Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zyrusticae 09-16-07, 07:20 PM	Sooo... A search didn't turn anything up (surprisingly), so I guess this topic hasn't been brought up yet. Anyone else looked at the genius of Use the Force and felt it should be transferred over to D&D psionics? A lot of this stuff seems like it should be basic psionic abilities that any manifester should be able to manage; things like Move Light Object and Telepathy (one emotion or thought at a time). Sense surroundings might take a little explaining, but it provides no combat bonuses (other than being able to spot someone while ignoring total cover -- woo!). Force Trance? Meditation. Seriously, the stuff's great. I can't believe this stuff isn't included in the Psicraft skill or some variant. As it is now, I have to wait until I can access 3rd level powers before I can even pick up my first telekinesis power - and even then, Psychic Warriors don't even have access to it (why?!). So, yeah. Anyone else?
Tempest Stormwind 09-16-07, 07:39 PM	Sooo... A search didn't turn anything up (surprisingly), so I guess this topic hasn't been brought up yet. Anyone else looked at the genius of Use the Force and felt it should be transferred over to D&D psionics? A lot of this stuff seems like it should be basic psionic abilities that any manifester should be able to manage; things like Move Light Object and Telepathy (one emotion or thought at a time). Sense surroundings might take a little explaining, but it provides no combat bonuses (other than being able to spot someone while ignoring total cover -- woo!). Force Trance? Meditation. Seriously, the stuff's great. I can't believe this stuff isn't included in the Psicraft skill or some variant. As it is now, I have to wait until I can access 3rd level powers before I can even pick up my first telekinesis power - and even then, Psychic Warriors don't even have access to it (why?!). So, yeah. Anyone else? I've been toying around with it for a while (I love Saga...) but haven't done a complete port. (And technically you can move light objects at level 1 with Far Hand, but that's not worth the power point.) Several of the Use the Force abilities were originally similar to 3e psionic talents (0-level powers): Search Your Feelings: Inkling (50% chance of giving you Augury effect) Move Light Object: Far Hand (now a 1st level power that didn't get a real upgrade) Telepathy: Missive (sorta; Missive is more precise, but Telepathy reaches over galactic distances) Sense Force: Detect Psionics There's no direct analogy to Sense Surroundings, but then again, that doesn't even show up in the Star Wars movies at all (it's strictly Expanded Universe, mostly used to explain the Miraluka species if I recall correctly).
Zyrusticae 09-17-07, 12:14 AM	Sense Surroundings is actually part of the explanation for Anakin's awesome pod-racing skills in episode 1. That is, he can ignore penalties from cover and concealment when making perception checks to notice obstacles from up ahead. Pretty neat stuff. And, yeah... "Far Hand" sucks. :P
Tempest Stormwind 09-17-07, 01:57 AM	Sense Surroundings is actually part of the explanation for Anakin's awesome pod-racing skills in episode 1. That is, he can ignore penalties from cover and concealment when making perception checks to notice obstacles from up ahead. Pretty neat stuff. I like to pretend that movie never existed. I liked Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, but that was about it. (I did actually enjoy the other two, though.) Still, I was under the impression lines like "he can sense things before they happen" (or whatever Qui-Gon said at that table) was in reference to the long-established Force ability of precognition (Fun drinking game: Take a shot whenever someone says "foreseen" or "destiny" in episode 5 or 6. You will be wasted), as opposed to noticing things through other things. But hey, I can understand that. Interestingly, I don't think any of the Force powers in D&D would be particularly unbalancing at the levels you can attain them with the exception of Force Lightning (remember, no Dark Side in D&D) and Farseeing (although this one isn't really problematic unless you have Visions). The problem comes in the cost -- in Saga, you get way more feats than D&D characters do, and there's lower caps involved. You'd probably start out strong but finish weak if you simply ported the existing Saga system over to D&D. If time allows (it probably won't) I might look into this a bit more. (As I said above, I love Saga.) (EDIT: I did forget to mention a custom power my shaper uses in place of Far Hand, though. It's a modification of the 3.0 Astral Spider talent, and is essentially "Summon Psicrystal" in many ways. I'll have to post that up sooner or later.)
Salla 09-17-07, 03:21 AM	Sense Surroundings is actually part of the explanation for Anakin's awesome pod-racing skills in episode 1. That is, he can ignore penalties from cover and concealment when making perception checks to notice obstacles from up ahead. Pretty neat stuff. And, yeah... "Far Hand" sucks. :P Well, that and the Force Pilot talent. :)
Ra-Tiel 09-17-07, 06:54 AM	I've been toying around with it for a while (I love Saga...) but haven't done a complete port. [...] Green Ronin has done something similar with the Force system from the revised Star Wars d20 game, called The Psychic's Handbook (http://www.greenronin.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=grr1306&Store_Code=1001&Category_Code=6). I don't own the book, but from the reviews I've read (like this (http://www.enworld.org/reviews.php?do=product&productid=119210) and this (http://www.gamingreport.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Reviews&file=index&req=showcontent&id=957)) it seems to be pretty good. Although I'm not sure if it was at all compatible to the new SW, as it appears they changed pretty much around with the Force mechanics. :thinks:
Tempest Stormwind 09-17-07, 11:02 AM	Although I'm not sure if it was at all compatible to the new SW, as it appears they changed pretty much around with the Force mechanics. :thinks: They did. Every Force power is tied to ONE skill: Use the Force. Use the Force is only a class skill for you if you have the Force Sensitivity feat (which first-level Jedi get for free, but any non-droid can pick up with a general feat). Use the Force, unlike other skills, can't even be used if you're not Force-sensitive. It can, however, be used untrained if you are. Use the Force has a few basic abilities (mostly mentioned above) that any Force-user can use. Some are trained-only, others aren't. Force powers are like ToB maneuvers. The Force Training feat gives you 1+Wis mod powers each time you take it, and you can take the same power more than once. (This replaces the RCR system where some uses were innate to a skill and others required disparate feats. You also get more feats in Saga. Finally, note that this isn't limited to Jedi -- since any character class can become a good Force-user this way, the Force Adept is no longer a base class.) In battle, make a Use the Force check to activate a given power. Depending on how high the result was, the power's effect augments (i.e. Surge -- the new version of the Force Speed and Force Leap chains of feats -- goes from +10'/+10 to Jump at DC 10 to +30'/+30 to Jump at DC 30). Most powers also improve if you spend a Force Point (action point) to improve them, but if you do you can't improve your Use the Force check (since like D&D you're limited to one action point spent in one round). Once you use a Force power, it's basically discarded until you spend a Force point to recover it, you roll a natural 20 on a Use the Force check, or the battle ends. Out of battle they can generally be used once per minute. Finally, the Dark Side rules changed a bit. You can get a number of Dark Side Points equal to your Wisdom before turning dark. [Dark Side] powers (Dark Rage and Force Lightning) still grant DSPs (and can't have their Use the Force checks improved by Force points), and you can't use [Light Side] powers (Sever Force and Vital Transfer) if you have any DSP. Atonement rules are slightly better-defined, too. Interestingly, you can get all of the Force powers for free online just like the maneuver cards if you look at the Saga web enhancements. That's just it in a nutshell.
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 09-17-07, 11:25 AM	I like to pretend that movie never existed. I liked Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, but that was about it. (I did actually enjoy the other two, though.) On the other side of things, I enjoyed that movie. Whatever kind of check it was (sense motive?), I rolled a natural 1 on it to judge people's reactions. :eek: :confused: basically sums up my response to learning most people didn't like Jar Jar Binks. I thought he was funny. I guess it just says something for my taste. Even more is said by the fact that I watched the entirety of Dungeons & Dragons 2: Wrath of the Dragon God without getting upset. I just laughed my :censored: off. In fact, without the role of Falazure, I never would have noticed the D&D logo on my Draconimicon. Or understood what that jibberish was in some sections. Yeah, my WIS must be a 3 or something . . . Anyway, on topic: Psionics is limited in being able to mimic the force like that. I guess it might be simple to port over the system. But reintroduction of 0-level powers and free manifestation would do a lot. Detect Psionics and Far Hand are not worth the power points. Just access the 3.0 SRD. Use CTRL + F to search for 0 level powers or talents, so as to minimize contact with that abomination. The free manifestation of talents was one of the not-so-horrid parts. Or so I've heard. (Remember: 3.0 was done by the time I learned the game).
Artector 09-17-07, 11:35 AM	Psionics has a fine system as is. If you were to have a "psionic Prestidigitation" skill it probably wouldn't unbalance anything. It might just add some mechanics to fluff (as a DM I'd let players do little things if they had a reason to be able to) How is sense surroundings strictly expanded universe? Wasn't that what Vader was doing since Episode III? I doubt he was sensing the future of him running into a wall and then deciding to move to the left. And I'm reasonably sure he didn't just have optical sensors in his helmet, the impression I always got was he was looking through the force.
Ra-Tiel 09-17-07, 03:37 PM	They did. [...] Ahh, cool. Thanks for explaining that. :D Interestingly, you can get all of the Force powers for free online just like the maneuver cards if you look at the Saga web enhancements. [...] Wow, didn't know that. *sneaks out of the forum for downloading* :schemes:
Tempest Stormwind 09-17-07, 04:40 PM	Ahh, cool. Thanks for explaining that. :D The only things I really left out are that certain talents (either on specific class' exclusive trees, or on the trees that are open to every character who has Force Sensitivity) replicate other Force skills and feats, usually by letting you substitute your Use the Force check for another skill. For instance, Sense is no longer a feat, but rather a collection of talents; one talent might let you replace your Pilot check with a Use the Force check, another might let you replace Perception with Use the Force (which, when combined with Sense Force or Sense Surroundings, is that whole "I sense your presence" creepiness). (Note that not all talents are like that; even in Sense, another talent would expand the use of Farseeing into viewing the past or the future, for instance.) Wow, didn't know that. *sneaks out of the forum for downloading* :schemes: Saving you some time. (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/forcepowercards) They even have current errata applied (most of which is an improvement; the only "problem" I've seen is that Force Grip went from OMFG to nigh-worthless.)
Ra-Tiel 09-17-07, 05:17 PM	The only things I really left out are that certain talents (either on specific class' exclusive trees, or on the trees that are open to every character who has Force Sensitivity) replicate other Force skills and feats, usually by letting you substitute your Use the Force check for another skill. For instance, Sense is no longer a feat, but rather a collection of talents; one talent might let you replace your Pilot check with a Use the Force check, another might let you replace Perception with Use the Force (which, when combined with Sense Force or Sense Surroundings, is that whole "I sense your presence" creepiness). (Note that not all talents are like that; even in Sense, another talent would expand the use of Farseeing into viewing the past or the future, for instance.) Now that is very cool! :D That makes me contemplate getting the book when it's out in a more "common" format (sorry, but I just really really dislike the 9"x9" format :shifty: ). Saving you some time. (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/forcepowercards) Thank you very much. :bow: They even have current errata applied (most of which is an improvement; the only "problem" I've seen is that Force Grip went from OMFG to nigh-worthless.) I remember something similar happening when the revised SW core rulebook came out. It's been too long that I've played any SW rpg, but I do remember that Force Grip and Force Lightning were also severely toned down in the earlier editions. Somehow, they seem to never get these things right. ^^
Zyrusticae 09-17-07, 07:37 PM	Hehe. Fat chance. They're not changing format anytime soon, what with all the costs for desktop publishing and everything. Personally, I love the new format. Fits in the hand well and is remarkably visually appealing. Anyway, I'll go look at those 0-level powers people're are talkin' about. Cheers!
Tempest Stormwind 09-17-07, 08:01 PM	Now that is very cool! :D That makes me contemplate getting the book when it's out in a more "common" format (sorry, but I just really really dislike the 9"x9" format :shifty: ). They won't republish in all likelyhood. However, you can do what I did -- browse a copy and see if it's worth it. I found that it was (although I hate the battle map they include and the stub left in the book when I punched it out). It's quite possibly the best d20 system I've seen, ever. I remember something similar happening when the revised SW core rulebook came out. It's been too long that I've played any SW rpg, but I do remember that Force Grip and Force Lightning were also severely toned down in the earlier editions. Somehow, they seem to never get these things right. ^^ Well, here they staggered the DCs for some Use the Force abilities. While it's possible to get Force Lightning at level 1 (it's a whopping 8d6 here!), it's going to be very difficult to actually trigger (doubly so because you can't use Force Points to improve a Use the Force check on a [Dark Side] power, and if you fail you don't actually get the effect but because you still expend the power you still get the DSP), and even if you do trigger it, you still need to beat the opponent's Reflex defense with your check result or else he just takes half damage. It's much more reliable to take that power once you have a few levels (and thus an increase to your skill checks) under your belt, and have likely fit in Skill Focus (Use the Force) as well (since, let's face it, the only characters to ever use Force Lightning (except perhaps the self-trained (and light-side!) Kyle Katarn) are all *extremely* adept at using the Force).
Sleepwalker13666 09-17-07, 08:07 PM	I've occasionally allowed Star Wars into some D&D games, usually one shots adventures that won't have an impact on my world, but not for my actually campaign, I haven't quite gotten the right balance that I'm happy with yet, but I am still open to the idea of working up a system. Right now I'm toying around with a new campaign idea, I plan to use star wars rules (D20) but not the characters or setting, and some of the elements from Call of Cthulu (D20) turning the "force" into something much darker. :devil:
Talkkno 09-17-07, 11:49 PM	Also, when Anakin and Obi-wan noctice the slugs coming at Padme im pretty sure they were using sense surroundings.
Ra-Tiel 09-18-07, 05:04 AM	They won't republish in all likelyhood. However, you can do what I did -- browse a copy and see if it's worth it. I found that it was (although I hate the battle map they include and the stub left in the book when I punched it out). It's quite possibly the best d20 system I've seen, ever. :thinks: Ok, perhaps I'm wrong, but I heard that the 9x9 format was only done for promotional purposes and reprints would be made in a more "common" format. But perhaps I'm just messing things up. Or I'm going nuts (*points at title*). :P Well, here they staggered the DCs for some Use the Force abilities. [...] I see. Well, 8d6 at 1st level is indeed a bit too much, even with the first HD tripled. But thanks again for taking your time to explain all that stuff. :D @Zyrusticae: I find the "new" format to be... well... "small". The SW Saga Corebook looks like a pocket book compared to the revised SW Corebook. :shifty:
Hida Reju 09-18-07, 09:43 AM	I got no problem with saga edition except with the Force rules. I can understand reducing it all to a single skill check to reduce skill overhead but to make force powers like ToB manuevers was a bad mistake. I liked the Vitality cost system much better since it balanced itself with your own hit points as a cost of drawing on the force.
Talkkno 09-18-07, 10:20 PM	I got no problem with saga edition except with the Force rules. I can understand reducing it all to a single skill check to reduce skill overhead but to make force powers like ToB manuevers was a bad mistake. I liked the Vitality cost system much better since it balanced itself with your own hit points as a cost of drawing on the force. Which is isn't really supported canon,and this is on the bit of extreme side, but why didn't palpatine kill himself every time he used a force storm? Those things are capable of taking a ship the size of Super Star Destroyer?
Sagetim 09-21-07, 03:02 AM	Which is isn't really supported canon,and this is on the bit of extreme side, but why didn't palpatine kill himself every time he used a force storm? Those things are capable of taking a ship the size of Super Star Destroyer? because it cost him 6 vp to start and 1 vp per ten minutes to maintain. Or, I dunno...because the DM said so? note: Force Storm is an actual ability in the Dark Witch of whateverthehellitscalled. It's in the Dark Side sourcebook for the original Star Wars d20 system. You know, when force lightning was a feat. also: instead of lightning at level 1, I'd pack a blaster rifle. More reliable, lower damage, but more reliable.
Tempest Stormwind 09-21-07, 10:36 AM	Not only that, I forgot to mention that Force Lightning can be Deflected (via lightsaber) as well as Rebuked (via the Spell-Turning-type power). The rifle can be deflected. On the flipside, though, the archetypal blaster rifle (the E-11) can also be used as a pistol if the stock is folded (pistols can make AoOs in Saga!), as well as being able to make area attacks or single attacks depending on how you use it. At the same feat cost for a Jedi learning Force Lightning, you can also pick up Burst Fire, which allows you to concentrate an autofire blast, dealing 5d8 damage (or 5d10 with a heavy blaster rifle). And none of this comes with a Dark Side Point Force Lightning is like the Mind Thrust of Saga, except that it isn't entirely useless as you go up in levels (except if you can't afford to gain DSP).
Sagetim 09-22-07, 01:01 AM	Not only that, I forgot to mention that Force Lightning can be Deflected (via lightsaber) as well as Rebuked (via the Spell-Turning-type power). The rifle can be deflected. On the flipside, though, the archetypal blaster rifle (the E-11) can also be used as a pistol if the stock is folded (pistols can make AoOs in Saga!), as well as being able to make area attacks or single attacks depending on how you use it. At the same feat cost for a Jedi learning Force Lightning, you can also pick up Burst Fire, which allows you to concentrate an autofire blast, dealing 5d8 damage (or 5d10 with a heavy blaster rifle). And none of this comes with a Dark Side Point Force Lightning is like the Mind Thrust of Saga, except that it isn't entirely useless as you go up in levels (except if you can't afford to gain DSP). Mind thrust isn't useless at higher levels...you just have to shatter the mind affect immunity that most seem to think of as a standard feature for their characters to have.
Tempest Stormwind 09-22-07, 02:34 AM	Mind thrust isn't useless at higher levels...you just have to shatter the mind affect immunity that most seem to think of as a standard feature for their characters to have. It's not a matter of the immunity, although that's there. It's a matter of the terrible range, the save negates, and that it's just damage with no debilitating effect (the save-negates part is the worst bit).