sarcasm].
kyeudo 03-31-07, 02:37 PM	Who cares? Regular Artificers can craft Pearls of Power, which is noted as able to be used as a Cognizance Crystal in the XPH.
awaken_D_M_golem 03-31-07, 04:19 PM	WOW. There's a feat in the Dragon #349 psi- content section , that does this. I'll check it. But , it's requirements have some minor hoops to jump through. Feeling a little CO board-y , psionic items , when being constructed , don't require the spell/power to be "on" the maker. So a spell can be provided by someone or something else. The PsionicN just makes the item. Taken to it's logical extension, THIS biff lets psionics make all the magic items. and ... Wands stop at 4th level spells , but Dorjes go on up. Can you say Dorje-ificer of MeteorSwarm ?!
Istarion 03-31-07, 04:27 PM	The problem is that dorjes explicitly contain a single power, not a spell
sir_dwar 03-31-07, 06:04 PM	I call this an abomination to all that is psionic.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 03-31-07, 06:15 PM	Does this mean that artificers are now both magical artificers and psionic artificers, all at once, and the Magic of Eberron psionificer is obsolete? Not to mention that it makes artificers considerably more powerful. Personally, I will be ignoring this rule. Shame on you Wizards.
Millenia 03-31-07, 06:28 PM	Does this mean that artificers are now both magical artificers and psionic artificers, all at once, and the Magic of Eberron psionificer is obsolete? They'd still need to invest in Use Psionic Device in order to emulate the proper powers, though...
Dragonteuthis 03-31-07, 06:59 PM	Hmm how is this so awesome? I'm not seeing it...sure it saves a few feats, but other than that, does it really change anything?
Tempest Stormwind 03-31-07, 07:09 PM	Hmm how is this so awesome? I'm not seeing it...sure it saves a few feats, but other than that, does it really change anything?I see most of it as a boon for psionics, actually. Provided you can find a source for the spells, psionic item creators just got access to the huge list of magic items out there as things they can create. We don't have to hunt down a wizard every time we want that +2 Headband of Intellect -- we can craft it ourselves, with just a few castings of the spell itself (which will ultimately cost less than the half market price we save by making the item ourselves, meaning we emerge on top). On a related note, anyone notice how Shapers have Use Psionic Device? If the item creation feats are transparent, a case can be made for UPD being transparent with UMD (a common houserule in any psionic game that doesn't use nontransparency) -- meaning we can build everything ourselves and use it just fine, given enough resources. Somehow, that's a comforting fact. ....Shame that it's also the houserule I've been gaming under for about nine months now.
AntiDjinn 03-31-07, 07:48 PM	So what it amounts to is if an item says it requires Craft Wondrous Item and the spell Freedom of Movement to make, then having Craft Universal Item and the power Freedom of Movement, Psionic will let you do the same. Transparency of item crafting would also mean a manifester and caster should be able to work together on an item. If a sorcerer has the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat but doesn't know a specific spell required for the weapon he wants to make, but his buddy the wilder knows the equivalent power, then by the rules they can make the item provided both attend the entire crafting process.
Khan the Destroyer 03-31-07, 07:58 PM	We don't have to hunt down a wizard every time we want that +2 Headband of Intellect -- we can craft it ourselves And then say 'Hmmm... Headband of Intellect or Psicrown? Hmmm...' I mean, I'd choose the Headband but... I wish I could make that choice.
Deekin 04-01-07, 01:59 AM	And then say 'Hmmm... Headband of Intellect or Psicrown? Hmmm...' I mean, I'd choose the Headband but... I wish I could make that choice. Also in the MIC, Adding stuff like +2 Charisma to your cloak of resistance, or +4 Intellect to your Psi-crown of Creator.
Thomar_of_Uointer 04-01-07, 02:17 AM	Meh. It's a houserule I've seen thrown around a few times. Not really gamebreaking in any way I can think of (of course, the CO boards haven't gotten to it yet).
AntiDjinn 04-01-07, 04:46 AM	It depends on how far it extends. If it just means that anything that calls for a spell can be made with an equivalent power, then it won't make much difference. If it means any spell can go into a power framework and vice-versa then it makes for major changes. For example, does this ruling make it possible to craft a dorje with an arcane spell in it? This is important because dorjes cap at 9th rather than 4th level. So is it possible that a dorje could hold spells of a higher level than can be enchanted into a wand? Or if Craft Wand and Craft Dorje are now considered interchangeable skills, does it mean the 4th level spell cap on wands has been lifted? It always seemed silly; wands become useless fairly early, as does the feat to create them. Since both the material cost and XP cost continues to ramp with spell and caster level there is no change in balance for having higher level spells in a wand. Also, can arcane and divine spells now be embedded with Scribe Tattoo? The wide range of personal-effect spells would really open up the potential of tattoos.
Thomar_of_Uointer 04-01-07, 11:14 AM	Djores are a problem. However, wands do not suffer from the restriction on caster level increases. In this respect, they're different items with different roles. Tattoos also cannot be augmented (by the RAW). However, they work almost exactly like potions, and there have been so many variant rules on different kinds of potions (I believe that spell tiles and magical knots are mentioned in the DMG) that tattoos could just be one more kind of "anyone can use this magic on himself" item.
Dragonteuthis 04-01-07, 11:52 AM	I see most of it as a boon for psionics, actually. Provided you can find a source for the spells, psionic item creators just got access to the huge list of magic items out there as things they can create. We don't have to hunt down a wizard every time we want that +2 Headband of Intellect -- we can craft it ourselves... Interesting. I guess I was ahead of the curve then. That's how I always played. But then, the 3.0 psionics handbook strongly implied that approach anyway, and I just carried that over with me. Well neat. The feat transparency I hadn't considered, though, and that's a cool idea.
AntiDjinn 04-01-07, 12:12 PM	If a psionic tattoo is now a power framework that can hold any personal power or spell then the go-to guy for tattoos in any given area has become a cerebremancer who is erudite/wizard or a psychic theurge who is erudite/cleric (with Spell domain). The array of powers and spells he can offer will be staggering. Tattoo Artist: "Welcome. How may I serve you?" Adventurer: "I will be delving into ruins soon and may run into a variety of dangerous situations. I may need certain abilities and effects and may not be able to speak or reach into a pack to activate them. Say, most of the other tattoo scribes have a board listing the powers they can scribe, where is yours?" Tattoo Artist: "In my head. There really isn't enough room on the walls here. Simply tell me what situations you wish to prepare for or what results you might need and I will tell you how much it will cost. If I don't have what you need right now, I can almost certainly have it by tomorrow." Adventurer: "There is the possibility of a large fire-breathing beast. I also want to be prepared in case I am captured and bound. I was thinking maybe Freedom of Movement." Tattoo Artist: "I would suggest a tattoo of Vigor and one of Energy Adaptation, Specified: Fire. As for being bound or trapped, the energies of Freedom of Movement are beyond what may be contained in a tattoo, might I suggest the spell Amorphous Form? Now, as far as placement of each tattoo..."
DarknessEternal 04-01-07, 12:32 PM	Fortunately, my group has been playing this way for years. Of course, we also don't have Use Psionic Device or Psicraft either. If Use Magicc Device and Spellcraft are good enough for the other 10 kinds of magic, they are good enough for psionic magic.
RadicalTaoist 04-01-07, 01:10 PM	This limited item transparency is acceptable. They better not open up full transparency to Pearls of Power or the metamagic rods, though.
awaken_D_M_golem 04-01-07, 03:24 PM	Provided you can find a source for the spells, psionic item creators just got access to the huge list of magic items out there as things they can create ... with just a few castings of the spell itself (which will ultimately cost less than the half market price we save by making the item ourselves, meaning we emerge on top). Bingo On a related note, anyone notice how Shapers have Use Psionic Device? If the item creation feats are transparent, a case can be made for UPD being transparent with UMD ... meaning we can build everything ourselves and use it just fine, given enough rest. 1/2 of Magic Mantle The feat in Dragon #349 : Chameleon Crafting prereq's - one item crafting feat , 1st level spells , 1st level powers benefit --- make magic/psionic item or psionic/magic item at 1.5:1 up-cost ratio OK Lets break it. Magic version of Genesis for fast time trait. Thought Bottle for XP cost reduction. Flesh to Salt / "wal"-mart / whatever for gold. One Artifact for unusual effect , once a "day". equals ... at will Artifact power, say around 13th level. Hey , this might balance Fighters !!! :D
Thomar_of_Uointer 04-01-07, 03:28 PM	Yeah, if you consider CPsi to be canon. :rolleyes: awaken_D_M_golem, it doesn't break it if you have to pull an unspecified artifact into the mix, and genesising a fast time zone to speed up uses per day of any item is very difficult to abuse because plane shift is very inaccurate.
AntiDjinn 04-01-07, 03:31 PM	Any combo that calls for an artifact amounts to: "If the DM OKs it" You can't make an artifact and you will never find a particular one except when the DM chooses to make it available. And if the DM is even allowing Thought Bottle then nothing is broken because balance has already been dismissed from the game.
awaken_D_M_golem 04-01-07, 03:36 PM	Yeah, if you consider CPsi to be canon. :D Yes. And most especially the back cover ---> XPH is core awaken_D_M_golem, it doesn't break it if you have to pull an unspecified artifact into the mix, Fighter + Artifact = less than Wizard Fighter + Artifact + This = maybe equal to Wizard genesising a fast time zone to speed up uses per day of any item is very difficult to abuse because plane shift is very inaccurate. It's a very small plane. Just big enough to fit the genesis , you and the item. Demi-Plane of Artifact Breaking. Petitioners wander around saying "Don't do it, really, don't do it" over and over.
Tempest Stormwind 04-01-07, 03:43 PM	I really, really hate to have to say this... But please, PLEASE, learn to communicate clearer. Hopefully, in doing so, what you write will make one iota of sense. Furthermore, it would do you well to think about what you're developing before posting. For instance, this thread has NOTHING to do with fighters, and yet you bring them in. It has EVERYTHING to do with item creation, which you need caster/manifester ability to do, and you claim it boosts the fighter. You rely on Genesis and Plane Shift and use them incorrectly (Genesis cannot affect time, Plane Shift isn't reliable). You deal with stupid DM syndrome (infinite cash through some stolen CO board trick, time control, artifacts) as if it were the way the game is played. I wouldn't be so annoyed at this if you didn't do this every friggin' time you post. And you post faster than rabbits breed. I apologize if I sound harsh -- it's just frustrating to have to wade through pages of drivel to get to the gems in topics like that. It could be improved a thousandfold by taking the suggestions herein to heart.
DrMorganes 04-01-07, 03:44 PM	Magic Item Compendium. Has a few psionic items in it, mainly from the XPH. OF note is that they all require things like Create Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, and so on. Befuddled, I read the book some more, and it says that all magic and psionic item creation feats are transparent. Psionic Arms and Armor counts as Magic, Wondrous counts as Universal, and so on. Ok, this is just insane. No, it's not insane. It's merely an example of poor editing. Check the erratta. Odds are it's been noted already...
ArcTan 04-01-07, 03:46 PM	Magic Item Compendium. Has a few psionic items in it, mainly from the XPH. OF note is that they all require things like Create Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, and so on. Befuddled, I read the book some more, and it says that all magic and psionic item creation feats are transparent. Psionic Arms and Armor counts as Magic, Wondrous counts as Universal, and so on. Ok, this is just insane. What's so insane about it? It means that Craft Psionic Construct is now no longer one of the stupidest feats in the book. (It lets Psions make *one* -- ONE -- creature, the Psion-Killer, which, judging from the name and implied defined function, is not something a Psion would seem to be inclined to want standing around.)
ArcTan 04-01-07, 03:50 PM	Taken to it's logical extension, THIS biff lets psionics make all the magic items. and ... Wands stop at 4th level spells , but Dorjes go on up. Can you say Dorje-ificer of MeteorSwarm ?! No. Because the *feats* are transparent but not the items. Dorjes are still dorjes and can't contain arcane spells, and wands are still wands and can't contain psionic powers. They are similar enough that a psionificer can see how to put a spell into a wand if someone gives him the spell, but it does not combine all items into the same category. IIRC Spellcraft and Psicraft are still separate, deciphering a scroll is still different from addressing a power stone, etc.
awaken_D_M_golem 04-01-07, 03:53 PM	The feat in Dragon #349 : Chameleon Crafting prereq's - one item crafting feat , 1st level spells , 1st level powers benefit --- make magic/psionic item or psionic/magic item at 1.5:1 up-cost ratio Lets break it Sorry Tempest. Does the feat apply to this thread topic ? I checked my XPH real quick and I can't find a way for Fighters to make psionic items. or magic items. Somebody else makes it. And hands it to the fighter. If the item maker keeps it , very bad for balance. Is game balance part of this thread topic ? I post like rabbits' ____ , heh , I like it. :D
ArcTan 04-01-07, 03:55 PM	This limited item transparency is acceptable. They better not open up full transparency to Pearls of Power or the metamagic rods, though. The XPH says pearls of power are cognizance crystals.
ArcTan 04-01-07, 03:59 PM	No, it's not insane. It's merely an example of poor editing. Check the erratta. Odds are it's been noted already... Er, what? I don't see any MIC errata on the Wizards website -- it's pretty early for any such thing to have already come out. I don't have MIC, so I can't verify this directly, but it seems pretty clear the OP isn't just making an extrapolation from an editing mistake (as happens all too often) but actually found a section of text *explicitly stating* that magic and psionic crafting feats were now transparent. Which, frankly, I believe, because it seems eminently sensible to me. It may be better for flavor to preserve opacity there, but transparency is better for keeping the game actually playable. (Can anyone seriously claim that Craft Cognizance Crystal is, by itself, worth a feat?)
Dragonteuthis 04-01-07, 04:12 PM	Thought Bottle for XP cost reduction. Actually, you can't do that. Everything else looks valid, though.
AntiDjinn 04-01-07, 04:23 PM	What's so insane about it? It means that Craft Psionic Construct is now no longer one of the stupidest feats in the book. (It lets Psions make *one* -- ONE -- creature, the Psion-Killer, which, judging from the name and implied defined function, is not something a Psion would seem to be inclined to want standing around.) You would make a psion killer for the same reason a mage might make a magebane dagger: Because odds are your chief rival is of your same profession or at least related. Unlike the dagger, a construct is unlikely to fall under the control of an enemy or be turned against you. Also, if you are making lots of psionic items then the people who want to steal them are generally going to be other manifesters, so a psion killer in your vault can be a good deterrent (it still works for you despite the name). But yeah, you probably wouldn't sell them or want them in general circulation (unless you always leave a backdoor off switch for yourself). You will generally just make one or two as your own guards or to attack a specific enemy then reform the feat away (unless your DM rules you need to keep the feat to continue to be considered the crafter of a particular construct).
PhaedrusXY 04-01-07, 04:23 PM	Actually, you can't do that. Everything else looks valid, though.Yes, you can. You just have to be creative. For example: 1) use the Thought Bottle to "save" your XP, 2) make a bunch of magic items, 3) call a succubus via Planar Binding, and give her a big kiss, 4) voluntarily fail your saving throw against losing a level, 5) Reuse the thought bottle to get your level back. The Thought Bottle is probably the worst thought out item in all the D&D books. Antidjinn's point about a cerebremancer being able to put spells in psionic tattoos offers amazing possibilities... All those personal range spells that couldn't be put into potions before are now fair game.
calronmoonflower 04-01-07, 04:45 PM	What's so insane about it? It means that Craft Psionic Construct is now no longer one of the stupidest feats in the book. (It lets Psions make *one* -- ONE -- creature, the Psion-Killer, which, judging from the name and implied defined function, is not something a Psion would seem to be inclined to want standing around.) If you created the golem, then you don't have to worry about I doing anything you don't want it to. I find it surprising that they allowed the creation of psionic items with magical feats. It... seems... just... dumb.... The opposite should apply giving cerberamancers a huge boost. You could create just about any item with only half the feats.
munin 04-01-07, 07:01 PM	Magic Item Compendium...it says that all magic and psionic item creation feats are transparent... Not quite, and it's led to mildly wild speculation here. Here's the relevant text: For the purpose of meeting item prerequisites, a character who has the Craft Psionic Arms and Armor feat is treated as having Craft Magic Arms and Armor. Likewise, a character who has Craft Universal Item meets the prerequisite for items that require Craft Wondrous Item. I read this as strictly one-way: psionic crafters can craft psionic versions of magic items, thus gaining access to almost the entire inventory of wondrous items and weapon/armor/shield properties. It goes on to talk about how to substitute powers for spells in the prerequisites. No mention of crafting constructs, allowing arcane/divine crafters to create psionic items, etc. There certainly are some weirdnesses in MIC. Here's the prerequisites for Psionatrix: "Craft Wondrous Item, specialized in the appropriate discipline". Weird. Cognizance Crystal is listed and still requires the Craft Cognizance Crystal feat. Some psionic variant of runestaffs could be useful. A runestaff contains a few spells and is like an inexpensive staff except that you expend one of your spell slots instead of a charge, and each spell can only be used a certain number of times per day. Basically it allows you a limited form of spontaneous casting, like a cleric's ability to spontaneously cast a cure spell by losing a prepared spell. A psionic variant might have to be a little more expensive because the power point system is more flexible than the spell slot system. --munin "mildly wild"
Think0028 04-02-07, 12:50 AM	... huh. That's odd. One-way transparency. You're right, munin. Now that leads to the other question: why one-way?
Thomar_of_Uointer 04-02-07, 01:55 AM	... huh. That's odd. One-way transparency. You're right, munin. Now that leads to the other question: why one-way? HAH! Psionics-magic transparency always works both ways. It's discriminatory for it not to. It just means that psions can take advantage of psionic versions of spells that are item prerequisites to make magic items, and spellcasters can take advantage of spells that have psionic versions to make psionic items. It's actually quite elegant if you think about it, and it helps the Cerebremancer about as much as the mystic theurge is helped.
munin 04-02-07, 09:17 AM	... One-way transparency ... Now that leads to the other question: why one-way? ... Psionics-magic transparency always works both ways... I wouldn't even call this transparency ("transparency" is never mentioned in the text). It's simply saying, if you're a psionic crafter, and you like one of these magic items, adapt the prerequisites and make it. I think this is a good thing for psionics. It provides official support to the psionic community (gobs more official "psionic" items) without requiring extra work on the part of Wizards staff (which is important, since psionic material doesn't sell as well, and they have kids to feed). Personally, I love the power point and psionic focus mechanics of psionics, but I consider things like Psicraft, Use Psionic Device, Ps vs. Sp, and even the psionic subtype to be unnecessary fluff (seriously, we don't have a magic subtype for creatures who cast spells or have spell-like abilities, do we? well, magical beast type, of course). Craft Psionic Arms and Armor and Craft Universal Item easily fall into this category. Oh, and it's one-way because so many psionic items and psionic armor/shield/weapon properties have been re-presented in MIC as magic items and magic armor/shield/weapon properties, so it doesn't need to go the other way.
PhaedrusXY 04-02-07, 11:18 AM	Now that it is clarified, I think it is even more fantastic. :D
SlanderPanic 04-02-07, 11:36 AM	It just occurred to me that a society mind would make a fantastic tattoo-scriber for a number of very obvious reasons.
ArcTan 04-02-07, 12:05 PM	You would make a psion killer for the same reason a mage might make a magebane dagger: Because odds are your chief rival is of your same profession or at least related. Unlike the dagger, a construct is unlikely to fall under the control of an enemy or be turned against you. Also, if you are making lots of psionic items then the people who want to steal them are generally going to be other manifesters, so a psion killer in your vault can be a good deterrent (it still works for you despite the name). But yeah, you probably wouldn't sell them or want them in general circulation (unless you always leave a backdoor off switch for yourself). You will generally just make one or two as your own guards or to attack a specific enemy then reform the feat away (unless your DM rules you need to keep the feat to continue to be considered the crafter of a particular construct). Yes, I know. But my main point is that there's something ironic about the fact that -- barring stuff from sourcebooks I don't remember -- there's nothing else you can make as a Psion with Craft Psionic Construct, at all.
AntiDjinn 04-02-07, 04:19 PM	By the way, the book is also full of items that can make a psionic character's life easier, regardless of who made the item. The Robe of Steady Spellcasting gives a +5 competence bonus on Concentration checks (not just for spellcasting despite the name). So that is +5 to get focused, +5 when manifesting on the defensive, and +5 when manifesting under distracting conditions. If you expend focus to take 15 then you have achieved a result of 20 before even adding your ranks and Con mod.
JulesCARV 04-02-07, 04:40 PM	The worst part of the Psion-Killer, in my view, is that it requires two discipline-only powers from two seperate disciplines. It's not enough that you have to be a 15th level telepath with craft psionic arms and armor, craft universal item, and craft construct -- you also have to be a 15th level telepath with expanded knowledge (fabricate). And if you're a shaper -- y'know, the kind of guy who most plausibly should be crafting psionic golems -- then good luck. You'll have to take expanded knowledge (mind seed) at 18th or 20th level. Well, at least thank Xan Yae for psychic reformation.
AntiDjinn 04-02-07, 05:11 PM	You don't need to know both powers, you only need to have access to them. A telepath with the feat and Mind Seed could just have his friend the shaper come over and assist him. They do both have to be present throughout the crafting process. The one who actually has the feat spends the XP and is considered the construct's creator, anyone could pick up the material cost tab.
PhaedrusXY 04-02-07, 05:59 PM	You don't need to know both powers, you only need to have access to them. A telepath with the feat and Mind Seed could just have his friend the shaper come over and assist him. They do both have to be present throughout the crafting process. The one who actually has the feat spends the XP and is considered the construct's creator, anyone could pick up the material cost tab.Actually, I think either of them could expend the XP and be considered the creator, assuming it works like magic item creation.
awaken_D_M_golem 04-02-07, 06:10 PM	Actually, you can't do that. Everything else looks valid, though. Yeah, the Thought Bottle two step , cha-cha. I read this as strictly one-way: psionic crafters can craft psionic versions of magic items, thus gaining access to almost the entire inventory of wondrous items and weapon/armor/shield properties. It goes on to talk about how to substitute powers for spells in the prerequisites ... "mildly wild" I'll take it anyway. MwaO points out Universal Items are better than most others. Well, at least thank Xan Yae for psychic reformation. Thanks Xan Yae !! umm ... who is Xan Yae ? Tempest Stormwind, I checked your profile and ... you post 11.76 times a day. And I post 3.93 times a day. { ... warning : you are now approaching a joke ... } Your Rabbits have a higher Charisma than mine.
sir_dwar 04-02-07, 07:48 PM	I must also inform you that the entry for the psionitrix is flawed, not to mention a very, very insulting flaw. They mixed the term discipline with school. Not Cool. Still, I can see how the editors missed that one.
sir_dwar 04-02-07, 07:56 PM	Sorry. Just had to get that out of my system
munin 04-14-07, 07:56 PM	I must also inform you that the entry for the psionitrix is flawed, not to mention a very, very insulting flaw. They mixed the term discipline with school. Not Cool. Still, I can see how the editors missed that one. Copyediting requires a DC 15 Concentration check every round. It's doable, but it sucks.
Runepriest 04-15-07, 07:19 PM	Rhen why don't they use their and their psicrystal's psionic focuses and alternate between their psicrystal's and their own psionic focus?