Post/Author/DateTime	Post
flamepheonix182 01-05-08, 06:21 PM	Our party was fighting some dinosaurs and our ranger got swallowed. So I Time Hopped the dinosaur with the idea that the dinosaur would go and our ranger would fall out of his stomach. My DM allowed this but I was wondering what the official ruling on this? we weren't sure if the ranger would go with the dinosaur.
Jaid 01-05-08, 06:29 PM	there really isn't any particularly clear ruling on this. i would have allowed it though... after all, if you can't target a container separate from it's contents, you can't very well smash open a treasure chest without destroying the gold coins inside, can you? ;) of course, coming at it from the other side, when you time hop a person, all their gear goes with them ;) (like i said, there is no definitive ruling on this that i know of)
The_Mess 01-05-08, 07:42 PM	There are two ways of treating the issue, I suppose. If the "conceptual target" includes contents, you shouldn't have been able to time hop the T-rex separately from it's dinner. Of course, what is part of the whole? If the contents of his stomach aren't, does every person you teleport leave their food behind? When does food become part of an organism? When the molecules pass into the blood? When the molecules pass into the cells? (This would leave a layer of slime anytime you time-hop someone!) Is blood part of the organism? Are the symbiotic bacteria in the intenstines (not to mention the, uh, other contents of the intestines)? Extending this line of reasoning to it's ultimate conclusion, touching the target would just time-hop the dirt on it's skin, leaving it behind entirely! Alternately, you can argue that the power targets what the caster perceives to be the target. If you conceive of the t-rex separate from his dinner, it's targetted separately. This is open up to abuse ("I think I'll time-hop the barmaid's clothes..."), but at least it's internally consistent without being rendered useless by biology.
Tedronai 01-05-08, 08:20 PM	Attended objects are transported along with the target. Creatures are not objects, thus cannot be attended objects, and thus are not transported along with the targets. (note that normal plants are not creatures, and other living things without some sort of nervous system should not be considered such either, unless specified otherwise - see plant creatures, constructs, undead, elementals, outsiders, etc.. Also, corpses - ie. most food that would otherwise be a creature - are objects)
hovnarr 01-06-08, 07:00 AM	I agree with Tendronai. Being strict about the whole creatures =/= objects can create problems with psicrystals however. Sometimes share power can solve this though (but time hopping isn't one of them).
Doomed_Penguin 01-06-08, 01:54 PM	Hovnarr, a psicrystal is a construct, and as Tendronai said, can therefore be ruled out. There shouldn't be any problem while time hopping your psicrystal along with you, especially since it is considered an extension of your own personality (your familiar, however, would be a different story... sucks to be a Cerebremancer in this case).
CrimsonDeath 01-06-08, 03:25 PM	Hovnarr, a psicrystal is a construct, and as Tendronai said, can therefore be ruled out. There shouldn't be any problem while time hopping your psicrystal along with you, especially since it is considered an extension of your own personality (your familiar, however, would be a different story... sucks to be a Cerebremancer in this case). Not if you're using transparency. The familiar's Share Spells ability should work equally well on psionic powers (and the Psicrystals Share Powers ability should work equally well on spells).
rilem 01-08-08, 03:34 PM	I wouldn't have allowed it. If a dinosaur eats you and you time hop 5 minutes into the future, you're still in the stomach. If you assume that by stepping out of time you automatically move in space as well, because everything around you keeps moving, why wouldn't you rematerialize thousands of miles away — or even in space — as the earth spins beneath you and continues its orbit? Staying inside of the dinosaur is safer.
The_Mess 01-08-08, 03:54 PM	Fun fact! A five minute Time Hop, should the physics of astronomic movement be respected, would have you rematerialize about 40,000 miles away, based on the movement of the sun around the center of the galaxy. We don't know how fast the galaxy is actually moving, but based on estimations, a 5 minute time hop would leave you almost 103,000 miles away. Both of these numbers are greater than the diameter of the earth, so you're dumped in space! And that's not counting the expansion of the universe. Isaac Asimov wrote a story where the first time travellers forgot that the Earth moved and ended up tossing themselves well into deep space. We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion, already in progress.
flamepheonix182 01-08-08, 04:06 PM	I wouldn't have allowed it. If a dinosaur eats you and you time hop 5 minutes into the future, you're still in the stomach. If you assume that by stepping out of time you automatically move in space as well, because everything around you keeps moving, why wouldn't you rematerialize thousands of miles away — or even in space — as the earth spins beneath you and continues its orbit? Staying inside of the dinosaur is safer. I think you miss understood. I wasnt time hopping the character. I was time hopping the dinosaur and trying to leave the charcter in its stomach behind. the idea was he could get away before the dinosaur came back. Thanks for the suggestion everyone.
CryoSilver 01-08-08, 05:15 PM	All the arguments about appearing thousands of miles away are kind of moot; if it worked that way, teleportation wouldn't work very well either, nor would immobile objects like Walls of Force. We're also presuming that the Material Plane is just like ours, on planets that move and such. However, that's never been explicitly stated to be true. Also, what happens if you cast Wall of Force while you're on a ship? Does itmoves relative to the water, or the ship? I'd allow this use of Time Hop, though I'm forced to wonder if you'd still have line of effect to the ranger, who is inside the dinosaur, and therefore, out of sight, if that's required of Time Hop.
rilem 01-08-08, 05:30 PM	All the arguments about appearing thousands of miles away are kind of moot; if it worked that way, teleportation wouldn't work very well either... Sure it would, because you're moving to a place, not a time, and the relative distance between two points in space doesn't change (it would, if you were thinking in really big terms, but by the rules of Teleportation there aren't any complications). The Wall of Force on a boat is a neat idea. I like that one. I think you miss understood. I wasnt time hopping the character. I was time hopping the dinosaur and trying to leave the charcter in its stomach behind. the idea was he could get away before the dinosaur came back. I did misunderstand, yes, but I think I'd have the same response. If you could hop the dinosaur backward, that'd be different (and there are abilities to unwind time).
CrimsonDeath 01-08-08, 06:30 PM	Those of you who think the character Time Hops along with whatever critter swallowed him: What about Time Hopping one person out of a grapple? Because the Swallow Whole ability is simply a special form of grapple attack.
Haldrik 01-08-08, 07:20 PM	At first, I wouldnt have allowed Time Hop to isolate the Ranger, treating the swallowed Ranger as the dinosaurs attended object. But its genuinely ambiguous. The intention of the spellcaster matters, and to explicitly not include the Ranger matters. Also, the dinosaur gets a saving throw versus Time Hop (Will negates!), and the Ranger may get a separate saving throw, so the power can distinguish between the targets, and the manifesters intention is especially significant. Now I think I would allow it.
CrimsonDeath 01-08-08, 07:42 PM	At first, I wouldnt have allowed Time Hop to isolate the Ranger, treating the swallowed Ranger as the dinosaurs attended object. But its genuinely ambiguous. The intention of the spellcaster matters, and to explicitly not include the Ranger matters. Also, the dinosaur gets a saving throw versus Time Hop (Will negates!), and the Ranger may get a separate saving throw, so the power can distinguish between the targets, and the manifesters intention is especially significant. Now I think I would allow it. While I agree with yoru conclusion, I disagree with the way you arrived at it. The Ranger (assuming he's still alive) is a creature; it doesn't make sense to treat him as an object. The Target of Time Hop is "one creature". If the dinosaur attempts a saving throw against the power, the Ranger doesn't because the power isn't capable of affecting him; it's already affected the dinosaur.
Haldrik 01-08-08, 08:11 PM	Crimson: The Ranger (assuming he's still alive) is a creature; it doesn't make sense to treat him as an object. Along the same lines, and even cleaner. But still, connected creatures create ambiguity. What if the target manifested Fusion to fuse with another creature? How would Time Hop play out? Probably, they are treated as if one creature, tho the description doesnt explicitly say this? Pregnant mothers, psi crystals, and familiars, seem to have clearer solutions. Can you use Time Hop during a difficult labor instead of a caesarian section?
ReaderOfPosts 01-08-08, 08:55 PM	Can you use Time Hop during a difficult labor instead of a caesarian section? I laughed. A label on a wand of time hop. Do not use while pregnant: time hop has been known to cause miscarriages. You could also in theory use timehop as an anti-parisitic, or heck even an anti-bacterial (remove disease, move over). But those are a little absurd. I would generally state that non-sentient lifeforms/ dependent creatures would be moved with the spell. Familiars and psicrystals are weird (since technically you can only use share power for powers you manifest), but if you allow them to not count towards creature limits for teleport, then timehop should work as well.
Tedronai 01-08-08, 09:03 PM	Along the same lines, and even cleaner. But still, connected creatures create ambiguity. What if the target manifested Fusion to fuse with another creature? How would Time Hop play out? Probably, they are treated as if one creature, tho the description doesnt explicitly say this? Pregnant mothers, psi crystals, and familiars, seem to have clearer solutions. Can you use Time Hop during a difficult labor instead of a caesarian section? As for Fusion, though it is not directly stated, it MUST be assumed that the product is a single creature, as it has only one set of stats. Psicrystals and familiars are, in fact, seperate creatures, merely with the special ability to share particular types of effects created by their masters. Theoretically, one could use Time Hop as a non-surgical C-section alternative, however, I would advise against it, as a significant portion of the blood in the infant's body is actually belonging to the mother, and thus would stay behind (causing a sudden and drastic drop in blood pressure of the infant, which could quite easily be fatal).
CrimsonDeath 01-08-08, 09:09 PM	Theoretically, one could use Time Hop as a non-surgical C-section alternative, however, I would advise against it, as a significant portion of the blood in the infant's body is actually belonging to the mother, and thus would stay behind (causing a sudden and drastic drop in blood pressure of the infant, which could quite easily be fatal). I was pretty sure the placenta kept the blood systems largely separate-- vital, if the mother and child have different blood types.
The_Mess 01-08-08, 11:20 PM	CrimsonDeath is correct about blood generally being separate. It causes all kinds of problems if it isn't.
hogarth 01-09-08, 07:14 AM	Rotation of the earth? :rolleyes: Here's what it says in the power description: The subject reappears in exactly the same orientation and condition as before. If the space from which the subject departed is occupied upon his return to the time stream, he appears in the closest unoccupied space, still in his original orientation. So you return in the exact place you departed from. If you're in a dinosaur's stomach and you time hop and the dinosaur moves, then the dinosaur's stomach is no longer in the space (e.g. the 5' square) from which the subject departed. I would say that, in the case of time hopping the dinosaur, the swallowed character would be left behind (because it only affects one creature). I think the idea of time hopping and leaving a cloud of bacteria (and maybe a tapeworm) behind is a little bit strange, though.
rilem 01-09-08, 11:01 AM	The subject reappears in exactly the same orientation and condition as before. Note that "grappling" and "pinned" are both conditions. So by RAW, you can't Time Hop out of a grapple.
CrimsonDeath 01-09-08, 11:19 AM	I would say that, in the case of time hopping the dinosaur, the swallowed character would be left behind (because it only affects one creature). I think the idea of time hopping and leaving a cloud of bacteria (and maybe a tapeworm) behind is a little bit strange, though. IRL, intestinal bacteria are required for digestion, so teleportation spells wouldn't be very helpful unless such creatures were affected along with their host. In a world of magic, mundane parasites and symbiotes would probably evolve a "share spells" extraordinary ability. Note that "grappling" and "pinned" are both conditions. So by RAW, you can't Time Hop out of a grapple. Not necessarily. It may just mean that when you reappear, you're still Grappling or Pinned (although there's nobody actually grappling or pinning you). Which would mean that you automatically escape the grapple or pin once you're able to act (since there's nobody to oppose you). Whether doing so actually consumes actions would probably be up to the DM. (I'd say not.) Note that this doesn't matter if you're Time Hopping a creature that has Swallowed Whole another creature; the swallower isn't considered Grappled at that point (the initial premise of the thread).
Tedronai 01-09-08, 01:21 PM	I was pretty sure the placenta kept the blood systems largely separate-- vital, if the mother and child have different blood types. Well, perhaps blood was not the best choice of terminology on my part. There are, however, several other portions of 'circulatory fluid' that are shared, and pass through the placenta freely. Those fluids (carried in the blood stream, and thus otherwise included in the 'blood') are produced by and identifiable as belonging to the mother. They are also present in sufficient quantity for their sudden disappearance to be potentially fatal.
davethebrave371 01-09-08, 08:27 PM	This thread is absolutely enthralling. I have to say, I'd say that things being affected by a printed extraordinary, spell-like or supernatural ability shouldn't be considered "part of" the creature unless explicitly stated, including swallow whole. Since eating food (even, say, a live fish or something) doesn't have anything to do with an ability, a PC would retain their stomach contents. Just my stand.
Zippis 01-10-08, 07:40 AM	Note that "grappling" and "pinned" are both conditions. So by RAW, you can't Time Hop out of a grapple. Ok, you will be back in grapple conditions, when you appear after time hop - BUT maybe your grappling counterpartners moved from that space so grapple contest finished :) BTW: back about space movement while time hoping ... you still take your momentum when hoped, so no reason to be 40.000 miles away ;)
Haldrik 01-11-08, 11:14 AM	A PC would retain their stomach contents. Apparently, if a PC swallowed a live goldfish, the goldfish counts as a separate creature and would be left behind if the PC did a Time Hop. But if the fish was dead, and the PC ate fish fillets, it wouldnt count as a separate creature and would hop with the PC.
Mirannan 01-11-08, 12:11 PM	I liked the idea of using a time hop to remove parasitic worms. I remember a similar situation in a mid-level (10-12) 2nd edition campaign once - a fighter (mine, as it happens) got hit by rot grubs while in full plate. You only have 1-4 rounds to get rid of the things, and the party cleric was out of action. So the party's wizard cast Death Spell. Nobody in the party was susceptible, but 1/2 hit dice worms sure are!
CryoSilver 01-11-08, 02:20 PM	My first question remains unanswered: is line of effect required fortime hop? Because if the dino swallowed the ranger, that would sort of negate line of effect, wouldn't it?
Racinante 01-11-08, 02:43 PM	My first question remains unanswered: is line of effect required fortime hop? Because if the dino swallowed the ranger, that would sort of negate line of effect, wouldn't it? Line of effect is required for time hop. You may target the dinosaur, but you cannot target the ranger inside.
CrimsonDeath 01-11-08, 02:44 PM	Apparently, if a PC swallowed a live goldfish, the goldfish counts as a separate creature and would be left behind if the PC did a Time Hop. But if the fish was dead, and the PC ate fish fillets, it wouldnt count as a separate creature and would hop with the PC. Well, the fish fillet would be an attended object... My first question remains unanswered: is line of effect required fortime hop? Because if the dino swallowed the ranger, that would sort of negate line of effect, wouldn't it? Yes, Time Hop requires line of effect. How does the Ranger block line of effect between the Psion and the dinosaur?
CryoSilver 01-11-08, 02:45 PM	Ah, fair enough; I misread and thougth that the ranger had been Time Hopped.
Lycanthromancer 01-11-08, 04:10 PM	You can always target the ranger using Burrowing Power. You just need to know exactly where the ranger is.
Racinante 01-11-08, 04:35 PM	You can always target the ranger using Burrowing Power. You just need to know exactly where the ranger is. Actually, you cannot without meeting additional requirements. To successfully bypass the barrier with your power, you make a Psicraft check against a DC equal to 10 + the hardness of the barrier + 1 per foot of thickness (minimum 1). Assign a hardness of 20 to barriers without a hardness rating, such as force effects (or a wall of ectoplasm). Force walls or walls of ectoplasm are assumed to have less than 1 foot of thickness unless noted otherwise. Creatures have no hardness, so the implication is that only objects can be bypassed. More importantly, however If a power requires line of sight (which includes most powers that affect a target or targets instead of an area), you cannot manifest it as a burrowing power unless you can somehow see the target, such as with clairvoyant sense. and You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. So without some means of seeing or touching the target, you cannot time hop the ranger. If your DM allows it, which I would not as a creature is not an object, you would still need to make the DC 30 psicraft check to succeed.
Lycanthromancer 01-11-08, 04:40 PM	I can see inside of a dinosaur. It mostly just takes some planning. Contingencied clairvoyant sense, anyone?
CrimsonDeath 01-11-08, 07:53 PM	If your DM allows it, which I would not as a creature is not an object, you would still need to make the DC 30 psicraft check to succeed. Note that Burrowing Power never actually mentions objects. It consistently uses the term "barrier". The language appears to indicate that the author of the feat assumed that the average barrier was an object, but bypassing creatures appears to be possible. They'd be assigned a Hardness of 20 for the purpose of making the Psicraft check, though (unless the creature in question is a Psicrystal, which has a Hardness of 8).
davethebrave371 01-11-08, 09:17 PM	Apparently, if a PC swallowed a live goldfish, the goldfish counts as a separate creature and would be left behind if the PC did a Time Hop. But if the fish was dead, and the PC ate fish fillets, it wouldnt count as a separate creature and would hop with the PC. All I was saying is that I would say that unless an ability was in effect, it wouldn't count. Not whether there was irrational RAW logic or not. I was just saying what my solution as a DM would be.
CryoSilver 01-12-08, 10:37 AM	It'd be a neat party trick, in any case.
Sophismata 01-13-08, 07:04 AM	It'd be a neat party trick, in any case. Well, the previous suggestion about time-hopping someone's clothes certainly is. The actual person is not an attended object (though they'd get a Will save against de-clothing). Reminds me of Douglas Adams...
Xan_Kriegor 02-13-08, 10:17 PM	As another way to look at it, Time Hop affects one creature. The dinosaur and ranger are different creatures, correct? Therefore, the spell would affect the dino and the ranger falls to the ground from the height of the stomach because it would have to affect two creatures to affect the ranger. This seems like a valid approach. Thoughts?
forsaken1111 02-14-08, 05:32 PM	All arguments aside... if the stuff in someone's stomach does NOT count as extra targets, I'm totally gonna buy/train myself some big beastie so he can swallow the party and we can all use one charge off a low-level teleport wand. Or even sit in his mouth... where does the distinction begin?
jbsaff 02-14-08, 05:52 PM	All arguments aside... if the stuff in someone's stomach does NOT count as extra targets, I'm totally gonna buy/train myself some big beastie so he can swallow the party and we can all use one charge off a low-level teleport wand. Or even sit in his mouth... where does the distinction begin? Remember that stuff is not the same as persons/creatures. Unless you kill the party, get them eaten, teleport, then revive the party. Kinda expensive at that point. ;)
Lycanthromancer 02-14-08, 06:31 PM	Indubitably. Dead things in the digestive system are considered attended objects. Living things are considered separate creatures. Treat them accordingly.