Time hoping yourself..is there still a save each round [Archive] - Wizards Community

Time hoping yourself..is there still a save each round [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
vahju
04-06-08, 10:37 PM Just wondering if you time hop yourself would you still get the save each round to come out. To me it doesn't make sense if you are casting this power on yourself and you are a willing creature why you would be allowed the save each round.

My thought would be that if you cast it on yourself then you would be subject to the entire duration. Espicially when your higher level your will save will be much higher which would almost garuntee that you would only be in the affect for one round.

If there are any official updates for this power please link them here.
Tsuul
04-06-08, 11:06 PM In each round of the power’s duration, on what would have been the subject’s turn, it can attempt a DC 15 Wisdom check. Success allows the subject to return.The subject can freely forgo the check.
AntiDjinn
04-06-08, 11:18 PM Just because you are allowed a save does not obligate you to attempt it. Cure Light Wounds has a Will save for half (whether or not it is doing damage because you are undead) and allows Spell Resistance, but when is the last time you actually rolled it when being healed by a cleric?
vahju
04-06-08, 11:25 PM The subject can freely forgo the check.

I am still not sure if that makes sense. You would almost have to declare that when the power is first cast because you could decide several rounds later to resist.

Here is the situation that caused this thread to be created. Our group (18 level) was attacking a pumped up illithid. The illithid casted time hop on itself to get some relief from our attacks. Since the time hop was casted on the caster there was no save since the target was willing.

The group understood the spell as if you miss your save then you get the chance each round to break out, kind of like hold person. But the DM took it as each round the subject gets a save willing or not.

Again why would you cast time hop on yourself if you know your going to have to make a save. Being that the illithid was a 20 level manifester its will save would beat the DC for getting out in one round regardless if it wanted to stay longer.
Deathmond
04-06-08, 11:33 PM You always have the option of willingly failing a save. The illithid could fail his first save willingly, and then decides on each round whether it wants to fail the save or roll for it.
vahju
04-06-08, 11:42 PM You always have the option of willingly failing a save. The illithid could fail his first save willingly, and then decides on each round whether it wants to fail the save or roll for it.

Being able to change whether you want to willing fail a save then later wanting to resist means you have some type of control of yourself while being affected by a time hop. Also this kind of interpretation seems like you could take advantage of the situation on when you want to make the save.

From what I understand the person is oblivous to what is going on during the time they are time hopped. Why would they get a option to change how they can make their save each round while affected?

I am not trying to force my point of view I am just trying to get some clarification because this seems like it can be abused.
Slagger the Chuul
04-06-08, 11:51 PM From what I understand the person is oblivous to what is going on during the time they are time hopped. Why would they get a option to change how they can make their save each round while affected?

I am not trying to force my point of view I am just trying to get some clarification because this seems like it can be abused.

Now that's really a different question. While the subject can change whether or not they want to attempt their Wisdom check, because they aren't present to observe events, they have no reason to do so. Changing their decision would mean using player knowledge, rather than character knowledge. They could even decide to start attempting the Wisdom check after just three rounds, and unless they someone learned extra information while hopped, they would just start attempting it after those three rounds.

They can't change their decision simply because they have no knowledge on which to base that decision, not because the power actually makes it impossible. The abuse is using out-of-game knowledge.
CrimsonDeath
04-07-08, 12:13 AM How does Time Hopping yourself grant you relief from attacks? If an enemy successfully Psicrafts it, he knows you'll be back in a couple of minutes, and as far as you can tell, no time will pass at all.

Anyway, if someone wants to manifest it and then fall out X rounds later, he can decide that when he manifests the power and then on round X I'd let him start making saves. But then, if X is high enough to manifest the power anyway, he may as well just manifest it at ML X in the first place, so the duration will run out at that point. Either way, he'd have to make the decision when he manifests the power, and he won't be able to change his mind in reaction to events that occur while he doesn't exist.
PhaedrusXY
04-07-08, 01:56 AM How does Time Hopping yourself grant you relief from attacks? If an enemy successfully Psicrafts it, he knows you'll be back in a couple of minutes, and as far as you can tell, no time will pass at all.Most games have little to no psionics. In the games where I've played a psionic character, I was the only psionic being we ever encountered. So noone had Psicraft, or a clue about what I could do.

I've also used Time Hop on myself to escape the wrath of a nasty monster. You really only need one round usually. By then, it is chomping on someone else. :D (And yes, I specified it would only last 1 round at the time I manifested it. To decide to try and make the Will save after the power was in effect, due to events happening in game, would be metagaming).
AntiDjinn
04-07-08, 02:52 AM The Will saves each round, indeed, make no sense from the character's standpoint; no time is passing so there are no individual rounds for you to perceive the shift and attempt to resist it. This is an instance in which the mechanic is purely a player consideration. Getting Time Hopped out of an entire combat (which could last for an hour or more of table time, or even take a whole game session if you just have one of those groups) and having nothing to do simply sucks. So if you (the player) want your character to get back into the fight you get to roll a die each round on what would have been your turn. Even if it fails, at least you got to do something to keep you in the game. If your character gets to return early it is not because of some action he took while outside of the timestream (because he doesn't get actions, and making a saving throw is not an action in any case) but simply because his psyche was forceful enough to slough off this change imposed on its reality. If you don't want your PC to come back early, then you simply never pick up the die; the roll never was anything your character was doing so its omission does not represent any sort of omission in the game world.
Tsuul
04-07-08, 04:52 AM Being able to change whether you want to willing fail a save then later wanting to resist means you have some type of control of yourself while being affected by a time hop. Also this kind of interpretation seems like you could take advantage of the situation on when you want to make the save.Not necessarily. The mechanic is there to keep a player that is affected negatively by the spell "in the game". Each round the psionic power is pushing the player further and further down the time stream and the player is continuously fighting it.

Also this kind of interpretation seems like you could take advantage of the situation on when you want to make the save.The DM should punish taking advantage of this as much as possible. Right off the bat may I suggest the player coming out of the Time Hop overlooking a beach with a giant statue half buried in the sand and two humans yelling "It was earth all along!" When the proper duration occurs, let him come back.
MnemonicSV
04-07-08, 06:06 AM Just a reminder to everyone (except Slagger the Chuul):

Escaping a time hop on a round-by-round basis is a DC 15 Wisdom check, not a Will saving throw. Big difference from a success vs. DC standpoint, as well as other lesser issues.
vahju
04-07-08, 11:04 AM How does Time Hopping yourself grant you relief from attacks? If an enemy successfully Psicrafts it, he knows you'll be back in a couple of minutes, and as far as you can tell, no time will pass at all.
Our group doesn't have any psionic players as PCs. We were fighting a illithid that used this power on himself. The dilema was the illithid came out the very next round because he made the Wisdom check, which is what our group had a discussion about. Why would a willing participant get the round by round save.

Just a reminder to everyone (except Slagger the Chuul):

Escaping a time hop on a round-by-round basis is a DC 15 Wisdom check, not a Will saving throw. Big difference from a success vs. DC standpoint, as well as other lesser issues.
Thanks for the reminder. Its very rare that I see saves from spells or powers based on ability checks. This does make it harder to resist but at 18+ level I am sure the illithid in our encounter had a high wisdom and some kind of buffs to make the check.

===============

Thanks for all the feedback on this. I agree with one of the previous commenter's that if you want to come out early just cast the power at a lower manifestor level. I think this would have been much clearer if in the power description it stated what happens when you cast the spell on yourself as opposed to a creature or object.

Still not sure if creatures that are affected should be able to change their minds on if and when they want to make their save.
Lycanthromancer
04-07-08, 12:30 PM Time hope?

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g111/Lycanthromancer/TimeHope.jpg
vahju
04-07-08, 01:05 PM Time hope?

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g111/Lycanthromancer/TimeHope.jpg

Bummer can't get to the image while at work. For some reason lately my brain is adding the 'e'. I did this earlier when emailing some of my friends. Maybe I was HOPING for the right response to this thread. LOL

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
vahju 04-06-08, 10:37 PM	Just wondering if you time hop yourself would you still get the save each round to come out. To me it doesn't make sense if you are casting this power on yourself and you are a willing creature why you would be allowed the save each round. My thought would be that if you cast it on yourself then you would be subject to the entire duration. Espicially when your higher level your will save will be much higher which would almost garuntee that you would only be in the affect for one round. If there are any official updates for this power please link them here.
Tsuul 04-06-08, 11:06 PM	In each round of the power’s duration, on what would have been the subject’s turn, it can attempt a DC 15 Wisdom check. Success allows the subject to return.The subject can freely forgo the check.
AntiDjinn 04-06-08, 11:18 PM	Just because you are allowed a save does not obligate you to attempt it. Cure Light Wounds has a Will save for half (whether or not it is doing damage because you are undead) and allows Spell Resistance, but when is the last time you actually rolled it when being healed by a cleric?
vahju 04-06-08, 11:25 PM	The subject can freely forgo the check. I am still not sure if that makes sense. You would almost have to declare that when the power is first cast because you could decide several rounds later to resist. Here is the situation that caused this thread to be created. Our group (18 level) was attacking a pumped up illithid. The illithid casted time hop on itself to get some relief from our attacks. Since the time hop was casted on the caster there was no save since the target was willing. The group understood the spell as if you miss your save then you get the chance each round to break out, kind of like hold person. But the DM took it as each round the subject gets a save willing or not. Again why would you cast time hop on yourself if you know your going to have to make a save. Being that the illithid was a 20 level manifester its will save would beat the DC for getting out in one round regardless if it wanted to stay longer.
Deathmond 04-06-08, 11:33 PM	You always have the option of willingly failing a save. The illithid could fail his first save willingly, and then decides on each round whether it wants to fail the save or roll for it.
vahju 04-06-08, 11:42 PM	You always have the option of willingly failing a save. The illithid could fail his first save willingly, and then decides on each round whether it wants to fail the save or roll for it. Being able to change whether you want to willing fail a save then later wanting to resist means you have some type of control of yourself while being affected by a time hop. Also this kind of interpretation seems like you could take advantage of the situation on when you want to make the save. From what I understand the person is oblivous to what is going on during the time they are time hopped. Why would they get a option to change how they can make their save each round while affected? I am not trying to force my point of view I am just trying to get some clarification because this seems like it can be abused.
Slagger the Chuul 04-06-08, 11:51 PM	From what I understand the person is oblivous to what is going on during the time they are time hopped. Why would they get a option to change how they can make their save each round while affected? I am not trying to force my point of view I am just trying to get some clarification because this seems like it can be abused. Now that's really a different question. While the subject can change whether or not they want to attempt their Wisdom check, because they aren't present to observe events, they have no reason to do so. Changing their decision would mean using player knowledge, rather than character knowledge. They could even decide to start attempting the Wisdom check after just three rounds, and unless they someone learned extra information while hopped, they would just start attempting it after those three rounds. They can't change their decision simply because they have no knowledge on which to base that decision, not because the power actually makes it impossible. The abuse is using out-of-game knowledge.
CrimsonDeath 04-07-08, 12:13 AM	How does Time Hopping yourself grant you relief from attacks? If an enemy successfully Psicrafts it, he knows you'll be back in a couple of minutes, and as far as you can tell, no time will pass at all. Anyway, if someone wants to manifest it and then fall out X rounds later, he can decide that when he manifests the power and then on round X I'd let him start making saves. But then, if X is high enough to manifest the power anyway, he may as well just manifest it at ML X in the first place, so the duration will run out at that point. Either way, he'd have to make the decision when he manifests the power, and he won't be able to change his mind in reaction to events that occur while he doesn't exist.
PhaedrusXY 04-07-08, 01:56 AM	How does Time Hopping yourself grant you relief from attacks? If an enemy successfully Psicrafts it, he knows you'll be back in a couple of minutes, and as far as you can tell, no time will pass at all.Most games have little to no psionics. In the games where I've played a psionic character, I was the only psionic being we ever encountered. So noone had Psicraft, or a clue about what I could do. I've also used Time Hop on myself to escape the wrath of a nasty monster. You really only need one round usually. By then, it is chomping on someone else. :D (And yes, I specified it would only last 1 round at the time I manifested it. To decide to try and make the Will save after the power was in effect, due to events happening in game, would be metagaming).
AntiDjinn 04-07-08, 02:52 AM	The Will saves each round, indeed, make no sense from the character's standpoint; no time is passing so there are no individual rounds for you to perceive the shift and attempt to resist it. This is an instance in which the mechanic is purely a player consideration. Getting Time Hopped out of an entire combat (which could last for an hour or more of table time, or even take a whole game session if you just have one of those groups) and having nothing to do simply sucks. So if you (the player) want your character to get back into the fight you get to roll a die each round on what would have been your turn. Even if it fails, at least you got to do something to keep you in the game. If your character gets to return early it is not because of some action he took while outside of the timestream (because he doesn't get actions, and making a saving throw is not an action in any case) but simply because his psyche was forceful enough to slough off this change imposed on its reality. If you don't want your PC to come back early, then you simply never pick up the die; the roll never was anything your character was doing so its omission does not represent any sort of omission in the game world.
Tsuul 04-07-08, 04:52 AM	Being able to change whether you want to willing fail a save then later wanting to resist means you have some type of control of yourself while being affected by a time hop. Also this kind of interpretation seems like you could take advantage of the situation on when you want to make the save.Not necessarily. The mechanic is there to keep a player that is affected negatively by the spell "in the game". Each round the psionic power is pushing the player further and further down the time stream and the player is continuously fighting it. Also this kind of interpretation seems like you could take advantage of the situation on when you want to make the save.The DM should punish taking advantage of this as much as possible. Right off the bat may I suggest the player coming out of the Time Hop overlooking a beach with a giant statue half buried in the sand and two humans yelling "It was earth all along!" When the proper duration occurs, let him come back.
MnemonicSV 04-07-08, 06:06 AM	Just a reminder to everyone (except Slagger the Chuul): Escaping a time hop on a round-by-round basis is a DC 15 Wisdom check, not a Will saving throw. Big difference from a success vs. DC standpoint, as well as other lesser issues.
vahju 04-07-08, 11:04 AM	How does Time Hopping yourself grant you relief from attacks? If an enemy successfully Psicrafts it, he knows you'll be back in a couple of minutes, and as far as you can tell, no time will pass at all. Our group doesn't have any psionic players as PCs. We were fighting a illithid that used this power on himself. The dilema was the illithid came out the very next round because he made the Wisdom check, which is what our group had a discussion about. Why would a willing participant get the round by round save. Just a reminder to everyone (except Slagger the Chuul): Escaping a time hop on a round-by-round basis is a DC 15 Wisdom check, not a Will saving throw. Big difference from a success vs. DC standpoint, as well as other lesser issues. Thanks for the reminder. Its very rare that I see saves from spells or powers based on ability checks. This does make it harder to resist but at 18+ level I am sure the illithid in our encounter had a high wisdom and some kind of buffs to make the check. =============== Thanks for all the feedback on this. I agree with one of the previous commenter's that if you want to come out early just cast the power at a lower manifestor level. I think this would have been much clearer if in the power description it stated what happens when you cast the spell on yourself as opposed to a creature or object. Still not sure if creatures that are affected should be able to change their minds on if and when they want to make their save.
Lycanthromancer 04-07-08, 12:30 PM	Time hope? http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g111/Lycanthromancer/TimeHope.jpg
vahju 04-07-08, 01:05 PM	Time hope? http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g111/Lycanthromancer/TimeHope.jpg Bummer can't get to the image while at work. For some reason lately my brain is adding the 'e'. I did this earlier when emailing some of my friends. Maybe I was HOPING for the right response to this thread. LOL