Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Celsun 05-25-07, 02:08 PM	I've been thinking about using a psionic recharge system similar to the encounter-based system in TOB, because it's easier to balance. This system prevents novas and removes the need to plan or threaten four encounters per day. Has something similar to what follows appeared on these boards? Psionic Recharge Take a creature's total power points and divine by 3 (or 4 if you are stingy, but 3 is a bit better for psywars). Now you have an "encounter power point" total which is available to that manifester in every encounter, no matter how many encounters he has per day. Full recharge requires 5 minutes of meditation (or whatever--just enough to prevent it from being performed in combat). Feats and such could change this a bit, of course. There are some concerns: A group will be completely healed, cured, and restored between encounters (this happens already, more or less, thanks to cheap magic/psionic items). Consequently, a group will be at full strength in every encounter. Resource depletion only occurs if waves of enemies attack. Long-term buffs such as inertial armor can be augmented to their full potential with no cost, so they'll need to be rewritten as short-term buffs or turned into "stances." Alternatively, these powers could reduce available encounter power points instead (a 7pp IA could cost 2 ePP or some such). Some powers may need hard-coded limitations. I wouldn't want a psion dominating an entire city in one day or producing 1,000 astral taskers, for example.
Rageheart 05-25-07, 04:20 PM	Personally, I do not feel it is realistic to say that a group could or even should be at full strength in every encounter... If in an extreme example I do not let my slaves... er, party rest for more tham a few minutes at a time I can conceivably throw 10-12 combats at them in a day and they are bright eye'd and bushy-tailed after a coffeebreak. Also An investment in a Cog. Crystal becomes ESSENTIAL, allowing you to: fill the jar, rest, battle(drain self, drain crystal), rest, fill the jar, rest, ... I would rather reward premature Novaing with complete uselessness for the rest of the day... bear in ming even if you only do 1-2 encounters per session, nobody ever said you have to end the day when you end the session. Why not keep them on the run until the next time you game?
Celsun 05-25-07, 05:38 PM	If a group has 4 encounters per day, and if this group uses 1/4 of their resources in each encounter, the group, essentially, is it full (1/4 of their daily) power at the start of each encounter. This assumes that they heal/cure/restore, of course, between encounters. With consumables, it's not too expensive or difficult to do so, and in some cases it's assumed. And if that's the case, isn't it easier just to use an encounter system? Also An investment in a Cog. Crystal becomes ESSENTIAL, allowing you to: fill the jar, rest, battle(drain self, drain crystal), rest, fill the jar, rest, ... Cog crystals in a recharge system would be useful in every encounter, yes, and therefore should be more expensive (x4?). I would rather reward premature Novaing with complete uselessness for the rest of the day... bear in ming even if you only do 1-2 encounters per session, nobody ever said you have to end the day when you end the session. Why not keep them on the run until the next time you game? I don't like the four-encounters-per-day system, since I have to schedule or at least threaten the appearance of four encounters per day. A character that burns his wad in one encounter becomes a commoner with a stick for the rest of the day; that's not fun for the player. I don't have the flexibility to hit a group with more than 4 encounters per day (such as a slogfest through a city of demons), since they'll be on their last legs after the 4th battle. And I have to use special rules to prevent NPCs from using all their resources in one encounter. WotC appears to be maneuvering D&D toward an encounter system, as evidenced by ToB, the factotum, the warlock, etc. As it stands, I could apply the maneuvers/level system to a sorc and work up a functioning "encounter" system already (an 8th level sorc might have 1 1st, 2 2nd, 2 3rd, and 2 4th level slots, like a 8th level Warblade). It's even easier to do this with the psionics system.
Xeviat-DM 05-25-07, 08:24 PM	I'm all for this. As evidenced by Magic of Incarnum and the new healing reserve feat in Complete Divine, the designers don't seem to feel that unlimited healing is as potent as it once was considered; I'm assuming that the Cure Light Wounds wand showed them the error in their ways (at a cost of 15 gp per charge, or approximately 3 gp per HP healed, cure light wounds wants are cheep, and cost little enough that they should be found in almost any city according to the DMG city wealth value system). So, yeah, that's my point.
Cala, Legend Reborn 05-26-07, 07:39 AM	For out of combat healing, a wand of Lessor Vigor is much more efficient than CLW. Our party makes liberal use of them sticks, even with non-divine characters pumping out between-encounter healing through UMD.
Sarlax 05-26-07, 09:39 AM	A larger problem, I believe, is in the plethora of utility powers/spells available. The encounter system is perfect for combat - you only manifest Mind Thrust when you're planning to kill someone and the GM can control how often those circumstances occur. It's powers like Teleport, Dominate, Remote Viewing, etc. that are difficult. The encounter system provides in effect unlimited power points, allowing psions to run around mind-controlling and teleporting at will.
Celsun 05-26-07, 11:34 AM	Does it really matter how often a psion can teleport per day? He can already teleport multiple times per day under the current system. I agree that an encounter system would need some limitations, and some powers would have to be nerfed. For example, mind control effects could be limited to a maximum of one creature per manifester level (an 8th level telepath could charm 4 creatures and dominate 4 more, but then he's reached his limit). Teleport could have an experience point cost. That kind of thing.
Zyrusticae 05-26-07, 03:19 PM	Well, you could try, instead of encounter rules, having a certain number of PP regenerate every hour. May be a little math intensive, but it certainly prevents the issues of characters using utility powers/spells all willy-nilly like an' stuff.
BlaineTog 05-27-07, 01:11 PM	You'd have to check each and every power and rebalanced them as necessary for this new system. One thing you could do is instituted a "commit" system, where long-duration powers loose their durations and instead require the commitment of power points which reduces your maximum PP while using them. So if you have normally have 27 power points and you manifest Inertial Armor for 7, your maximum number of power points would change to 20 while it's up. Releasing it would be a free action, I am thinking, but you wouldn't get the power points back or anything, your maximum would just increase.
Celsun 05-27-07, 05:55 PM	You'd have to check each and every power and rebalanced them as necessary for this new system. Yes. Most everything is fine (the powers that are already used only in combat, like ectoplasmic cocoon), but some of the long-duration powers (dominate, charm) and utility powers need adjustment. One thing you could do is instituted a "commit" system, where long-duration powers loose their durations and instead require the commitment of power points which reduces your maximum PP while using them. I was thinking about doing that. A 8pp inertial armor should cost 2pp in each encounter (since in the old system, it cost you 2pp in each of the next 4 encounters). I do like the idea of dropping it on the fly for either an increased encounter power point maximum or (perhaps as a feat) an instant refund. IA could also be rewritten as a TOB-style stance, wherein its only real cost is the powers known slot and the use of the "stance" slot that could otherwise be used with energy adaptation, wall walker, darkvision, and other "stance" powers. Mind blank would work well as a stance, too, now that I think of it. I think this is where 4e is headed, anyway.
Eldritch_Lord 05-27-07, 06:16 PM	I'm working on a ToB-ish magic system that uses "holding slots" for long-term powers that work sort of like stances. Basically, you have a number of slots that can hold spells for as long as you want (ie, as long as you're conscious). Right now the number is based on Concentration ranks/2, round down, so for example a 10th level character could have a maximum of 6 long-term spells up at once. The durations of any buffs and other effects like mind-control and so on are drastically reduced, so if you want a dominate spell to last more than a few rounds you need to put it in a holding slot. This lets characters keep buffs up all day like in a per-day system, but they can't have as many buffs up as they want like they could in a per-encounter system. I haven't playtested it yet, but it looks good so far; YMMV.
BlaineTog 05-28-07, 10:42 PM	Yes. Most everything is fine (the powers that are already used only in combat, like ectoplasmic cocoon), but some of the long-duration powers (dominate, charm) and utility powers need adjustment.Possibly, but it'd need additional playtesting. Save-or-dies every round for every combat is not balanced, especially since that'd be just the tip of the iceberg. I was thinking about doing that. A 8pp inertial armor should cost 2pp in each encounter (since in the old system, it cost you 2pp in each of the next 4 encounters). I do like the idea of dropping it on the fly for either an increased encounter power point maximum or (perhaps as a feat) an instant refund. IA could also be rewritten as a TOB-style stance, wherein its only real cost is the powers known slot and the use of the "stance" slot that could otherwise be used with energy adaptation, wall walker, darkvision, and other "stance" powers. Mind blank would work well as a stance, too, now that I think of it. I think this is where 4e is headed, anyway.See how quickly this is spiraling into an entierly different book?
Steely_Dan 05-29-07, 09:48 AM	Maybe they start each encounter with 1/4 of their power point total, and may refresh them as a full round action that provokes an AoO? Obviously certain powers would get out of control with a system like this.
Celsun 05-29-07, 12:16 PM	Maybe they start each encounter with 1/4 of their power point total, and may refresh them as a full round action that provokes an AoO? I'd want to nerf a psion's powers down to TOB's levels before I let them be refreshed that easily. It's a thought, though. Right now the number is based on Concentration ranks/2, round down, so for example a 10th level character could have a maximum of 6 long-term spells up at once. Interesting, but I'm hesitant to use a skill check in a spell system. Either the key skill can't be augmented with +skill items (which makes the skill different than other skills, like Tumble), or it can be augmented by magic/psionic items (which means the system has to accomodate the +20 skill item PCs will wear).
BlaineTog 05-29-07, 01:27 PM	If you want to re-write it to be the same system as ToB entierly, you're probably actually gonna have fewer problems since you already know your end goal. I'd suggest making the powers more powerful than the ToB maneuvers, though, since you'd be going for full-casters rather than gish classes.
Zyrusticae 05-29-07, 02:10 PM	I'd suggest making the powers more powerful than the ToB maneuvers, though, since you'd be going for full-casters rather than gish classes. Hey, now. Remember the psychic warriors!
TikiMan 05-31-07, 02:32 PM	I meant to respond to this a lot earlier, but one of my groups had an emergency session because one player turned into a dragon, and another into an air elemental...and we're worried our DM has been sniffing way to much glue. :rolleyes: I've been using a per encounter system for psionics for some time now. I give manifesters 1/4 of their PP each encounter (more like 1/3 for the Psi War; I've upped their base PP by 50% for a while now). They also get 1/8 (1/6 for PsiWar) of their PP for buffs, so they can keep any power with a duration of 10min/lvl or greater up all the time. Any further long term buffing comes out of their per encounter pool. As for long term powers like charm or dominate, you simply cannot gain the PP you spent on that power until the duration ends. This also applies to, say, extended 1min/lvl powers. I've also got a 'mental fatigue' rule for accessing another 1/4 of your PP in a given encounter (cannot be removed magically, immunity doesn't protect, etc). So far everything has been working out great, though I admit the people I play with aren't really known for testing the limits of the system. As for people who abuse the recharge system and expend, recharge, expend, recharge, blah blah blah, I have a fun little table I make them roll on occasionally. Depending on the infraction I give them a penalty. I'm still working the details out, but the results range from a nice chat with a more powerful psion ('now, you really shouldn't abuse your powers like that') to a less nice chat with local crafting guilds, to an outright attack by PP eating enemies (Thought Eaters/Slayers), or people who you've angered ('OK fellow cultists, they may have burned our temple, but for the next 5 minutes this guy is spent, so now is the time for vengence!'). I've also added psionic diseases (cascade flu is just so much fun). And for serious problems that threaten the fundamental balance of the world, there are always Inevitables, who are not only annoying in their own right, but who also love to form alliances with others (cultists, devils, dragons after a specific item you have, etc). One short game actually revolved around protecting the group psion while he did this stuff, and they had a blast just fighting the random monsters I came up with. All in all it's working out just fine, and everyone (DM especially) is enjoying the flexibility of a per encounter system. The XPH, Tome of Battle, and Magic Item Compendium have become our new core books; our 4th edition if you will. :D
Celsun 05-31-07, 07:00 PM	I've been using a per encounter system for psionics for some time now. I give manifesters 1/4 of their PP each encounter (more like 1/3 for the Psi War; I've upped their base PP by 50% for a while now). Have you found the 1/4 allotment to be sufficient for full manifesters? I haven't been able to decide between 1/4 or 1/3. I like 1/3 on psywars and psyrogs, of course. 1/3 for a full manifester is closer to a sorc's output, more or less. The XPH, Tome of Battle, and Magic Item Compendium have become our new core books; our 4th edition if you will. :D Interesting. In my campaign, I use the XPH for the "magic" system (there's no arcane and divine) and TOB for non-psions. I'd love to see a TOB-style book for archers, thrown weapon users, and rogues/dex monkeys as well, so that I could convert everything to a per-encounter system.
Tempest Stormwind 05-31-07, 07:41 PM	RadicalTaoist keeps bugging me about devising something similar to this based on the Tales series (in which all techniques -- martial and magical -- are powered by TP (tech points, analagous to MP in most other video games), but unlike most other games, you regain a portion of your TP (based on your level) back at the end of every battle). It's actually a spectacular game series in its own right (if you're into gaming, I'd call it the Tome of Battle / XPH to Final Fantasy's core), but this simple idea drawn from it has rather interesting implications if applied to psionics. Essentially, this would amount to a recharge system with a built-in throttle: if you stayed under your amount recovered in one encounter (that is, if you willingly held back), you'd emerge with more TP than you entered the battle with (though not more than your maximum), meaning you could potentially nova if a significant encounter popped out of nowhere, contribute less for a few encounters afterward, and still be competitive after that. It also contains a touch of the per-day balancing factor, since the amount recovered is typically pretty low with respect to how expensive your abilities are -- with regards to psionics, this would mean that if you wanted to stay below your recovery threshold, you'd have to use weaker powers than you normally would, while if you used normal-strength powers you'd run out over the course of the day (but you'd earn it back if you started to throttle yourself). Naturally, this involves a smaller basic power point reserve, and to stop people metagaming their recovery precisely, the exact amount recovered would likely be based on a die roll (the size of which would likely be based on your ML). It's not a perfect idea (since there'd be a chunk of math involved and there's no set "end" to every encounter; it also smacks somewhat of a power-point-recovery-over-time system), and it's similar to per-encounter power-point allotments (although this system does account for out-of-combat use while per-encounter doesn't), but it might be worth exploring -- if for no other reason than it gets RT off my back (kidding!) and retains an almost per-day sensitivity to nova attacks (unlike per-encounter, which essentially is "you can nova this much every encounter" unless it's VERY carefully tweaked).
TikiMan 05-31-07, 07:43 PM	Have you found the 1/4 allotment to be sufficient for full manifesters? I haven't been able to decide between 1/4 or 1/3. I like 1/3 on psywars and psyrogs, of course. 1/3 for a full manifester is closer to a sorc's output, more or less. 1/4 does in fact work fine for my groups. But then again, I have a 'mental fatigue' system for when they feel the need to pull out more power. Mental Fatigue: -2 Int, Wis, Cha, recharging takes twice as long, goes away with 8 hours of rest. You become mentally fatigued after an encounter in which you use more then 1/4 of your PP (cannot go past 1/2 no matter what). If you are already mentally fatigued, you become physically fatigued, if you are physically fatigued you become exausted, and if exausted you become unconscious. You cannot be immune to this, it does stack with mundane sources (but not magical), and the only way to get rid of it is with the prescribed amount of rest (or by bribing the DM with cookies :D ). The only time an NPC will risk fatigue is if he is trying to run away (so first 1/4 are spent on killing you, next 1/4 are spent on healing/getting away, applies to boss fights especially). In general I find it makes CR appropriate encounters actually mean something (like random woods encounters, which are currently a joke). Encounters of CR above the group are an actual challenge no matter when you throw them in. And it directly rewards people who optimize/work together, because they can regularly take on higher CR encounters, and therefore advance through levels faster (which is more fun for them usually). I'd love to see a TOB-style book for archers, thrown weapon users, Kord bless Tempest Stormwind and his Falling Star Style (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=771597). As for rogues and other skill monkies, most of them don't have many /day resources, so they work just fine in a /encounter system as is. Same goes for warlocks, swashbucklers, and many other odd classes my groups enjoy. Heck, even the Duskblade converts to /encounter pretty well (just divide his spells/day by 3 for each encounter). Given that manifesters have to work on a budget, the power discrepancy between the two shortens up quite a bit. And as Rageheart pointed out, Cognizance Crystals actually become useful! (though I haven't had them become overpowered; they're usually used last in a fight, so they only come into play if something went wrong)
Celsun 06-01-07, 06:54 PM	Kord bless Tempest Stormwind and his Falling Star Style (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=771597). I've read through thread. People on these boards can be very creative. Someone posted two archery disciplines over on enworld as well. As for rogues and other skill monkies, most of them don't have many /day resources, so they work just fine in a /encounter system as is. I agree that rogues are adequate as is, although they could be far more interesting with a maneuver system instead of the hodgepodge of always-on quasi-feats they have now. For example, sneak attack damage could be folded into a series of maneuvers, and rogue special abilities like improved evasion could be written as stances or counters.