Thrallherd and Leadership [Archive] - Wizards Community

Thrallherd and Leadership [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Greymalken
11-12-07, 01:21 PM I am a little perplexed about the Thrallherd and was wondering if someone might be able to answer my question. Does Thrallherd count as the Leadership feat for the purpose of determining the prerequisites of other prestige classes and certain feats? I realize that if you take Thrallherd and already have the Leadership feat you lose the feat effectively upon entering the prestige class. But what if you have used the Leadership feat prior to entering the Thrallherd prestige class to enter another prestige class like Legendary Leader or acquired Leader feats from the Heroes of Battle. You no longer have the prerequisites for those feats or prestige classes unless Thrallherd counts as Leadership for that purpose. I know it's a strange inquiry, but I was just hoping someone might have an answer since it seems like since Thrallherd effectively replaces the Leadership feat it should be able to be used in lieu of it.
DracoPhoenix
11-12-07, 01:31 PM I've not seen anything explict to that effect (doesn't mean it's not out there!), but I'd probably be inclined to allow it to be treated as Leadership.

That said, unless anyone has something concrete, all that means is ask your DM.

In way of precedent, Midnight dodge (MOI) allows you to treat it as dodge for pre-reqs, and there are a few other similar situations (which I can't think of atm :( ). Usually class abilities that say "can be treated as..."
TheKeyofE
11-12-07, 08:43 PM In way of precedent, Midnight dodge (MOI) allows you to treat it as dodge for pre-reqs, and there are a few other similar situations (which I can't think of atm :( ). Usually class abilities that say "can be treated as..."

Desert Wind Dodge and Stone Power from Tome of Battle count as Dodge and Power Attack, respectively. A soulknife's Free Draw class ability counts as Quick Draw. There's tons more if I really wanted to dig.

But talk to your DM. A good DM should allow it (unless you tried to abuse it somehow).
Tedronai
11-12-07, 09:06 PM The issue being discussed here is whether or not the Thrallherd's ability counts as a 'virtual feat' equivalent to Leadership for the purposes of prerequisites.
The definition of a 'virtual feat' is a class ability, racial ability, or passive magic item benefit that provides the effect of a feat without actually providing that feat.
Ex.
An ability that provides a +1 unnamed bonus on attack rolls with a particular weapon would be a virtual feat replicating the effect Weapon Focus.

The thrallherd's ability does not strictly replicate the effect of Leadership. It's almost always BETTER than that. So, technically, the answer is no. Is it close enough? I would say so, but that's no more than a personal opinion.
DracoPhoenix
11-13-07, 03:31 AM The issue being discussed here is whether or not the Thrallherd's ability counts as a 'virtual feat' equivalent to Leadership for the purposes of prerequisites.
The definition of a 'virtual feat' is a class ability, racial ability, or passive magic item benefit that provides the effect of a feat without actually providing that feat.
Ex.
An ability that provides a +1 unnamed bonus on attack rolls with a particular weapon would be a virtual feat replicating the effect Weapon Focus.

The thrallherd's ability does not strictly replicate the effect of Leadership. It's almost always BETTER than that. So, technically, the answer is no. Is it close enough? I would say so, but that's no more than a personal opinion.

But consider that if you had Leadership and then took Thrall Herd, you explicitly lose Leadership. That could be compared to feats as class features which say "if you already have this, you get nothing" - or in some cases (typically the evasion line), you get the next one up the tree.
CrimsonDeath
11-13-07, 11:19 AM But consider that if you had Leadership and then took Thrall Herd, you explicitly lose Leadership. That could be compared to feats as class features which say "if you already have this, you get nothing" - or in some cases (typically the evasion line), you get the next one up the tree.

Actually, by RAW, nothing new happens if you gain Evasion twice. Maybe you were thinking of Uncanny Dodge?
DracoPhoenix
11-13-07, 11:50 AM Actually, by RAW, nothing new happens if you gain Evasion twice. Maybe you were thinking of Uncanny Dodge?

More than likely :)
ninja1
11-13-07, 02:44 PM Or thinking of the Thaumaturgist cohort.
hunterc311
11-14-07, 12:49 AM On the other hand,

Mechanically, Leadership and Thrallherd are basically the game. However, conceptually, they are a bit different.

A character with Leadership has a strong reputation and public image, making it a prerequisite for feats that connect to, in some way, reputation and leadership, or the ability to lead by voice and action, and so forth.

A character with Thrallherd has no reputation persay, just a psychic wave that resonates from them and affects the subconscious minds of others. The PC does not necessarily have a strong public image, or the ability to lead by voice and action.

A feat that is designed around reputation would have nothing to do with Thrallherd. Most people don't even know who the PC is, since a Thrallherd only really affects a limited number of people with their psychic message. A PC with Leadership, however, is known to many and has a strong public image, affecting countless people across the land through the PC's travels, while only a select few of those people actually want to go as far as to serve under the PC with Leadership.

So I'd say it's not just an automatic "yes" in this case. Some feats may be specifically designed around a concept that Thrallherd does not possess, but Leadership does. Therefore, Thrallherd can't always count as Leadership.
CrimsonDeath
11-14-07, 01:00 AM Interesting idea, Hunter. So, do you figure the reason Thrallherds lose the Leadership feat (if they have it) is because the Cohort and Followers find the Thrall and Believers to be creepy? Or is it that the Cohort and Followers are subtly repelled by the same psychic call that attracts Thralls and Believers?
ninja1
11-14-07, 01:43 PM If I could throw in my two cents... the most likely reason that Thrallherds lose Leadership is most likely game balance... It would be like taking Leadership twice.

As the flavor text isn't spelled out for us, it would be up to each DM to describe their own flavor text that adequately represents the game mechanics as it occurs in their particular campaign.
Zathress
11-15-07, 04:14 AM If I could throw in my two cents... the most likely reason that Thrallherds lose Leadership is most likely game balance... It would be like taking Leadership twice.

There really isn't much debate as to why thralherds can't have leadership. The reason is obviously game balance. The question is does being a thrallherd count as having the leadership feat as a preq for other preq for othe PrC and abilities.
ninja1
11-15-07, 10:44 AM Sorry Zathress, I was addressing CrimsonDeath's question about the reason "why?"... As far as the pre-req question, I would say that by RAW the Thrallherd ability is not Leadership.

However, as a DM, I would consider it on a case-by-case basis. In my games and for most cases, I'd say it is probably reasonable to allow thrallherd to satisfy the Leadership requirement.
CrimsonDeath
11-15-07, 03:14 PM Sorry Zathress, I was addressing CrimsonDeath's question about the reason "why?"

Which was primarily fluff-oriented. The Leadership feat is already powerful enough, and the Thrallherd already has Leadership on steroids and is technically still able to gain Undead Leadership. A Thrallherd with Leadership and Undead Leadership is essentially a one-man party of five, with an enormous support network of flunkies.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Greymalken 11-12-07, 01:21 PM	I am a little perplexed about the Thrallherd and was wondering if someone might be able to answer my question. Does Thrallherd count as the Leadership feat for the purpose of determining the prerequisites of other prestige classes and certain feats? I realize that if you take Thrallherd and already have the Leadership feat you lose the feat effectively upon entering the prestige class. But what if you have used the Leadership feat prior to entering the Thrallherd prestige class to enter another prestige class like Legendary Leader or acquired Leader feats from the Heroes of Battle. You no longer have the prerequisites for those feats or prestige classes unless Thrallherd counts as Leadership for that purpose. I know it's a strange inquiry, but I was just hoping someone might have an answer since it seems like since Thrallherd effectively replaces the Leadership feat it should be able to be used in lieu of it.
DracoPhoenix 11-12-07, 01:31 PM	I've not seen anything explict to that effect (doesn't mean it's not out there!), but I'd probably be inclined to allow it to be treated as Leadership. That said, unless anyone has something concrete, all that means is ask your DM. In way of precedent, Midnight dodge (MOI) allows you to treat it as dodge for pre-reqs, and there are a few other similar situations (which I can't think of atm :( ). Usually class abilities that say "can be treated as..."
TheKeyofE 11-12-07, 08:43 PM	In way of precedent, Midnight dodge (MOI) allows you to treat it as dodge for pre-reqs, and there are a few other similar situations (which I can't think of atm :( ). Usually class abilities that say "can be treated as..." Desert Wind Dodge and Stone Power from Tome of Battle count as Dodge and Power Attack, respectively. A soulknife's Free Draw class ability counts as Quick Draw. There's tons more if I really wanted to dig. But talk to your DM. A good DM should allow it (unless you tried to abuse it somehow).
Tedronai 11-12-07, 09:06 PM	The issue being discussed here is whether or not the Thrallherd's ability counts as a 'virtual feat' equivalent to Leadership for the purposes of prerequisites. The definition of a 'virtual feat' is a class ability, racial ability, or passive magic item benefit that provides the effect of a feat without actually providing that feat. Ex. An ability that provides a +1 unnamed bonus on attack rolls with a particular weapon would be a virtual feat replicating the effect Weapon Focus. The thrallherd's ability does not strictly replicate the effect of Leadership. It's almost always BETTER than that. So, technically, the answer is no. Is it close enough? I would say so, but that's no more than a personal opinion.
DracoPhoenix 11-13-07, 03:31 AM	The issue being discussed here is whether or not the Thrallherd's ability counts as a 'virtual feat' equivalent to Leadership for the purposes of prerequisites. The definition of a 'virtual feat' is a class ability, racial ability, or passive magic item benefit that provides the effect of a feat without actually providing that feat. Ex. An ability that provides a +1 unnamed bonus on attack rolls with a particular weapon would be a virtual feat replicating the effect Weapon Focus. The thrallherd's ability does not strictly replicate the effect of Leadership. It's almost always BETTER than that. So, technically, the answer is no. Is it close enough? I would say so, but that's no more than a personal opinion. But consider that if you had Leadership and then took Thrall Herd, you explicitly lose Leadership. That could be compared to feats as class features which say "if you already have this, you get nothing" - or in some cases (typically the evasion line), you get the next one up the tree.
CrimsonDeath 11-13-07, 11:19 AM	But consider that if you had Leadership and then took Thrall Herd, you explicitly lose Leadership. That could be compared to feats as class features which say "if you already have this, you get nothing" - or in some cases (typically the evasion line), you get the next one up the tree. Actually, by RAW, nothing new happens if you gain Evasion twice. Maybe you were thinking of Uncanny Dodge?
DracoPhoenix 11-13-07, 11:50 AM	Actually, by RAW, nothing new happens if you gain Evasion twice. Maybe you were thinking of Uncanny Dodge? More than likely :)
ninja1 11-13-07, 02:44 PM	Or thinking of the Thaumaturgist cohort.
hunterc311 11-14-07, 12:49 AM	On the other hand, Mechanically, Leadership and Thrallherd are basically the game. However, conceptually, they are a bit different. A character with Leadership has a strong reputation and public image, making it a prerequisite for feats that connect to, in some way, reputation and leadership, or the ability to lead by voice and action, and so forth. A character with Thrallherd has no reputation persay, just a psychic wave that resonates from them and affects the subconscious minds of others. The PC does not necessarily have a strong public image, or the ability to lead by voice and action. A feat that is designed around reputation would have nothing to do with Thrallherd. Most people don't even know who the PC is, since a Thrallherd only really affects a limited number of people with their psychic message. A PC with Leadership, however, is known to many and has a strong public image, affecting countless people across the land through the PC's travels, while only a select few of those people actually want to go as far as to serve under the PC with Leadership. So I'd say it's not just an automatic "yes" in this case. Some feats may be specifically designed around a concept that Thrallherd does not possess, but Leadership does. Therefore, Thrallherd can't always count as Leadership.
CrimsonDeath 11-14-07, 01:00 AM	Interesting idea, Hunter. So, do you figure the reason Thrallherds lose the Leadership feat (if they have it) is because the Cohort and Followers find the Thrall and Believers to be creepy? Or is it that the Cohort and Followers are subtly repelled by the same psychic call that attracts Thralls and Believers?
ninja1 11-14-07, 01:43 PM	If I could throw in my two cents... the most likely reason that Thrallherds lose Leadership is most likely game balance... It would be like taking Leadership twice. As the flavor text isn't spelled out for us, it would be up to each DM to describe their own flavor text that adequately represents the game mechanics as it occurs in their particular campaign.
Zathress 11-15-07, 04:14 AM	If I could throw in my two cents... the most likely reason that Thrallherds lose Leadership is most likely game balance... It would be like taking Leadership twice. There really isn't much debate as to why thralherds can't have leadership. The reason is obviously game balance. The question is does being a thrallherd count as having the leadership feat as a preq for other preq for othe PrC and abilities.
ninja1 11-15-07, 10:44 AM	Sorry Zathress, I was addressing CrimsonDeath's question about the reason "why?"... As far as the pre-req question, I would say that by RAW the Thrallherd ability is not Leadership. However, as a DM, I would consider it on a case-by-case basis. In my games and for most cases, I'd say it is probably reasonable to allow thrallherd to satisfy the Leadership requirement.
CrimsonDeath 11-15-07, 03:14 PM	Sorry Zathress, I was addressing CrimsonDeath's question about the reason "why?" Which was primarily fluff-oriented. The Leadership feat is already powerful enough, and the Thrallherd already has Leadership on steroids and is technically still able to gain Undead Leadership. A Thrallherd with Leadership and Undead Leadership is essentially a one-man party of five, with an enormous support network of flunkies.