Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hida Reju 03-06-07, 08:48 AM	I am running a game that has a Psi warrior in it and he has been hunting for possible prestige class options. Ok I love the concept of the Warmind but the progression of not adding manifester levels makes it unattractive to my player. He does not see a point to taking a Psi warrior into a class that does not increase power points or manifester lvl for psi warrior powers. I know there are a few other options for psi warrior like Psionic Weapon Master but if you were going to allow a change to the Warmind then what would you do. I see it as a 7 lvl Manifester class if modified or maybe 5 lvls, please let me know what you all think and throw some pros or cons at me.
Khael 03-06-07, 09:11 AM	Con, It grants already useful bonuses to itself to begin with, and allows use of Psionics. Switching its own Psis to add manifesting levels instead, means you gain several advantages with little loss, or lack of specialisation (It's now a stronger warrior than a straight Psy-warrior, and you want to give it power only slightly behind?.) In other words, usually for a PrC you have to give a bit to get something is the theory. What would the psy warrior lose here, with added manifestor levels? maybe 6th level powers, but still able to fight like a psy warrior, only this one can boost its strength/con, increase its AC (and those are insight bonuses not enhancements) and fight down mass opponent or big single opponents better. At a guess I'd be happier giving 5 levels manifesting than seven for the above, if you go though with it. But personally, I go for the idea the warmind is more of a non-psionic character getting into Psionics PrC, by which a fighter/paladin/other combat class or gish can pick up wild talent or similar and go with it, not a PrC for psionic characters to use.
SlanderPanic 03-06-07, 09:32 AM	I wouldn't change War Mind. It's perfect as-is. If the player doesn't want to give up some of his augmenting ability, he can always take Practiced Manifester tied to his psychic warrior levels. By the way, soulknife/War Mind is a really lethal combo. Sweeping Strike + Bladewind = pain.
runestar 03-06-07, 09:40 AM	Doesn't bladewind disable sweeping strike?:confused:
SlanderPanic 03-06-07, 09:52 AM	Bladewind (Su) At 9th level, a soulknife gains the ability to momentarily fragment his mind blade into numerous identical blades, each of which strikes at a nearby opponent. As a full attack, when wielding his mind blade, a soulknife can give up his regular attacks and instead fragment his mind blade to make one melee attack at his full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. Each fragment functions identically to the soulknife’s regular mind blade. When using bladewind, a soulknife forfeits any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats or abilities (such as the Cleave feat or the haste spell). The mind blade immediately reverts to its previous form after the bladewind attack. Sweeping Strike (Ex) At 5th level, a war mind gains the ability to make great, sweeping swings with a melee weapon. On each melee attack a war mind makes, he can choose squares he threatens that are adjacent to each other, and his attacks apply to creatures in those two squares equally. A war mind can use this ability on any attack, even an attack of opportunity or a cleave attempt. A war mind cannot use this ability if he has moved more than 10 feet since the end of his last turn. If a war mind drops one or both of his foes with a sweeping strike, he can attempt a cleave normally; however, he makes only one cleave attempt per sweeping strike, even if he drops more than one foe. I don't see anything there that says they can't work together. At any rate, you'd have to be at least 14th level to access the combo, so it really doesn't seem overpowered to me.
Khael 03-06-07, 10:01 AM	Seems to work, the sweeping strike isn't a special attack, and isn't an extra attack or bonus, since it just applies one attack to two squares. And the sweeping strike says 'any attack'. I'd see it working, and really at that level a combat class probably could use that to have a real usage... micro whirlwind of combat death for example
Tempest Stormwind 03-06-07, 10:31 AM	First, it does increase his power points. Power points are pooled. You're right that it limits his power options, though. Seriously, warmind is VERY good, it's just not designed for psionic manifesters to use. It's like the pyro and the Fist of Zuoken; built for nonmanifesters to dabble in psionics. It can still be hella effective (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11564698&postcount=154), though.
SlanderPanic 03-06-07, 10:52 AM	That build is insanely awesome. Jeebus.
Hida Reju 03-06-07, 01:42 PM	Ok then what good Psy Warrior classes are there then? I have no problem playing the class to 20 but I am not the one playing it so I need some ideas to throw at him.
Tempest Stormwind 03-06-07, 01:47 PM	There are several good ones in The Mind's Eye. Psychic Weapon Master comes to mind, as does Slayer (XPH) and Sanctified Mind (Lords of Madness). I'm pretty sure Iron Mind (Races of Stone) would work as well, especially if he likes defense. Or, of course, Psychic Warrior. It's a solid class design.
Scion of Coldshard 03-06-07, 02:14 PM	There are a couple in my sig as well, but they are rather off the wall and unlikely to be accepted by most dm's ;) I would have liked many of the classes to have multiple options for progression personally. Take the warmind for example. Path 1 would be just like it is now (or close), path 2 would be if you were going to advance psychic warrior progression and path 3 would be if you were going to advance with any of the other manifesting classes (with a possible side note about converting to arcane/divine). Done properly the power level would be about the same overall for two different builds using the class in different ways but the sheer number of extra options opened up for a little extra space would be staggering. Ahh.. I can dream.. :cool: Is your dm ok with shifting the warmind to progressing the psychic warrior? If so we can crunch some numbers to see what looks to be about best for a progression.
SlanderPanic 03-06-07, 02:23 PM	War Mind also works really nicely with psychic warrior. You give up MLs, four bonus feats, and four powers, but look what you get: *More power points. *Full BAB. *Two good saves! *d10 hit points. *A plethora of cool special abilities. A psychic warrior 5/War Mind 10 could potentially pump 24d6 of damage into a single hit against two enemies. If he's wielding a deep crystal greatsword and has manifested expansion and an augmented (5pp) dissolving weapon, the damage could work out like this: 3d6 (base) +5d6 acid (dissolving weapon) +4d6 (Psionic Weapon) +2d6 (deep crystal) +10d6 (chain of overwhelming force) None too shabby, if you ask me, and that's all just off the top of my head. And yeah, Illithid Slayer's a very nice prestige for a psychic warrior, too. I've been meaning to try it out with a ray specialist psion or ardent, but haven't had the chance yet. (Full BAB, favored enemy, and 9/10 manifesting? Yesplease.) Pyrokineticist and Elocater both have a lot to offer a psychic warrior, depending on what you're going for. If you dip into divine mind, Storm Disciple (Complete Psionic) may interest you. If you're into ranged combat, you can check out the Mystic Musketeer in my sig or Untapped Potential's marksman base class. What's this particular character's concept?
Hida Reju 03-06-07, 05:34 PM	Well since I am running the game I have a few options 1. Make a new class all together. (Difficult but not impossible to balance) 2. Mod the Warmind to use a 5 or 7 ML progression. 3. Tell him to suck it up and choose it or something else as is. As for the damage thing its not an issue, Psi weapon/chains of overwheaming force will not come up that often considering one of them is once a day. The other things mentioned all cost power points and he is going to be strapped for them if he starts spending on things so it all balances out there. He is working on being a greatsword heavy hitter so I may just recommend he go Psionic weapon master instead but if anyone wants to take a shot at the break down of a 5 ML and a 7 ML progression for Psi Warrior go ahead. My big gripe is that there are a lot of prestige classes for psions/wilders but so very few that feel right for the Psi Warrior. But I will live with it since I happen to like Psi in my games.
Scion of Coldshard 03-06-07, 07:35 PM	Well, what does each get right now? I will look at level 15 for ease although looking at it alone is certainly not sufficient. (as an aside I feel the need to say that I am one of those who feels that the psychic warriors base pp pool needs a little buffing) Psychic warrior 15 HD: 15d8 (avg 71) Skills: (2+mod)*18 psychic warrior skill list BAB: +11 Saves: F +9, R +5, W +5 Class features: 6 fighter/psionic bonus feats Manifester level: 15 Base PP's: 67 Powers Known: 15 (max: 1st 3, 2nd 3, 3rd 3, 4th 3, 5th 3) Psychic warrior 5/Warmind 10 HD: 5d8+10d10 (avg 81) Skills: (2+mod)*8 psychic warrior skill list, must purchase 8 ranks in knowledge (psionics) and use 4 skill points cross classed into knowledge (history), (2+mod)*10 warmind skill list BAB: +13 Saves: F +11, R +8, W +4 Class featuers: 3 fighter/psionic bonus feats, chain of personal superiority +4, chain of defensive posture +4, Enduring body (DR 3/-), sweeping strike, chain of overwhelming force Manifester level: 5 (psychic warrior), 10 (warmind) Base PP's: 7+70=77 Powers Known: Psychic warrior 5 (max: 1st 3, 2nd 2), Warmind 6 (max: 1st 2, 2nd 1, 3rd 1, 4th 1, 5th 1) I left out bonus power points because I feel that they should be the same, no matter what the text actually says. Now I think both characters are fun, but the second characters powers are much weaker but has more nonpower toys. I say much weaker because there are less of them, mostly of lower level, and the manifester level is so low that overcoming SR/PR will be incredibly difficult plus they will mostly be easily dispelled and the durations will be somewhat low. Plus the second character never even gets 6th level powers! If we give the second guy 7/10 progression instead he works out like this powers wise as everything else stays the same: Manifester level: 12 Base PP's: 43 (less bonus than other two) Powers Known: 12 (max: 1st 3, 2nd 3, 3rd 3, 4th 3) So the psychic warrior gives up 3 bonus feats and 3 levels of manifestation for +10 avg hp, +2 BAB, +2 fort, +2 reflex, -1 will, chain of personal superiority +4, chain of defensive posture +4, Enduring body (DR 3/-), sweeping strike, chain of overwhelming force Likely this is actually fine. I would have a hard time making the trade personally, but I just love the power points. The three levels I would cut off from manfesting progression? 1, 5, and 10. First level because it is something of an entrance fee, 5th level because sweeping strike is incredible and it is a midway point, 10th level because there are 3 total missing and I hate chain of overwhelming force. Although you could also turn all of the specials that you get from the class into a 3 or 4 tier feat chain as well and ignore the whole situation. Warmind Discipline [psionic, warmind] Prereq: Knowledge (psionics) 4, Knowledge (history) 2 Benefit: chain of personal superiority +X, chain of defensive posture +X (X = # of [warmind] feats that you have Enduring Body [psionic, warmind] Prereq: Warmind Discipline, Knowledge (psionics) 5, Autohypnosis 4 Benefit: DR (X-1)/- Sweeping Strike [psionic, warmind] Prereq: Warmind Discipline, Knowledge (psionics) 11, Knowledge (history) 4 Benefit: Sweeping strike Warminds Edge [psionic, warmind] Prereq: Warmind Discipline, Autohypnosis 4 Benefit: Whenever you regain pp's you also focus on a chosen weapon. For the next 24 hours whenever you attack with that weapon you gain a +(X/2, rounded down) unnamed bonus to attack. You also gain a bonus to reflex saves whenever not flatfooted of +X. Hmm.. I actually really like those. I think I may have to add them to the players options in my own game.
Tempest Stormwind 03-06-07, 08:01 PM	If you dip into divine mind, Storm Disciple (Complete Psionic) may interest you. If you're into ranged combat, you can check out the Mystic Musketeer in my sig or Untapped Potential's marksman base class. Oh, if we're busting out third-party material, you'll also find the following: Hyperconscious: Astral Dragoon, Ghostbreaker, Plangent (sorta), Voce Warrior. Untapped Potential: Amalgamist, Enlightened Protector, Knight Meditant. All of those except the Plangent have full base attack and are relatively easy to qualify for as far as a psychic warrior is concerned. The Ghostbreaker in particular stands out in that crowd, but the amalgamist, enlightened protector, astral dragoon and voce warrior aren't to be trifled with either.
SlanderPanic 03-06-07, 10:50 PM	Don't see why we shouldn't break out the good third-party stuff in this thread, for two good reasons: 1) There isn't a huge swath of third-party psionics stuff out there. 2) Out of the stuff that is out there, one of the best is written by Mr. Psionics himself and the other top source is written by people on here who are notable experts on balance.