Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Liquid_Technique 02-14-08, 03:24 PM	Apparently Psionics did not make it to 4E PHB so it was fun while it lasted. No Psionics in 4E. Yeah maybe in time they will make some supplement book about Psionics for 4E but even in best case scenario that is going to take awfully long time. RIP Psionics (that's if your play group moves to using 4E).
Bacris 02-14-08, 03:29 PM	Um, not to rain on your parade, but this was discussed. Months ago. :) Psionics for 4E is expected in 2009.
Deekin 02-14-08, 03:29 PM	Apparently Psionics did not make it to 4E PHB so it was fun while it lasted. No Psionics in 4E. Yeah maybe in time they will make some supplement book about Psionics for 4E but even in best case scenario that is going to take awfully long time. RIP Psionics (that's if your play group moves to using 4E). :twitch: :banghead: Psionics have been confermed to be in the PHB II, which is coming out in 2009. Not only have psionics been conformed for 4e- Psions killed enchanters and took their stuff. Psionics will apperntly be the king of mental manipulation, and telekinesis. In other words, they are designing psionics so that a well built wizards can't do there specialty better than the psion.
AntiDjinn 02-14-08, 03:35 PM	As noted, 4E psionics is on the table, just not in the PHB. If Wizards continues with its current pattern (same at the Trek movies featuring original cast): 3.0 Psionics Handbook: Bad Expanded Psionics Handbook: Excellent Complete Psionics: Bad Then we are due for another excellent volume. Only every other book sucks, which is why Comp. Psi is actually a favorable sign.
deadkoo 02-14-08, 04:32 PM	another way to look at that would be to say that 2/3's of the psionic books for 3-.5 were bad. so the odds aren't in our favor..
GuyrtheadamantineOne 02-14-08, 04:35 PM	another way to look at that would be to say that 2/3's of the psionic books for 3-.5 were bad. so the odds aren't in our favor.. You mean WotC's books, right? Dreamscarred Press made quite good books, and Hyperconscious is gold. Finally, psychic combat that work!
deadkoo 02-14-08, 05:09 PM	yea, was talking 'bout the WoTC ones...
jbsaff 02-14-08, 05:45 PM	Psionics have been confermed to be in the PHB II, which is coming out in 2009. Not only have psionics been conformed for 4e- Psions killed enchanters and took their stuff. Psionics will apperntly be the king of mental manipulation, and telekinesis. In other words, they are designing psionics so that a well built wizards can't do there specialty better than the psion. I hadn't heard it will be in the PHBII. That's an improvement from the "incorporating into the game" standpoint. Hopefully it won't crimp the options presented too much, being in a more general book.
deadkoo 02-14-08, 05:55 PM	though it might make DMs start to think of Psions as core easier... I am constantly linking ppl to the FAQ at the top of this forum...
Tempest Stormwind 02-14-08, 06:52 PM	Furthermore, it's been shown that psionics *are* on the minds of people working on it -- they've said repeatedly that psionics won't be a bolted-on system, but rather considered from the get-go. Furthermore, one of the playtest characters -- by Bruce Cordell, naturally -- is a psion. (Uses wizard mechanics, but is a psion nevertheless). Furthermore, the D&D Miniatures rules, which were updated to reflect 4e, show an entire damage type with this in mind -- psychic. Speaking of track records, what's Liquid Technique's where it comes to accurate statements about psionics?
Nabuchadnezzar 02-14-08, 07:11 PM	I'm going to play a 3.5 game as a psion, and my DM talked about passing to 4e when the first manuals will be available... I told him that psionics won't be in the first manuals. I hope that we won't change version, or that we'll start from level 1 with all new PCs. It's a bad time to start a new campaign as a psion :(
Sithobi1 02-15-08, 01:39 AM	You could use the "wizard with the serial numbers filed off" approach...
JimProfit 02-15-08, 01:59 AM	I just see it as game balance wise. 2cd Edition: Overpowerd 3rd Edition: Underpowerd 3.5 Edition: Slightly overpowerd Logicaly this will make 4th edition psionics slightly underpowerd.
Lycanthromancer 02-15-08, 09:49 AM	I just see it as game balance wise. 2cd Edition: Overpowerd 3rd Edition: Underpowerd 3.5 Edition: Slightly overpowerd Logicaly this will make 4th edition psionics slightly underpowerd.Compared to the standard core fighter, sure. Otherwise, it's WELL BELOW the power level of half the classes in core, so the power level as you put it in 3.5 is non-sequitur.
4-armed kobold 02-15-08, 10:00 AM	If psionics in 4E will be mainly around mental powers such as mind manipulation, enchantments and telekinesis, where does that leave the psychic warrior? It would be a waste if the some of the good psychic warrior powers don't make it in the 4E. :(
kelvinaw273 02-15-08, 10:16 AM	WotC want to sell books, so they are not going to drop anything that is popular. They simply may not publish it as soon as we'd like. Looking at the various classes, all of them have their fans. Can anyone think of a class that does not have a following somewhere? I don't mean by being under/overpowered, but generally was so disappointing in both concept and mechanics that no-one would use it? I can only think of the Shugenja and the Ninja as classes no-one I know would use, and I bet even they have their fans.
The_Mess 02-15-08, 11:53 AM	I've played a Shugenja. I'm surprised the Ninja is so hated as it looked okay to me when I read it. I guess I'll have to check and see why the forums don't like it at some point. Over on the Rate the Classes thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=968062), the following classes actually scored lower than one of the NPC classes (the adept): monk healer spellthief truenamer soulknife samurai (Complete Warrior version) The Divine Mind and the Marshall are only barely above the adept, probably not statistically significant (that is, pretending the results have any scientific standing at all). Monk, Truenamer and Soulknife certainly have fans. I don't personally know any for the Healer (which is, frankly, an NPC class, whether they admit it or not), Spellthief or Samurai. However, much of 3.X will be a very long time in coming to 4.0. Considering how badly Incarnum sold, I doubt we'll be seeing it in 4.0 at all. Still, given how similar in some ways it was to what we're hearing of 4.0 mechanics, it might not take all that long to convert...
Bacris 02-15-08, 12:00 PM	Healer as a PC class is just bad, in my opinion, because now you're explicitly relegated to not being in the lime-light. I'm sorry, but diving in to heal the hero just doesn't seem like as much fun to me as BEING the hero and having a medic come patch you up so you can go defeat the BBEG.
The_Mess 02-15-08, 12:07 PM	In a completely unrelated Mutants and Masterminds game, our Healer super had related combat-useful powers. She could grant health to the bacteria in an opponent's system, causing them to rapidly reproduce out of control, giving the foe nausea, depriving them of senses (such as filling one's ear with energized bacteria), cause their wounds not to heal, etc. Combined with a utility belt of parasites to energize... That was fun!
CrimsonDeath 02-15-08, 02:43 PM	If psionics in 4E will be mainly around mental powers such as mind manipulation, enchantments and telekinesis, where does that leave the psychic warrior? It would be a waste if the some of the good psychic warrior powers don't make it in the 4E. :( The Psychic Warrior will probably be roughly the same-- using psychic powers to improve one's own physical capabilities is a pretty common idea.
InkBlot 02-15-08, 03:17 PM	I don't think they'll completely do away with psychometabolism, psychoportation, or metacreativity. Especially if they're taking more information from Hinduism, mind over body, mind over matter, and thought forms are very important to the psionic flavor. And 4e combat is supposed to be more mobile, so they've gotta leave psychoportation in for that at least. As far as I know, all we know for sure is that they're de-emphasizing arcane enchantments so that psions will have a niche. They never said they're completely removing arcane enchantments, so we shouldn't assume they'd completely remove psionic conjuring/transmuting/teleporting.
Lycanthromancer 02-15-08, 04:13 PM	It's likely that psionics will just be another form of magic, using the same mechanics with different ability sets. Psions will be just another subset of arcane caster with psi-abilities. Thus, it's going to be just as horrible as the rest of it. At least, if it's ANYTHING like 3e. It might be awesome stuff, but given D&D's balance track record so far, I'm not holding my breath.
4-armed kobold 02-15-08, 07:13 PM	Well, I do hope that they keep most of the unique psychic warrior powers anyway. Most on the list have no arcane equivalent, mechanical or otherwise, i.e. call weaponry, hustle, strenght of my enemy, etc. I on the other hand, would be curious on how they would categorize those powers based on at will, per encounter and per day usage. Furthermore, proper selection of the powers can either make the psychic warrior a tank, striker or sometimes a bit of a controller.
moebius00 02-16-08, 02:24 PM	Healer as a PC class is just bad, in my opinion, because now you're explicitly relegated to not being in the lime-light. I'm sorry, but diving in to heal the hero just doesn't seem like as much fun to me as BEING the hero and having a medic come patch you up so you can go defeat the BBEG. Unless you're in an undead-heavy campaign. ;)
JimProfit 02-16-08, 02:55 PM	WotC want to sell books, so they are not going to drop anything that is popular. They simply may not publish it as soon as we'd like. Looking at the various classes, all of them have their fans. Can anyone think of a class that does not have a following somewhere? I don't mean by being under/overpowered, but generally was so disappointing in both concept and mechanics that no-one would use it? I can only think of the Shugenja and the Ninja as classes no-one I know would use, and I bet even they have their fans. I love ninja, but wouldn't touch the ninja class with a ten foot pole. Perfect ninja=rogue ultimately taking prestige class levels in assassin or shadowdancer. (Or both) And clerics aren't so bad, they could afford to be depowerd, and even if all i could do was heal, id be too important to be taken for granteed. You'd want to stay on my nice side or atleast protect me physichaly so i can heal you. I think I should've named myself Heal Nazi. http://atangledweb.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/soupnazi.jpg "No cure wounds for you!"
archerpwr 02-16-08, 03:42 PM	Compared to the standard core fighter, sure. Otherwise, it's WELL BELOW the power level of half the classes in core, so the power level as you put it in 3.5 is non-sequitur. Stronger than Psion: Cleric, Wizard, Druid, Sorcerer Roughly equal: Bard Weaker: Ranger, Fighter, Monk, Barbarian Wait a minute... Psion is perfect middle of the rad by my count. How the hell did that happen? Aren't psions supposed to be broken?
InkBlot 02-16-08, 03:51 PM	It's likely that psionics will just be another form of magic, using the same mechanics with different ability sets. Psions will be just another subset of arcane caster with psi-abilities. Looking back, the same thing was said about 3rd edition psionics, and was said again about our beloved XPH. Psionic focus is the only thing that really solid thing that sets 3.5 psionics apart from magic. Power points are just spell slots chopped up fine. Powers come in 9 levels, are arranged in lists (as opposed to trees). Each power is tied to certain classes. The powers scale the same way (though with a higher cost). Psionics has the same meta feats as magic. They're exceedingly similar, mechanically. Despite that, 3.5 psionics manages to distinguish itself by adhering tightly to a theme. Psionics primarily affect the manifester. Powers often require concentration. Powers don't combine a grab-bag of unrelated effects. Powers are primarily grouped by how they affect the world, rather than what their effects are. Psionics doesn't do necromancy, illusions, or summoning. I believe that in 4th edition, psionics will be distinguished in a similar manner. A psion will be at least as different from a wizard as a warlock is.
Mercurius 02-16-08, 06:51 PM	I'm pretty sure that "Psionic" is a confirmed power source, just like Arcane, Divine, and Martial (the three power sources the classes of the PHBI use). General speculation is that the PHBII will have three new power sources (typical guesses seem to be Psionic, Shadow, and Primal/Natural). And Psionics will be Core, because in 4e, every book will be core. The monster manuals that get released every year? Core! The DMG II, III, IV, VII? Core! Every PHB? Core! Which I guess means that at least theoretically, there'll be support for later classes in follow-up books and supplements, rather than this "We've released a new book, but we can only actually provide rules for how it interacts with the 11 core classes" thing that most 3.x books did.
Jaxgaret 02-18-08, 06:08 PM	Furthermore, the D&D Miniatures rules, which were updated to reflect 4e, show an entire damage type with this in mind -- psychic. Any details on that? It seems possible that it will not just be "another energy type" for resistance purposes, and might have some mechanical differences from other damage types. Speaking of track records, what's Liquid Technique's where it comes to accurate statements about psionics? :rofl: Just about nil as far as I can tell.
Khan the Destroyer 02-18-08, 10:47 PM	Compared to the standard core fighter, sure. Otherwise, it's WELL BELOW the power level of half the classes in core, so the power level as you put it in 3.5 is non-sequitur. Stronger than Psion: Cleric, Wizard, Druid, Sorcerer Roughly equal: Bard Weaker: Ranger, Fighter, Monk, Barbarian Wait a minute... Psion is perfect middle of the rad by my count. How the hell did that happen? Aren't psions supposed to be broken? Like just about any class, a psion can be broken. Perhaps not in every way as the wizard/sorcerer, since many spells are simply not replicated by powers, but psions can achieve huge novas, limitless power points, and mundane stuff like your standard polymorph cheese. Surely they can be more powerful than your cleric or druid, unless you think that being able to melee very well is worth your spell list. My two cents.
Lycanthromancer 02-18-08, 11:02 PM	There are a huge number of spells that are part of incredibly broken combos, or that are even extremely broken in and of themselves. You can nearly double your spell capacity with a couple of summon monster and summon nature's ally castings. Animal companions, divine power, and righteous might pretty well replace the entire fighter/barbarian/ranger classes by themselves. And not combined, I might add. WotC made clerics and druids more powerful than most of the other classes because they're the healers of the group, and spending most of your spell-slots on healing means that you have to have some really nice spells to make up for it. Unfortunately, this Achilles' heal, as it were, is completely made up for by the fact that you can replace that entire vulnerability with, say, a wand. Thus, CoDzilla can dance along its merry way, obliterating everything in its path (badly-dubbed Engrish notwithstanding). Psionics has nothing to compare.
Khan the Destroyer 02-18-08, 11:37 PM	I just simply don't think that's as badass as other people do. You seem to be exaggerating the power of the druid and cleric while downplaying the power of the psion. My intention isn't to start a debate over this, but I did not say the Psion is the strongest class. I said they can be broken, like just about every other class, and can be stronger than the druid or cleric. Maybe I'm too uninformed to make the last comment there. I don't normally see people refer to a cleric's ability to cast a summon spell to access other spells as a show of their power. Normally it's their ability to melee, and then the prestige classes. Even if I end up wrong on that point, I still believe psions can be broken, despite what other classes are capable of.
Lycanthromancer 02-18-08, 11:43 PM	They CAN be broken, but psionics is the least breakable of the decent magic systems. Note that I'm not talking about things like, say, incarnum, but definitely as opposed to core. It takes far more effort to break - more resources. And generally those resources are far removed from the core XPH - fully 50% of the 1st party psionics supplements. CPsi doesn't count because it's craptastic, and actually decreases the efficacy of psionics. Divine magic basically makes all the other classes obsolete. A party of 4 clerics can take on any challenge even remotely appropriate for their CR, and so can druids. Can you say the same for any other single class?
deadkoo 02-19-08, 02:23 PM	... 4 frenzied barbarians would do allright... :D
Nephlite 02-19-08, 05:51 PM	... 4 frenzied barbarians would do allright... :D Wouldn't they kill each other?
InkBlot 02-19-08, 06:39 PM	Yes, but they wouldn't die until their frenzies wore off.
Elton74 02-20-08, 08:33 AM	4e's nice, but I think I'll get married first. :)
CrimsonDeath 02-20-08, 11:43 AM	4e's nice, but I think I'll get married first. :) Already got someone in mind?