Thrallherds [Archive] - Wizards Community

Thrallherds [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Killer_Rabbit
12-21-07, 03:07 AM I'm think of going into the thrallherd prestige class, has anyone here played it before. Is it very good? Also do thralls have their own will, can they refuse your commands?
jbsaff
12-21-07, 11:02 AM As far as the question of free will for thralls, I think a good discussion was presented in the Preliminary Thrallherd Guide (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=668622).

My current character is aiming for Thrallherd as quickly as possible. One thing to remember is that more levels of Thrallherd are better if you want more believers, since Thrallherd levels are counted twice in the leadership score.
Lycanthromancer
12-21-07, 01:26 PM Thrallherd can be a truly excellent class if you want to pull off some interesting stunts, and can fit in regardless of the type of campaign you're in.

First, you'll notice that you can choose the race and class of those that follow you. This is important.

Note that since creatures are drawn to you and the thrallherd ability is not [mind-affecting], you can reel-in undead critters. Psionics' answer to necromancy!

Since most of your thralls tend to be 1st level, you can use them in various ways (both in and out of combat):
Get a bunch of wizards, sorcerers, artificers, etc, armed with scrolls of Melf's acid arrow. Have them stand in the back lines and fire with impunity. Since they come with their own equipment, this costs you nothing (or very little, if you choose to divvy up for expenses), and if they fall, you get to keep what they leave behind.

You can also get a bunch of 1st level rogues or warrior-types with the Swarm Fighting feat and run them as if they're a swarm (from the PHB2, I think?).

Use them as an information-gathering army. Who needs ranks in Gather Information when you run the countryside for miles anyway?

If you charm the castle's castellan into hiring most of them as low-level workers (maids and stablehands and such), you now have an easy route into the castle to kill the king (or just persuade him into doing what you want, if you're not out to assassinate him). Pull those puppet-strings!
Get a bunch of psionic thralls and use them as the equivalent of a psionic spellbook. Why stress over the limited powers you know when you have access to ALL OF THEM? A high Cha score and a few ranks in Use Psionic Device and you can even manifest another's powers known from other disciplines, or even different classes altogether.

Get an intelligent mount as your primary thrall. Ride him. Quite useful, especially as centaurs etc can get class levels (no killing your mount with a single 1st level spell; awesome!).

Etc, etc, etc.

Use your mind, and you can have ALL SORTS OF FUN.
jbsaff
12-21-07, 02:47 PM I think some WIN just broke out in here... Visions of Centaur PsyWars are now dancing in my head... I'd better watch out for when he/she manifests Expansion though. Maybe a side saddle...
Killer_Rabbit
12-21-07, 04:05 PM I'm gonna try and get a lycanthope (is that right?) as my main thrall, something big with loads of con to absorb damage ment for me. All that and look cool. i love the idea about getting my beleivers hired into a castle. Awesome.
InkBlot
12-21-07, 06:31 PM Thralls and believers have free will. However, they are enthralled by you and believe in you. You could do horrible, awful things to them, and they would still follow you to the ends of the earth. It's partly who they are, and partly who you are. You're more likely to lose followers by suddenly changing your ideology, than by ordering them to murder their own families.

Jim Jones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones) and Charles Manson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Manson) are good examples of evil thrallherds.

Brian is a good example of a reluctant, chaotic good, thrallherd. He couldn't rid himself of his followers if he wanted to. YouTube example 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T1LIrzsgqA&feature=related) (worksafe), and YouTube example 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krb2OdQksMc) (better but NSFW).

Get a bunch of psionic thralls and use them as the equivalent of a psionic spellbook. Why stress over the limited powers you know when you have access to ALL OF THEM?

To elaborate on what the Lycanthroman said...

On page 64 of the Expanded Psionics Handbook there is an oft-overlooked rule. Psionic creatures can manifest powers straight from the brains of other psionic creatures. You must spend a round in physical contact with the creature who knows the power you want. You establish mental contact with a few Psicraft checks. Then you pick a power they know, and you have one round in which to start manifesting it (using your own power points, manifester level, ability scores, etc.).

Obviously this isn't very useful in the middle of a fight, but it's extremely useful out of combat. By recruiting nothing but psions, you could have access to every single 1st level psion power in existence. That may not sound so impressive, but keep augmentation in mind, and remember that you manifest them at your own manifester level.
hovnarr
12-21-07, 06:49 PM Note that since creatures are drawn to you and the thrallherd ability is not [mind-affecting], you can reel-in undead critters. Psionics' answer to necromancy!

Undead smell! The hygenic Thrallherd uses constructs.

It fits with the theme. After all, how is a high level Elan psion with Astral Feed NOT like a psionic lich? He is ageless, if he dies of unnatural causes he reincarnates using a gem, and he has lots of power at his command.

Instead of adding an undead army, why not add a construct army? Just as effective, but a lot more clean.
teshen
12-21-07, 08:59 PM . . .
It fits with the theme. After all, how is a high level Elan psion with Astral Feed NOT like a psionic lich? He is ageless, if he dies of unnatural causes he reincarnates using a gem, and he has lots of power at his command.
. . .
Astral Feed? Is that what you use for ghostly mounts or what?

I'd rather use astral seed... makes ghostly birds happy.

I think one of the better ideas I've seen for a cohort is a society mind (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=506284). It's like metaconcert for free.
CrimsonDeath
12-21-07, 11:38 PM I'd rather use astral seed... makes ghostly birds happy.

But if they drink any astral water, they'll explode...
Killer_Rabbit
12-22-07, 02:52 AM Thabks for the advice guys. But one more question, what should I use for my thrall, a lycanthrope would be nice, but the hitdice and LA is annoying. I would prefer a natural lycanthorpe so he doesn't go furry in the street when he stubs his toe, but The only thing I can i can get would be a wererat (or weredog, but meh) I was thinking the thrall could be the hardened leader of a mercenary company (a fighter/marshel multiclass ) and the belivers could be the mercs.
hovnarr
12-22-07, 04:52 AM Astral feed? That's what you give to your phantom steed of course. :embarrass

I've never played a Thrallherd, but I do like the leadership feat. Are the benefits to having Thralls/Believers so much greater than having Cohorts/Followers, that it's worth giving up a manifester level?
Jaid
12-22-07, 10:48 AM Astral feed? That's what you give to your phantom steed of course. :embarrass

I've never played a Thrallherd, but I do like the leadership feat. Are the benefits to having Thralls/Believers so much greater than having Cohorts/Followers, that it's worth giving up a manifester level?

mainly the fact that the *only* things that affect your leadership score are character level, thrallherd level, and charisma score. you can do whatever you want to or with your thralls and believers, and they still won't leave you. you can send them all to battle against overwhelming odds, watch them all die, and get more of them back the next day, without any of them even caring in the slightest that you just heartlessly sent your previous believers to their deaths.

basically, it's really convenient for an evil character, not quite as good for a good character. even then though, the fact that your thrall can be your level - 1 isn't insignificant (rather than level - 2), nor is the fact that you can get 2 thralls, and also the fact that you can get 2 good powers known, and get PP cost reductions for them.

it has it's perks ;)
hovnarr
12-22-07, 11:28 AM It sure does. I'm just trying to get a better idea how big those perks typically are and if they are worth the level loss (of course you get dominate and charm from the class too, but I figure those are worth less than the base psion bonus feats).

So, let's assume a character that takes steps to keep his believers/followers reasonably safe. Using them mostly for information or free services. Only his thrall/cohort actually goes into dangerous situations with him - if that. Then the "replace if dead" benefit is not very significant.

Next up is Leadership score. A psion with average charisma and reputation has no trouble keeping his L-score at or slightly above what grants him a maxed out (ECL-2) Cohort. Thrallherd gives more weaklings sooner though, which expands your network.

The most significant benefit is surely that your first thrall is ECL-1 instead of -2. That's good, combined with him being replaced promptly if killed (useful in dire straits, even for a good character).

I would probably only be worth it to get a 2nd thrall for very specific builds. Most psions should jump out of thrallherd before level 10.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Killer_Rabbit 12-21-07, 03:07 AM	I'm think of going into the thrallherd prestige class, has anyone here played it before. Is it very good? Also do thralls have their own will, can they refuse your commands?
jbsaff 12-21-07, 11:02 AM	As far as the question of free will for thralls, I think a good discussion was presented in the Preliminary Thrallherd Guide (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=668622). My current character is aiming for Thrallherd as quickly as possible. One thing to remember is that more levels of Thrallherd are better if you want more believers, since Thrallherd levels are counted twice in the leadership score.
Lycanthromancer 12-21-07, 01:26 PM	Thrallherd can be a truly excellent class if you want to pull off some interesting stunts, and can fit in regardless of the type of campaign you're in. First, you'll notice that you can choose the race and class of those that follow you. This is important. Note that since creatures are drawn to you and the thrallherd ability is not [mind-affecting], you can reel-in undead critters. Psionics' answer to necromancy! Since most of your thralls tend to be 1st level, you can use them in various ways (both in and out of combat): Get a bunch of wizards, sorcerers, artificers, etc, armed with scrolls of Melf's acid arrow. Have them stand in the back lines and fire with impunity. Since they come with their own equipment, this costs you nothing (or very little, if you choose to divvy up for expenses), and if they fall, you get to keep what they leave behind. You can also get a bunch of 1st level rogues or warrior-types with the Swarm Fighting feat and run them as if they're a swarm (from the PHB2, I think?). Use them as an information-gathering army. Who needs ranks in Gather Information when you run the countryside for miles anyway? If you charm the castle's castellan into hiring most of them as low-level workers (maids and stablehands and such), you now have an easy route into the castle to kill the king (or just persuade him into doing what you want, if you're not out to assassinate him). Pull those puppet-strings! Get a bunch of psionic thralls and use them as the equivalent of a psionic spellbook. Why stress over the limited powers you know when you have access to ALL OF THEM? A high Cha score and a few ranks in Use Psionic Device and you can even manifest another's powers known from other disciplines, or even different classes altogether. Get an intelligent mount as your primary thrall. Ride him. Quite useful, especially as centaurs etc can get class levels (no killing your mount with a single 1st level spell; awesome!). Etc, etc, etc. Use your mind, and you can have ALL SORTS OF FUN.
jbsaff 12-21-07, 02:47 PM	I think some WIN just broke out in here... Visions of Centaur PsyWars are now dancing in my head... I'd better watch out for when he/she manifests Expansion though. Maybe a side saddle...
Killer_Rabbit 12-21-07, 04:05 PM	I'm gonna try and get a lycanthope (is that right?) as my main thrall, something big with loads of con to absorb damage ment for me. All that and look cool. i love the idea about getting my beleivers hired into a castle. Awesome.
InkBlot 12-21-07, 06:31 PM	Thralls and believers have free will. However, they are enthralled by you and believe in you. You could do horrible, awful things to them, and they would still follow you to the ends of the earth. It's partly who they are, and partly who you are. You're more likely to lose followers by suddenly changing your ideology, than by ordering them to murder their own families. Jim Jones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones) and Charles Manson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Manson) are good examples of evil thrallherds. Brian is a good example of a reluctant, chaotic good, thrallherd. He couldn't rid himself of his followers if he wanted to. YouTube example 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T1LIrzsgqA&feature=related) (worksafe), and YouTube example 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krb2OdQksMc) (better but NSFW). Get a bunch of psionic thralls and use them as the equivalent of a psionic spellbook. Why stress over the limited powers you know when you have access to ALL OF THEM? To elaborate on what the Lycanthroman said... On page 64 of the Expanded Psionics Handbook there is an oft-overlooked rule. Psionic creatures can manifest powers straight from the brains of other psionic creatures. You must spend a round in physical contact with the creature who knows the power you want. You establish mental contact with a few Psicraft checks. Then you pick a power they know, and you have one round in which to start manifesting it (using your own power points, manifester level, ability scores, etc.). Obviously this isn't very useful in the middle of a fight, but it's extremely useful out of combat. By recruiting nothing but psions, you could have access to every single 1st level psion power in existence. That may not sound so impressive, but keep augmentation in mind, and remember that you manifest them at your own manifester level.
hovnarr 12-21-07, 06:49 PM	Note that since creatures are drawn to you and the thrallherd ability is not [mind-affecting], you can reel-in undead critters. Psionics' answer to necromancy! Undead smell! The hygenic Thrallherd uses constructs. It fits with the theme. After all, how is a high level Elan psion with Astral Feed NOT like a psionic lich? He is ageless, if he dies of unnatural causes he reincarnates using a gem, and he has lots of power at his command. Instead of adding an undead army, why not add a construct army? Just as effective, but a lot more clean.
teshen 12-21-07, 08:59 PM	. . . It fits with the theme. After all, how is a high level Elan psion with Astral Feed NOT like a psionic lich? He is ageless, if he dies of unnatural causes he reincarnates using a gem, and he has lots of power at his command. . . . Astral Feed? Is that what you use for ghostly mounts or what? I'd rather use astral seed... makes ghostly birds happy. I think one of the better ideas I've seen for a cohort is a society mind (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=506284). It's like metaconcert for free.
CrimsonDeath 12-21-07, 11:38 PM	I'd rather use astral seed... makes ghostly birds happy. But if they drink any astral water, they'll explode...
Killer_Rabbit 12-22-07, 02:52 AM	Thabks for the advice guys. But one more question, what should I use for my thrall, a lycanthrope would be nice, but the hitdice and LA is annoying. I would prefer a natural lycanthorpe so he doesn't go furry in the street when he stubs his toe, but The only thing I can i can get would be a wererat (or weredog, but meh) I was thinking the thrall could be the hardened leader of a mercenary company (a fighter/marshel multiclass ) and the belivers could be the mercs.
hovnarr 12-22-07, 04:52 AM	Astral feed? That's what you give to your phantom steed of course. :embarrass I've never played a Thrallherd, but I do like the leadership feat. Are the benefits to having Thralls/Believers so much greater than having Cohorts/Followers, that it's worth giving up a manifester level?
Jaid 12-22-07, 10:48 AM	Astral feed? That's what you give to your phantom steed of course. :embarrass I've never played a Thrallherd, but I do like the leadership feat. Are the benefits to having Thralls/Believers so much greater than having Cohorts/Followers, that it's worth giving up a manifester level? mainly the fact that the only things that affect your leadership score are character level, thrallherd level, and charisma score. you can do whatever you want to or with your thralls and believers, and they still won't leave you. you can send them all to battle against overwhelming odds, watch them all die, and get more of them back the next day, without any of them even caring in the slightest that you just heartlessly sent your previous believers to their deaths. basically, it's really convenient for an evil character, not quite as good for a good character. even then though, the fact that your thrall can be your level - 1 isn't insignificant (rather than level - 2), nor is the fact that you can get 2 thralls, and also the fact that you can get 2 good powers known, and get PP cost reductions for them. it has it's perks ;)
hovnarr 12-22-07, 11:28 AM	It sure does. I'm just trying to get a better idea how big those perks typically are and if they are worth the level loss (of course you get dominate and charm from the class too, but I figure those are worth less than the base psion bonus feats). So, let's assume a character that takes steps to keep his believers/followers reasonably safe. Using them mostly for information or free services. Only his thrall/cohort actually goes into dangerous situations with him - if that. Then the "replace if dead" benefit is not very significant. Next up is Leadership score. A psion with average charisma and reputation has no trouble keeping his L-score at or slightly above what grants him a maxed out (ECL-2) Cohort. Thrallherd gives more weaklings sooner though, which expands your network. The most significant benefit is surely that your first thrall is ECL-1 instead of -2. That's good, combined with him being replaced promptly if killed (useful in dire straits, even for a good character). I would probably only be worth it to get a 2nd thrall for very specific builds. Most psions should jump out of thrallherd before level 10.