Up the Walls [Archive] - Wizards Community

Up the Walls [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Metafictional
04-09-08, 03:49 PM A player of mine has recently taken the Up the Walls Feat for their Psychic Warrior. I don't have any problems with the Feat itself, but now I'm curious as to how to apply Attacks of Opportunity to their movement along a wall.

The rules for three-dimensional combat in DnD are deliberately left somewhat abstract, as I found when I had to run my first aerial combat a few years back. While it seems logical to assume a character threatens in all spaces above (and below, if applicable) the space they occupy, I had been advised to only apply that to ground combat.

Now however, I have the situation of a character who is moving along a wall, and it's making my head hurt. : P

So I'm curious as to how other DM's and groups have adjudicated Up the Walls.

As a side note, I'm actually wondering if Up the Walls is as strong as it seems to be, since outside of a dungeon or urban location, it's less than optimal. Would allowing Up the Walls to avoid AoO's, or granting some sort of AC bonus against them (similar to mobility) be overpowered?
CrimsonDeath
04-09-08, 04:02 PM I'd say you do threaten spaces above you, within your normal reach. Shouldn't be too difficult with Up the Walls, because the character has to begin and end his movement on a horizontal surface (or climbing). Spider Climb, Levitate, and Fly are probably more troublesome, and those are Core.

Note that you get an attack bonus against targets on lower ground, so Up the Walls might work fairly well with Spring Attack.
InkBlot
04-09-08, 04:12 PM The high ground bonus is only +1, but it's better than nothing, and Spring Attack is very feat-intensive. Mounted combatants also get this +1, if their foes are smaller than their mounts are.

The way I run it, and every DM I've had has run it, is to imagine the battle-grid a 3d battle-cube. A monster with 15 feet of reach threatens 15 feet above, as well as 15 feet below if it's in the air, and 15 feet horizontally as normal.

It's tempting to try to get the vertical reach table (see the Jump skill in the PHB) into this somehow, but that's just no what that table is for. That table is basically "the height at which you can do pull-ups." Combat reach has to be more abstract because creatures can hop up a little higher, hold weapons in their hands, and attack with things other than their hands.

Up The Walls isn't very powerful, but it is very very cool. It's especially cool in the hands of a Monk, or other character with a ludicrous move speed.
AntiDjinn
04-09-08, 08:03 PM The vertical reach table is reproduced on page 93 of the Rules Compendium.

The game is supposed to take place in at least 3 dimensions. As a DM use as many as you feel comfortable with. If a PC has decided to make use of the vertical dimension, there is no reason why monsters should simply shrug and ignore him and act like they are only occupying the bottom 6 inches of the spaces they inhabit.

One DM posted a while back about a party of medium and small characters surrounded by giants. The wizard got the idea to fire off a Fireball straight up (there was no ceiling) and center it so at the lower portion would be above the party's heads but catch the giants. The DM was wondering if it was rules abuse, I thought it was an example of a character with 18+ Int demonstrating his ability to think in 3 dimensions.

A few games back a minor bad guy using Up the Walls (or something like it) almost reached a balcony to escape. My half-giant PsW decided to use her racial Stomp ability to bring him down. The DM wavered for a while: Stomp specifies that the shockwave travels through the ground, and only affects those in contact with the ground. I argued that since the guy was treating the wall as a floor, a Stomp delivered to what was serving as his ground should have the normal chance to knock him prone which would also make him fall. To remove all doubt, since my character also had Up the Walls, I took a 5 foot step onto the wall then used Stomp. The same wall became a floor relative to both of us, but I still think I should have been able to stand next to the wall and deliver a Stomp to it. We both fell since I had stopped my movement, but I only fell 5 feet. The other question that came up: Would she simply kick her foot through the wall? We figured the answer was No since Stomp does not state a chance for busting through a floor and it only does non-lethal damage (the DM did have windows shatter and pictures and such clattered off the opposite side of the wall).
MnemonicSV
04-12-08, 07:46 AM Straight out of the Up The Walls descriptive text:
Opponents on the ground can make attacks of opportunity as you move up the wall.
So, yeah, think that's a fairly good indication that you still make AoO against someone on a wall (as long as that text isn't taken too literally). It doesn't say anything about opponent's threat range being limited either, so I would just assume it remains the same as well (as a simplification to keep the game moving).

I personally houserule that Up The Walls may be used equally on any firm vertical object, not necessarily "walls" per se. Using things like posts or trees for example are acceptable, though it may call for a balance check if it's narrow (failure means you fall prone). If they were using body equilibrium at the time, I'd even let them move up something that isn't firm, like a curtain or a rope.

The thing I wonder about is whether or not it's OK to move from wall-to-wall with this feat; That is... can you make a 90 degree turn from one vertical surface to another vertical surface? A strict reading says "no," but I would allow it anyway. Maybe I'm just generous that way.
Metafictional
04-12-08, 04:40 PM I would have to say, if you can move from a wall to a ceiling, moving from wall to wall has to work. After seeing the power Wall Walker, I'm starting to wonder if Up the Walls should have been a Feat; it's complex enough to warrant a more in-depth discussion of it's benefit where it probably should have been a Power instead. But eh, I allowed it in my game as a Feat, so I'll just have to do what I can to make it work.
InkBlot
04-12-08, 09:13 PM You can't use Up The Walls to walk on the ceiling. It only works on vertical surfaces. As soon as you step onto the ceiling, gravity kicks in again and you fall.

Traversing the inner corner of two conjoined walls should work, since the other wall is still a vertical surface. It shouldn't be much different than walking across a curved wall.
Metafictional
04-13-08, 06:14 PM Well huh, for some reason I thought you could go on the ceiling, but a closer reading says otherwise. I'm now wondering exactly what Up the Walls is for, since by itself, it doesn't seem that cool. Combined with Wall Walker or Spring Attack, it's got some use, but...I dunno.
AntiDjinn
04-13-08, 06:18 PM You mean if you are stuck in a pit trap you would rather starve to death than run up the walls to get out? How about not triggering the trap in the first place by traversing the space along the wall rather than the floor? Not many trap makers think to put a pressure plate halfway up the wall. The most common use is probably getting in someone's face when they thought they were safely out of reach.
InkBlot
04-14-08, 02:08 AM Combined with Wall Walker or Spring Attack, it's got some use, but...I dunno.

If you can manifest wall walker then you don't really need Up The Walls. Sure, wall walker only lets you move at 1/2 speed, but it also lets you take double moves and lets you not fall at the end of your turn.

The usefullness of Up The Walls partly depends on the DM's ability to think in three dimensions while designing dungeons or other adventure sites. It also depends on the nature of the adventure sites, your ability to think in 3D, and the other abilities of your character. A shifter barbarian/ardent with the freedom mantle and Speed Of Thought*, who is attacking a small fortress with archers on the parapets, is going to love Up The Walls for letting him bring the pain to his enemies in a single move action.

I've seen Up The Walls in action. It can be very useful. In a forest, take to the trees. In a city, dash to the rooftops. In a cave, stride up to an alcove. In the mountains, run up to a clifftop. In the desert, regret not taking Skill Focus (craft sand castle) instead.

*This build can have a speed of 60 (70 while shifted) by 2nd level, and can be complete with Up the Walls by 3rd. The character and situation are from a game I ran, using a published adventure from WotC.
Slagger the Chuul
04-14-08, 03:49 AM In the desert, regret not taking Skill Focus (craft sand castle) instead.

Unless you're in the part of the desert that has something other than a sand dune, like a cliff, mesa, or something similar.

Don't use it to run on cacti unless you've got damage reduction.

Because they might get mad (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/sand_gallery/87634.jpg).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Metafictional 04-09-08, 03:49 PM	A player of mine has recently taken the Up the Walls Feat for their Psychic Warrior. I don't have any problems with the Feat itself, but now I'm curious as to how to apply Attacks of Opportunity to their movement along a wall. The rules for three-dimensional combat in DnD are deliberately left somewhat abstract, as I found when I had to run my first aerial combat a few years back. While it seems logical to assume a character threatens in all spaces above (and below, if applicable) the space they occupy, I had been advised to only apply that to ground combat. Now however, I have the situation of a character who is moving along a wall, and it's making my head hurt. : P So I'm curious as to how other DM's and groups have adjudicated Up the Walls. As a side note, I'm actually wondering if Up the Walls is as strong as it seems to be, since outside of a dungeon or urban location, it's less than optimal. Would allowing Up the Walls to avoid AoO's, or granting some sort of AC bonus against them (similar to mobility) be overpowered?
CrimsonDeath 04-09-08, 04:02 PM	I'd say you do threaten spaces above you, within your normal reach. Shouldn't be too difficult with Up the Walls, because the character has to begin and end his movement on a horizontal surface (or climbing). Spider Climb, Levitate, and Fly are probably more troublesome, and those are Core. Note that you get an attack bonus against targets on lower ground, so Up the Walls might work fairly well with Spring Attack.
InkBlot 04-09-08, 04:12 PM	The high ground bonus is only +1, but it's better than nothing, and Spring Attack is very feat-intensive. Mounted combatants also get this +1, if their foes are smaller than their mounts are. The way I run it, and every DM I've had has run it, is to imagine the battle-grid a 3d battle-cube. A monster with 15 feet of reach threatens 15 feet above, as well as 15 feet below if it's in the air, and 15 feet horizontally as normal. It's tempting to try to get the vertical reach table (see the Jump skill in the PHB) into this somehow, but that's just no what that table is for. That table is basically "the height at which you can do pull-ups." Combat reach has to be more abstract because creatures can hop up a little higher, hold weapons in their hands, and attack with things other than their hands. Up The Walls isn't very powerful, but it is very very cool. It's especially cool in the hands of a Monk, or other character with a ludicrous move speed.
AntiDjinn 04-09-08, 08:03 PM	The vertical reach table is reproduced on page 93 of the Rules Compendium. The game is supposed to take place in at least 3 dimensions. As a DM use as many as you feel comfortable with. If a PC has decided to make use of the vertical dimension, there is no reason why monsters should simply shrug and ignore him and act like they are only occupying the bottom 6 inches of the spaces they inhabit. One DM posted a while back about a party of medium and small characters surrounded by giants. The wizard got the idea to fire off a Fireball straight up (there was no ceiling) and center it so at the lower portion would be above the party's heads but catch the giants. The DM was wondering if it was rules abuse, I thought it was an example of a character with 18+ Int demonstrating his ability to think in 3 dimensions. A few games back a minor bad guy using Up the Walls (or something like it) almost reached a balcony to escape. My half-giant PsW decided to use her racial Stomp ability to bring him down. The DM wavered for a while: Stomp specifies that the shockwave travels through the ground, and only affects those in contact with the ground. I argued that since the guy was treating the wall as a floor, a Stomp delivered to what was serving as his ground should have the normal chance to knock him prone which would also make him fall. To remove all doubt, since my character also had Up the Walls, I took a 5 foot step onto the wall then used Stomp. The same wall became a floor relative to both of us, but I still think I should have been able to stand next to the wall and deliver a Stomp to it. We both fell since I had stopped my movement, but I only fell 5 feet. The other question that came up: Would she simply kick her foot through the wall? We figured the answer was No since Stomp does not state a chance for busting through a floor and it only does non-lethal damage (the DM did have windows shatter and pictures and such clattered off the opposite side of the wall).
MnemonicSV 04-12-08, 07:46 AM	Straight out of the Up The Walls descriptive text: Opponents on the ground can make attacks of opportunity as you move up the wall. So, yeah, think that's a fairly good indication that you still make AoO against someone on a wall (as long as that text isn't taken too literally). It doesn't say anything about opponent's threat range being limited either, so I would just assume it remains the same as well (as a simplification to keep the game moving). I personally houserule that Up The Walls may be used equally on any firm vertical object, not necessarily "walls" per se. Using things like posts or trees for example are acceptable, though it may call for a balance check if it's narrow (failure means you fall prone). If they were using body equilibrium at the time, I'd even let them move up something that isn't firm, like a curtain or a rope. The thing I wonder about is whether or not it's OK to move from wall-to-wall with this feat; That is... can you make a 90 degree turn from one vertical surface to another vertical surface? A strict reading says "no," but I would allow it anyway. Maybe I'm just generous that way.
Metafictional 04-12-08, 04:40 PM	I would have to say, if you can move from a wall to a ceiling, moving from wall to wall has to work. After seeing the power Wall Walker, I'm starting to wonder if Up the Walls should have been a Feat; it's complex enough to warrant a more in-depth discussion of it's benefit where it probably should have been a Power instead. But eh, I allowed it in my game as a Feat, so I'll just have to do what I can to make it work.
InkBlot 04-12-08, 09:13 PM	You can't use Up The Walls to walk on the ceiling. It only works on vertical surfaces. As soon as you step onto the ceiling, gravity kicks in again and you fall. Traversing the inner corner of two conjoined walls should work, since the other wall is still a vertical surface. It shouldn't be much different than walking across a curved wall.
Metafictional 04-13-08, 06:14 PM	Well huh, for some reason I thought you could go on the ceiling, but a closer reading says otherwise. I'm now wondering exactly what Up the Walls is for, since by itself, it doesn't seem that cool. Combined with Wall Walker or Spring Attack, it's got some use, but...I dunno.
AntiDjinn 04-13-08, 06:18 PM	You mean if you are stuck in a pit trap you would rather starve to death than run up the walls to get out? How about not triggering the trap in the first place by traversing the space along the wall rather than the floor? Not many trap makers think to put a pressure plate halfway up the wall. The most common use is probably getting in someone's face when they thought they were safely out of reach.
InkBlot 04-14-08, 02:08 AM	Combined with Wall Walker or Spring Attack, it's got some use, but...I dunno. If you can manifest wall walker then you don't really need Up The Walls. Sure, wall walker only lets you move at 1/2 speed, but it also lets you take double moves and lets you not fall at the end of your turn. The usefullness of Up The Walls partly depends on the DM's ability to think in three dimensions while designing dungeons or other adventure sites. It also depends on the nature of the adventure sites, your ability to think in 3D, and the other abilities of your character. A shifter barbarian/ardent with the freedom mantle and Speed Of Thought, who is attacking a small fortress with archers on the parapets, is going to love Up The Walls for letting him bring the pain to his enemies in a single move action. I've seen Up The Walls in action. It can be very useful. In a forest, take to the trees. In a city, dash to the rooftops. In a cave, stride up to an alcove. In the mountains, run up to a clifftop. In the desert, regret not taking Skill Focus (craft sand castle) instead. This build can have a speed of 60 (70 while shifted) by 2nd level, and can be complete with Up the Walls by 3rd. The character and situation are from a game I ran, using a published adventure from WotC.
Slagger the Chuul 04-14-08, 03:49 AM	In the desert, regret not taking Skill Focus (craft sand castle) instead. Unless you're in the part of the desert that has something other than a sand dune, like a cliff, mesa, or something similar. Don't use it to run on cacti unless you've got damage reduction. Because they might get mad (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/sand_gallery/87634.jpg).