Unbodied Substitute ability [Archive] - Wizards Community

Unbodied Substitute ability [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DracoPhoenix
07-18-07, 04:20 AM Hi,

I was looking at the Unbodied (I looked into it as a result of another thread), to play a psion in the Eberron Caulderon campaign. Replacing a L5 Mystic Thurge to be.

Everything seemed positive until the DM properly read the rule on incorporeal and then looked at the Campaign.

I would be untouchable until at least L12, which even I agree would be a bit broken.

So, looking for alternatives, I thought how about swapping all but the 50% chance miss of being incorporeal (in terms of being hit in combat) for something akin to the Psion Uncarnates Assume Equipment ability.

This would also solve the fact that he's smart enough not to let me near Vow of Poverty with this race, thus needing equipment for things like armour, or general magic items.

Fair exchange? Any suggestions if not?

(It's also depressing that a 10L PrC can be done much better in a +4 LA race - if you're after a psion(telepath))
munin
07-18-07, 10:39 AM I'm not familiar with that campaign, but are you saying you won't be going up against ANY spells, magic weapons, spell-like abilities or supernatural abilities until level 12?!

Incorporeal creatures are 100% vulnerable (ie. just like anyone else) to spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, non-damage dealing effects of spells (fear, negative levels, etc.), and effects which deal positive/negative/force damage); 50% chance to ignore damage from spells and magic weapons, and 0% vulnerable to normal weapons. It would be a strange campaign which had nothing that could touch an incorporeal creature before level 12 (magic missile, warlocks, breath weapons, phrenic creatures, etc. are all 100% effective against incorporeal creatures).

Incorporeality is great and definitely worth part of the unbodied's LA, but it would be a strange campaign where they were "untouchable".

Can you be more specific about what your are proposing to swap? Does "all but the 50% chance miss of being incorporeal" include the ability to move through solid objects? ability to ignore armor/shields/natural armor with touch attacks? can you fall? trip or grapple? move silently? be smelled?
DracoPhoenix
07-18-07, 11:24 AM Can you be more specific about what your are proposing to swap? Does "all but the 50% chance miss of being incorporeal" include the ability to move through solid objects? ability to ignore armor/shields/natural armor with touch attacks? can you fall? trip or grapple? move silently? be smelled?

Well, it's the DMs call on how vulnerable I'm going to be - he's the one who knows what's coming :) (The campaign is a 1-20L campaign. We're currently 5)
And he seems to be of the opinion that I would be effectively invulnerable to most of the monster attacks we're likely to encounter between here and L12.

I was intending to retain the most of the incorporeal movement / abilities - walk through walls, fly, assume likeness etc, but also affected by mundane weapons (but with a 50% chance to miss), to minimise my DMs concern of me being unstoppable.

I return, for this limited corporeality, I would gain the Uncarnate's Assume Equipment - trading my "invulnerability" for the ability to further buff my self with armour and equipment.
munin
07-18-07, 12:56 PM I think it's worth trying but only playtesting will tell for sure. I'd recommend that you and your DM review how things have been going after a while. If things have been too easy (compared to the other members of your party), maybe reduce the number of items you can assume. If things have been too hard, you might even reduce the LA a little. I think the unbodied's LA breaks down as +2 LA for incorporeality (including fly speed), and +2 LA for very unbalanced racial ability score adjustments plus other abilities.

I'm thinking you can only use your Assume Equipment ability while your Assume Form ability is active, otherwise you're hurting for body slots.

You're still going to be 4 levels behind as a classed character even if you continue as a Telepath. Practiced Manifester will help a little, but your low number of power points will hurt you. You're going to have to get in and use your incorporeal touch attack sometimes. matter agitation and entangling ectoplasm are good 1pp powers.

Make sure your DM fully understands the vulnerabilities of incorporeal creatures. Some people have misinterpreted them before as 50% ignore vs. all supernatural effects which isn't at all the case.
CrimsonDeath
07-18-07, 03:48 PM There's also the fact that incorporeal creatures can hit other incorporeal creatures just fine. An Allip is only CR 3.
SlanderPanic
07-18-07, 04:05 PM An unbodied without class levels is ECL 8. By the time your party's high enough level to even think about having an unbodied PC in its ranks, most every monster you meet should have +1 weapons or otherwise be able to damage incorporeal creatures anyway. If they don't, the DM can always fudge it and give them some way. You shouldn't need to alter your race.

Besides. There's always magic missile.

Kudos to your DM for disallowing Vow of Poverty. The Vow gives you benefits because you're giving up something. If you've never needed corporeal posessions before, you're not exactly sacrificing anything.

I've got some experience using an unbodied, if you'd like some tips and tricks.
InkBlot
07-18-07, 04:08 PM Hi,

I was looking at the Unbodied (I looked into it as a result of another thread), to play a psion in the Eberron Caulderon campaign. Replacing a L5 Mystic Thurge to be.

Everything seemed positive until the DM properly read the rule on incorporeal and then looked at the Campaign.

I would be untouchable until at least L12, which even I agree would be a bit broken.

Of course it would be broken! You're breaking the rules. An Unbodied has 4 racial hit dice, in addition to it's +4 level adjustment.

You can't play an Unbodied until level 8 at the earliest. By level 8, most weapon-wielding enemies should be able to afford +1 weapons, monsters with spell/psi like abilities should be common enough, and ways to get 50% miss-chances are prevalent.
CrimsonDeath
07-18-07, 04:50 PM I don't suppose there's a savage progression?
DracoPhoenix
07-18-07, 05:38 PM Of course it would be broken! You're breaking the rules. An Unbodied has 4 racial hit dice, in addition to it's +4 level adjustment.

Good point, that'd probably go a long way to explaining that one then.

Bit of a blind spot on my part.

@SlanderPanic, I'd still be interested in your experiences with them.

Unrelated note: My DM said no in the end as he really doesn't like changing RAW (too many bad experiences there) and didn't like the untouchable until 12th.

Thanks though :). If only for pointing the ECL error.
forsaken1111
07-18-07, 07:21 PM Why not try the uncarnate prestige class?

It may not be exactly what you wanted, but close. You lose a few manifester levels (Which you would have lost anyway being a LA+4 race) and you legitimatly gain full incorproealty plus it doesn't become permenant until level 10 of the class, therefore you won't REALLY be untouchable by the campaign until you finish it out. Before then its limited time/day you can go incorporeal.

Also: Level adjustment is almost never worth it.
SlanderPanic
07-19-07, 12:10 PM Unbodied is one of the few races whose level adjustment is actually worthwhile. The average hit points of a PC unbodied with no class levels work out to being the same as an 8th level PC psion* and unbodied get a racial Con bonus. An unbodied without class levels has the same BAB as an 8th-level psion, a better Reflex save, but worse Fortitude and Will saves. They get a plethora of nice, powerful special abilities that make up for those low saves, however, including incorporeality.

Unbodied PCs tend to occupy a position in the party more akin to a rogue or bard than a manifester. The unbodied's level adjustment means it should never be the party's primary manifester. However, it's an infiltrator and a scout beyond compare, especially if teamed with a rogue or ranger. Keep this in mind when making your unbodied.

You're going to want to maximize Intelligence first and Charisma second. Fortunately, you get a +4 racial bonus on each of these and can add +1 to any one ability thanks to your four racial hit dice. You want lots of skill points and power points. You also want high save DCs for your powers and telekinetic force ability. All your best skills are Intelligence-based or Charisma-based, too.

For feats, Practiced Manifester is a must. You need the extra manifester levels and the extra power points. Psionic Body is also going to be very helpful. Focused Skill User will come in handy. If you're using telekinetic force a lot in combat, you may find Ability Focus worth using, too.

You're screwed with regards to equipment, unless your DM allows you to purchase incorporeal equipment from Ghostwalk. Even if he doesn't, you can probably pick up a ghost touch weapon and/or armor. You can also wield one corporeal item at a time with your telekinetic force ability.

The real strength of the unbodied is in its infiltration abilities. Take plenty of ranks in Bluff and Disguise. Since you're likely to advance as a telepath, you'll continue having Bluff as a class skill, but you won't have Disguise. Luckily, you can get up to a +14 bonus on Disguise checks. (You may want to talk to your DM about switching your racial manifesting ability to shaper rather than telepath.) You can slip right into an enemy stronghold, disguise yourself as the enemy leader's most trusted lieutenant, and then brain lock him until your buddies show up to take him out. Just don't let anyone try to hug you!

A favorite strategy of mine is to stay just beyond an enemy's reach and keep using telekinetic force to grab his armor, then lift him up. You can do this at will, so you can keep trying even if your enemy makes his save. Once you've got a hold of him, you have to keep him within 20 feet of you and you can only move him 20 feet per round. However, you can drop the enemy into an environmental hazard or simply carry him 100 feet and let gravity do the work. (When I was using an NPC unbodied against my PCs, the group's bard cast shatter on his own armor to avoid being dropped down a mine shaft.)

You can also float partially into a floor or wall, giving yourself cover. I generally float up into the ceiling. I also like for my unbodied to take harmless-looking shapes and pretend not to be involved in the battle. Nobody expects the unarmed kobold, small child, or pack mule to be a big threat when engaging a party full of armed adventurers. Remember, you have low hit points and low AC, so the best way to help your party is to avoid drawing attention to yourself until you can pull off a really nasty surprise.

Because PCs gain maximum hit points for their first hit die, they average out the same.
Psion: 4 + (2.5 * 7) = 21.5
Unbodied: 8 + (4.5 * 3) = 21.5
For NPCs, the psion pulls ahead slightly.
Psion: 2.5 * 8 = 20
Unbodied: 4.5 * 4 = 18
Again, though, if this is based on average Con (10 + racial mod,) the unbodied pulls ahead of, say, a human, with 22 hit points as opposed to the human's 18. You can never really play the game based on averages, though. An unbodied might roll all 1s on his hit dice, while the psion might roll all 4s.
DracoPhoenix
07-19-07, 01:05 PM ...

Thanks for the info - very useful :).
SlanderPanic
07-19-07, 01:43 PM No problem.
Also, don't forget that an unbodied needs to eat, sleep, and breathe. What they eat isn't specified in their monster entry, unfortunately, so you'll have to work that out with your DM. I suggest psychic residue. This requires the unbodied in the campaign to live around other sentient creatures in order to survive. Given their skill as infiltrators, it's possible some of the NPCs already in the campaign are unbodied. After all, the best opponent for an unbodied is another incorporeal creature. (Pitch it to your DM!)

Also also, unbodied have simple weapon proficiency by virtue of being monstrous humanoids. I'd imagine young unbodied are trained to either wield incorporeal weapons or to wield material weapons using telekinetic force. (Or both.) If the idea of creatures of pure mind having a tradition of weapons training doesn't make sense to you, you could talk to your DM about swapping this proficiency for a bonus feat. You might even be able to do the same for class-granted weapon and armor proficiencies, though it might be useful to pick up a ghost touch weapon or two at some point.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DracoPhoenix 07-18-07, 04:20 AM	Hi, I was looking at the Unbodied (I looked into it as a result of another thread), to play a psion in the Eberron Caulderon campaign. Replacing a L5 Mystic Thurge to be. Everything seemed positive until the DM properly read the rule on incorporeal and then looked at the Campaign. I would be untouchable until at least L12, which even I agree would be a bit broken. So, looking for alternatives, I thought how about swapping all but the 50% chance miss of being incorporeal (in terms of being hit in combat) for something akin to the Psion Uncarnates Assume Equipment ability. This would also solve the fact that he's smart enough not to let me near Vow of Poverty with this race, thus needing equipment for things like armour, or general magic items. Fair exchange? Any suggestions if not? (It's also depressing that a 10L PrC can be done much better in a +4 LA race - if you're after a psion(telepath))
munin 07-18-07, 10:39 AM	I'm not familiar with that campaign, but are you saying you won't be going up against ANY spells, magic weapons, spell-like abilities or supernatural abilities until level 12?! Incorporeal creatures are 100% vulnerable (ie. just like anyone else) to spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, non-damage dealing effects of spells (fear, negative levels, etc.), and effects which deal positive/negative/force damage); 50% chance to ignore damage from spells and magic weapons, and 0% vulnerable to normal weapons. It would be a strange campaign which had nothing that could touch an incorporeal creature before level 12 (magic missile, warlocks, breath weapons, phrenic creatures, etc. are all 100% effective against incorporeal creatures). Incorporeality is great and definitely worth part of the unbodied's LA, but it would be a strange campaign where they were "untouchable". Can you be more specific about what your are proposing to swap? Does "all but the 50% chance miss of being incorporeal" include the ability to move through solid objects? ability to ignore armor/shields/natural armor with touch attacks? can you fall? trip or grapple? move silently? be smelled?
DracoPhoenix 07-18-07, 11:24 AM	Can you be more specific about what your are proposing to swap? Does "all but the 50% chance miss of being incorporeal" include the ability to move through solid objects? ability to ignore armor/shields/natural armor with touch attacks? can you fall? trip or grapple? move silently? be smelled? Well, it's the DMs call on how vulnerable I'm going to be - he's the one who knows what's coming :) (The campaign is a 1-20L campaign. We're currently 5) And he seems to be of the opinion that I would be effectively invulnerable to most of the monster attacks we're likely to encounter between here and L12. I was intending to retain the most of the incorporeal movement / abilities - walk through walls, fly, assume likeness etc, but also affected by mundane weapons (but with a 50% chance to miss), to minimise my DMs concern of me being unstoppable. I return, for this limited corporeality, I would gain the Uncarnate's Assume Equipment - trading my "invulnerability" for the ability to further buff my self with armour and equipment.
munin 07-18-07, 12:56 PM	I think it's worth trying but only playtesting will tell for sure. I'd recommend that you and your DM review how things have been going after a while. If things have been too easy (compared to the other members of your party), maybe reduce the number of items you can assume. If things have been too hard, you might even reduce the LA a little. I think the unbodied's LA breaks down as +2 LA for incorporeality (including fly speed), and +2 LA for very unbalanced racial ability score adjustments plus other abilities. I'm thinking you can only use your Assume Equipment ability while your Assume Form ability is active, otherwise you're hurting for body slots. You're still going to be 4 levels behind as a classed character even if you continue as a Telepath. Practiced Manifester will help a little, but your low number of power points will hurt you. You're going to have to get in and use your incorporeal touch attack sometimes. matter agitation and entangling ectoplasm are good 1pp powers. Make sure your DM fully understands the vulnerabilities of incorporeal creatures. Some people have misinterpreted them before as 50% ignore vs. all supernatural effects which isn't at all the case.
CrimsonDeath 07-18-07, 03:48 PM	There's also the fact that incorporeal creatures can hit other incorporeal creatures just fine. An Allip is only CR 3.
SlanderPanic 07-18-07, 04:05 PM	An unbodied without class levels is ECL 8. By the time your party's high enough level to even think about having an unbodied PC in its ranks, most every monster you meet should have +1 weapons or otherwise be able to damage incorporeal creatures anyway. If they don't, the DM can always fudge it and give them some way. You shouldn't need to alter your race. Besides. There's always magic missile. Kudos to your DM for disallowing Vow of Poverty. The Vow gives you benefits because you're giving up something. If you've never needed corporeal posessions before, you're not exactly sacrificing anything. I've got some experience using an unbodied, if you'd like some tips and tricks.
InkBlot 07-18-07, 04:08 PM	Hi, I was looking at the Unbodied (I looked into it as a result of another thread), to play a psion in the Eberron Caulderon campaign. Replacing a L5 Mystic Thurge to be. Everything seemed positive until the DM properly read the rule on incorporeal and then looked at the Campaign. I would be untouchable until at least L12, which even I agree would be a bit broken. Of course it would be broken! You're breaking the rules. An Unbodied has 4 racial hit dice, in addition to it's +4 level adjustment. You can't play an Unbodied until level 8 at the earliest. By level 8, most weapon-wielding enemies should be able to afford +1 weapons, monsters with spell/psi like abilities should be common enough, and ways to get 50% miss-chances are prevalent.
CrimsonDeath 07-18-07, 04:50 PM	I don't suppose there's a savage progression?
DracoPhoenix 07-18-07, 05:38 PM	Of course it would be broken! You're breaking the rules. An Unbodied has 4 racial hit dice, in addition to it's +4 level adjustment. Good point, that'd probably go a long way to explaining that one then. Bit of a blind spot on my part. @SlanderPanic, I'd still be interested in your experiences with them. Unrelated note: My DM said no in the end as he really doesn't like changing RAW (too many bad experiences there) and didn't like the untouchable until 12th. Thanks though :). If only for pointing the ECL error.
forsaken1111 07-18-07, 07:21 PM	Why not try the uncarnate prestige class? It may not be exactly what you wanted, but close. You lose a few manifester levels (Which you would have lost anyway being a LA+4 race) and you legitimatly gain full incorproealty plus it doesn't become permenant until level 10 of the class, therefore you won't REALLY be untouchable by the campaign until you finish it out. Before then its limited time/day you can go incorporeal. Also: Level adjustment is almost never worth it.
SlanderPanic 07-19-07, 12:10 PM	Unbodied is one of the few races whose level adjustment is actually worthwhile. The average hit points of a PC unbodied with no class levels work out to being the same as an 8th level PC psion* and unbodied get a racial Con bonus. An unbodied without class levels has the same BAB as an 8th-level psion, a better Reflex save, but worse Fortitude and Will saves. They get a plethora of nice, powerful special abilities that make up for those low saves, however, including incorporeality. Unbodied PCs tend to occupy a position in the party more akin to a rogue or bard than a manifester. The unbodied's level adjustment means it should never be the party's primary manifester. However, it's an infiltrator and a scout beyond compare, especially if teamed with a rogue or ranger. Keep this in mind when making your unbodied. You're going to want to maximize Intelligence first and Charisma second. Fortunately, you get a +4 racial bonus on each of these and can add +1 to any one ability thanks to your four racial hit dice. You want lots of skill points and power points. You also want high save DCs for your powers and telekinetic force ability. All your best skills are Intelligence-based or Charisma-based, too. For feats, Practiced Manifester is a must. You need the extra manifester levels and the extra power points. Psionic Body is also going to be very helpful. Focused Skill User will come in handy. If you're using telekinetic force a lot in combat, you may find Ability Focus worth using, too. You're screwed with regards to equipment, unless your DM allows you to purchase incorporeal equipment from Ghostwalk. Even if he doesn't, you can probably pick up a ghost touch weapon and/or armor. You can also wield one corporeal item at a time with your telekinetic force ability. The real strength of the unbodied is in its infiltration abilities. Take plenty of ranks in Bluff and Disguise. Since you're likely to advance as a telepath, you'll continue having Bluff as a class skill, but you won't have Disguise. Luckily, you can get up to a +14 bonus on Disguise checks. (You may want to talk to your DM about switching your racial manifesting ability to shaper rather than telepath.) You can slip right into an enemy stronghold, disguise yourself as the enemy leader's most trusted lieutenant, and then brain lock him until your buddies show up to take him out. Just don't let anyone try to hug you! A favorite strategy of mine is to stay just beyond an enemy's reach and keep using telekinetic force to grab his armor, then lift him up. You can do this at will, so you can keep trying even if your enemy makes his save. Once you've got a hold of him, you have to keep him within 20 feet of you and you can only move him 20 feet per round. However, you can drop the enemy into an environmental hazard or simply carry him 100 feet and let gravity do the work. (When I was using an NPC unbodied against my PCs, the group's bard cast shatter on his own armor to avoid being dropped down a mine shaft.) You can also float partially into a floor or wall, giving yourself cover. I generally float up into the ceiling. I also like for my unbodied to take harmless-looking shapes and pretend not to be involved in the battle. Nobody expects the unarmed kobold, small child, or pack mule to be a big threat when engaging a party full of armed adventurers. Remember, you have low hit points and low AC, so the best way to help your party is to avoid drawing attention to yourself until you can pull off a really nasty surprise. Because PCs gain maximum hit points for their first hit die, they average out the same. Psion: 4 + (2.5 * 7) = 21.5 Unbodied: 8 + (4.5 * 3) = 21.5 For NPCs, the psion pulls ahead slightly. Psion: 2.5 * 8 = 20 Unbodied: 4.5 * 4 = 18 Again, though, if this is based on average Con (10 + racial mod,) the unbodied pulls ahead of, say, a human, with 22 hit points as opposed to the human's 18. You can never really play the game based on averages, though. An unbodied might roll all 1s on his hit dice, while the psion might roll all 4s.
DracoPhoenix 07-19-07, 01:05 PM	... Thanks for the info - very useful :).
SlanderPanic 07-19-07, 01:43 PM	No problem. Also, don't forget that an unbodied needs to eat, sleep, and breathe. What they eat isn't specified in their monster entry, unfortunately, so you'll have to work that out with your DM. I suggest psychic residue. This requires the unbodied in the campaign to live around other sentient creatures in order to survive. Given their skill as infiltrators, it's possible some of the NPCs already in the campaign are unbodied. After all, the best opponent for an unbodied is another incorporeal creature. (Pitch it to your DM!) Also also, unbodied have simple weapon proficiency by virtue of being monstrous humanoids. I'd imagine young unbodied are trained to either wield incorporeal weapons or to wield material weapons using telekinetic force. (Or both.) If the idea of creatures of pure mind having a tradition of weapons training doesn't make sense to you, you could talk to your DM about swapping this proficiency for a bonus feat. You might even be able to do the same for class-granted weapon and armor proficiencies, though it might be useful to pick up a ghost touch weapon or two at some point.