Touch Powers and Grapple Checks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Touch Powers and Grapple Checks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Orenmir
02-20-08, 10:34 AM The beginning of a debate was breached in a different thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=993586) concerning touch powers and grapple checks. The topic is:

Can a touch power be delivered along with a grapple check that deals unarmed damage?

Here's the scenario:

During a grapple, a PsyWar manifests Hammer as a swift action (succeeds his concentration check, of course). With BAB +11, he wins 3 grapple checks to deal unarmed damage. Does he get to add the +1d8 Hammer damage to each of the 3 unarmed damage rolls?

Here are some links to help with the debate:

The Hammer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hammer.htm) power
Touch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#touch) range description
Holding a charge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#touchPowersand HoldingtheCharge)
Orenmir
02-20-08, 11:43 AM I'll start by presenting both sides of the argument.

NO:
Powers that have a touch range (such as Hammer, Dissipating Touch, Dissolving Touch, and Hostile Empathetic Transfer) all specifically state that the power is delivered with a successful touch attack. Since a grapple check is not the same as a touch attack, you can't deliver a touch power with a grapple check.

YES:
The touch range description states that a touch power is discharged simply by touching your target. While grappling, you are obviously touching your target; therefore, the power is discharged onto him. Any power with a touch range descriptor will be discharged automatically while grappling.
Orenmir
02-24-08, 12:22 AM No opinions? I have to default to the guys on the Magic forum? :P ;)
Cravin
02-24-08, 12:54 AM A similar question I have wondered for a while.

If my Psywar casts Hammer on himself, walks into a bar, offeres to shake someones hand, and they accept it. Isn't the handshakee basically lowering his ac to 0? Would the hammer go off(assuming the psywar WANTED it to)?
Orenmir
02-24-08, 01:05 AM A similar question I have wondered for a while.

If my Psywar casts Hammer on himself, walks into a bar, offeres to shake someones hand, and they accept it. Isn't the handshakee basically lowering his ac to 0? Would the hammer go off(assuming the psywar WANTED it to)?

Well, Hammer only lasts one round -- 6 seconds. The PsyWar could augment the power to last as many rounds as he has manifesting levels. Then, yes, your barfly would get smacked with the Hammer when shaking hands.

Your logic tends to put your answer to my question in the "YES" category, no?
CrimsonDeath
02-24-08, 01:50 AM YES:
The touch range description states that a touch power is discharged simply by touching your target. While grappling, you are obviously touching your target; therefore, the power is discharged onto him. Any power with a touch range descriptor will be discharged automatically while grappling.

The problem with this line of reasoning is that you typically have to touch your target with a particular part of the body, and that the other person in the grapple is reacting to your actions. I don't think the rules regarding powers go into any great detail, but the rules for spells are rather explicit (at least in the Rules Compendium), and the situations are similar enough that I believe they carry over.

When you cast a touch spell, the charge gathers in your hand. Without a feat that allows you to do otherwise, casting another spell causes the charge to dissipate, as does touching anything other than the target with that hand. Also, attacking someone with a touch spell doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity because your hand is as dangrous as a weapon.

So, let's go to a grapple. You cast a (stilled) touch spell; your hand starts glowing or is covered in a sticky black film or whatever. The person you're grappling sees this, and sees that you're trying to touch him with it. He reacts as though you were trying to cut him with a dagger-- he grabs your wrist or forearm and tries to push your hand away from him.

A grapple check to do damage can represent any number of things-- a headbutt, biting your opponent's ear, crushing his head between your thighs, slamming him into an adjacent wall, or a simple bear hug. Not all of these will necessarily bring your hand in contact with any part of his body. Actually discharging a touch spell would more likely be best represented by a melee touch attack at a -4 penalty, just like wielding a light weapon in a grapple.
Orenmir
02-25-08, 11:02 AM The problem with this line of reasoning is that you typically have to touch your target with a particular part of the body, and that the other person in the grapple is reacting to your actions. I don't think the rules regarding powers go into any great detail, but the rules for spells are rather explicit (at least in the Rules Compendium), and the situations are similar enough that I believe they carry over.

When you cast a touch spell, the charge gathers in your hand. Without a feat that allows you to do otherwise, casting another spell causes the charge to dissipate, as does touching anything other than the target with that hand. Also, attacking someone with a touch spell doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity because your hand is as dangrous as a weapon.

So, let's go to a grapple. You cast a (stilled) touch spell; your hand starts glowing or is covered in a sticky black film or whatever. The person you're grappling sees this, and sees that you're trying to touch him with it. He reacts as though you were trying to cut him with a dagger-- he grabs your wrist or forearm and tries to push your hand away from him.

A grapple check to do damage can represent any number of things-- a headbutt, biting your opponent's ear, crushing his head between your thighs, slamming him into an adjacent wall, or a simple bear hug. Not all of these will necessarily bring your hand in contact with any part of his body. Actually discharging a touch spell would more likely be best represented by a melee touch attack at a -4 penalty, just like wielding a light weapon in a grapple.

I completely agree with you. Although, I was not certain about the "hand charging" rule -- thanks for the RC verification. I think that pretty much closes the case for me.

It's funny, your explanation nearly exactly matches one of mine from another post (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15134190&postcount=7)!
CrimsonDeath
02-25-08, 01:05 PM I completely agree with you. Although, I was not certain about the "hand charging" rule -- thanks for the RC verification. I think that pretty much closes the case for me.

It's funny, your explanation nearly exactly matches one of mine from another post (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15134190&postcount=7)!

Well, in your other post, you were incorrect about one thing. You can stack a touch power on top of your unarmed damage; that's from the Player's Handbook. However, you'll be swinging against your target's normal AC instead of his Touch AC.
Orenmir
02-25-08, 02:56 PM Well, in your other post, you were incorrect about one thing. You can stack a touch power on top of your unarmed damage; that's from the Player's Handbook. However, you'll be swinging against your target's normal AC instead of his Touch AC.

You must be referring to this sentence:
This also means you can't stack the damage from Hammer onto your normal unarmed damage.
I should have re-stipulated that I meant unarmed damage as a result of a successful grapple check.

The method you speak of is definitely valid. However, most optimized grapplers have a much better chance of succeeding at a grapple check than an unarmed attack (at -4) during a grapple.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Orenmir 02-20-08, 10:34 AM	The beginning of a debate was breached in a different thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=993586) concerning touch powers and grapple checks. The topic is: Can a touch power be delivered along with a grapple check that deals unarmed damage? Here's the scenario: During a grapple, a PsyWar manifests Hammer as a swift action (succeeds his concentration check, of course). With BAB +11, he wins 3 grapple checks to deal unarmed damage. Does he get to add the +1d8 Hammer damage to each of the 3 unarmed damage rolls? Here are some links to help with the debate: The Hammer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hammer.htm) power Touch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#touch) range description Holding a charge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#touchPowersand HoldingtheCharge)
Orenmir 02-20-08, 11:43 AM	I'll start by presenting both sides of the argument. NO: Powers that have a touch range (such as Hammer, Dissipating Touch, Dissolving Touch, and Hostile Empathetic Transfer) all specifically state that the power is delivered with a successful touch attack. Since a grapple check is not the same as a touch attack, you can't deliver a touch power with a grapple check. YES: The touch range description states that a touch power is discharged simply by touching your target. While grappling, you are obviously touching your target; therefore, the power is discharged onto him. Any power with a touch range descriptor will be discharged automatically while grappling.
Orenmir 02-24-08, 12:22 AM	No opinions? I have to default to the guys on the Magic forum? :P ;)
Cravin 02-24-08, 12:54 AM	A similar question I have wondered for a while. If my Psywar casts Hammer on himself, walks into a bar, offeres to shake someones hand, and they accept it. Isn't the handshakee basically lowering his ac to 0? Would the hammer go off(assuming the psywar WANTED it to)?
Orenmir 02-24-08, 01:05 AM	A similar question I have wondered for a while. If my Psywar casts Hammer on himself, walks into a bar, offeres to shake someones hand, and they accept it. Isn't the handshakee basically lowering his ac to 0? Would the hammer go off(assuming the psywar WANTED it to)? Well, Hammer only lasts one round -- 6 seconds. The PsyWar could augment the power to last as many rounds as he has manifesting levels. Then, yes, your barfly would get smacked with the Hammer when shaking hands. Your logic tends to put your answer to my question in the "YES" category, no?
CrimsonDeath 02-24-08, 01:50 AM	YES: The touch range description states that a touch power is discharged simply by touching your target. While grappling, you are obviously touching your target; therefore, the power is discharged onto him. Any power with a touch range descriptor will be discharged automatically while grappling. The problem with this line of reasoning is that you typically have to touch your target with a particular part of the body, and that the other person in the grapple is reacting to your actions. I don't think the rules regarding powers go into any great detail, but the rules for spells are rather explicit (at least in the Rules Compendium), and the situations are similar enough that I believe they carry over. When you cast a touch spell, the charge gathers in your hand. Without a feat that allows you to do otherwise, casting another spell causes the charge to dissipate, as does touching anything other than the target with that hand. Also, attacking someone with a touch spell doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity because your hand is as dangrous as a weapon. So, let's go to a grapple. You cast a (stilled) touch spell; your hand starts glowing or is covered in a sticky black film or whatever. The person you're grappling sees this, and sees that you're trying to touch him with it. He reacts as though you were trying to cut him with a dagger-- he grabs your wrist or forearm and tries to push your hand away from him. A grapple check to do damage can represent any number of things-- a headbutt, biting your opponent's ear, crushing his head between your thighs, slamming him into an adjacent wall, or a simple bear hug. Not all of these will necessarily bring your hand in contact with any part of his body. Actually discharging a touch spell would more likely be best represented by a melee touch attack at a -4 penalty, just like wielding a light weapon in a grapple.
Orenmir 02-25-08, 11:02 AM	The problem with this line of reasoning is that you typically have to touch your target with a particular part of the body, and that the other person in the grapple is reacting to your actions. I don't think the rules regarding powers go into any great detail, but the rules for spells are rather explicit (at least in the Rules Compendium), and the situations are similar enough that I believe they carry over. When you cast a touch spell, the charge gathers in your hand. Without a feat that allows you to do otherwise, casting another spell causes the charge to dissipate, as does touching anything other than the target with that hand. Also, attacking someone with a touch spell doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity because your hand is as dangrous as a weapon. So, let's go to a grapple. You cast a (stilled) touch spell; your hand starts glowing or is covered in a sticky black film or whatever. The person you're grappling sees this, and sees that you're trying to touch him with it. He reacts as though you were trying to cut him with a dagger-- he grabs your wrist or forearm and tries to push your hand away from him. A grapple check to do damage can represent any number of things-- a headbutt, biting your opponent's ear, crushing his head between your thighs, slamming him into an adjacent wall, or a simple bear hug. Not all of these will necessarily bring your hand in contact with any part of his body. Actually discharging a touch spell would more likely be best represented by a melee touch attack at a -4 penalty, just like wielding a light weapon in a grapple. I completely agree with you. Although, I was not certain about the "hand charging" rule -- thanks for the RC verification. I think that pretty much closes the case for me. It's funny, your explanation nearly exactly matches one of mine from another post (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15134190&postcount=7)!
CrimsonDeath 02-25-08, 01:05 PM	I completely agree with you. Although, I was not certain about the "hand charging" rule -- thanks for the RC verification. I think that pretty much closes the case for me. It's funny, your explanation nearly exactly matches one of mine from another post (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15134190&postcount=7)! Well, in your other post, you were incorrect about one thing. You can stack a touch power on top of your unarmed damage; that's from the Player's Handbook. However, you'll be swinging against your target's normal AC instead of his Touch AC.
Orenmir 02-25-08, 02:56 PM	Well, in your other post, you were incorrect about one thing. You can stack a touch power on top of your unarmed damage; that's from the Player's Handbook. However, you'll be swinging against your target's normal AC instead of his Touch AC. You must be referring to this sentence: This also means you can't stack the damage from Hammer onto your normal unarmed damage. I should have re-stipulated that I meant unarmed damage as a result of a successful grapple check. The method you speak of is definitely valid. However, most optimized grapplers have a much better chance of succeeding at a grapple check than an unarmed attack (at -4) during a grapple.