True mind switch and hit points [Archive] - Wizards Community

True mind switch and hit points [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TheCobra
04-21-08, 11:30 AM How does keeping your hit points work? Does that mean future Constitution changes don't affect your hit point total? This would be a severe penalty. Does it mean you keep your old score for the purposes of hit points?

Also, does it mean you can forever keep the effects of Constitution boosts before the switch? I know I've seen this claimed.
Metafictional
04-21-08, 02:45 PM It's basically similar to how polymorph isn't allowed to adjust your hit points; no mind switch into a high Con body to powergame past having a low Con of your own. : )

The strange thing about this is that, yes, your hit points are always going to be based on the Con your original body had. As for boosts, if you mean anything with a duration, when the duration expires, the bonus hit points would go with it.

Basically, let's say you are a 13 Con Psion. You Mind Switch into the body of a 18 Strength Barbarian. Your Con is now 18 (13 for hp calculation). If your Con goes up by 4 points, it would be 22 (13 for hp calculation). If you raise your Con with a level-up bonus, inherent bonus, whatever, the same applies.

If your Con is penalized, the same thing applies. About the only exception I can think of would be if your new body takes an aging penalty. I can't see why that would affect "your" Constitution.

Of course, the reverse is also true, an 18 Con Psion who Mind Switches into the body of a Con 8 Elf has a Con of 8 (18 for hp purposes only) which is just as crazy. : )
TheCobra
04-21-08, 03:52 PM It's basically similar to how polymorph isn't allowed to adjust your hit points

Note that not everyone interprets polymorph this way. There's considerable support for the idea that such Con changes does indeed affect hit points. That old Rules of the Game article, for example, and the PHB glossary. The wild shape errata can also be seen as evidence in favor of this view.

Personally, I find the new wild shape rather problematic. Having two Con scores is really weird. This has been discussed at length on these boards. I guess this can be seen as similar.

Your Con is now 18 (13 for hp calculation). If your Con goes up by 4 points, it would be 22 (13 for hp calculation). If you raise your Con with a level-up bonus, inherent bonus, whatever, the same applies.

If so, this royally sucks once epic buffs start being thrown around. If your hit points are forever based on your natural, unmodified Con score, you're going to die rather easily. I've never seen wild shape treated this way.
CrimsonDeath
04-21-08, 04:27 PM Personally, I find the new wild shape rather problematic. Having two Con scores is really weird. This has been discussed at length on these boards. I guess this can be seen as similar.

It's not so weird with Wild Shape because theoretically, you eventually revert to your natural form. And the only thing that's based off your natural Constitution is HP; you use your current form's Constitution for everything else.

Furthermore, this is why my Druids are typically Dwarves or Gnomes-- often, the character will have a higher natural Constitution than whatever he's Wild Shaping into. So what if I have to dump Strength and Dex? Those don't matter at all in Wild Shape. Does a Druid really need three ability scores he can completely ignore after level 6?

And if a Druid can do it, so can a Psion. But then, I can't think of why (mechanically) your old Constitution would apply to levels you gain after permanently acquiring a new Constitution score. Especially if your old body no longer even exists (which might be the case with TMS).
Metafictional
04-21-08, 06:07 PM No, it doesn't make sense, and really, it doesn't have to. This sort of rule exists to help keep your game balanced, since it gets really weird when players find ways to make their actual ability scores irrelevant ("Ha, you laughed at my Strength of 6, but look, now I'm a War Troll! Ho ho ho!").

That having been said, because it's a mechanic that exists solely for game balance, the DM has the option to throw it right out if she is convinced she can keep her game running on an even keel.

Long before I ever saw a Str 6 Gnome Druid, I was ruling that the stat boosts from Wild Shape were based on your actual stats; I had less issue with Str 20 Half-Orc Druids getting Str 32 at level 5 than Str 4 Kobold Druids getting Str 22 the same way...but that's my game. Others may feel quite differently about the subject.
TheCobra
04-22-08, 09:08 PM But then, I can't think of why (mechanically) your old Constitution would apply to levels you gain after permanently acquiring a new Constitution score. Especially if your old body no longer even exists (which might be the case with TMS).

I think that's what confuses be about the power. It doesn't say you keep your Con for the purpose of determine hit points. It just says you keep your hit points. Folks have used the ambiguity to claim it makes temporary Con buffs last forever.

Anyways, the character has to be affected by Con boosts after using the power. It's too mean otherwise.

Player 1: "Hey, buddy, we just made this sweet epic ritual that grants a permanent +30 enhancement bonus to Con. We'll each gain 375 hit points. Will you contribute 17 power points to the cause?"

DM: "Because of true mind switch, the Con bonus won't help you."

Player 2: :mad:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheCobra 04-21-08, 11:30 AM	How does keeping your hit points work? Does that mean future Constitution changes don't affect your hit point total? This would be a severe penalty. Does it mean you keep your old score for the purposes of hit points? Also, does it mean you can forever keep the effects of Constitution boosts before the switch? I know I've seen this claimed.
Metafictional 04-21-08, 02:45 PM	It's basically similar to how polymorph isn't allowed to adjust your hit points; no mind switch into a high Con body to powergame past having a low Con of your own. : ) The strange thing about this is that, yes, your hit points are always going to be based on the Con your original body had. As for boosts, if you mean anything with a duration, when the duration expires, the bonus hit points would go with it. Basically, let's say you are a 13 Con Psion. You Mind Switch into the body of a 18 Strength Barbarian. Your Con is now 18 (13 for hp calculation). If your Con goes up by 4 points, it would be 22 (13 for hp calculation). If you raise your Con with a level-up bonus, inherent bonus, whatever, the same applies. If your Con is penalized, the same thing applies. About the only exception I can think of would be if your new body takes an aging penalty. I can't see why that would affect "your" Constitution. Of course, the reverse is also true, an 18 Con Psion who Mind Switches into the body of a Con 8 Elf has a Con of 8 (18 for hp purposes only) which is just as crazy. : )
TheCobra 04-21-08, 03:52 PM	It's basically similar to how polymorph isn't allowed to adjust your hit points Note that not everyone interprets polymorph this way. There's considerable support for the idea that such Con changes does indeed affect hit points. That old Rules of the Game article, for example, and the PHB glossary. The wild shape errata can also be seen as evidence in favor of this view. Personally, I find the new wild shape rather problematic. Having two Con scores is really weird. This has been discussed at length on these boards. I guess this can be seen as similar. Your Con is now 18 (13 for hp calculation). If your Con goes up by 4 points, it would be 22 (13 for hp calculation). If you raise your Con with a level-up bonus, inherent bonus, whatever, the same applies. If so, this royally sucks once epic buffs start being thrown around. If your hit points are forever based on your natural, unmodified Con score, you're going to die rather easily. I've never seen wild shape treated this way.
CrimsonDeath 04-21-08, 04:27 PM	Personally, I find the new wild shape rather problematic. Having two Con scores is really weird. This has been discussed at length on these boards. I guess this can be seen as similar. It's not so weird with Wild Shape because theoretically, you eventually revert to your natural form. And the only thing that's based off your natural Constitution is HP; you use your current form's Constitution for everything else. Furthermore, this is why my Druids are typically Dwarves or Gnomes-- often, the character will have a higher natural Constitution than whatever he's Wild Shaping into. So what if I have to dump Strength and Dex? Those don't matter at all in Wild Shape. Does a Druid really need three ability scores he can completely ignore after level 6? And if a Druid can do it, so can a Psion. But then, I can't think of why (mechanically) your old Constitution would apply to levels you gain after permanently acquiring a new Constitution score. Especially if your old body no longer even exists (which might be the case with TMS).
Metafictional 04-21-08, 06:07 PM	No, it doesn't make sense, and really, it doesn't have to. This sort of rule exists to help keep your game balanced, since it gets really weird when players find ways to make their actual ability scores irrelevant ("Ha, you laughed at my Strength of 6, but look, now I'm a War Troll! Ho ho ho!"). That having been said, because it's a mechanic that exists solely for game balance, the DM has the option to throw it right out if she is convinced she can keep her game running on an even keel. Long before I ever saw a Str 6 Gnome Druid, I was ruling that the stat boosts from Wild Shape were based on your actual stats; I had less issue with Str 20 Half-Orc Druids getting Str 32 at level 5 than Str 4 Kobold Druids getting Str 22 the same way...but that's my game. Others may feel quite differently about the subject.
TheCobra 04-22-08, 09:08 PM	But then, I can't think of why (mechanically) your old Constitution would apply to levels you gain after permanently acquiring a new Constitution score. Especially if your old body no longer even exists (which might be the case with TMS). I think that's what confuses be about the power. It doesn't say you keep your Con for the purpose of determine hit points. It just says you keep your hit points. Folks have used the ambiguity to claim it makes temporary Con buffs last forever. Anyways, the character has to be affected by Con boosts after using the power. It's too mean otherwise. Player 1: "Hey, buddy, we just made this sweet epic ritual that grants a permanent +30 enhancement bonus to Con. We'll each gain 375 hit points. Will you contribute 17 power points to the cause?" DM: "Because of true mind switch, the Con bonus won't help you." Player 2: :mad: