Thrallherds and Leadership [Archive] - Wizards Community

Thrallherds and Leadership [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
tiluvias99
02-16-07, 07:44 PM Alright... It's generally assumed that the Leadership-Like ability of the Thrallherd is better than Leadership. Why is that? Is it simply because of the cause stating that Thralls and Believers are replaced in 24 hours if lost? Or is it the extra Thrall at 10th level?

What about with feats such as Extra Followers and Improved Cohort? I would think those would make up for those by quite a lot. Or do these feats actually also apply to the Thrallherd's believers and thralls as well? I don't think they do, considering that they require the "Leadership Feat", and I don't think that the Thrallherd's class ability is treated as Leadersip for the purposes of pre-requisites.

And... also... how does the Thrallherd interact with the Epic Leadership Feat?
As far as I can tell, the Thrallherd cannot ever gain any followers greater than 6th level, and can only gain 2 of them. Note how on the table it simply says "25 or higher", and there is no other table for them to use past 25, even for epic play. Also note that the Epic Leadership Feat requires the character to have the leadership feat first, which, like with Extra Followers and Improved Cohort, means that Thrallherds cannot qualify for Epic Leadership. They also cannot qualify for things like Legendary Commander.

Doesn't the availability of Extra Followers, Improved Cohort, Epic Leadership, and Legendary Commander make Leadership a much better option than taking the Thrallherd PrC?
Tempest Stormwind
02-16-07, 08:19 PM Alright... It's generally assumed that the Leadership-Like ability of the Thrallherd is better than Leadership. Why is that? Is it simply because of the cause stating that Thralls and Believers are replaced in 24 hours if lost? Or is it the extra Thrall at 10th level?

What about with feats such as Extra Followers and Improved Cohort? I would think those would make up for those by quite a lot. Or do these feats actually also apply to the Thrallherd's believers and thralls as well? I don't think they do, considering that they require the "Leadership Feat", and I don't think that the Thrallherd's class ability is treated as Leadersip for the purposes of pre-requisites.The fact that Thrallherd levels count double toward Leadership, that your reputation doesn't penalize your minions, and the minions are replaced within 24 hours are all superior to Leadership.

Leadership only pulls ahead in that it's got better support, particularly in Heroes of Battle.And... also... how does the Thrallherd interact with the Epic Leadership Feat?
As far as I can tell, the Thrallherd cannot ever gain any followers greater than 6th level, and can only gain 2 of them. Note how on the table it simply says "25 or higher", and there is no other table for them to use past 25, even for epic play. Also note that the Epic Leadership Feat requires the character to have the leadership feat first, which, like with Extra Followers and Improved Cohort, means that Thrallherds cannot qualify for Epic Leadership. They also cannot qualify for things like Legendary Commander.

Doesn't the availability of Extra Followers, Improved Cohort, Epic Leadership, and Legendary Commander make Leadership a much better option than taking the Thrallherd PrC?There's very little Epic support for psionics; an Epic Thrallherd progression or feat would solve that problem nicely.

It's sort of like... Hmm... psion and wizard (assuming you've banned most of the broken spells). Psions are easier to use and have fewer BS-like things attached to them, but there's ALWAYS more support for the wizard, which will make it superior to anyone who's trying.
tiluvias99
02-16-07, 11:35 PM The fact that Thrallherd levels count double toward Leadership, that your reputation doesn't penalize your minions, and the minions are replaced within 24 hours are all superior to Leadership.

Leadership only pulls ahead in that it's got better support, particularly in Heroes of Battle.Well, for the first thing... does it really matter? It's not that hard to get 25 or higher with leadership. I guess with the Thrallherd it's easier, but I've found that in general, past the mid/upper levels, Leadership Score (and Thrallherd score as well) can far exceed the cap at 25 with only minor amounts of optimization.

For the next thing, I've found that normally my leadership modifiers (like reputation) have a net positive bonus... is this not normally the case?

How fast are minions replaced with the leadership feat? Or is it that with the thrallherd it's set as 24 hours while leadership (as far as I can tell) is a DM call?It's sort of like... Hmm... psion and wizard (assuming you've banned most of the broken spells). Psions are easier to use and have fewer BS-like things attached to them, but there's ALWAYS more support for the wizard, which will make it superior to anyone who's trying.Hm, good analogy.
Tempest Stormwind
02-16-07, 11:47 PM Well, for the first thing... does it really matter? It's not that hard to get 25 or higher with leadership. I guess with the Thrallherd it's easier, but I've found that in general, past the mid/upper levels, Leadership Score (and Thrallherd score as well) can far exceed the cap at 25 with only minor amounts of optimization.True... but some modifiers are permanent and up to the DM's call.For the next thing, I've found that normally my leadership modifiers (like reputation) have a net positive bonus... is this not normally the case?Do you establish a base and stay there for most of your career, or do you move around like an adventurer? Oops, there's a net drop right there. How fast are minions replaced with the leadership feat? Or is it that with the thrallherd it's set as 24 hours while leadership (as far as I can tell) is a DM call?How fast can you go out recruiting?
furious kender
02-17-07, 12:06 AM In the powers to faerun book, which deal entirely with leadership, it implies that it can take months of game time to get followers back. Also, having followers and cohorts killed for stupid reasons, like you do if you see them as fodder, will give ever growing reputation penalties.

Thrallherd is superior to leadership, but leadership is powerful in its own right.
ElIsRa
02-17-07, 09:13 PM As many have alluded to, the Thrallherd ability is superior if only because of the quick replacement of believers. This is especially true if you are evil. Where sacking followers to make magic items is a really good way to stop seeing the followers coming in, the Thrallherd doesn't have this limitation. Also throwing waves of believers against impenetrable defenses to distract those inside from the mercenary force that is circling around to crush them from behind, also quickly over powers the leadership ability.

That said, I personally like the leadership feat better, just because it doesn't take up levels that I could be putting to a better use somewhere else.
Halaku
02-19-07, 12:15 PM Overall i would say thrallherd is a better option if you want the minions, but this does bring up an old question of mine, could a thrallherd take undead leadership from libris mortis?
Tralan
02-19-07, 09:19 PM Yeah, he could, but I beleive the Undead Leadership feat says that it counts as Leadership, except where noted. Therefor, it'd be eaten up by the Thrallherd class.
sooperspook
02-20-07, 08:44 AM Is there any word on whether any of the Leadership boosting feats also apply to the Thrallherd?
Thomas_Covenant
02-20-07, 09:31 AM Is there any word on whether any of the Leadership boosting feats also apply to the Thrallherd?Many outright will not apply, do the way the Thrallherd's pseudo-Leadership does not allow modifiers normally.

As always, check the specific text of the Leadership boosting feat/ability, but many will outright not apply.
tiluvias99
02-20-07, 05:40 PM There's also the question of whether or not the Thrallherd's class ability allows him to qualify for the Leadership based feats. Even if he could apply them, if that doesn't work then he's out of luck because Thrallherds can never take leadership and immediately lose it if they had it before.

As for Undead Leadership, it says nothing about being treated as Leadership. The only connection is in the line "You attract a cohort and followers as if you had taken the leadership feat."

Still though... I guess technically Undead Leadership would not qualify you for Leadership Boost feats either. But then again, technically, a Thrallherd could still take it.
Mkire
02-22-07, 02:23 AM Quick epic level thrallherd progression
11 +1 manifester
12 +1 manifester
13 +1 manifester
14 +1 manifester
15 +1 manifester, bonus feat
16 +1 manifester
17 +1 manifester
18 +1 manifester
19 +1 manifester
20 Threefold master, bonus feat

at 20th level thrallherd, you'd have three thralls, at -1, -2, and -3 levels below you, and so on and so on.

use the same chart as epic leadership for believers. It'd need to be play tested, but i think it'd work
Halaku
02-23-07, 12:13 PM This brings up an interesting idea for a BBEG in my head that i'll have to stat out once im at home with my books.
Tiefling incarnate4 psion1 fiend of possesion 5 thrallheard 1 necrocarnate 9
add in tomb tainted soul and undead leadership.. hmm....
saucercrab
02-24-07, 04:16 PM Mkire,
Back in mid-January, some of us hashed out an epic thrallherd progression, here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=11126816).
JulesCARV
02-24-07, 04:39 PM Also, a Thaumaturgist's Planar Cohort replaces leadership, but not thrallherd.

So a Thrallherd 10/Thaumaturgist 5 can have two thralls and a planar cohort.

Of course... I can't figure out how someone would actually be a thrallherd 10/thaumaturgist 5, except in, maybe, 23 levels. (ardent 1/cleric 3/psychic theurge 4/thrallherd 10/thaumaturgist 5?)
Lokiyn
02-24-07, 09:21 PM Would something like this fit the bill?

Character Level .. Class Lev Bab Fs Rs Ws 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th Specials
Character Level 01 Sorcerer 01 0 0 0 2 5 3 — — — — — — — — Summon Familiar
Character Level 02 Sorcerer 02 1 0 0 3 6 4 — — — — — — — — —
Character Level 03 Sorcerer 03 1 1 1 3 6 5 — — — — — — — — —
Character Level 04 Sorcerer 04 2 1 1 4 6 6 3 — — — — — — — —
Character Level 05 Sorcerer 05 2 1 1 4 6 6 4 — — — — — — — —
Character Level 06 Sorcerer 06 3 2 2 5 6 6 5 3 — — — — — — —
Character Level 07 Sorcerer 07 3 2 2 5 6 6 6 4 — — — — — — —
Character Level 08 Sorcerer 08 4 2 4 6 6 6 6 5 3 — — — — — —
Character Level 09 Thaum 01 4 2 4 8 6 6 6 6 4 — — — — — Improved ally
Character Level 10 Thaum 02 5 2 4 9 6 6 6 6 5 3 — — — — Augment Summoning
Character Level 11 Thrall 01 5 2 4 11 6 6 6 6 5 3 — — — — Thrallherd
Character Level 12 Thaum 03 5 3 5 11 6 6 6 6 6 4 — — — — Extended summoning
Character Level 13 Thaum 04 6 3 5 12 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 — — — Contingent conjuration
Character Level 14 Thaum 05 6 3 5 12 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 — — — Planar cohort
Character Level 15 Sorcerer 09 6 4 6 12 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 — — —
Character Level 16 Sorcerer 10 7 4 6 13 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 — — —
Character Level 17 Sorcerer 11 7 4 6 13 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 — —
Character Level 18 Sorcerer 12 8 5 7 14 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 — —
Character Level 19 Sorcerer 13 8 5 7 14 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 —
Character Level 20 Sorcerer 14 9 5 7 15 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 —

Must be a Kalashtar with a wisdom of 13 of course.

So for roughly the equivalent of a +1 La you get Thrallherd (which syncs nicely with your charisma) and a planar cohort.

Leadership Score Max Co 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th
Level 11 20 14th 50 5 3 2 1 —
Level 12 21 15th 60 6 3 2 1 1
Level 13 22 15th 75 7 4 2 2 1
Level 14 23 16th 90 9 5 3 2 1
Level 15 24 17th 110 11 6 3 2 1
Level 16 25 17th 135 13 7 4 2 2
Level 17 25 17th 135 13 7 4 2 2
Level 18 25 17th 135 13 7 4 2 2
Level 19 25 17th 135 13 7 4 2 2
Level 20 25 17th 135 13 7 4 2 2

There is also some nice synergy with the planar cohort for evil characters (assuming you can find an evil god with the summoning domain) with replacable sacrifices to feed an outsider

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tiluvias99 02-16-07, 07:44 PM	Alright... It's generally assumed that the Leadership-Like ability of the Thrallherd is better than Leadership. Why is that? Is it simply because of the cause stating that Thralls and Believers are replaced in 24 hours if lost? Or is it the extra Thrall at 10th level? What about with feats such as Extra Followers and Improved Cohort? I would think those would make up for those by quite a lot. Or do these feats actually also apply to the Thrallherd's believers and thralls as well? I don't think they do, considering that they require the "Leadership Feat", and I don't think that the Thrallherd's class ability is treated as Leadersip for the purposes of pre-requisites. And... also... how does the Thrallherd interact with the Epic Leadership Feat? As far as I can tell, the Thrallherd cannot ever gain any followers greater than 6th level, and can only gain 2 of them. Note how on the table it simply says "25 or higher", and there is no other table for them to use past 25, even for epic play. Also note that the Epic Leadership Feat requires the character to have the leadership feat first, which, like with Extra Followers and Improved Cohort, means that Thrallherds cannot qualify for Epic Leadership. They also cannot qualify for things like Legendary Commander. Doesn't the availability of Extra Followers, Improved Cohort, Epic Leadership, and Legendary Commander make Leadership a much better option than taking the Thrallherd PrC?
Tempest Stormwind 02-16-07, 08:19 PM	Alright... It's generally assumed that the Leadership-Like ability of the Thrallherd is better than Leadership. Why is that? Is it simply because of the cause stating that Thralls and Believers are replaced in 24 hours if lost? Or is it the extra Thrall at 10th level? What about with feats such as Extra Followers and Improved Cohort? I would think those would make up for those by quite a lot. Or do these feats actually also apply to the Thrallherd's believers and thralls as well? I don't think they do, considering that they require the "Leadership Feat", and I don't think that the Thrallherd's class ability is treated as Leadersip for the purposes of pre-requisites.The fact that Thrallherd levels count double toward Leadership, that your reputation doesn't penalize your minions, and the minions are replaced within 24 hours are all superior to Leadership. Leadership only pulls ahead in that it's got better support, particularly in Heroes of Battle.And... also... how does the Thrallherd interact with the Epic Leadership Feat? As far as I can tell, the Thrallherd cannot ever gain any followers greater than 6th level, and can only gain 2 of them. Note how on the table it simply says "25 or higher", and there is no other table for them to use past 25, even for epic play. Also note that the Epic Leadership Feat requires the character to have the leadership feat first, which, like with Extra Followers and Improved Cohort, means that Thrallherds cannot qualify for Epic Leadership. They also cannot qualify for things like Legendary Commander. Doesn't the availability of Extra Followers, Improved Cohort, Epic Leadership, and Legendary Commander make Leadership a much better option than taking the Thrallherd PrC?There's very little Epic support for psionics; an Epic Thrallherd progression or feat would solve that problem nicely. It's sort of like... Hmm... psion and wizard (assuming you've banned most of the broken spells). Psions are easier to use and have fewer BS-like things attached to them, but there's ALWAYS more support for the wizard, which will make it superior to anyone who's trying.
tiluvias99 02-16-07, 11:35 PM	The fact that Thrallherd levels count double toward Leadership, that your reputation doesn't penalize your minions, and the minions are replaced within 24 hours are all superior to Leadership. Leadership only pulls ahead in that it's got better support, particularly in Heroes of Battle.Well, for the first thing... does it really matter? It's not that hard to get 25 or higher with leadership. I guess with the Thrallherd it's easier, but I've found that in general, past the mid/upper levels, Leadership Score (and Thrallherd score as well) can far exceed the cap at 25 with only minor amounts of optimization. For the next thing, I've found that normally my leadership modifiers (like reputation) have a net positive bonus... is this not normally the case? How fast are minions replaced with the leadership feat? Or is it that with the thrallherd it's set as 24 hours while leadership (as far as I can tell) is a DM call?It's sort of like... Hmm... psion and wizard (assuming you've banned most of the broken spells). Psions are easier to use and have fewer BS-like things attached to them, but there's ALWAYS more support for the wizard, which will make it superior to anyone who's trying.Hm, good analogy.
Tempest Stormwind 02-16-07, 11:47 PM	Well, for the first thing... does it really matter? It's not that hard to get 25 or higher with leadership. I guess with the Thrallherd it's easier, but I've found that in general, past the mid/upper levels, Leadership Score (and Thrallherd score as well) can far exceed the cap at 25 with only minor amounts of optimization.True... but some modifiers are permanent and up to the DM's call.For the next thing, I've found that normally my leadership modifiers (like reputation) have a net positive bonus... is this not normally the case?Do you establish a base and stay there for most of your career, or do you move around like an adventurer? Oops, there's a net drop right there. How fast are minions replaced with the leadership feat? Or is it that with the thrallherd it's set as 24 hours while leadership (as far as I can tell) is a DM call?How fast can you go out recruiting?
furious kender 02-17-07, 12:06 AM	In the powers to faerun book, which deal entirely with leadership, it implies that it can take months of game time to get followers back. Also, having followers and cohorts killed for stupid reasons, like you do if you see them as fodder, will give ever growing reputation penalties. Thrallherd is superior to leadership, but leadership is powerful in its own right.
ElIsRa 02-17-07, 09:13 PM	As many have alluded to, the Thrallherd ability is superior if only because of the quick replacement of believers. This is especially true if you are evil. Where sacking followers to make magic items is a really good way to stop seeing the followers coming in, the Thrallherd doesn't have this limitation. Also throwing waves of believers against impenetrable defenses to distract those inside from the mercenary force that is circling around to crush them from behind, also quickly over powers the leadership ability. That said, I personally like the leadership feat better, just because it doesn't take up levels that I could be putting to a better use somewhere else.
Halaku 02-19-07, 12:15 PM	Overall i would say thrallherd is a better option if you want the minions, but this does bring up an old question of mine, could a thrallherd take undead leadership from libris mortis?
Tralan 02-19-07, 09:19 PM	Yeah, he could, but I beleive the Undead Leadership feat says that it counts as Leadership, except where noted. Therefor, it'd be eaten up by the Thrallherd class.
sooperspook 02-20-07, 08:44 AM	Is there any word on whether any of the Leadership boosting feats also apply to the Thrallherd?
Thomas_Covenant 02-20-07, 09:31 AM	Is there any word on whether any of the Leadership boosting feats also apply to the Thrallherd?Many outright will not apply, do the way the Thrallherd's pseudo-Leadership does not allow modifiers normally. As always, check the specific text of the Leadership boosting feat/ability, but many will outright not apply.
tiluvias99 02-20-07, 05:40 PM	There's also the question of whether or not the Thrallherd's class ability allows him to qualify for the Leadership based feats. Even if he could apply them, if that doesn't work then he's out of luck because Thrallherds can never take leadership and immediately lose it if they had it before. As for Undead Leadership, it says nothing about being treated as Leadership. The only connection is in the line "You attract a cohort and followers as if you had taken the leadership feat." Still though... I guess technically Undead Leadership would not qualify you for Leadership Boost feats either. But then again, technically, a Thrallherd could still take it.
Mkire 02-22-07, 02:23 AM	Quick epic level thrallherd progression 11 +1 manifester 12 +1 manifester 13 +1 manifester 14 +1 manifester 15 +1 manifester, bonus feat 16 +1 manifester 17 +1 manifester 18 +1 manifester 19 +1 manifester 20 Threefold master, bonus feat at 20th level thrallherd, you'd have three thralls, at -1, -2, and -3 levels below you, and so on and so on. use the same chart as epic leadership for believers. It'd need to be play tested, but i think it'd work
Halaku 02-23-07, 12:13 PM	This brings up an interesting idea for a BBEG in my head that i'll have to stat out once im at home with my books. Tiefling incarnate4 psion1 fiend of possesion 5 thrallheard 1 necrocarnate 9 add in tomb tainted soul and undead leadership.. hmm....
saucercrab 02-24-07, 04:16 PM	Mkire, Back in mid-January, some of us hashed out an epic thrallherd progression, here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=11126816).
JulesCARV 02-24-07, 04:39 PM	Also, a Thaumaturgist's Planar Cohort replaces leadership, but not thrallherd. So a Thrallherd 10/Thaumaturgist 5 can have two thralls and a planar cohort. Of course... I can't figure out how someone would actually be a thrallherd 10/thaumaturgist 5, except in, maybe, 23 levels. (ardent 1/cleric 3/psychic theurge 4/thrallherd 10/thaumaturgist 5?)
Lokiyn 02-24-07, 09:21 PM	Would something like this fit the bill? Character Level .. Class Lev Bab Fs Rs Ws 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th Specials Character Level 01 Sorcerer 01 0 0 0 2 5 3 — — — — — — — — Summon Familiar Character Level 02 Sorcerer 02 1 0 0 3 6 4 — — — — — — — — — Character Level 03 Sorcerer 03 1 1 1 3 6 5 — — — — — — — — — Character Level 04 Sorcerer 04 2 1 1 4 6 6 3 — — — — — — — — Character Level 05 Sorcerer 05 2 1 1 4 6 6 4 — — — — — — — — Character Level 06 Sorcerer 06 3 2 2 5 6 6 5 3 — — — — — — — Character Level 07 Sorcerer 07 3 2 2 5 6 6 6 4 — — — — — — — Character Level 08 Sorcerer 08 4 2 4 6 6 6 6 5 3 — — — — — — Character Level 09 Thaum 01 4 2 4 8 6 6 6 6 4 — — — — — Improved ally Character Level 10 Thaum 02 5 2 4 9 6 6 6 6 5 3 — — — — Augment Summoning Character Level 11 Thrall 01 5 2 4 11 6 6 6 6 5 3 — — — — Thrallherd Character Level 12 Thaum 03 5 3 5 11 6 6 6 6 6 4 — — — — Extended summoning Character Level 13 Thaum 04 6 3 5 12 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 — — — Contingent conjuration Character Level 14 Thaum 05 6 3 5 12 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 — — — Planar cohort Character Level 15 Sorcerer 09 6 4 6 12 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 — — — Character Level 16 Sorcerer 10 7 4 6 13 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 — — — Character Level 17 Sorcerer 11 7 4 6 13 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 — — Character Level 18 Sorcerer 12 8 5 7 14 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 — — Character Level 19 Sorcerer 13 8 5 7 14 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 — Character Level 20 Sorcerer 14 9 5 7 15 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 — Must be a Kalashtar with a wisdom of 13 of course. So for roughly the equivalent of a +1 La you get Thrallherd (which syncs nicely with your charisma) and a planar cohort. Leadership Score Max Co 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th Level 11 20 14th 50 5 3 2 1 — Level 12 21 15th 60 6 3 2 1 1 Level 13 22 15th 75 7 4 2 2 1 Level 14 23 16th 90 9 5 3 2 1 Level 15 24 17th 110 11 6 3 2 1 Level 16 25 17th 135 13 7 4 2 2 Level 17 25 17th 135 13 7 4 2 2 Level 18 25 17th 135 13 7 4 2 2 Level 19 25 17th 135 13 7 4 2 2 Level 20 25 17th 135 13 7 4 2 2 There is also some nice synergy with the planar cohort for evil characters (assuming you can find an evil god with the summoning domain) with replacable sacrifices to feed an outsider