Thrallherd question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Thrallherd question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Sekkin
05-26-07, 03:55 AM What classes can the followers be is it limited to the ncp classes from the dmg or can they have pc classes too?

& do most DMs let their players choose the class of the followers and thralls or not?
Explosive_Zombie
05-26-07, 04:52 AM Typically the DM has a lot of say over followers. But as far as class, they work just like the Leadership feat so, yes they are limited to NPC classes.
Witch
05-26-07, 05:53 AM Leadership doesn't restrict followers to NPC classes.
Sekkin
05-26-07, 06:07 AM i looked and I think that Witch is right i didnt see anything accept that they are npc, obviously.
Explosive_Zombie
05-26-07, 06:10 AM I'm forgetting the book at the moment but I want to say it is the DMGII. There are special rules that allow you to have followers with PC class level. Long story short, if you want a level 1 follower/believer to have a PC level you must use a higher level follower slot... think of it as humanoid metamagic for lack of a better term. That said, under normal conditions, follower/believers are restricted to NPC class unless your DM allows otherwise. I'll keep looking so I can give you better information than my spotty memory.
Sekkin
05-26-07, 06:15 AM thanks
Sekkin
05-26-07, 06:17 AM btw can you point out wher eit says they have to be of a np class, i am still unable to find it
crizhII
05-26-07, 09:17 AM btw can you point out wher eit says they have to be of a np class, i am still unable to find it

I second this, I've never been able to find any such text in the DMG.

In fact it says, in the text about cohorts;

"so that the NPC works for the characters."

clearly implying that, despite having PC classes, they are still NPC's.

It further goes on to say in the followers text;

"Followers are similar to cohorts, except that they're generally low-level NPCs."

Implying that the only difference between followers and cohorts is that followers are generally low level.

The fact that they are NPCs is neither here nor there.
Kapitanturtle
05-26-07, 03:10 PM I'm forgetting the book at the moment but I want to say it is the DMGII. There are special rules that allow you to have followers with PC class level. Long story short, if you want a level 1 follower/believer to have a PC level you must use a higher level follower slot... think of it as humanoid metamagic for lack of a better term. That said, under normal conditions, follower/believers are restricted to NPC class unless your DM allows otherwise. I'll keep looking so I can give you better information than my spotty memory.

Epic Level Handbook under Epic Leadership :)
Explosive_Zombie
05-26-07, 03:18 PM Haven't found what I'm looking for yet, but I found a really nice feat if I wind up being wrong, Extra Followers from the Heros of Battle... doubles the number of followers you get... I'd let it work for believers too.
Sekkin
05-26-07, 03:50 PM hmmmm heroes of battle....... wish i hate the book, ill have to borrow it or just go out and buy it. Thanks again for checking and helping me out.
Jaid
05-26-07, 04:09 PM Epic Level Handbook under Epic Leadership :)which is based off of 3.0 leadership, which did explicitly say NPC classes only (in fact, i think it even went so far as to imply it should only be commoners, experts, and warriors).

3.5 has no such restriction.
Kapitanturtle
05-26-07, 04:38 PM which is based off of 3.0 leadership, which did explicitly say NPC classes only (in fact, i think it even went so far as to imply it should only be commoners, experts, and warriors).

3.5 has no such restriction.

Yeah, I knew that was based off of 3.0 stuff, was just pointing the guy to the info he was looking for :)

My question is, and I think the overall question, this: Is the restriction lifted because it's not mentioned anywhere that they can only be npc? Or was there an actual line somewhere that says they can take pc classes?
Sekkin
05-26-07, 05:10 PM exactly

Also I talked to my dm and he decided on me creating the thrall and he made the decision that the believers will have PC level but he chooses them, and I am fine with that
Sekkin
05-26-07, 05:12 PM ok and a new question...... Can a thrallherd have a thrallherd as a threall and if so does the thrall keep there thrall and believers? LOL hehe :D
RikuKupo
05-26-07, 10:50 PM I would think so. Cohorts/thralls are even less restricted than followers/believers. So I would say it would be alright, but your thrall thats 5 levels lower than you would have a thrall 5 levels lower than him... so the chain wouldnt last very long
crizhII
05-27-07, 03:38 AM I would think so. Cohorts/thralls are even less restricted than followers/believers. So I would say it would be alright, but your thrall thats 5 levels lower than you would have a thrall 5 levels lower than him... so the chain wouldnt last very long

Why would your Thrall be 5 levels lower than you?

Thralls are limited to 1 level below you and tend to max that out due to Thrallherd level counting double on the table.
CrimsonDeath
05-27-07, 03:38 AM But the thing is, most thralls will be only one or two levels lower than their thrallherds. The chain can actually go pretty far; if all the thralls are thrallherds all the way down, the top thrallherd can wind up controlling the population of a good-sized city-- particularly if they all also take Undead Leadership and (assuming the DM rules that it applies) Extra Followers. I think somebody on the CO board worked out an exact population once upon a time.
Sekkin
05-27-07, 04:07 AM Awesome, ok my level is 8 so it will only work..... erp 3 times cuz you have to be atleast level 5 to put 8 ranks into knowledge psionic. but ya sounds great but i need to talk to the dm , but he did say "you can create your thrall" so ..... ya AWESOME
RikuKupo
05-28-07, 12:13 AM Why would your Thrall be 5 levels lower than you?

Thralls are limited to 1 level below you and tend to max that out due to Thrallherd level counting double on the table.

Ok so I don't know the exact numbers, and I didn't want to overestimate the cheese factor :D
turalisj
05-28-07, 12:30 AM Typically the DM has a lot of say over followers. But as far as class, they work just like the Leadership feat so, yes they are limited to NPC classes.

No, no they aren't. But you'll be pulling believers from random areas, so most of them are going to be commoners or experts.

A fun thing to do is just keep sendinf believers after the BBEG's fortress. Eventualy, it will get to the point that you are pulling them from his repitore. :D
Syrkres
05-29-07, 04:50 PM Similar questions on Thralls and Believers. Is that can a Thrall take PrC?

From page 104 of the DMG starting on the second paragraph "There are no limitations on the class, race, or gender of a character's cohort, nor limit's to the number of cohorts who can be employed by a character."

So I assume from that line, that since a Thrall is like a Cohort that they can in fact take PrCs?
teshen
05-29-07, 05:21 PM ok and a new question...... Can a thrallherd have a thrallherd as a threall and if so does the thrall keep there thrall and believers? LOL hehe :D
Well, that depends...

Thrallherd (Ex): A thrallherd who has just entered the class sends out a subtle psychic call for servants, and that call is answered. Essentially, the character gains something akin to the Leadership feat, but with some important differences.
. . .
A thrallherd cannot take the Leadership feat; if the character already has it, the feat is lost and replaced by this ability; those who were previously cohorts and followers go their separate ways, and those who are more mentally pliable show up later to take up roles as thralls and believers. A thrallherd’s first thrall and believers arrive within 24 hours of her entry into this class; likewise, lost thralls and believers are replaced within 24 hours. . .

emphasis mine
Is a thrallherd mentally pliable? He seems more of a leader who imposes his psychic will on others... I'm not suggesting that a thrallherd is evil, because they can be of any alignment... but they are definitely not weak or mentally pliable... which seems to preclude another strongwilled personality taking up a role of subservience.
turalisj
05-29-07, 05:30 PM It's up to the DM. But if I was your DM, I would say no. That leads to the Legion, where you have a chain of thrallherds leading thousands of believers.
Snarkbone
05-30-07, 08:39 AM Hey guys, I originally made this post on FR Classes board, but that's not really a good place for this kind of help aparently, and I didn't want to cross post multiple threads, how fortunate it is that I can piggy back on this one :)

I've been looking over psionic classes for a while now, and I have a few points of confusion when it comes to Thrallherd PrC. Though its description is using fairly neutral language about the way in which Threalls and believers come to the Thrallherd, I am still a bit confused about how willful that subconscious connection between them is.

Is it like a quicker way of finding like minds (i.e. Googling instead of newspaper ads), and thus there is no enmity between master and servant. Or is it more like "compatible" mind becomes dominated by Thrallherd by some default action that's inherent with Thrallherd PrC?

The context in which this comes up is: "what would happen if thrall/believer leveled up or Thrallherd leveled down or psionic connection is severed in some other way?". Once the level of thrall/believer exceeds max level a Thrallherd can handle (or Thrallherd gets negative levels through some effect), thrall/extra believers could technically go free, but will they go "ZOMG you manipulated me! Me smash! You die!" or will it be more along the lines of "Well... it's been fun, kthxbye!"?
crizhII
05-30-07, 11:14 AM It depends a lot on the PC in question rather than anything else. There definitely isn't anything mechanical about the class that suggests compulsion.

There is a world of difference between service and servitude.

A cleric serves a God but he does so willingly a Mindbenders Thrall (no relation ) serves against his will.

A Thrallherd's Thrall (despite the name) is someone that is already 'eager to be led, happy to follow' and 'anxious to do their will.'

They appear in answer to an 'unconcious call to service' and, although in no way compelled, are 'completely under the thrallherd's control.'

A thrallherd's class ability does not exert any control it merely attracts those already inately actively anxious and eager to serve.

I would rule that if a Thrallherd lost access to his class abilities for any reason that he would lose the ability to replace Thralls/believers but would not lose control of those already in his service.

A thrallherds control over his Thralls/believers is not a function of his class abilities but of the inate psychological make up of the Thralls/believers.
Agispsi
05-30-07, 04:13 PM Ive got a question about the thrallherd: why would you ever become a thrallherd when you can just take the leadership feat to do the same thing or better(since you can upgrade your leadership abilities with other leadership feats). It seems kinda like a waste of a lvl to me or is ther something im missing (like some way to improve the thrall herds abilities)
Seeker of Lore
05-30-07, 04:38 PM Agispsi: I think the reasons people tend to go for thrallherd (assuming you go through all 10) sometimes is this:

1. Getting the benefits of four feats for the cost of one (or two, depending) since the abilities mimic Leadership and the feats that allow to have another cohort and make each of them one level stronger than normally allowed (-1 and -2 instead of -2 and -3 character level).

2. You don't need to work to gain/replace your followers, unlike leadership. You also don't have to worry about the Leadership modifiers. For evil PCs that like using people as meat shields or sacrifices, this is really nice.

3. Dominate and Charm added to your powers known list, plus the option to "free augment" dominate. This is one of the things that attracts Wilders to the class.

These are all my opinion of course, but I can see these as good reasons to go into the class instead of taking the leadership feat. My Wilder took it for the extra powers, but being able to have the thralls fill gaps in your party is awesome too.
turalisj
05-30-07, 05:00 PM Because: Why would I want to recruit followers, who would be low in number and potentialy think of me as a poor leader. Why do that when I can have a nearly infinite supply of believers, and send them at my foes en mass.
ninja1
05-31-07, 10:48 AM I would disagree with crizhII in that I believe the control over the believers and thralls does have a pshycic coersion component (along the lines of the psionic charm and psionic dominate which are also class features)...

I would say that "completely under the thrallherd's control" would also hint at the psychic compulsion aspect.

I would think that there is only a finite number of those willing to give you their worldly possesions and kill themselves just because you (a stranger) asked them nicely.

I think it is like the nature/nurture debate... the believers and thralls have a mix of both innate, sheep-like, tendancy to follow... and the telepathic nudge to obey.
JulesCARV
05-31-07, 01:41 PM As a DM, how would you run the PCs encountering an NPC thrallherd who is potentially recruiting them as thralls?

I see several paths:

Coercive, take #1: PCs get will save to avoid becoming thralls:

DM: As Tim the Thrallherd talks about his intention to create a new world free of war, poverty, and disease, you can't help but feel an uplifting surge coursing through your heart. Make a will save, y'all.

Druid PC: *rolls* 19.

Barbarian PC *rolls*: 8

DM: Okay. Barbarian PC, you become a thrall.

Barbarian PC: Huh? When I was a thrallherd, no will saves were involved -- I could get cleric or druid thralls just as easily as barbarian thralls.

Coercive, take #2: DM fiat decides whether PCs become thralls:

DM: You feel inspired by Tim, and feel a desire to follow him. You become his thralls.

Druid PC: Do we get a save or anything?

DM: No, that's not how the thrallherd ability works.

Druid PC: Hmm... good point.

Non-coercive: PCs choose whether to become thralls as an RP choice:

(The DM roleplays Tim the Thrallherd as being almost supernaturally eloquent and persuasive, and his discussion of his dream of bringing peace and unity to the world seems to go far beyond platitudes and empty rhetoric and present concrete and practical ideas.)

(The PCs ask some questions, which Tim answers persuasively)

DM: Finally, after your talk, Tim asks you, "I know that this is much to ask you, so I would not ask if I did not believe that the fate of this world depended on it, but I want to know if you can join me in my quest. You possess both the unique abilities and pure hearts that I need. Well you aid me?"

Druid PC: Hmm... let me think about it.

Barbarian PC: No, I think not, although I wish you luck on your quest.

Druid PC: I think I will join you. I do not know how long I will be able to serve you, but I will do my best.
ninja1
05-31-07, 01:59 PM As a DM, how would you run the PCs encountering an NPC thrallherd who is potentially recruiting them as thralls?
As a DM, I wouldn't have an NPC do that...

;)

I'd just hit them with a Psionic Dominate or Psionic Charm depending on what kind of outcome I wanted the NPC to have.... and then use the game mechanics listed for those powers.

To be really evil, I'd reserve some thrall/believer space for the PC's family and friends...

:D
InkBlot
05-31-07, 01:59 PM Non-coercive. A Thrallherd doesn't get to choose his thralls. Rather, his thralls chose him. He can try to get more wizard thralls by hanging around the wizard's guild, build there's no guarantee. He especialy can't just pick out one person and say "he's my thrall now."

Ninja makes a good point. The Thrallherd could just dominate or charm the PCs. Personally, I wouldn't do that either. I don't like using charm/dominate/diplomacy on player characters. If I ever did have to do so, I'd make sure there was an immediate opportunity to rescue the one or two PCs that fail their will saves. I'd cheat so that whoever rolled highest wouldn't fail no matter what the DC is, and I'd make sure the wizard/psion/whatever was weak enough that the characters who failed their saves could be rescued right away.
ninja1
05-31-07, 02:11 PM InkBlot, I would not say that coercive means that the Thrallherd gets to chose...

Rather, there are those that will respond (determined by the DM, granted), but once an NPC becomes a thrall it has no choice... no free will. Normally creatures have free will even if they chose not to make a choice.

How about this... if an NPC truely wanted to follow you because of her own wishes, there would be a paradox if you tried to release her. If it was her choice, then you could not commander her to never obey you? If that were the case, one would not need to be a Thrallherd at all...

Personally, I subscribe to this train of thought: Preliminary Thrallherd Guide (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=668622)
JulesCARV
05-31-07, 02:22 PM I suppose that I go with non-coercive too. A thrallherd is basically like someone with the leadership feat. Better at it (at least until epic levels), but not of a fundamentally different nature (it's notable that Thrallherd is an (ex), not (su) ability).

Thus, if a PC finds an NPC thrallherd persuasive, they can help him, and might effectively take up a "thrall" slot (although they might continue to gain experience independently).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sekkin 05-26-07, 03:55 AM	What classes can the followers be is it limited to the ncp classes from the dmg or can they have pc classes too? & do most DMs let their players choose the class of the followers and thralls or not?
Explosive_Zombie 05-26-07, 04:52 AM	Typically the DM has a lot of say over followers. But as far as class, they work just like the Leadership feat so, yes they are limited to NPC classes.
Witch 05-26-07, 05:53 AM	Leadership doesn't restrict followers to NPC classes.
Sekkin 05-26-07, 06:07 AM	i looked and I think that Witch is right i didnt see anything accept that they are npc, obviously.
Explosive_Zombie 05-26-07, 06:10 AM	I'm forgetting the book at the moment but I want to say it is the DMGII. There are special rules that allow you to have followers with PC class level. Long story short, if you want a level 1 follower/believer to have a PC level you must use a higher level follower slot... think of it as humanoid metamagic for lack of a better term. That said, under normal conditions, follower/believers are restricted to NPC class unless your DM allows otherwise. I'll keep looking so I can give you better information than my spotty memory.
Sekkin 05-26-07, 06:15 AM	thanks
Sekkin 05-26-07, 06:17 AM	btw can you point out wher eit says they have to be of a np class, i am still unable to find it
crizhII 05-26-07, 09:17 AM	btw can you point out wher eit says they have to be of a np class, i am still unable to find it I second this, I've never been able to find any such text in the DMG. In fact it says, in the text about cohorts; "so that the NPC works for the characters." clearly implying that, despite having PC classes, they are still NPC's. It further goes on to say in the followers text; "Followers are similar to cohorts, except that they're generally low-level NPCs." Implying that the only difference between followers and cohorts is that followers are generally low level. The fact that they are NPCs is neither here nor there.
Kapitanturtle 05-26-07, 03:10 PM	I'm forgetting the book at the moment but I want to say it is the DMGII. There are special rules that allow you to have followers with PC class level. Long story short, if you want a level 1 follower/believer to have a PC level you must use a higher level follower slot... think of it as humanoid metamagic for lack of a better term. That said, under normal conditions, follower/believers are restricted to NPC class unless your DM allows otherwise. I'll keep looking so I can give you better information than my spotty memory. Epic Level Handbook under Epic Leadership :)
Explosive_Zombie 05-26-07, 03:18 PM	Haven't found what I'm looking for yet, but I found a really nice feat if I wind up being wrong, Extra Followers from the Heros of Battle... doubles the number of followers you get... I'd let it work for believers too.
Sekkin 05-26-07, 03:50 PM	hmmmm heroes of battle....... wish i hate the book, ill have to borrow it or just go out and buy it. Thanks again for checking and helping me out.
Jaid 05-26-07, 04:09 PM	Epic Level Handbook under Epic Leadership :)which is based off of 3.0 leadership, which did explicitly say NPC classes only (in fact, i think it even went so far as to imply it should only be commoners, experts, and warriors). 3.5 has no such restriction.
Kapitanturtle 05-26-07, 04:38 PM	which is based off of 3.0 leadership, which did explicitly say NPC classes only (in fact, i think it even went so far as to imply it should only be commoners, experts, and warriors). 3.5 has no such restriction. Yeah, I knew that was based off of 3.0 stuff, was just pointing the guy to the info he was looking for :) My question is, and I think the overall question, this: Is the restriction lifted because it's not mentioned anywhere that they can only be npc? Or was there an actual line somewhere that says they can take pc classes?
Sekkin 05-26-07, 05:10 PM	exactly Also I talked to my dm and he decided on me creating the thrall and he made the decision that the believers will have PC level but he chooses them, and I am fine with that
Sekkin 05-26-07, 05:12 PM	ok and a new question...... Can a thrallherd have a thrallherd as a threall and if so does the thrall keep there thrall and believers? LOL hehe :D
RikuKupo 05-26-07, 10:50 PM	I would think so. Cohorts/thralls are even less restricted than followers/believers. So I would say it would be alright, but your thrall thats 5 levels lower than you would have a thrall 5 levels lower than him... so the chain wouldnt last very long
crizhII 05-27-07, 03:38 AM	I would think so. Cohorts/thralls are even less restricted than followers/believers. So I would say it would be alright, but your thrall thats 5 levels lower than you would have a thrall 5 levels lower than him... so the chain wouldnt last very long Why would your Thrall be 5 levels lower than you? Thralls are limited to 1 level below you and tend to max that out due to Thrallherd level counting double on the table.
CrimsonDeath 05-27-07, 03:38 AM	But the thing is, most thralls will be only one or two levels lower than their thrallherds. The chain can actually go pretty far; if all the thralls are thrallherds all the way down, the top thrallherd can wind up controlling the population of a good-sized city-- particularly if they all also take Undead Leadership and (assuming the DM rules that it applies) Extra Followers. I think somebody on the CO board worked out an exact population once upon a time.
Sekkin 05-27-07, 04:07 AM	Awesome, ok my level is 8 so it will only work..... erp 3 times cuz you have to be atleast level 5 to put 8 ranks into knowledge psionic. but ya sounds great but i need to talk to the dm , but he did say "you can create your thrall" so ..... ya AWESOME
RikuKupo 05-28-07, 12:13 AM	Why would your Thrall be 5 levels lower than you? Thralls are limited to 1 level below you and tend to max that out due to Thrallherd level counting double on the table. Ok so I don't know the exact numbers, and I didn't want to overestimate the cheese factor :D
turalisj 05-28-07, 12:30 AM	Typically the DM has a lot of say over followers. But as far as class, they work just like the Leadership feat so, yes they are limited to NPC classes. No, no they aren't. But you'll be pulling believers from random areas, so most of them are going to be commoners or experts. A fun thing to do is just keep sendinf believers after the BBEG's fortress. Eventualy, it will get to the point that you are pulling them from his repitore. :D
Syrkres 05-29-07, 04:50 PM	Similar questions on Thralls and Believers. Is that can a Thrall take PrC? From page 104 of the DMG starting on the second paragraph "There are no limitations on the class, race, or gender of a character's cohort, nor limit's to the number of cohorts who can be employed by a character." So I assume from that line, that since a Thrall is like a Cohort that they can in fact take PrCs?
teshen 05-29-07, 05:21 PM	ok and a new question...... Can a thrallherd have a thrallherd as a threall and if so does the thrall keep there thrall and believers? LOL hehe :D Well, that depends... Thrallherd (Ex): A thrallherd who has just entered the class sends out a subtle psychic call for servants, and that call is answered. Essentially, the character gains something akin to the Leadership feat, but with some important differences. . . . A thrallherd cannot take the Leadership feat; if the character already has it, the feat is lost and replaced by this ability; those who were previously cohorts and followers go their separate ways, and those who are more mentally pliable show up later to take up roles as thralls and believers. A thrallherd’s first thrall and believers arrive within 24 hours of her entry into this class; likewise, lost thralls and believers are replaced within 24 hours. . . emphasis mine Is a thrallherd mentally pliable? He seems more of a leader who imposes his psychic will on others... I'm not suggesting that a thrallherd is evil, because they can be of any alignment... but they are definitely not weak or mentally pliable... which seems to preclude another strongwilled personality taking up a role of subservience.
turalisj 05-29-07, 05:30 PM	It's up to the DM. But if I was your DM, I would say no. That leads to the Legion, where you have a chain of thrallherds leading thousands of believers.
Snarkbone 05-30-07, 08:39 AM	Hey guys, I originally made this post on FR Classes board, but that's not really a good place for this kind of help aparently, and I didn't want to cross post multiple threads, how fortunate it is that I can piggy back on this one :) I've been looking over psionic classes for a while now, and I have a few points of confusion when it comes to Thrallherd PrC. Though its description is using fairly neutral language about the way in which Threalls and believers come to the Thrallherd, I am still a bit confused about how willful that subconscious connection between them is. Is it like a quicker way of finding like minds (i.e. Googling instead of newspaper ads), and thus there is no enmity between master and servant. Or is it more like "compatible" mind becomes dominated by Thrallherd by some default action that's inherent with Thrallherd PrC? The context in which this comes up is: "what would happen if thrall/believer leveled up or Thrallherd leveled down or psionic connection is severed in some other way?". Once the level of thrall/believer exceeds max level a Thrallherd can handle (or Thrallherd gets negative levels through some effect), thrall/extra believers could technically go free, but will they go "ZOMG you manipulated me! Me smash! You die!" or will it be more along the lines of "Well... it's been fun, kthxbye!"?
crizhII 05-30-07, 11:14 AM	It depends a lot on the PC in question rather than anything else. There definitely isn't anything mechanical about the class that suggests compulsion. There is a world of difference between service and servitude. A cleric serves a God but he does so willingly a Mindbenders Thrall (no relation ) serves against his will. A Thrallherd's Thrall (despite the name) is someone that is already 'eager to be led, happy to follow' and 'anxious to do their will.' They appear in answer to an 'unconcious call to service' and, although in no way compelled, are 'completely under the thrallherd's control.' A thrallherd's class ability does not exert any control it merely attracts those already inately actively anxious and eager to serve. I would rule that if a Thrallherd lost access to his class abilities for any reason that he would lose the ability to replace Thralls/believers but would not lose control of those already in his service. A thrallherds control over his Thralls/believers is not a function of his class abilities but of the inate psychological make up of the Thralls/believers.
Agispsi 05-30-07, 04:13 PM	Ive got a question about the thrallherd: why would you ever become a thrallherd when you can just take the leadership feat to do the same thing or better(since you can upgrade your leadership abilities with other leadership feats). It seems kinda like a waste of a lvl to me or is ther something im missing (like some way to improve the thrall herds abilities)
Seeker of Lore 05-30-07, 04:38 PM	Agispsi: I think the reasons people tend to go for thrallherd (assuming you go through all 10) sometimes is this: 1. Getting the benefits of four feats for the cost of one (or two, depending) since the abilities mimic Leadership and the feats that allow to have another cohort and make each of them one level stronger than normally allowed (-1 and -2 instead of -2 and -3 character level). 2. You don't need to work to gain/replace your followers, unlike leadership. You also don't have to worry about the Leadership modifiers. For evil PCs that like using people as meat shields or sacrifices, this is really nice. 3. Dominate and Charm added to your powers known list, plus the option to "free augment" dominate. This is one of the things that attracts Wilders to the class. These are all my opinion of course, but I can see these as good reasons to go into the class instead of taking the leadership feat. My Wilder took it for the extra powers, but being able to have the thralls fill gaps in your party is awesome too.
turalisj 05-30-07, 05:00 PM	Because: Why would I want to recruit followers, who would be low in number and potentialy think of me as a poor leader. Why do that when I can have a nearly infinite supply of believers, and send them at my foes en mass.
ninja1 05-31-07, 10:48 AM	I would disagree with crizhII in that I believe the control over the believers and thralls does have a pshycic coersion component (along the lines of the psionic charm and psionic dominate which are also class features)... I would say that "completely under the thrallherd's control" would also hint at the psychic compulsion aspect. I would think that there is only a finite number of those willing to give you their worldly possesions and kill themselves just because you (a stranger) asked them nicely. I think it is like the nature/nurture debate... the believers and thralls have a mix of both innate, sheep-like, tendancy to follow... and the telepathic nudge to obey.
JulesCARV 05-31-07, 01:41 PM	As a DM, how would you run the PCs encountering an NPC thrallherd who is potentially recruiting them as thralls? I see several paths: Coercive, take #1: PCs get will save to avoid becoming thralls: DM: As Tim the Thrallherd talks about his intention to create a new world free of war, poverty, and disease, you can't help but feel an uplifting surge coursing through your heart. Make a will save, y'all. Druid PC: rolls 19. Barbarian PC rolls: 8 DM: Okay. Barbarian PC, you become a thrall. Barbarian PC: Huh? When I was a thrallherd, no will saves were involved -- I could get cleric or druid thralls just as easily as barbarian thralls. Coercive, take #2: DM fiat decides whether PCs become thralls: DM: You feel inspired by Tim, and feel a desire to follow him. You become his thralls. Druid PC: Do we get a save or anything? DM: No, that's not how the thrallherd ability works. Druid PC: Hmm... good point. Non-coercive: PCs choose whether to become thralls as an RP choice: (The DM roleplays Tim the Thrallherd as being almost supernaturally eloquent and persuasive, and his discussion of his dream of bringing peace and unity to the world seems to go far beyond platitudes and empty rhetoric and present concrete and practical ideas.) (The PCs ask some questions, which Tim answers persuasively) DM: Finally, after your talk, Tim asks you, "I know that this is much to ask you, so I would not ask if I did not believe that the fate of this world depended on it, but I want to know if you can join me in my quest. You possess both the unique abilities and pure hearts that I need. Well you aid me?" Druid PC: Hmm... let me think about it. Barbarian PC: No, I think not, although I wish you luck on your quest. Druid PC: I think I will join you. I do not know how long I will be able to serve you, but I will do my best.
ninja1 05-31-07, 01:59 PM	As a DM, how would you run the PCs encountering an NPC thrallherd who is potentially recruiting them as thralls? As a DM, I wouldn't have an NPC do that... ;) I'd just hit them with a Psionic Dominate or Psionic Charm depending on what kind of outcome I wanted the NPC to have.... and then use the game mechanics listed for those powers. To be really evil, I'd reserve some thrall/believer space for the PC's family and friends... :D
InkBlot 05-31-07, 01:59 PM	Non-coercive. A Thrallherd doesn't get to choose his thralls. Rather, his thralls chose him. He can try to get more wizard thralls by hanging around the wizard's guild, build there's no guarantee. He especialy can't just pick out one person and say "he's my thrall now." Ninja makes a good point. The Thrallherd could just dominate or charm the PCs. Personally, I wouldn't do that either. I don't like using charm/dominate/diplomacy on player characters. If I ever did have to do so, I'd make sure there was an immediate opportunity to rescue the one or two PCs that fail their will saves. I'd cheat so that whoever rolled highest wouldn't fail no matter what the DC is, and I'd make sure the wizard/psion/whatever was weak enough that the characters who failed their saves could be rescued right away.
ninja1 05-31-07, 02:11 PM	InkBlot, I would not say that coercive means that the Thrallherd gets to chose... Rather, there are those that will respond (determined by the DM, granted), but once an NPC becomes a thrall it has no choice... no free will. Normally creatures have free will even if they chose not to make a choice. How about this... if an NPC truely wanted to follow you because of her own wishes, there would be a paradox if you tried to release her. If it was her choice, then you could not commander her to never obey you? If that were the case, one would not need to be a Thrallherd at all... Personally, I subscribe to this train of thought: Preliminary Thrallherd Guide (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=668622)
JulesCARV 05-31-07, 02:22 PM	I suppose that I go with non-coercive too. A thrallherd is basically like someone with the leadership feat. Better at it (at least until epic levels), but not of a fundamentally different nature (it's notable that Thrallherd is an (ex), not (su) ability). Thus, if a PC finds an NPC thrallherd persuasive, they can help him, and might effectively take up a "thrall" slot (although they might continue to gain experience independently).