Thoughtsinger and Psionic Rogue [Archive] - Wizards Community

Thoughtsinger and Psionic Rogue [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JohnnyArkham
04-18-08, 09:03 PM I'm sure it's been discussed, but I was wondering what the general board consensus is for the Thoughtsinger (http://www.bossythecow.com/TheThoughtsinger.pdf)?
and the Psionic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) ?
How effective and balanced are they, especially when placed against things like the Lurk or a well-crafted Psion?
celestialkin
04-18-08, 09:13 PM Where exactly is the Thoughtsinger from?
JohnnyArkham
04-18-08, 09:18 PM I believe it was originally written by the same gentleman that created the Eberron campaign setting.
celestialkin
04-18-08, 09:35 PM I believe it was originally written by the same gentleman that created the Eberron campaign setting.

Thanks.

Do you know where it was published?
InkBlot
04-19-08, 12:42 AM The Thoughtsinger was published on Keith "Hell Cow" Baker's personal website.

Edit: Here. It's in PDF format. (http://www.bossythecow.com/classes.htm)
JohnnyArkham
04-21-08, 06:59 AM Put another way, as I didn't receive any replies to the original query :lol:
What is the best way to build a 'bard-like' character (knowledge of legends and lore, able to motivate/influence allies and enemies) via Psionics. Is it the Thoughtsinger? Or an Ardent w/specific Mantles? Or, perhaps a Seer with the Bardic Knowledge alternate class feature?
Or, something else entirely?

Thanks folks
The_Mess
04-21-08, 12:08 PM Check out Society Mind from Dreamscarred Press. It's actually free! While it doesn't have the singing element of the bard, it is a booster-class, but with full psionic flavor.
JohnnyArkham
04-23-08, 11:18 PM Let's say one was committed to playing a Thoughtsinger. Further, let's say one truly enjoyed the blending of a broadcast empath psionicist with the role of the Bard which comes from the 'Singer.

Could anyone make any suggestions about a worthwhile PrC? A psionic conversion of a more traditional Bard PrC perhaps? Or possibly a standard Psi PrC which might be tweaked to allow for the 'singer's special abilities?

Just curious

Johnny A.
awaken_D_M_golem
04-24-08, 05:45 PM the original query
perhaps a Seer with the Bardic Knowledge alternate class feature?
Or, something else entirely?

Rogue or Psi-Rogue 1 / Psion 19 can be considered a standard skill monkey build.
Rogue 1 / Psion 15 / Slayer (or ?) 4 gets the 3rd attack.

Sub Bardic Knowledge for the 1st level feat, sure why not. Certainly not overpowered.
Mind's Eye has a bunch of substitutions for each specific Psion. This could be considered in line.
Tleilaxu_Ghola did a thread on Psi-Rogues, and the psi-rogue class itself does not appear on it. Hint, hint, and hint.

Thoughtsinger shorts on the all important high level spells/powers.
Thrallherd gets the Charm/Dominate stuff cheap, and gets better ~cohorts.
One of the Thralls could easily be a party buffer, and as a non-psionic be better at it than a Psi-X could be.

If you are insisting on Thoughtsinger, go Thrallherd as soon as possible.
Make the 1st Thrall a Rogue 1 / Psion X build.
Make the 2nd Thrall a fill in the blanker, when you get there.
or
Make the 1st Thrall a party buffer full caster.
Make the 2nd Thrall a Psi-Rogue 1 / Psion X build.
(share powers)

Have fun.
JohnnyArkham
04-25-08, 01:45 PM I'm feeling dense this morning.
What is the advantage of taking that first level of Rogue before the 19 levels of Seer? Sure, you get a nice chunk of skill points up front...but is that it?
awaken_D_M_golem
04-25-08, 03:44 PM Skills, skill list, armor, weapons, sneak

vs.

2 power points
JohnnyArkham
04-25-08, 05:10 PM Skills, skill list, armor, weapons, sneak

vs.

2 power points

Making sure I understand fully.

Skills- Up to 4 ranks in any Rogue Skills.

Skill List- Don't follow here. It's only a benefit when I take Rogue levels, yes?

Armor and Weapons- Gotcha

Sneak- 1d6

vs. 2 Power Points- And a Manifester Level, right?

Or does some of this depend fully on specific feat choices? I could definitely see the use of Practiced Manifester to save the ML. I think I might be missing a fundamental aspect of the skill list rules though :(
Omen_of_Peace
04-26-08, 03:34 AM Typically, people use the Rogue (or Factotum from Dungonscape) 1-level dip in conjunction with the Able Learner feat (Races of Destiny). Look it up if you have access to it.
JohnnyArkham
04-26-08, 09:20 AM Yeah, I have access to it. Sadly, the character in question is a Gnome and so is barred from that feat choice. I'm thinking straight Seer is the best, w/that in mind.
Augurer
04-26-08, 12:33 PM I guess it depends on the balance you want between martial capabilities and skill versatility against Psionic power. If you want to be akin to a Bard though, Telepath seems a closer fit than Seer.

I definitely wouldn't pair Thoughtsinger (or Psychic Rogue) and Psion, however. The ML won't stack, so you'd just have an ML 1 and ML 19. Rogue 1 [feat variant]/Telepath 19 seems the best route, IMO. It gives you a nice boost to skills and the ability to wear Light armor.

It's the route I would've taken for my current character, but the party already had a Wizard and Artificer/Cannith Wand Adept, and the 3rd was a Ranger. I opted for a Psychic Rogue/Elocator for a character that could melee a bit.
JohnnyArkham
04-26-08, 12:45 PM Would you say that the Rogue 1/Telepath 19 beats a Thoughtsinger (link in original post) 20?
And why exactly? Also, I'm assuming that the fact the Thoughtsinger has access to all Martial Weapons is a typo...
Augurer
04-26-08, 01:46 PM Would you say that the Rogue 1/Telepath 19 beats a Thoughtsinger (link in original post) 20?
And why exactly? Also, I'm assuming that the fact the Thoughtsinger has access to all Martial Weapons is a typo...
I'd say it depends on the balance you want between martial ability and psionic ability. I'd think a Thoughtsinger would have the same proficiencies as a Bard. The Thoughtsinger will have much better ranks in social skills, and a much broader selection of other skills.

Rogue 1/Telepath 19 gets you the skill points to be a "social adept", and it's nearly a full manifester. As a Gnome, however, it would result in the multi-class XP penalty for most of your career. Humans, Changelings, Halflings, and Kalashtar would do well with a Rogue 1/Telepath 19 build.

If you have to deal with the multi-class penalty rules, I'd opt for either straight Telepath 20, or Thoughtsinger 20. I can't think of any PrC that really fits the Bard theme, and base classes will just result in XP penalties.

Which you choose should be based upon the type of character you want to portray. If you want a "caster" with mediocre social skills, go with the Telepath 20. If you want a psionic Bard, go with the Thoughtsinger.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JohnnyArkham 04-18-08, 09:03 PM	I'm sure it's been discussed, but I was wondering what the general board consensus is for the Thoughtsinger (http://www.bossythecow.com/TheThoughtsinger.pdf)? and the Psionic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) ? How effective and balanced are they, especially when placed against things like the Lurk or a well-crafted Psion?
celestialkin 04-18-08, 09:13 PM	Where exactly is the Thoughtsinger from?
JohnnyArkham 04-18-08, 09:18 PM	I believe it was originally written by the same gentleman that created the Eberron campaign setting.
celestialkin 04-18-08, 09:35 PM	I believe it was originally written by the same gentleman that created the Eberron campaign setting. Thanks. Do you know where it was published?
InkBlot 04-19-08, 12:42 AM	The Thoughtsinger was published on Keith "Hell Cow" Baker's personal website. Edit: Here. It's in PDF format. (http://www.bossythecow.com/classes.htm)
JohnnyArkham 04-21-08, 06:59 AM	Put another way, as I didn't receive any replies to the original query :lol: What is the best way to build a 'bard-like' character (knowledge of legends and lore, able to motivate/influence allies and enemies) via Psionics. Is it the Thoughtsinger? Or an Ardent w/specific Mantles? Or, perhaps a Seer with the Bardic Knowledge alternate class feature? Or, something else entirely? Thanks folks
The_Mess 04-21-08, 12:08 PM	Check out Society Mind from Dreamscarred Press. It's actually free! While it doesn't have the singing element of the bard, it is a booster-class, but with full psionic flavor.
JohnnyArkham 04-23-08, 11:18 PM	Let's say one was committed to playing a Thoughtsinger. Further, let's say one truly enjoyed the blending of a broadcast empath psionicist with the role of the Bard which comes from the 'Singer. Could anyone make any suggestions about a worthwhile PrC? A psionic conversion of a more traditional Bard PrC perhaps? Or possibly a standard Psi PrC which might be tweaked to allow for the 'singer's special abilities? Just curious Johnny A.
awaken_D_M_golem 04-24-08, 05:45 PM	the original query perhaps a Seer with the Bardic Knowledge alternate class feature? Or, something else entirely? Rogue or Psi-Rogue 1 / Psion 19 can be considered a standard skill monkey build. Rogue 1 / Psion 15 / Slayer (or ?) 4 gets the 3rd attack. Sub Bardic Knowledge for the 1st level feat, sure why not. Certainly not overpowered. Mind's Eye has a bunch of substitutions for each specific Psion. This could be considered in line. Tleilaxu_Ghola did a thread on Psi-Rogues, and the psi-rogue class itself does not appear on it. Hint, hint, and hint. Thoughtsinger shorts on the all important high level spells/powers. Thrallherd gets the Charm/Dominate stuff cheap, and gets better ~cohorts. One of the Thralls could easily be a party buffer, and as a non-psionic be better at it than a Psi-X could be. If you are insisting on Thoughtsinger, go Thrallherd as soon as possible. Make the 1st Thrall a Rogue 1 / Psion X build. Make the 2nd Thrall a fill in the blanker, when you get there. or Make the 1st Thrall a party buffer full caster. Make the 2nd Thrall a Psi-Rogue 1 / Psion X build. (share powers) Have fun.
JohnnyArkham 04-25-08, 01:45 PM	I'm feeling dense this morning. What is the advantage of taking that first level of Rogue before the 19 levels of Seer? Sure, you get a nice chunk of skill points up front...but is that it?
awaken_D_M_golem 04-25-08, 03:44 PM	Skills, skill list, armor, weapons, sneak vs. 2 power points
JohnnyArkham 04-25-08, 05:10 PM	Skills, skill list, armor, weapons, sneak vs. 2 power points Making sure I understand fully. Skills- Up to 4 ranks in any Rogue Skills. Skill List- Don't follow here. It's only a benefit when I take Rogue levels, yes? Armor and Weapons- Gotcha Sneak- 1d6 vs. 2 Power Points- And a Manifester Level, right? Or does some of this depend fully on specific feat choices? I could definitely see the use of Practiced Manifester to save the ML. I think I might be missing a fundamental aspect of the skill list rules though :(
Omen_of_Peace 04-26-08, 03:34 AM	Typically, people use the Rogue (or Factotum from Dungonscape) 1-level dip in conjunction with the Able Learner feat (Races of Destiny). Look it up if you have access to it.
JohnnyArkham 04-26-08, 09:20 AM	Yeah, I have access to it. Sadly, the character in question is a Gnome and so is barred from that feat choice. I'm thinking straight Seer is the best, w/that in mind.
Augurer 04-26-08, 12:33 PM	I guess it depends on the balance you want between martial capabilities and skill versatility against Psionic power. If you want to be akin to a Bard though, Telepath seems a closer fit than Seer. I definitely wouldn't pair Thoughtsinger (or Psychic Rogue) and Psion, however. The ML won't stack, so you'd just have an ML 1 and ML 19. Rogue 1 [feat variant]/Telepath 19 seems the best route, IMO. It gives you a nice boost to skills and the ability to wear Light armor. It's the route I would've taken for my current character, but the party already had a Wizard and Artificer/Cannith Wand Adept, and the 3rd was a Ranger. I opted for a Psychic Rogue/Elocator for a character that could melee a bit.
JohnnyArkham 04-26-08, 12:45 PM	Would you say that the Rogue 1/Telepath 19 beats a Thoughtsinger (link in original post) 20? And why exactly? Also, I'm assuming that the fact the Thoughtsinger has access to all Martial Weapons is a typo...
Augurer 04-26-08, 01:46 PM	Would you say that the Rogue 1/Telepath 19 beats a Thoughtsinger (link in original post) 20? And why exactly? Also, I'm assuming that the fact the Thoughtsinger has access to all Martial Weapons is a typo... I'd say it depends on the balance you want between martial ability and psionic ability. I'd think a Thoughtsinger would have the same proficiencies as a Bard. The Thoughtsinger will have much better ranks in social skills, and a much broader selection of other skills. Rogue 1/Telepath 19 gets you the skill points to be a "social adept", and it's nearly a full manifester. As a Gnome, however, it would result in the multi-class XP penalty for most of your career. Humans, Changelings, Halflings, and Kalashtar would do well with a Rogue 1/Telepath 19 build. If you have to deal with the multi-class penalty rules, I'd opt for either straight Telepath 20, or Thoughtsinger 20. I can't think of any PrC that really fits the Bard theme, and base classes will just result in XP penalties. Which you choose should be based upon the type of character you want to portray. If you want a "caster" with mediocre social skills, go with the Telepath 20. If you want a psionic Bard, go with the Thoughtsinger.