Today's Q: Magic items vs. Psionic items [Archive] - Wizards Community

Today's Q: Magic items vs. Psionic items [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Draz74
06-20-07, 04:55 PM Today's "Ask Wizards" borders on some important and interesting questions, and then proceeds to avoid actually answering them. I mean, I already knew that Dispel Magic/Dispel Psionics were interchangeable on the transparency rule.

But here I have two questions remaining:

- Do UMD / UPD skills work on the transparency rule? I wouldn't think so, or else why would they both even exist?

- Can you have a weapon or other item that is magical AND psionic? Like a +1 Lucky Dragon-Bane Sword of Collision?
Racinante
06-20-07, 05:18 PM Based on the response:
Mechanically, however, there’s really no difference between the two categories of items.
...
If you create an item that uses both spells and powers as prerequisites, you should decide whether is aura is identifiable as a school of magic or a discipline of powers.
Yes, you can have an item that is both magical and psionic.

Also, since there is no difference mechanically between psionic and magic items, I would infer that UMD and UPD were equivalent.
Bacris
06-20-07, 06:08 PM Treating UMD / UPD as interchangable shouldn't be a problem, but by RAW, they are not the same. Just as Psicraft and Spellcraft are not interchangable (that doesn't mean they should or shouldn't be, just that they aren't).

There's nothing to stop from a +1 flaming collision sword or any such instance :)
ninja1
06-21-07, 11:39 AM - Do UMD / UPD skills work on the transparency rule? I wouldn't think so, or else why would they both even exist? I think UMD and UPD are equivalent under the transparency *Variant*.

I believe they both exist because they are the norm, and not every DM will use the Variant rule.
The_Ditto
06-21-07, 01:16 PM Keep in mind, that with full transparency ... something like Gloves of Dexterity could be either a "magic" item, or "psionic" item ... either way, you ID it the same way, you use it the same way .. etc.

(Magic Item Compendium really gave us a good rule of thumb for this when it talked about using Psionic power "equivilents" to substitute for spells ... ie Animal Affinity for Cat's Grace, and craft your own "psionic" version of Gloves of Dexterity).

When using transparency:
UMD = UPD ..
Spellcraft = Psicraft

I still see a purpose for keeping knowledge: (Arcana and Psionics and Religion) seperate .. although "fudging" synergies by the DM would probably be a good call in certain situations ..
:tiphat:
kyeudo
06-21-07, 02:48 PM My question is this: Since Transparency only specifies that spells are equivalent to powers, not feats or magic items, alla orange prism ioun stones and metamagic rods, does this mean that Mage's Disjunction, which specifies that all magic items are disjoined, does not affect psionic items?

RAW it seems to work, although an easy house ruling is that it does.
Bacris
06-21-07, 02:55 PM When using transparency:
UMD = UPD ..
Spellcraft = Psicraft

This would be a higher level of transparency than presented in the XPH.

Not saying I disagree, just saying that's not how it works with the XPH rules.

As for this

does this mean that Mage's Disjunction, which specifies that all magic items are disjoined, does not affect psionic items?

I'd have to go with this rule:

Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics.

It's not explicitly called out, so you can technically view it either way, since Transparency later details exactly what's covered, but that overarcing rule could be used as a basis for disjunction.
kyeudo
06-21-07, 03:07 PM So I can use my wizard buddy's Rod of Metamagic Extend to extend my Time Hop?
The Crimson Dawn
06-21-07, 03:30 PM As time hop is a psionic power right and extend spell is a metamagic feat then I would have to say no. Even if you have the ability to have UMD=UPD (which I like) metapsionic feats and metamagic feats are not the same and do not even work the same so I would have to say no.
kyeudo
06-22-07, 01:14 AM Thus the problems with Transparency.

Too bad non-transparency is even worse.
The Livewire
06-22-07, 07:46 AM Meaning...

Psionics and magic are transparent, unless it would benefit the psion.

Oh, and as an aside, the sage today mentions MoE for the Psionificer, but doesn't mention the crossover rules in the MIC for the 'mages horn in on the psions' rules.
elondir
06-22-07, 08:51 AM I prefer complete non-transparency. It prevents a psion from becoming just another magic-user.
Fafnir
06-22-07, 09:16 AM Meaning...

Psionics and magic are transparent, unless it would benefit the psion.

I see it as the opposite. MIC supertransparency favors the Psion, as there's a larger amount of magic items than psionic ones.
Bacris
06-22-07, 09:46 AM I prefer complete non-transparency. It prevents a psion from becoming just another magic-user.

It also requires extra work on the DMs part... and can introduce game imbalance.

I know from personal experience when my DM first used magic-psionic non-transparency.

We switched pretty quickly to transparency when the psion's powers regularly bypassed spell resistence that the casters couldn't touch.
Caterpillar
06-22-07, 10:23 AM I don't think that Psicraft = Spellcraft, IMHO it's two completely different things.

When it gets to the meta'magic' rods... I suppose if you think about it the rod is just enhancing the energy of the spell/power to a certain affect... I think they should be useable with either.

If not, has anyone put together metapsionic rods?
Fleem
06-22-07, 02:52 PM By RAW, Psicraft != Spellcraft. Some people are fine with that level of transparency, though.

Metapsionic rods: Same as the metamagic ones, except... um... they're crystal pyramids that you put on your head. ;)
Fafnir
06-22-07, 03:11 PM When I DM, I usually rule UMD = UPD for simplicity's sake. On the other hand, Psicraft != Spellcraft.

However, when studying a psionic/magic effect, I usually allow the use of both skills. The wrong one tends to give muddled results, like Illusions reading as both Telepathy and Psychokinesis.
Yadot
06-22-07, 03:37 PM I think UMD and UPD are equivalent under the transparency *Variant*.

I believe they both exist because they are the norm, and not every DM will use the Variant rule.
Transparency isn't the variant rule, non-transparency is.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Draz74 06-20-07, 04:55 PM	Today's "Ask Wizards" borders on some important and interesting questions, and then proceeds to avoid actually answering them. I mean, I already knew that Dispel Magic/Dispel Psionics were interchangeable on the transparency rule. But here I have two questions remaining: - Do UMD / UPD skills work on the transparency rule? I wouldn't think so, or else why would they both even exist? - Can you have a weapon or other item that is magical AND psionic? Like a +1 Lucky Dragon-Bane Sword of Collision?
Racinante 06-20-07, 05:18 PM	Based on the response: Mechanically, however, there’s really no difference between the two categories of items. ... If you create an item that uses both spells and powers as prerequisites, you should decide whether is aura is identifiable as a school of magic or a discipline of powers. Yes, you can have an item that is both magical and psionic. Also, since there is no difference mechanically between psionic and magic items, I would infer that UMD and UPD were equivalent.
Bacris 06-20-07, 06:08 PM	Treating UMD / UPD as interchangable shouldn't be a problem, but by RAW, they are not the same. Just as Psicraft and Spellcraft are not interchangable (that doesn't mean they should or shouldn't be, just that they aren't). There's nothing to stop from a +1 flaming collision sword or any such instance :)
ninja1 06-21-07, 11:39 AM	- Do UMD / UPD skills work on the transparency rule? I wouldn't think so, or else why would they both even exist? I think UMD and UPD are equivalent under the transparency Variant. I believe they both exist because they are the norm, and not every DM will use the Variant rule.
The_Ditto 06-21-07, 01:16 PM	Keep in mind, that with full transparency ... something like Gloves of Dexterity could be either a "magic" item, or "psionic" item ... either way, you ID it the same way, you use it the same way .. etc. (Magic Item Compendium really gave us a good rule of thumb for this when it talked about using Psionic power "equivilents" to substitute for spells ... ie Animal Affinity for Cat's Grace, and craft your own "psionic" version of Gloves of Dexterity). When using transparency: UMD = UPD .. Spellcraft = Psicraft I still see a purpose for keeping knowledge: (Arcana and Psionics and Religion) seperate .. although "fudging" synergies by the DM would probably be a good call in certain situations .. :tiphat:
kyeudo 06-21-07, 02:48 PM	My question is this: Since Transparency only specifies that spells are equivalent to powers, not feats or magic items, alla orange prism ioun stones and metamagic rods, does this mean that Mage's Disjunction, which specifies that all magic items are disjoined, does not affect psionic items? RAW it seems to work, although an easy house ruling is that it does.
Bacris 06-21-07, 02:55 PM	When using transparency: UMD = UPD .. Spellcraft = Psicraft This would be a higher level of transparency than presented in the XPH. Not saying I disagree, just saying that's not how it works with the XPH rules. As for this does this mean that Mage's Disjunction, which specifies that all magic items are disjoined, does not affect psionic items? I'd have to go with this rule: Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics. It's not explicitly called out, so you can technically view it either way, since Transparency later details exactly what's covered, but that overarcing rule could be used as a basis for disjunction.
kyeudo 06-21-07, 03:07 PM	So I can use my wizard buddy's Rod of Metamagic Extend to extend my Time Hop?
The Crimson Dawn 06-21-07, 03:30 PM	As time hop is a psionic power right and extend spell is a metamagic feat then I would have to say no. Even if you have the ability to have UMD=UPD (which I like) metapsionic feats and metamagic feats are not the same and do not even work the same so I would have to say no.
kyeudo 06-22-07, 01:14 AM	Thus the problems with Transparency. Too bad non-transparency is even worse.
The Livewire 06-22-07, 07:46 AM	Meaning... Psionics and magic are transparent, unless it would benefit the psion. Oh, and as an aside, the sage today mentions MoE for the Psionificer, but doesn't mention the crossover rules in the MIC for the 'mages horn in on the psions' rules.
elondir 06-22-07, 08:51 AM	I prefer complete non-transparency. It prevents a psion from becoming just another magic-user.
Fafnir 06-22-07, 09:16 AM	Meaning... Psionics and magic are transparent, unless it would benefit the psion. I see it as the opposite. MIC supertransparency favors the Psion, as there's a larger amount of magic items than psionic ones.
Bacris 06-22-07, 09:46 AM	I prefer complete non-transparency. It prevents a psion from becoming just another magic-user. It also requires extra work on the DMs part... and can introduce game imbalance. I know from personal experience when my DM first used magic-psionic non-transparency. We switched pretty quickly to transparency when the psion's powers regularly bypassed spell resistence that the casters couldn't touch.
Caterpillar 06-22-07, 10:23 AM	I don't think that Psicraft = Spellcraft, IMHO it's two completely different things. When it gets to the meta'magic' rods... I suppose if you think about it the rod is just enhancing the energy of the spell/power to a certain affect... I think they should be useable with either. If not, has anyone put together metapsionic rods?
Fleem 06-22-07, 02:52 PM	By RAW, Psicraft != Spellcraft. Some people are fine with that level of transparency, though. Metapsionic rods: Same as the metamagic ones, except... um... they're crystal pyramids that you put on your head. ;)
Fafnir 06-22-07, 03:11 PM	When I DM, I usually rule UMD = UPD for simplicity's sake. On the other hand, Psicraft != Spellcraft. However, when studying a psionic/magic effect, I usually allow the use of both skills. The wrong one tends to give muddled results, like Illusions reading as both Telepathy and Psychokinesis.
Yadot 06-22-07, 03:37 PM	I think UMD and UPD are equivalent under the transparency Variant. I believe they both exist because they are the norm, and not every DM will use the Variant rule. Transparency isn't the variant rule, non-transparency is.