Trying to ensure success (True Mindswitch) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Trying to ensure success (True Mindswitch) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
M3
07-02-07, 10:06 AM Ok the diabolical plan is to have a wizard Gate a Solar to stand guard over a bound foe, allowing no harm to come to him. Having the guard post be within range of the TMS. (Bound foe, Psion all chained up ECT...)

This should allow enough time to manifest the 1 minute TMS. Problem, he still has PR/SR and a very decent will save. How can I hedge my bets?

Should I have the Solar engage in combat and wait until I can use Microcosm to neutralize him? Then ensure he is rendered unconscious.

This brings up another question, if he is unconscious is he considered willing. Thus having no will save and no SR/PR?

Any suggestions on how to gain the Solars body would be great. The Ranger/Psion/Slayer will be ML 21 by the time he is able to access TMS. I can psy reform anything to meet plans. Looking for clever indisputable means to succeed.

Thanks...
CrimsonDeath
07-02-07, 11:21 AM There are all the standard tricks-- Enervation/Energy Drain, (Limited) Wish/Miracle/Bend Reality/Reality Revision, Assay Spell Resistance, (Greater) Power Penetration/Overchannel, Psionatrix of Telepathy/(Greater) Psionic Endowment...
Lycanthromancer
07-02-07, 11:35 AM Ego whip it into submission, enervate it through some means, until it's below 10 HD, then use your true mind switch. That should get 'er done. If you use psychic reformation to get Greater Power Penetration, you shouldn't have many problems with its spell resistance.
InkBlot
07-02-07, 01:42 PM This brings up another question, if he is unconscious is he considered willing. Thus having no will save and no SR/PR?
Spell/Power Resistance is always on, even if you're unconscious or willing. In order to deactivate your Spell/Power Resistance you must use a standard action each round. The only exception is that you always automatically overcome your own S/PR.
M3
07-02-07, 02:52 PM Thanks for the information, I will put it all to good.... ahem evil use =)
CrimsonDeath
07-02-07, 02:54 PM Of course, with Overchannel + Greater Power Penetration, you can bump your ML check to +32...
Lokiyn
07-02-07, 06:16 PM Unconscious != Save Failure

The Rules are clear, unconscious persons are considered to be willing only if the spell has “willing target”.

The text governing this is

Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.

Which is different from
A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.

Even unconscious people still get to make saves, the only exception is if the spell is restricted to willing targets.
CrimsonDeath
07-02-07, 06:59 PM I don't think unconscious character get reflex saves, since they're immobile...
M3
07-04-07, 10:03 PM Another issue I discovered during my research, is that all Angels have a protective aura. Which among other things acts as a lesser globe of invulnerability. Wouldn't this protect the Solar from the Ego Whip approach?

Forcing another tactic.

Specific feed back very welcome.

Thank you!!
Rageheart
07-05-07, 04:54 PM Set up a uber Null-psionic feild and manifest your True Mund Switch from behind a tower sheild?
crizhII
07-05-07, 05:25 PM We're talking about an epic character here right?

Does he have Practiced Manifester? What is his Character Level?

You can pretty easily overwhelm the Solar's PR with Psionic Mastery and either Overchannel or Practiced Manifester both of which will boost your ML high enough not to use any of the Enervation cheese and to just take 10 to beat the PR.

The save is a different story. I would suggest Metaconcert. That could get a little funky depending on which mind the DM wants to stick in the Solar at that point. You could just Dominate him with Metaconcert and compel him to forego his save against the Mind Switch. Stand some Red-shirts next to the Solar and Dominate the lot of them, max the duration and the DC will be 40+.
CrimsonDeath
07-05-07, 06:22 PM Keep in mind that a Solar, as an Angel, is constantly protected by a Magic Circle against Evil effect. If the DM considers (True) Mind Switch to be a posession effect, you'll have to dispel that first (and then True Mind Switch on the same round if he's conscious, since the Magic Circle comes back at the beginning of the Solar's turn). Needless to say, this means that Charm, Suggestion, and Dominate won't be much help.
crizhII
07-06-07, 08:33 AM Keep in mind that a Solar, as an Angel, is constantly protected by a Magic Circle against Evil effect. If the DM considers (True) Mind Switch to be a posession effect, you'll have to dispel that first (and then True Mind Switch on the same round if he's conscious, since the Magic Circle comes back at the beginning of the Solar's turn). Needless to say, this means that Charm, Suggestion, and Dominate won't be much help.

Hadn't thought about the circle...

That won't stop him being Dominated, it will just stop you issuing him commands. I would suggest nailing him with Dominate, then you can dispel the circle and issue a single instruction not to put it back up. For extra cheese you could link the Mind Switch to the Dispel.
CrimsonDeath
07-06-07, 04:02 PM Hmm... Can you target a magical effect that's active on a creature, without affecting other effects on that creature? If you can't, Dominating him first won't work.
Fleem
07-06-07, 04:21 PM I don't think unconscious character get reflex saves, since they're immobile...

Somewhere (maybe sage advice or rules of the game), there was a ruling that paralyzed/unconscious (I forget exactly what state) critters still get reflex saves, but their dex mod is -5 for the save. The rationale being that you can still be lucky, even if you can't move.
crizhII
07-06-07, 06:23 PM Hmm... Can you target a magical effect that's active on a creature, without affecting other effects on that creature? If you can't, Dominating him first won't work.

You can choose to target a single power with Dispel Psionics.
Salick
07-09-07, 03:48 PM If you have a wizard buddy buy him some mind fog scrolls. After you do some wisdom damage to the creature you which to switch with have them cast the scrolls. I believe that gives creatures that fail the save vs it -10 to will saves for some time.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
M3 07-02-07, 10:06 AM	Ok the diabolical plan is to have a wizard Gate a Solar to stand guard over a bound foe, allowing no harm to come to him. Having the guard post be within range of the TMS. (Bound foe, Psion all chained up ECT...) This should allow enough time to manifest the 1 minute TMS. Problem, he still has PR/SR and a very decent will save. How can I hedge my bets? Should I have the Solar engage in combat and wait until I can use Microcosm to neutralize him? Then ensure he is rendered unconscious. This brings up another question, if he is unconscious is he considered willing. Thus having no will save and no SR/PR? Any suggestions on how to gain the Solars body would be great. The Ranger/Psion/Slayer will be ML 21 by the time he is able to access TMS. I can psy reform anything to meet plans. Looking for clever indisputable means to succeed. Thanks...
CrimsonDeath 07-02-07, 11:21 AM	There are all the standard tricks-- Enervation/Energy Drain, (Limited) Wish/Miracle/Bend Reality/Reality Revision, Assay Spell Resistance, (Greater) Power Penetration/Overchannel, Psionatrix of Telepathy/(Greater) Psionic Endowment...
Lycanthromancer 07-02-07, 11:35 AM	Ego whip it into submission, enervate it through some means, until it's below 10 HD, then use your true mind switch. That should get 'er done. If you use psychic reformation to get Greater Power Penetration, you shouldn't have many problems with its spell resistance.
InkBlot 07-02-07, 01:42 PM	This brings up another question, if he is unconscious is he considered willing. Thus having no will save and no SR/PR? Spell/Power Resistance is always on, even if you're unconscious or willing. In order to deactivate your Spell/Power Resistance you must use a standard action each round. The only exception is that you always automatically overcome your own S/PR.
M3 07-02-07, 02:52 PM	Thanks for the information, I will put it all to good.... ahem evil use =)
CrimsonDeath 07-02-07, 02:54 PM	Of course, with Overchannel + Greater Power Penetration, you can bump your ML check to +32...
Lokiyn 07-02-07, 06:16 PM	Unconscious != Save Failure The Rules are clear, unconscious persons are considered to be willing only if the spell has “willing target”. The text governing this is Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing. Which is different from A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality. Even unconscious people still get to make saves, the only exception is if the spell is restricted to willing targets.
CrimsonDeath 07-02-07, 06:59 PM	I don't think unconscious character get reflex saves, since they're immobile...
M3 07-04-07, 10:03 PM	Another issue I discovered during my research, is that all Angels have a protective aura. Which among other things acts as a lesser globe of invulnerability. Wouldn't this protect the Solar from the Ego Whip approach? Forcing another tactic. Specific feed back very welcome. Thank you!!
Rageheart 07-05-07, 04:54 PM	Set up a uber Null-psionic feild and manifest your True Mund Switch from behind a tower sheild?
crizhII 07-05-07, 05:25 PM	We're talking about an epic character here right? Does he have Practiced Manifester? What is his Character Level? You can pretty easily overwhelm the Solar's PR with Psionic Mastery and either Overchannel or Practiced Manifester both of which will boost your ML high enough not to use any of the Enervation cheese and to just take 10 to beat the PR. The save is a different story. I would suggest Metaconcert. That could get a little funky depending on which mind the DM wants to stick in the Solar at that point. You could just Dominate him with Metaconcert and compel him to forego his save against the Mind Switch. Stand some Red-shirts next to the Solar and Dominate the lot of them, max the duration and the DC will be 40+.
CrimsonDeath 07-05-07, 06:22 PM	Keep in mind that a Solar, as an Angel, is constantly protected by a Magic Circle against Evil effect. If the DM considers (True) Mind Switch to be a posession effect, you'll have to dispel that first (and then True Mind Switch on the same round if he's conscious, since the Magic Circle comes back at the beginning of the Solar's turn). Needless to say, this means that Charm, Suggestion, and Dominate won't be much help.
crizhII 07-06-07, 08:33 AM	Keep in mind that a Solar, as an Angel, is constantly protected by a Magic Circle against Evil effect. If the DM considers (True) Mind Switch to be a posession effect, you'll have to dispel that first (and then True Mind Switch on the same round if he's conscious, since the Magic Circle comes back at the beginning of the Solar's turn). Needless to say, this means that Charm, Suggestion, and Dominate won't be much help. Hadn't thought about the circle... That won't stop him being Dominated, it will just stop you issuing him commands. I would suggest nailing him with Dominate, then you can dispel the circle and issue a single instruction not to put it back up. For extra cheese you could link the Mind Switch to the Dispel.
CrimsonDeath 07-06-07, 04:02 PM	Hmm... Can you target a magical effect that's active on a creature, without affecting other effects on that creature? If you can't, Dominating him first won't work.
Fleem 07-06-07, 04:21 PM	I don't think unconscious character get reflex saves, since they're immobile... Somewhere (maybe sage advice or rules of the game), there was a ruling that paralyzed/unconscious (I forget exactly what state) critters still get reflex saves, but their dex mod is -5 for the save. The rationale being that you can still be lucky, even if you can't move.
crizhII 07-06-07, 06:23 PM	Hmm... Can you target a magical effect that's active on a creature, without affecting other effects on that creature? If you can't, Dominating him first won't work. You can choose to target a single power with Dispel Psionics.
Salick 07-09-07, 03:48 PM	If you have a wizard buddy buy him some mind fog scrolls. After you do some wisdom damage to the creature you which to switch with have them cast the scrolls. I believe that gives creatures that fail the save vs it -10 to will saves for some time.