Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GuardianLurker 04-06-08, 10:30 PM	I have a small problem, and need some advice. One of my players is a Marksman, which is a class that generally rocks. Last night we discovered it may rock a little too much (for our games at least). Here's the power for reference: Ephemeral Bolt Metacreativity (Creation) [Force] Level: Marksman 2, Psychic Warrior 2 Display: Ma Manifestation Time: 1 standard action Range: 0ft Effect: 1d4 ectoplasmic bolts, arrows, or sling bullets Duration: 1 minute/level Saving Throw: None Power Resistance: No Power Points: 3 You coalesce semi-stable ectoplasm into 1d4 arrows, crossbow bolts, or sling bullets appropriate to your size, and encase them in a thin layer of stable ectoplasm. Ammunition created this way is considered masterwork (+1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls, no direct bonus on damage rolls). Ephemeral ammunition has a delayed-delivery effect: After being fired, the bolt partially phases out of the material plane and onto the ethereal plane. This does not allow it to shoot through armor or walls (you still need clear line of effect to your target), but it does allow it to impact a target without the target noticing. A bolt that hits successfully hits a corporeal target embeds itself entirely in the target, but the effect is not terribly obvious -- the bolt does no damage, and there's no entry wound. At any point during the power's duration, as a swift action, you may order any or all of the bolts to return to the material plane, at which point they deliver their full normal damage (adjusted for damage reduction if appropriate) +1d4 points of force damage before dissipating back to their constituent ectoplasmic particles. No external wounds are present from this damage. This power is frequently used to deliver poison as well as its usual effects; such additions to the ammunition take effect when damage is dealt. As a side property of the phasing effect, ephemeral bolts can be used to attack ethereal creatures while you stand on the material plane, although they are treated as invisible unless you can see them through other means. Used this way, the bolts lose their delayeddelivery property and are treated as normal (although they retain the bonus force damage), and any obstruction on either plane stops them. However, you cannot use this power to attack the material plane while on the ethereal plane. If used to attack an incorporeal target (on either plane), the bolts do 1d4 points of force damage on impact. Augment: You may augment this power in one or both of the following ways: 1. For every 2 additional power points you spend, increase the force damage dealt by each bolt by one die (d4), and increase the enhancement bonus on attack rolls by 1. 2. If you spend 3 additional power points, the enhancement bonus on attack rolls applies to damage rolls as well. The problem is that with this in the game as written, it's essentially a "You're dead when I want you dead" power - the target is unaware of the attacks, the bolts leave no wounds, and you have a minimum of 70 rounds to stack as many arrows together as you wish. When they used it last night, that worked out to 132 hp of damage in a single round at 7th level. How does a PC or an NPC guard against this power? How could I nerf it to make it less you-are-arbitrarily-dead? Any ideas?
RadicalTaoist 04-07-08, 08:42 AM	Wow. You have 70 rounds to keep pinging a guard? That's going to be mighty slow infiltration, and 210/1d4 power points. Aside from that, the bolts should set off any detect psionics and similar effects. I don't know what countermeasures exist in your world against incorporeal invisible strikers, but that's usually what is assumed to be the case when guards drop dead from maigcally appearing crossbow bolts. 132 damage over 71 rounds of managing to hit the opponent seems fair. I can't speak for this power specifically, but I'm fairly sure Tempest kept in mind the tactical drawbacks to sniping someone forever.
Bacris 04-07-08, 08:46 AM	Also keep in mind they're still attack rolls. The target may be flat-footed, but high AC from Armor / Shield / Natural Armor still works. They're not auto-hit like Magic Missile. And damage reduction would reduce the damage per bolt, not per effect. So 10 bolts against DR 2/- has the damage reduced by 20 (assuming each bolt rolls at least 2 points of damage each). DR 2/- is available at 1st level for psychic warriors :)
Bacris 04-07-08, 11:50 AM	One other thing I wanted to point out: You only get 1d4 per manifestation, not per round. The duration is for how long the arrows / bolts / stones last, not for how long you can make the ammo.
Tempest Stormwind 04-07-08, 02:40 PM	As the author of that power (and indeed, the majority of the Marksman), I can attest that Bacris and RT didn't miss anything. (I'm glad you're enjoying the class, by the way!) The power's balanced at its relatively high cost. 1d4 bolts per 3 power points is rather... expensive, especially for the marksman's relatively low reserve. The effect is in line with the cost. How many power points did he spend to get that 132 damage? (Also, 132 damage ~ 140 damage / 70 rounds = 2 damage per round. You can do much better than that with Matter Agitation, especially since you don't need line of effect to maintain concentration.) The power was designed as a secret-bullet, working with certain marksman class features (especially those in the crossbow tiers, which are designed to maximize the impact of a single bolt -- take the time to line up multiple shots with that and it gets very powerful, very fast, since the effect is delayed until you deliver it, giving you time to get the equivalent of four Greater Psionic Shots in one round, for instance, at the cost of needing to spend time lining up shots. The faster attacks of the bowyer marksman are individually weaker (meaning it doesn't synergize with the bolts' ability to be delivered in relative safety, taking the time to place each of them accurately), and the sling-using thrown-weapon marksman will have a problem delivering these attacks undetected). However, RT's correct: The bolts themselves, being embedded in a target, are harder to detect than normal magical effects. (I'd argue that Detect Psionics would register them in the same way they'd register a person's attended objects in their backpack, provided you're capable of detecting into the Ethereal Plane.) Basically, the idea is to spread the pain around and use it tactically, i.e. as a method of intimidation -- it's a very effective killing tool, but too expensive to kill many targets. Sow confusion in the enemy -- kill one of them with a snap of your fingers and say "Care to guess who else I hit?" or similar * . Fire multiple shots at your assassination target, move to the market so you have an alibi, then trigger all the bolts. Layer on poison to "stack up" initial poison damage -- four bolts of the right poison, all at once, is a lot of damage even before secondary damage kicks in. Snipe the low-level watchmen at the castle gate (and the guy in the tower capable of raising the alarm) as you move through the shadows, then trigger their deaths all at once to get your party through the gate undetected. These sorts of things are what you'd expect an assassin-style marksman to be capable of doing. The chief drawback, other than the cost, is that it assumes you won't be noticed. In a firefight or typical dungeon crawl, this is impossible -- unless the marksman's alone and hidden (having invested other powers and power points into stealth effects), he'll have a hard time dishing them out from relative safety. And if the marksman's noticed, he lacks strong defenses -- only Defensive Precognition boosts his dismal AC, and his best defensive powers are all gambles (based around miss chances and mobility). The NPC guards against it in the same way they'd guard against normal magical arrows -- good perception, high AC, Protection from Arrows, Entropic Warding, and similar. The bolts aren't completely phased -- they're blocked by armor all the same. (This was actually a much-debated balancing point during UtP's development.) If the marksman's capable of delivering them undetected, good -- he's doing his job in much the same way an invisible rogue is doing his job with a knife. Think of it as an expensive Sneak Attack and put it in perspective. If you don't mind me asking, how was the marksman defending himself while sniping? I'm assuming he was alone, using a combination of skills and powers to remain hidden, and was a very long distance away. (You'll note the marksman doesn't get all that many powers, and actually has several options to pull off shots from safety (Trick Shot from lower levels, Ephemeral Bolt at mid level, and so on), but for each of those he takes, he loses a defensive/mobility/stealth option which may come up more often. Recall that the marksman's a damn good ranged warrior even without his powers, so it depends whether you want to upgrade its ranged prowess or its other, weaker areas for a more rounded character.) * This can also be one hell of a good bluff. Ping four men-at-arms, walk in, present your case to the corrupt king, if he disagrees snap your fingers and two of the men-at-arms drop dead, and announce that if he doesn't concede, the next one to fall is the princess (who you didn't actually hit... but he doesn't know that). If the other two attack you, snap and they fall, for a more convincing bluff and an extremely memorable scene.
The_Mess 04-07-08, 08:59 PM	I would take this power just for the mere possibility of having that scene play out somewhere along the way.
GuardianLurker 04-07-08, 09:35 PM	Actually, the damage was over 17 rounds (not 70) and only 12 actually involved shooting a bow. I'll also freely admit that the Marksman nova'd to do this, and that the setup was entirely optimal from the shooter's position. The shooter was on a convenient rooftop, the target was unsuspecting and on an open street. And the target wasn't a guard. The marksman uses a Composite Longbow which normally deals 1d8+4, or 1d8+1d4+4 under Ephemeral Bolt, for an average of 11/bolt. (And yes, he manifested the power multiple times.) As for the attack rolls, in this case his bonus was higher than the target's AC. However, it isn't really that much of a limitation; you just time the attack for when the target is low-AC (like when he's sleeping), or take advantage of something like Fell Shot. As for DR, that helps iff the target has it, and even then it doesn't help much. Just pile on more bolts to compensate. For that matter, the PsyWar's DR is power-based, which means he has to have the defense up, and I don't think the power is hours/level. Nor does that really help the non-PWs, like the party's rogue. \The NPC guards against it in the same way they'd guard against normal magical arrows -- good perception, high AC, Protection from Arrows, Entropic Warding, and similar. And only one of those (AC) is a passive defense. The others are all active, and expensive (in one form or another). And Sneak Attack doesn't have a 110' range increment; it *requires* you to be "up-close-and-personal" within 30'. And TS, your assumptions about the Marksman's placement were correct. I have no doubts the player used the power as intended or well. He did both. Let me turn around the initial question - without the use of active defenses, how do my PCs keep from suddenly just "waking up dead" after they've ****** off someone capable of hiring another marksman? (Or an NPC ruler the same?) And how does it happen without becoming overly reliant on AC?
Bacris 04-07-08, 09:40 PM	Let me turn around the initial question - without the use of active defenses, how do my PCs keep from suddenly just "waking up dead" after they've ****** off someone capable of hiring another marksman? (Or an NPC ruler the same?) And how does it happen without becoming overly reliant on AC? Sleep in a room with 4 walls, a door, a ceiling, and a floor without holes to shoot through? I'm not trying to be facetious, but you do have to have line of effect to shoot the person :)
The_Mess 04-07-08, 10:23 PM	Of course, in the real world, instant-death-from-afar is just a risk you can't avoid. Only in D&D do we expect "fairness" to offer some kind of defense. : - )
GuardianLurker 04-08-08, 12:04 AM	Sleep in a room with 4 walls, a door, a ceiling, and a floor without holes to shoot through? I'm not trying to be facetious, but you do have to have line of effect to shoot the person :) And if you have to leave that lovely shell to some place with line-of-effect? Say you're travelling, or in your private garden, etc... Of course, in the real world, instant-death-from-afar is just a risk you can't avoid. Only in D&D do we expect "fairness" to offer some kind of defense. : - ) Fairness h***. I'm just looking for something other than arbitrary restraint to avoid killing my PCs. I don't like operating in the MAD envelope.
Tempest Stormwind 04-08-08, 12:26 AM	And if you have to leave that lovely shell to some place with line-of-effect? Say you're travelling, or in your private garden, etc... You're making exactly the same argument against people with regular longbows. Replace ephemeral bolt with any other ranged attacker with similar range. "How do I stop my characters from being shot at while they're on the road, or in their own private garden?". Note that I deliberately left the VISUAL description of the bolt ambiguous. While I intended it to be invisible (and it was, originally), I left the wording like that so people COULD make it visible if they need to. All the RAW says on it is that the bolt does no damage and doesn't make an entry wound -- it's still HEARD (even if the bolt's invisible), and if you want to make it visible, it can still be seen flying around. (This has other tactical options than the ones mentioned above, particularly if combined with Dancing Lights mimicking it. Make people think they've been shot.) Ephemeral Bolt's advantage is that it can be delayed, so that after you fire you can run to somewhere safe and trigger it. This applies whether or not you shoot visible bolts or not ("He was over in the parapet when the flash came, sire, and... and you're dropping dead.") As for the immense damage, two things: 1) nova, and 2) multiple shots over multiple rounds means multiple chances to miss. Your idea of "just pile on more bolts" amplifies the nova costs. Does that give you some ideas?
GuardianLurker 04-08-08, 01:14 AM	TS - my ultimate problem isn't the immense damage from stacking. It's this line: ...it does allow it to impact a target without the target noticing. This implies that the arrows/bolts are both invisible and painless (once they reach the target). In short, there's no way for the target to be aware they've been attacked/are the target of the power. And it's an absolute statement, so even that Epic-Level Ranger with maxed out Spot won't notice it. With no way to notice the attacks, there's no way for the target to raise reactive/active defenses. If you can be hit with the first shot, you can be hit with the Nth shot. This is NOT true of a normal arrow sniper attack. After the first arrow/round, the target will be taking active steps to defend themselves. The "without noticing" clause also strongly implies that the bolts are invisible in flight, since if the bolts were visible and fired from the front the target'd notice them hitting him. I think I'll make the bolt's impact noticeable with a Spot DC 20 by the target, and their flight with a Spot DC 30. That should be high enough that the mook guards just drop, but the BBEG and VIPs (w/ their bodyguards) should be able to respond to a threat without actually a guarantee.
Tempest Stormwind 04-08-08, 01:32 AM	TS - my ultimate problem isn't the immense damage from stacking. It's this line: This implies that the arrows/bolts are both invisible and painless (once they reach the target). In short, there's no way for the target to be aware they've been attacked/are the target of the power. And it's an absolute statement, so even that Epic-Level Ranger with maxed out Spot won't notice it. With no way to notice the attacks, there's no way for the target to raise reactive/active defenses. If you can be hit with the first shot, you can be hit with the Nth shot. This is NOT true of a normal arrow sniper attack. After the first arrow/round, the target will be taking active steps to defend themselves. The "without noticing" clause also strongly implies that the bolts are invisible in flight, since if the bolts were visible and fired from the front the target'd notice them hitting him. I think I'll make the bolt's impact noticeable with a Spot DC 20 by the target, and their flight with a Spot DC 30. That should be high enough that the mook guards just drop, but the BBEG and VIPs (w/ their bodyguards) should be able to respond to a threat without actually a guarantee. Ah. That was a fluff line designed to show that it was intended to be invisible (as I mentioned above); I can see why you'd find that problematic. If we had used the "italic fluff" format, that bit would probably have been description. For clarification, if you insist on reading that line verbatim, it isn't impossible to be used with noticable bolts. Note how it doesn't say the target doesn't notice them, only that it's possible to hit him without him noticing. That means it's painless (as if it weren't he'd always notice), but as for the other senses, some stealth is required. (If they're visible and noisy, just shoot him in the back when there's background noise, and he won't notice them, for instance.) I will admit, I didn't consider this to be a concern, because I expected the power to be used sparingly (figuring the cost was rather high); in fact I added the hitting-ethereal/incorporeal-targets bit in the hopes people would have more chances to use it. Novas with it didn't test too strong, but I'll admit I never considered sicc'ing an assassin on the PCs going all out with dozens of bolts. (Just as I never send nova-ing NPCs against players, unless they literally have a death wish.) A quick houserule I'd consider using, if I was forced to treat them as visible, is to say they're seen as a distortion (think cloaked ships in most sci-fi shows), which is governed by a Spot check (DC equal to the power's DC with a +10 size modifier for the bolt) to notice the bolts mid-flight. This is repeated for each shot, encouraging the marksman to spread his shots out (that is, it's riskier to take out a single target with massed shots under this rule. This should encourage its use with the intended type of marksman (crossbow users), as they can make a single shot really hurt.) If you beat the DC, you can tell shots were fired and from a general direction; if you beat the DC by 5 or more, you saw enough of the flight to trace it back to the shooter (not enough to pinpoint but enough to know where it came from; the shooter is advised to do this while sniping as per the Hide skill). Since there's a DC associated with it now, the DC scales as normal for augmenting (+1 per 2 extra power points spent on any augment). You can consider this unofficial errata straight from the author (for the record, I'm Brian Dupuis); it may be too minor a change to justify a whole errata release at DSP (Bacris?), and if it's too small, just run with it for now.
Lycanthromancer 04-08-08, 10:42 AM	How do psionic and metapsionic feats (and similar class abilities) work with this power? Does Greater/Psionic Shot cause damage immediately, or later on when the bolts manifest? Or at all? Do Maximize Power and Empower Power increase both the number of bolts and their force damage? I assume they don't do anything regarding actual bolt-damage (from firing from a crossbow or longbow, for instance), though a case might possibly be made for that (not that I would, of course). Can Return Shot be used against this? I'd say yes, but only if you can affect ethereal targets using your hands, gauntlets, etc. I assume Burrowing Power would be useless and wouldn't apply. Oh, and what about using the arrows as hand-held light melee weapons? It's a really cool power, but as noted above, it might have a few issues.
Tempest Stormwind 04-08-08, 11:33 AM	How do psionic and metapsionic feats (and similar class abilities) work with this power? Case-by-case: Does Greater/Psionic Shot cause damage immediately, or later on when the bolts manifest? Or at all? In general, the bolts have their normal effect when the bolts are triggered. Since Psionic Shot would increase its damage, and damage is delayed until triggering, the damage is delayed. Yes, this allows for stacking the bolts for immense damage, which is why the power costs as much as it does and only gives you a few bolts. It takes a very long TIME to set this up, and time is the most important resource of all. Do Maximize Power and Empower Power increase both the number of bolts and their force damage? I assume they don't do anything regarding actual bolt-damage (from firing from a crossbow or longbow, for instance), though a case might possibly be made for that (not that I would, of course). Just the number of bolts and the force damage. However, they're both d4s, so you need to augment the power a fair bit before Empower/Maximize become worth it. Can Return Shot be used against this? I'd say yes, but only if you can affect ethereal targets using your hands, gauntlets, etc. The bolts are only partially phased (note how they embed themselves in the target and don't ignore armor; that was my simplification of other partial-phase effects like Blink). Return Shot can be used, provided you're aware of the attack as usual. I assume Burrowing Power would be useless and wouldn't apply. As the power creates bolts in your hand instead of somewhere else, yes, Burrowing Power is worthless. Oh, and what about using the arrows as hand-held light melee weapons? As normal. Attack with them, if you hit they embed in the target without a wound, and can be triggered later. It's a really cool power, but as noted above, it might have a few issues. It had more during development. I'm generally pleased with how it came out. (It, and Trick Shot, really defined how the marksman's offense was seen. And both were actually scrawled for the first time on the back of a Subway receipt. EDIT: That same subway sheet also had scrawls on it that led to other distinctive powers, such as Dueling Ground, Boost, and Foxhole. However, those didn't spring into being fully-formed: the random ideas on that receipt didn't blossom until the others at DSP looked through them and gave some killer suggestions.)
GuardianLurker 04-08-08, 11:43 PM	I will admit, I didn't consider this to be a concern, because I expected the power to be used sparingly (figuring the cost was rather high); in fact I added the hitting-ethereal/incorporeal-targets bit in the hopes people would have more chances to use it. Interestingly enough, that was the *primary* reason the player took the power; abilities that can affect incorporeal beings are at a premium in the campaign. As for the DCs, I like those. It should work fine. Thanks a lot guys; you all have been a great help. Oh, and here's the exact wording of the errata I'll be using: When a bolt hits, the target makes a Spot check (equal to the power's DC to notice) the attack. Others make a Spot check (equal to the power's DC + 10) to notice a bolt in flight. If the Spot check succeeds, the observer knows the shot was fired, and the general direction. If the observer succeeds by at least 5, they see enough of a bolt's flight to determine the shot's square of origin. The Spot DC scales as normal (+1 DC for every 2 additional power points spent).
Tempest Stormwind 04-09-08, 12:14 AM	Interestingly enough, that was the *primary* reason the player took the power; abilities that can affect incorporeal beings are at a premium in the campaign. Originally the power was undecided between psychoportation and metacreativity. We couldn't decide between the two -- if it were psychoportative, it would basically Time Hop itself into the target's future, and if it were metacreative it would phase between planes like ectoplasm in flux. We decided on metacreative (based on feedback from the forums, actually) and I added the incorporeal/ethereal targeting as a side effect, since it would be something distinctive (no other primary-combat class can easily target incorporeals using his own powers). As for the DCs, I like those. It should work fine. Thanks a lot guys; you all have been a great help. Oh, and here's the exact wording of the errata I'll be using: For consistency, in the official version the last sentence should be moved to the augment, phrased as "Also, for every 2 additional power point spent (on either augment), increase the Spot DC by 1." I do like the differential between the target and the onlookers, but I think the DC will be too low for the target, when really, the target is the one the power's DESIGNED to hit. I don't have time to playtest this right now, so let me know if this proves too easy to spot or not; when it comes time to finalize the next round of errata I'll take that into account.
GuardianLurker 04-09-08, 10:04 PM	About the Target's being too low. I'm not all that worried about it. The damage still happens, it's just that now the target knows he's been attacked. Which means he can take defensive actions. To gain the rest of the benefits, the target would have to observe the bolt in flight. I'm tempted to add another +5 to the DCs, as they're awful low against Spot monkeys. OTOH, the Spot Monkeys are most likely PCs, so maybe it isn't a bad thing. I guess to make it clearer, the wording should be changed to: When a bolt hits, the target makes a Spot check (equal to the power's DC) to notice the attack. Others make a Spot check (equal to the power's DC + 10) to notice a bolt in flight. If the Spot check succeeds, the observer knows the shot was fired, and the general direction. If the observer succeeds by at least 5, they see enough of a bolt's flight to determine the shot's square of origin. The target only gains this additional information if he can observe the bolt in flight. Augment: Also, for every 2 additional power point spent (on either augment), increase the Spot DC by 1.
Tempest Stormwind 04-10-08, 01:09 AM	The reason why I had the +10 apply to everyone is that it's size-related. Note that the DC shouldn't be higher for the target for two reasons: First, the target doesn't feel a thing (so he's basically trying to see the same thing everyone else does) and second, the power's designed to take out targets without them being aware of it. Hence the +10 to the spot DC, especially since skill checks outstrip power DCs as levels advance and a marksman isn't a primary manifester. A level 8 marksman can be expected to have, after equipment, about an 18 Wisdom if he's heavily into his manifesting, meaning the spot DC is 26, which is high but not out of reach for parties with scouts (level 8 target, 11 Spot ranks, +2 Wis modifier = +13 = 40% chance of success, and that's a mediocre scout). A level 20 marksman is unlikely to have higher than a 22 Wisdom, and that's assuming he's a relatively heavy manifester and using a crossbow (meaning he can dump Strength). His DC would be 28 -- the same level 8 scout from above still has a 30% chance of spotting it, target or not. A level 20 version of the same guy barely needs to roll. Yes, he can augment to improve that, but note that this is per shot. A 30% chance of success over three bolts means 90% likely to be aware that he's been targeted. Plus, extra mechanics for mechanics' sake is bad design; unifying the DCs regardless of target simplifies it and streamlines play.
GuardianLurker 04-10-08, 01:54 AM	I was thinking of DCs equal to "normal + 5" for the target (feeling the impact), and "normal + 15" for the observers (to see the tiny phased bolts). Making the DCs for your sample Marksman 21 and 31. OTOH, your point about unified DCs is a good one. What I'm trying to avoid is the "how did the target Spot the bolts? I shot him from behind!" argument, which is what prompted the target/observer split. But there's nothing to say that the bolt isn't just as hard to feel as see (and the size modifier would still apply). I'm having to "paper train" an aggressive rules lawyer. I've had to verbally smack him a few times for arguing with my rulings at the table (and elsewhere too, come to think of it). He's not dumb, but we'll see.
Tempest Stormwind 04-10-08, 02:22 AM	I was thinking of DCs equal to "normal + 5" for the target (feeling the impact), and "normal + 15" for the observers (to see the tiny phased bolts). Making the DCs for your sample Marksman 21 and 31. OTOH, your point about unified DCs is a good one. What I'm trying to avoid is the "how did the target Spot the bolts? I shot him from behind!" argument, which is what prompted the target/observer split. But there's nothing to say that the bolt isn't just as hard to feel as see (and the size modifier would still apply). I'm having to "paper train" an aggressive rules lawyer. I've had to verbally smack him a few times for arguing with my rulings at the table (and elsewhere too, come to think of it). He's not dumb, but we'll see. Ah. The trick here is the same as we use on the CO boards: Remind him there's no facing in D&D, and you can make Spot checks against *anything* (distance, not direction, determines the penalty on that). If you attack him and he's denied his Dex bonus, and you hit, then describe it as hitting him in the back. Otherwise, no back-attack for you. Use what you want in your games; when this is finalized it's likely going to be DC+10 across all individuals. (Although it may extend to Spot or Listen. I'm already spoiled by Saga's unified Perception skill.)
GuardianLurker 04-10-08, 08:17 PM	Yah. It works better at +10 all the way around. As for the ARL, he's prone to argue even when he's *asked* for a houseruling. Like I said, paper training. Whether he can be saved remains to be seen. And again, thanks for the help guys.
mod5000 04-13-08, 06:46 PM	(Used as melee weapons:) As normal. Attack with them, if you hit they embed in the target without a wound, and can be triggered later. Wowy. Act like some sort of massage therapist or geisha or somesuch, when they're close stick them full of poisoned arrows (that are hopefully invisible/concealed), and later make them go boom. Edit: Could probably do this even more easily as a Psion with Expanded Knowledge for more PP to manifest with.
Tempest Stormwind 04-13-08, 08:04 PM	(Used as melee weapons:) Wowy. Act like some sort of massage therapist or geisha or somesuch, when they're close stick them full of poisoned arrows (that are hopefully invisible/concealed), and later make them go boom. Edit: Could probably do this even more easily as a Psion with Expanded Knowledge for more PP to manifest with. Putting this in perspective showed something else I admit I never considered: Coup-de-grace attacks with the bolts (say, under the guise of accupressure, ramming a bolt into the heart or something -- note that massage wouldn't work unless he never sees your hands, since the bolts *are* physical and visible until they're used to attack). Mechanically, it works (the damage, and thus the save, is delivered all at once, but since each bolt is part of a separate attack, he'd get a save for each bolt), but it's something I'm not sure I'm comfortable with. Depends on how many geisha marksman exist in the world.
The_Mess 04-13-08, 09:31 PM	Depends on how many geisha marksman exist in the world. Surely, one is enough!
mod5000 04-13-08, 10:01 PM	Putting this in perspective showed something else I admit I never considered: Coup-de-grace attacks with the bolts (say, under the guise of accupressure, ramming a bolt into the heart or something -- note that massage wouldn't work unless he never sees your hands, since the bolts *are* physical and visible until they're used to attack). Mechanically, it works (the damage, and thus the save, is delivered all at once, but since each bolt is part of a separate attack, he'd get a save for each bolt), but it's something I'm not sure I'm comfortable with. Depends on how many geisha marksman exist in the world. Ooh, what if you were an Ardent 5 (with Expanded Knowledge and Wisdom synergy for...) / Ninja X, created bolts/arrows, turned invisible, shot them at your target, and ran away? Later snap your fingers... and massive sneak attack damage added on to each piece of ammunition. :D Might be nice to add on things like Throw Anything and/or Master Thrower, and unload a full attack of Palm Throw or Weak Spot bolts at the target for tons of damage that can be activated whenever you want.
GuardianLurker 04-13-08, 11:14 PM	And that's why, when my scout archer asked if he could use the marksman's bolts, I said no. Oh, and it'd need to be Improved Invisibility, not normal - otherwise the attacks would break it. OTOH, Ninja's get Hide-in-Plain-Sight, which is actually better for this. For that matter it doesn't need to be a geisha marksman. How about an ardent/society mind/erudite/egoist (i.e. the healer types) with Expanded Knowledge? Something else to consider, TS, is that the delay component is *extremely* long. DBF is 5 rounds, and I'm pretty sure the Delay Spell metamagic feat is also rounds-long. Limiting it to 5 rounds would have cut my marksman's output to 55 hp (which in this case would have left the target alive).
mod5000 04-14-08, 12:16 AM	Oh, and it'd need to be Improved Invisibility, not normal - otherwise the attacks would break it. OTOH, Ninja's get Hide-in-Plain-Sight, which is actually better for this. Ninja invisibility actually works like Greater Invis, since it doesn't say "as the spell"--it simply says that the Ninja is invisible for a round (until the beginning of their next turn), something the FAQ clarified (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/Main35FAQv12212007.zip). Also, even with Hide in Plain Sight, you still need some form of Cover or Concealment--HiPS mostly makes it so you don't need to create a diversion to hide. To actually hide in plain sight, you need something like the Ranger's Camouflage ability.