Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Narthon 11-04-07, 06:18 PM	From the SRD: Independent Research A psion also can research a power independently, duplicating an existing power or creating an entirely new one. It doesn't say you can take powers not on your list. It doesn't say you have to stick to your list either. Why is it pretty much accepted that you can take powers from any list with research?
Tedronai 11-04-07, 06:34 PM	because you can ALREADY do that via Expanded Knowledge?
Narthon 11-04-07, 06:53 PM	But expanded knowledge is a feat, which is totally different than research. Expanded knowledge specifically states that it can be from a source you don't have access to.
InkBlot 11-04-07, 07:07 PM	It's because you can create an entirely new power. If you can research a 2nd level power which deals 1d6/pp of any type of energy damage to five targets within medium range and with a save for half damage, then there's no point in not allowing you to research energy missle.
Narthon 11-04-07, 07:09 PM	I find that answer acceptable. I would like to hear more on the topic though.
CrimsonDeath 11-04-07, 07:16 PM	Note that research is subject to DM approval. That should put a damper on the majority of abuse.
DracoPhoenix 11-05-07, 03:54 AM	I sometimes wonder why you would want to research a power. Remember, unlike a wizard, psionic research takes up a precious # powers known slot, (along with xp and time requirements). It's almost trading a feat for xp, except with the feat 1) you get an extra power and 2) it can be any power off the bat (ok, there's the -1 PL clause, but still). While feats are limited, many powers are also multi-purpose - so you need fewer to begin with. You don't need 4 energy ball spells, just one. Though why they didn't make the Telekinesis family a 3rd level augmentable I don't know... (possibly even a L1 with the mage hand equivalent) Though having tried a gestalt Psion // Ardent, even 1 extra power a level adds a lot to your abilities. (Never mind the double pp pool :))
Narthon 11-05-07, 07:08 AM	Well, I don't see anywhere that it takes up one of your powers known slots, and it isn't like Psions are lacking for powers known. The main reason I'd want to take it is for say, a telepath to use to get astral construct so he can at least have some effect against golums, undead, oozes, and the like. What powers would you suggest instead?
Bacris 11-05-07, 07:24 AM	Well, I don't see anywhere that it takes up one of your powers known slots, and it isn't like Psions are lacking for powers known. It also doesn't say, as Psychic Chirurgery and Expanded Knowledge do, that the power does not count against your powers known. Because the rules don't say something doesn't mean they work that way. A psion can know only a specific number of powers, period. Independent Research does not indicate those powers are above and beyond his normal limit. Ergo, they count against his limit.
DracoPhoenix 11-05-07, 08:01 AM	Well, I don't see anywhere that it takes up one of your powers known slots, and it isn't like Psions are lacking for powers known. The main reason I'd want to take it is for say, a telepath to use to get astral construct so he can at least have some effect against golums, undead, oozes, and the like. What powers would you suggest instead? As Bacris said. Also, I could easily be wrong, but wasn't that covered in a FAQ or errata? As for other powers: Energy missile - very versatile energy power. once you got it you can reform out energy ray and after that, it's only when you get to the horde stage or possible high reflex creatures that it becomes less effective. (for which there's cold (fortitude save instead) or energy barrage :)) Clairvoyant Sense - what's on the other side of that door? (+burrowing power + ?? (energy barrage :))) Teleport - even if it's only until Gtr TP Metamorphosis - why attack when you can just scare them. Why scare them when you can attack with 5 heads, large claws and a tail :smirk: The Ardent's heal equivalent. Empathic Transfer hostile (great with metamorphosis) - why this isn't an egoist power I will never know. Psionic Revivify - If the cleric goes down, who's gonna raise you? Also, cheaper & faster Telekenetic sphere - bowling anyone (Mystery Men)? (Or you know, flying, playing Gandalf on a bridge etc) Minor creation - untraceable poison (disappears after a few hours), hang over free beerfest, marbles (box of, covering the floor) Ectoplasmic cocoon - 1 less combatant = easier clean up Astral Seed - emergency resurrection. (Also, use with mind switch or Gtr Metamorphosis) Charm, suggestion, Dominate. Again, why fight when you can get them to do the work for you? Claws of the Vampire (psy war) - with metamorphosis (+ Emp. Transfer Hostile )
CrimsonDeath 11-05-07, 11:23 AM	Just don't be surprised if you can't get discipline-specific powers or powers from another power list at the indicated power level. (For example, as printed, Body Adjustment is PsyWar 2 but Psion 3, so the DM can rule that the power level increases when it's researched onto another power list.)
Racinante 11-05-07, 01:45 PM	I sometimes wonder why you would want to research a power. 9th level cross-discipline powers for one.
Bacris 11-05-07, 02:29 PM	Don't forget new augments for existing powers - or flat out new powers. :)
Narthon 11-05-07, 06:53 PM	It also doesn't say, as Psychic Chirurgery and Expanded Knowledge do, that the power does not count against your powers known. Because the rules don't say something doesn't mean they work that way. A psion can know only a specific number of powers, period. Independent Research does not indicate those powers are above and beyond his normal limit. Ergo, they count against his limit. So... when do you get these powers? When you level up, according to the sage, you have to make all decisions about leveling up, which would include picking new powers and filling slots. Te research rules say you learn the new power as soon as research is complete. Therefore, you must be able to gain researched powers on top of regular powers attained for leveling up.
Narthon 11-05-07, 06:59 PM	I sometimes wonder why you would want to research a power. Why wouldn't you research powers rather than using a feat? There is no limit to the amount of experience you can gain, and being lower level than the rest of the party is partially self-correcting. Even a Human Psion only gets 13 total feats, and there are many more that 13 useful feats without spending any on expanded knowledge.
CrimsonDeath 11-05-07, 07:15 PM	So... when do you get these powers? When you level up, according to the sage, you have to make all decisions about leveling up, which would include picking new powers and filling slots. And when, exactly, do you level up? How long does it take?
Narthon 11-05-07, 07:49 PM	And when, exactly, do you level up? How long does it take? I don't know, but the independent research rules certainly don't say you can only do it during "level up time".
Bacris 11-05-07, 07:53 PM	I usually go with 1 of 2 options: You have to "save" a powers known slot for a researched power - but it can't be higher level than that slot would have been when you get it OR You research the power in advance, but can't actually manifest it until you have a spare slot Either one works fine from my experience.
Narthon 11-05-07, 08:03 PM	That may work, but both contradict RAW. By RAW, you have to pick powers when you gain them, by RAW, you get access to researched powers as soon as you make the psicraft check.
CrimsonDeath 11-05-07, 08:19 PM	That may work, but both contradict RAW. By RAW, you have to pick powers when you gain them, by RAW, you get access to researched powers as soon as you make the psicraft check. In that case, you've implicitly proven that the only time a Psion can engage in independent research is while he's in the process of gaining a level, whether it's explicitly stated or not.
Narthon 11-05-07, 08:27 PM	Which means in just about any game I've ever played in, you can't do psionic research, as there is no actual time between beginning and ending level up, and research takes time.
CrimsonDeath 11-05-07, 09:04 PM	Levelling up is an abstraction. It's a discrete, atomic increase in a character's capabilities, but it represents the gradual refinement of those abilities over time. I believe the DMG2 presents some ideas for roleplaying the level-up process, some of which assume that the transition from one level to the next takes place over some period of downtime. Power research could occur during that time. Since the level-up process isn't (to my knowledge) spelled out precisely anywhere else, it would've been a plausible way of handling the research process even before the DMG2 was published. Otherwise, the RAW breaks down somewhere. Which is, unfortunately, characteristic of the editing of the XPH, which is rife with copy/paste and find/replace errors.
Bacris 11-05-07, 09:11 PM	Otherwise, the RAW breaks down somewhere. Which is, unfortunately, characteristic of the editing of the XPH, which is rife with copy/paste and find/replace errors. I don't know that I'd say it's rife with it - for its size, it has remarkably few gaps... but yes, there are some that should have gone back into the oven for another 15 minutes ;)
AntiDjinn 11-06-07, 02:34 AM	That may work, but both contradict RAW. By RAW, you have to pick powers when you gain them, by RAW, you get access to researched powers as soon as you make the psicraft check. No, researching a new power simply brings it into existence, it does not mean you know it. A wizard could research a new spell then sell it without adding it to his book; he would not have access to the spell (can't study it to memorize it on any given day) but it still exists. If a nomad wants Redopsi but doesn't want to spend a feat, and wants the resultant power to be on the nomad discipline list rather than the general list, he could research a power that duplicates Redopsi but is a psychoportive power (it warps space rather than redirects energy to return the effect to its point of origin) and is Nomad 6 instead of Kineticist 6. Once he has done the research, the power exists; it has been added to his class list (and discipline list) but not yet to his powers known list (the book is full of powers that are on a psion's class list but which a given character does not know). He knows the basics of how the power works and could even discuss the concepts with other psions. He can actually manifest the power as soon as he selects it as a power known, or uses Psychic Reformation to switch out one of his existing powers. Until he actually takes such a step, the power sits on his class list, which is simply the list of powers available for him to take.
AntiDjinn 11-06-07, 02:47 AM	Note that research is subject to DM approval. That should put a damper on the majority of abuse. If your DM has decided to flat-out nerf your research because what you are attempting is broken (i.e., he has decided that success is simply not possible regardless of your roll) he is supposed to tell you "No Way" at the onset rather than let you spend XP and game time only to laugh has he denies you the results. Unless your DM is a jerk, he will provide or withhold his approval before your character even start the process. But yes, since you are introducing a new power to the game, DM's fiat trumps all in the research process.
CrimsonDeath 11-06-07, 03:54 AM	If your DM has decided to flat-out nerf your research because what you are attempting is broken (i.e., he has decided that success is simply not possible regardless of your roll) he is supposed to tell you "No Way" at the onset rather than let you spend XP and game time only to laugh has he denies you the results. Naturally. I'd consider allowing you to spend XP on something he considers impossible would be a form of "abuse". It just happens to be abuse of a person rather than abuse of rules...
InkBlot 11-06-07, 08:29 AM	... he is supposed to tell you "No Way" at the onset rather than let you spend XP and game time only to laugh has he denies you the results. Unless your DM is a jerk, he will provide or withhold his approval before your character even start the process. Unfortunately, the DMG (and the copy/paste find/replace section in the XPH) tell the DM to do exactly what will make him a jerk. So a lot of DMs, especially those just starting out and not confident enough to question the books, will inadvertently jerk their players. Sad, wrong, but inevitable. This has been a non-adversarial post brought to you by Phantom Inker brand Phantom Ink, disappearing from a store near you!