Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JulesCARV 03-04-07, 03:07 PM	I'm just wondering about this character concept: Suppose you're a telepath/thrallherd. You're pretty high-level. You take an erudite as a thrall. Since you're a telepath, you learn psychic chirurgery as one of your level 9 powers. You use psychic chirurgery to implant knowledge of psychic chirurgery in your thrall's mind, assuming that he doesn't already know it from a power stone. If your thrall didn't pick psychic reformation as a power at one point, you take it, and implant it in him (some of this is cheaper with power stone than with chirurgery, if you happened to pick up imprint power stone at some point, or if you cooperatively craft powerstones with your thrall). Now, you and your thrall come to some sort of deal: if he has powers you don't know in his repertoire, then he can implant them in you if you really want them. Furthermore, he might use psychic reformation and/or expanded knowledge combined with imprint powerstone to access some powers at your request. Even if you and your thrall share the cost of psychic chirurgery equally, this will be quite taxing on your thrall, costing 500 xp. He won't benefit from manifesting psy chi to expand your powers, and even if he doesn't know he's losing experience, he knows that it's a taxing, weakening experience. Thralls are generally loyal, but they won't put up with infinite abuse, so you might have to come to a deal with him. Maybe for spending 500 xp on psychic reformation, you give him 2500 gp? That's generally considered the fair "market price" for experience drains. Experience drains from adding new powers to his repertoire with the psychic reformation/imprint power stone combination and the gold costs of the power stones themselves would be similarly costly. If you're a telepath 9/thrallherd 10 with a level 18 erudite thrall, this combination gives you theoretical access to all psion/wilder powers, and all powers from disciplines, mantles, the psychic warrior list, etc, of 8th level or lower My question is, is this worthwhile? You'll be spending a lot of gold and experience pulling it off. You'll probably lag behind the party. On the other hand, you can learn five powers by you and your thrall collectively spending 5000 xp. It's the equivalent of learning five powers with a reality revision, or getting expanded knowledge five times. This sounds like a good deal, in theory. On the other hand, your thrall must be an erudite, which takes up a valuable "thrall" spot, which could have gone to a druid, or a rogue, or some other person your party might need more. An erudite, while different from a telepath/thrallherd, has fundamentally the same competencies, so it may be redundant in your party. What are your thoughts? Is this combination underpowered and not worthwhile? Worthwhile, but not super? Totally overpowered and broken? Your thrall wouldn't put up with it even if you tried to compensate him?
awaken_D_M_golem 03-04-07, 03:32 PM	Brilliant !! Someone posted , within the last year , a cost analysis of using PsyChirurgery. Someone else posted , now on the TO board , max # of believers from Thrallherd. budda bing ... just because your Army only has 'two' Erudites at the top ... :rolleyes: I guess you're talking about losing 1 level , to gain all powers. Consequentially , your army ain't as big. I'd say "not broke". otoh - you didn't mention ThoughtBottle ... 1) ... you've got your WidenAffinityField up and running 2) ... Metamind with BestowPower 3) ... hey , even some DivineMinds providing extra oomph :D { cough , cough } 4) ... Mindlink going on all of them 5) ... everybody has access to all powers via the thingy after broke-powerstone-mountain 6) ... just Psicraft 1 rank , and Aid Another get quite nutty Q - is this THE most powerful army ?!
JulesCARV 03-04-07, 04:23 PM	Oh... something just occured to me: you can get access to level 9 powers not on the psion/wilder list beyond DM fiat, even though expanded knowledge only goes up to level 8. You'd use reality revision to create a power stone with that power. To be honest, I'm not quite clear on how imprint power stone works for these purposes. I can see three interpretations: Weakest interpretation: You can only create a power stone with a single power. You spend 5000 xp, and end up with a single-power, single-use power stone of a 9th level power worth 3825 gp, and pay an additional 306 XP for double the XP cost of crafting the power stone. Alternatively, power stone can have more than one usage of the same power, but cannot have more than one power, which is the same as far as erudite-learning is concerned. Middle interpreation: You can create a power stone with up to six powers on it, since a "major" power stone has 1d6 powers. Thus, you'd use reality revision to create a powerstone with six ninth level powers on it. This power stone is worth 22,950 gp. (3825 * 6). You pay 5000 xp for reality revision plus 1836 xp for double the crafting price of a 22,950 gp item. Strong but implausible interpretation: The price for a power stone with six ninth level powers on it is 3825 gp, not 3825 gp per power. Crafting price for an imprinted power stone is not affected by the number of powers in the power stone. (this stems from a rather mindless interpretation of the Table of Power Stone Levels)
skywyze 03-04-07, 05:34 PM	I'm actually in a PnP campaign where my character does exactly this. She's currently a level 5 telepath/2 uncarnate. She's spent every dime she earns on paying her wealthy, powerful uncle to implant powers in her mind to help protect her. So far it's the most fun character concept I've ever played. Sure, you'll never get neat gear, but you'll be the ultimate representation of the "Mind over matter" concept. The true purpose of a wizard, psion and others is to compensate for your lack of physical prowess by using magic/psionics. Well an uncarnate who doesn't even HAVE a body, but who knows every power known to man is precisely that. I'll let you know how it goes. So far she's bought Astral Construct and Empathic Transfer. We'll see what she gets next. :) Edit: Probably Metamorphosis. :D
JulesCARV 03-04-07, 05:49 PM	Hmm... I'm wrong about an erudite being able to learn 9th-level discipline-only powers by using Reality Revision to create a power stone with them. As with expanded knowledge, learning power stone powers requires that the power level be lower than the maximum power level that the erudite can manifest. Ah well. A callous thrallherd could just replace his thralls (get a shaper, learn from her, then an egoist, learn from him, then get a kineticist, etc).
JulesCARV 03-04-07, 11:26 PM	I suppose if your only objective is to "milk" a psion thrall for powers, the erudite bit is unnecessary. Psychicly reforming her to change her powers and expanded knowledge feats is fairly cheap in experience compared to what erudites pay to actually add powers to their repertoire. For an 18th level erudite, commiting a single new power to repertoire costs 360 xp (not to mention 8 hours). Just psychicly reforming a psion's 18th level, by contrast, costs 50 xp and can change two powers and a feat usable for expanded knowledge.
awaken_D_M_golem 03-05-07, 08:12 PM	err ... psychicly reforming , or is it psychic-reformingly ... either/or , that idea is awesome , de facto eliminating the XP cost . And , the way experience works , just don't psy-ref as much during 19th level so you get to 20th on time. I've no idea why 20th level is so important , but anyway . So , all powers known up to 8th level , and as many 9th level powers as you can "PsyChi" ?! All those Erudite6 / something5 / something'else5 / something'else'else4 are now unnecessary . And anyway , why psy-ref ? Just PHB2 retrain all the way up .
JulesCARV 03-05-07, 11:19 PM	I don't really attach any special significance to level 20, although being level 18 or 19 is rather important, since a thrallherd must lose one or two effective psion levels, and this whole affair requires psychic chirurgery, which requires 17 effective psion levels. In spite of the lack of experience costs, I personally don't think PHB II retraining is really preferable to good ol' psychic reformation. It just assumes that your characters won't have anything better to do than go on obscure quests to retrain themselves. PHB II retraining: Me: I want to go on a quest to the Necrotic Cradle to change my thrall's powers so that she can implant my powers in me with psychic chirurgery. DM: Does this game have to revolve around your character gaining power? Can't it involve stopping the Cults of the Dragon Below from using an eldritch machine to destroy the Gatekeeper Seals and that sort of thing? This is the fourth time your wanted to retrain your thrall, and each time the damned necrotic cradle quest takes us a whole session. Psychic Reformation: DM: Ms. Cleric, what do you do in your down time? Ms. Cleric: Okay, I continue to write my theological text on why the Sovereign Host and the Silver Flame are not incompatible religious traditions, and one can be a devout worshipper of both and completely loyal to both traditions. DM: Fair enough. You get another ten pages written. Okay, JulesCARV, what do you do in your down time? Me: Well, I psychicly reform my thrall's current level, and I have him take expanded knowledge (restore extremity) as his feat, and have him take greater psionic teleport and genesis as his powers. If we have time, I'd like him to implant them in me with psychic chirurgery. DM: Okay. You and your thrall spend 40 minutes changing his powers known and implanting new powers in you. You each lose 1,525 experience, you lose 7 power points, and your thrall loses 51 power points. At the end, he looks at you with an exhausted smile and says, "just remember that you owe me for this, boss." Me: I tell him "I know. I've always been fair about it before, haven't I?" DM: Okay, Mr. Rogue, what are you doing in your down time? Mr. Rogue: Okay, I'm going shopping. I'm going to see if I can find someone who has a Ring of Spell Turning. If I can't find one, I'll make a gather information check to see if I can find information on a good artificer who can create one. I'd also like to get a Lyre of Building, if I can. DM: Okay, what's your gather information check? etc. The psychic reformation/psychic chirurgery bit only takes a minute to do in game, and 10 minutes per manifestation of psy ref or psy chi of in-game time. The PHB II retraining thingies require quests.
AntiDjinn 03-07-07, 04:14 AM	As a thrallherd you don't get to pick your thralls -- you send out the call and whoever answers, answers. It is up to the DM whether or not you get a manifester. Sure, you can ask your fanatical followers to begin adding levels in a manifesting class thereafter, but will you get them up to ML 17 to teach them Psychic Chiurgery? In all cases, if the source of a PC power and the XP spent is not yourself or another PC, this amounts to: If the DM is willing to give it to you.
carnivore 03-07-07, 12:36 PM	so it is far easier to find a 17th lvl Manifester with Psychic Chirgury and Pay them for thier services......DM willing that is :D
JulesCARV 03-07-07, 01:27 PM	I think you can pick your thralls' race, class, and alignment, based on the leadership feat, although I'm not really sure, since there are differences between thrallherd and leadership. Inability to pick the class of one's thralls isn't mentioned as a difference, but it could exist. The XP expenditure on the thralls' part is a sticky issue. In my original post, I tried to come up with ways that you could compensate thralls to their satisfaction for such draining work. I mentioned monetary compensation at the widely-accepted 5 gp/1 xp rate. Other ways might be trading powers: "I'll give you Hostile Empathic Transfer if you give me Metamorphosis." Still, nothing's gauranteed. Thralls should generally be predisposed toward reasonable obedience, so coming up with a compromise shouldn't be too hard, but it is a stumbling block.
Racinante 03-07-07, 01:55 PM	As a thrallherd you don't get to pick your thralls -- you send out the call and whoever answers, answers. It is up to the DM whether or not you get a manifester. Sure, you can ask your fanatical followers to begin adding levels in a manifesting class thereafter, but will you get them up to ML 17 to teach them Psychic Chiurgery? In all cases, if the source of a PC power and the XP spent is not yourself or another PC, this amounts to: If the DM is willing to give it to you. Actually, as has been pointed out by others... Thrallherd (Ex): Essentially, the character gains something akin to the Leadership feat, but with some important differences. A thrallherd's first thrall and believers arrive within 24 hours of her entry into this class; likewise, lost thralls and believers are replaced within 24 hours. Leadership: A character can try to attract a cohort (thrall in this case) of a particular race, class, and alignment. You can try to attract a thrall who is a manifester, however no rules are given as to your chance of success or how long it would take (assuming you could dismiss or kill your thrall if he doesn't measure up). So DM fiat still reigns. Also Followers (Believers) don't earn experience and thus don't gain levels. so that options would be out as well. Regardless of the level of thrall you do get, you could require the thrall to advance in a manifesting class, however. Let's suppose that you enter Thrallherd at 6th level, with an average charisma (10-11). Your leadership score is 6+1 = 7 giving you a thrall of level 5. Your thrall gains experience at Thrall Level / Character Level * Your experience gain. If you acquire a 5th level thrall with minimal experience at 6th character level, then every time you go up a level, the thrall will as well (odd how that works out). If he takes his 6th character level as a Psion, this allows him to acquire 7th level powers at the same time you acquire 9th level powers (when you are 19th level). When you hit 23rd level, the thrall can obtain Psychic Chiurgery and the shenanigans can commence...
bartleby42 03-07-07, 02:17 PM	What you've forgotten is the last step of the gravy train, all of this is assuming a pretty regular stream of XP, so after you learn every power in the book you use Mind Seed on one of your first level belivers. And then *poof* there is a second you, a bunch more belivers and a new thrall, and the circle contiues. After about a week to a month in game of Mind seeding low level belivers, not only do you have an even bigger army, but you have multiple, erm, "yous", who once they make up the negative levels will contiue the cycle. The only drawback is your clones don't know every power so each of them have to abuse thier thrall. Poor erudites, always being used as fodder for builds.... In a year I don't think there is a campain setting you couldn't take over.
JulesCARV 03-07-07, 04:03 PM	Well, the objective here isn't really to take over the world. It's just to have a versatile high-level psion who knows a lot of powers without needing to invest too many feats in expanded knowledge or be an erudite with the attendent unique-powers-per-day limits. Also, I'm not sure spending 3,000 xp on getting a version of myself at 8 levels lower is really all that worthwhile compared to spending 3,000 xp on learning three new powers. Although if the objective were to take over the world, this might be a useful tip.
AntiDjinn 03-08-07, 12:21 AM	Racinante, you also don't get to pick stats for your thralls, so having the Int up to 19 to be able to manifest 9th level powers is also only via DM gimme. If your thrall arrives with an Int of 6 you are going to be hard-pressed to get that up to 19 by pre-epic levels. After all, was there an Einstein or Hawking in the entire Manson family?
JulesCARV 03-08-07, 03:14 AM	Heh. What if your DM decided that your thralls were invariably kobold commoners who started with all natural 3s in all stats, including 1s in strength and constitution after racial adjustments? That would be kinda funny, actually. Well, at least you get cool augments to psionic charm and dominate ;). (note: I mean for a light-hearted, comical game. I'm not suggesting that DMs do this in most games)
Racinante 03-08-07, 10:04 AM	Racinante, you also don't get to pick stats for your thralls, so having the Int up to 19 to be able to manifest 9th level powers is also only via DM gimme. If your thrall arrives with an Int of 6 you are going to be hard-pressed to get that up to 19 by pre-epic levels. After all, was there an Einstein or Hawking in the entire Manson family? Your DM should provide a thrall that is no worse than a 5th level commoner with standard stats of 10 or 11 across the board. If not, then you may need to find another DM. Now suppose your thrall starts with a 10 intelligence. Time to invest in a headband, say +2 for costing sake. At level 8 (Psion 3) he gets a +1 intelligence stat boost which allows access to 3rd level powers. So he is good to level 11. At level 12 he again boosts his intelligence by +1. This takes the thrall to level 8 Psion (13th level). At level 14, you should have the resources to upgrade the headband to +4, or create/buy a +4 headband. This covers the next 6 levels of advancement due to an intelligence boost of +1 at NPC level 16 and gives access to 7th level powers. At 20th level for the NPC, he agains boosts his intelligence giving access to 8th level powers at Psion level 15. At NPC level 21, the thrall picks up Great Intelligence as his first Epic level feat and now has an intellignece of 19, sufficient for 9th level powers. The only investment you make is the +4 headband of intellect.
DracoPhoenix 03-08-07, 11:04 AM	I'm at work and my usual d20 ref site doesn't seem to be responding, but: Doesn't psi-reformation "de-level" you, so you can (potentially) retake any and all options for that level? If so, just aim to get an intelligent Thrall, reform out all his class levels and persuade him to take all levels in psion(x). Sweeten the deal with, if he goes through with it, dumping all known powers into you, you'll drop him back to L1 and let him pick his own class progression after that (you'll pay the xp that time, DM permitting). If he picks a manifesting class, offer to pay for the churgery for any powers you have that he'd like. Rinse & repeat for all manifesting classes to get those powers. (For evil PCs, I suggest mind seed at the end of all that instead of rewarding him for his hard work) Worse case scenario, you take the leadership feat, perform a very similar operation, all take levels in uncarnate (and take practised manifester) and then perform a meta concert. If you have the ability to xp grind (ie. you're in no rush to hit L20 and you consider losing xp an acceptable payment method for power), then the only real cost is time (to recover xp).
JulesCARV 03-08-07, 11:16 AM	Psychic Reformation only applies to skill points, feats, and powers selected, as far as I can tell.
JulesCARV 03-08-07, 11:23 AM	Your DM should provide a thrall that is no worse than a 5th level commoner with standard stats of 10 or 11 across the board. If not, then you may need to find another DM. Well, if you're going by the "DMs pick thralls; thrallherds don't have any influence on who they get" view, then I think that a reasonable DM might give you a half-orc barbarian with the elite array and only 6 intelligence. Stats before racials: Str: 15 Dexterity: 13 Constitution: 14 Intelligence: 8 Wisdom: 12 Charisma: 10 Stats after: Str: 17 Dexterity: 13 Constitution: 14 Intelligence: 6 Wisdom: 12 Charisma: 8 That's at level 1. Increases probably go to strength. That's a reasonable character (although most might prefer to switch charisma and intelligence). Just not much of a psion. Although it isn't as funny as the kobold commoners with all natural 3s.
Racinante 03-08-07, 11:37 AM	Well, if you're going by the "DMs pick thralls; thrallherds don't have any influence on who they get" view, then I think that a reasonable DM might give you a half-orc barbarian with the elite array and only 6 intelligence. In that case, you may want to go Wilder and a cloak of charisma +4/+6 instead of +2/+4, which will delay the 9th level powers by one level.
awaken_D_M_golem 03-08-07, 04:44 PM	Well, the objective here isn't really to take over the world ... Although if the objective were to take over the world, this might be a useful tip. I am soo disappointed ... :plotting: I don't see how planning with PHB2 retraining , is somehow not superior , to the XP burn , and gp costs to a non -fester. Key word is 'planning'. I fully recognize Experience is a River - something in T_G's sig. otoh An Artificer - sub species psionic - can get nifty mileage out of psy-ref I went looking for other uses of psy-ref and got 'spanked' by Tempest , no less. in any case Shun The Dark Chaos is almost infinitely more powerful than psy-ref. Oh by the way ... the powerstones thing is awesome. Draco Phoenix has uncovered another use of stupid Thralls - evul laugh.
bartleby42 03-08-07, 08:30 PM	Well, if you're going by the "DMs pick thralls; thrallherds don't have any influence on who they get" view, then I think that a reasonable DM might give you a half-orc barbarian with the elite array and only 6 intelligence. Easy solution to the problem of dumb thralls, play an evil charecter. This also gives you and your (eventually) sutable thrall an endless stream of XP. A thrallherd’s first thrall and believers arrive within 24 hours of her entry into this class; likewise, lost thralls and believers are replaced within 24 hours. So if you don't like your thrall, kill it and wait a day. Hope that your DM digs in his/her heels and keeps sending the same old thrall, so you can rack up the XP for your soon to be fueled power acceptance (and your eventual army of mind-seeded clones if you are so inclined). Once you get a thrall the piques your fancy the cream of the crop of your belivers becomes XP with boots for him, and viola! You win. Oh, and for the world domination, as your killing "unworthy" thralls, send out your entire hoard of belivers to take over small villiages or lay siege to a castle, who cares if they die, someone/thing will be back tomorrow. Ah, the joys of being callous.
guesswhat12321 03-09-07, 02:57 AM	How about this, get three levels of illithid Savant and take the Manifesting part from him, you gain PP and can learn all powers though a powerstone or other Psion. Bonus points for you if you convence your DM to Take Knowledge Psionics instead of Arcana for the requirments.
awaken_D_M_golem 03-10-07, 02:39 PM	I got an inkling about Psychic Chirurgery , and went looking for a thread that "jam eswilli amogle" posted. Well ... that's the dialect of common version of his name. Luckily , I remembered correctly , prolly cause of the butchered spelling :rolleyes: So , check this out ---> archive link (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-495016) throw in a little psionic-ThoughtBottle { see thought bottle , but with appropriate nerf } yummy.