Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Twippie_Diggs 02-22-07, 07:42 PM	i made sure to post the question in the title so plkease no flaming if this has been asked too death. you know what you were getting into when you read this post. anyhow... so ya what are they? +0 or +1. looking forward for the answer too my dilemma, and thanks in advance.
Tralan 02-22-07, 07:45 PM	in the Eratta it stated that the Blue's monster entry should read +1 as well. As stupid as it sounds, a Blue aparently a Blue is more powerful than, say, an elan or regular human (the real answer is. Bruce and WotC are just morons).
Khantalas 02-22-07, 08:00 PM	See, this is a funny thing we all argue about. Blues more or less get one extra power point over the normal goblins. One. It's like giving a race an extra 0-level spell slot, but not the ability to actually cast spells to use that 0-level spell. Sure, you get the ability to have psionic focus, but you may also have an army of psion-killers after you. Do you think goblins are so borderline overpowered for LA 0 that blues deserve an LA of +1? The Society of Blue Equality asks you to think about it. Real hard. With psionics.
Thomar_of_Uointer 02-23-07, 12:48 AM	See, this is a funny thing we all argue about. Blues more or less get one extra power point over the normal goblins. One. It's like giving a race an extra 0-level spell slot, but not the ability to actually cast spells to use that 0-level spell. Sure, you get the ability to have psionic focus, but you may also have an army of psion-killers after you. Do you think goblins are so borderline overpowered for LA 0 that blues deserve an LA of +1? The Society of Blue Equality asks you to think about it. Real hard. With psionics. No, it's one per four caster levels (not that overpowering, look at kalashtar), and the save DCs of all of their powers are improved by +1. It's like an always-on Psionic Endowment that stacks with Psionic Endowment. They also get +1 skill point per level, which treads on the human's shtick. Anyways, because of the fundamental manner in which spellcasting and manifesting classes work, the +2 Intelligence bonus is overpowered. It's not the blue, it's the psion and wizard. Were you using incarnum-only or some other oddball magic system, that might not be the case.
starwed 02-23-07, 03:33 AM	LA's are always determined from the most optimal use of the race. In this case, a blue wizard/psion gain a lot from that +2 to int. (And as mentioned above, although it's stupid that a +2 mental ability mod merits an increase in LA, that's the fault of the casting system.) If a player is not planning on being a wizard or psion, there's not really any reason for the DM to prevent them from taking the Blue as an LA 0 class. And if they are, the DM should realise that the Blue is quite underpowered for LA +1, and perhaps toss them some extra bonus.
Shado 02-23-07, 12:56 PM	:ahem: Grey Elf. :waits: Blue are balanced at LA 0.
RadicalTaoist 02-23-07, 01:31 PM	Buommans and mind-focused Hellbred are also LA +0 casting stat increase races (Wis and Cha, respectively).
Jhaelen 02-23-07, 04:50 PM	And if they are, the DM should realise that the Blue is quite underpowered for LA +1, and perhaps toss them some extra bonus.That's what I did. Just like normal goblins they get a +2 to DEX. I don't see why a blue should lose that racial benefit. I still consider them to be one of the weaker LA+1 races, but at least it makes them a better choice for a greater variety of builds.
Twippie_Diggs 02-23-07, 10:25 PM	well dang, i was hoping that they would be a LA +0, however, i may be able to talk my dm into letting him slide as a +0. thanks for the replies everyone. may the fight for the betterment of Blues everywhere keep on keeping on for the sake of our future, our children and our future. children.
Doomed_Penguin 02-23-07, 10:36 PM	may the fight for the betterment of Blues everywhere keep on keeping on for the sake of our future, our children and our future. children. HAHA!!! Future children... if you hadn't noticed, we all play D&D. Future children... cracks me up... (I know that my above statement isn't neccesarily true, but it's still pretty funny, imho. Just don't take offence to it; I mean, I play D&D too.)
Thomar_of_Uointer 02-24-07, 12:07 AM	Grey Elf. Is not allowed at my table.
Bacris 02-24-07, 12:25 AM	Is not allowed at my table. That's almost the Oberoni Fallacy :) Just because you're house-ruling it doesn't mean it's not a valid point to bring up. The gray elf is core, ergo, it's a very valid argument. The dwarf and the gray elf are two very, very strong LA0 races. The blue, on the other hand, is totally not worth that +1.
Scion of Coldshard 02-24-07, 01:33 AM	I would say that +2 dex is worth more to an archer type than +2 int is to a wizard/psion. Even better than that if you are a ray type wizard/psion the +2 dex is likely even better for you than the +2 int.
calronmoonflower 02-24-07, 07:51 PM	If you look at the rules for creating you own races in Savage Species. The +2 to Int would warrent a +1 LA, but being small (page 11) in size gives you a -1 adjestment as well. So by the that books rules the Blue should be +0.
starwed 02-24-07, 11:52 PM	That's almost the Oberoni Fallacy Just because you're house-ruling it doesn't mean it's not a valid point to bring up. The gray elf is core, ergo, it's a very valid argument. Arguing that because something is allowed by the rules, it is not broken, is also a fallacy. I'm not sure if it has a fancy name, but it's pretty self-evident. ^_^ And while most things core are balanced, the grey elf isn't really a core player race; I doubt it was available to playtesters to the extent that the PHB races were. The dwarf and the gray elf are two very, very strong LA0 races. The blue, on the other hand, is totally not worth that +1. Racial power is a spectrum, while LA is discrete. Being too weak for a +1 does not imply that a race is ok at LA 0.
Redmoon 02-25-07, 09:40 AM	I've looked this over so many times, wondering the same thing, and it just doesn't make sense to me. The only difference between blues & goblins is that blues have +2 Int instead of +2 dex, and that single power point. And no one plays goblins as characters, because they're fodder. Saying a goblin, or even a blue is equal in power is like saying a kobold is equal in power. Fun? yes. Possible to play & keep up with other races? yes. But, you have to seriously min/max and plan your character, compared to the other races. Make the blue +1 LA, but give him Hidden Talent, instead of that single 1 PP, or make him like a kalashtar where he gets 1 pp/level. Also, where did this information come from? No, it's one per four caster levels (not that overpowering, look at kalashtar), and the save DCs of all of their powers are improved by +1. It's like an always-on Psionic Endowment that stacks with Psionic Endowment. They also get +1 skill point per level, which treads on the human's shtick.
Bacris 02-25-07, 09:59 AM	+2 INT does all that.
Vintar 02-25-07, 10:11 AM	Actually - regular goblins are very playable. Basically they are faster halflings with a -2 Charisma. They don't get the +1 to saves - but they do get darkvision. (In my opinion most handy for scout/rogue types). The main thing that makes them playable though is the full speed as small size - everyone seems to forget about that. Overall I'd say the halfling has a slight edge - but not much.
Finfreeze 02-25-07, 10:44 AM	I'd actually give the edge to goblins, since they get a huge bonus to move silently as well as a size bonus on hide checks (granted, lightfeet get more spread out bonuses). Plus halflings don't have any sort of special vision unless you go deep halfling. I'd say that blues could be LA +0 IF humans get a +2 to intelligence, thereby opening the floodgates...more...for other LA +0 core races to get mental bonuses. Well, blues get Psionic Dodge as a bonus feat, so I think it evens out a bit. Weaker than a human overall, but more specialized for intelligence-based spellcasting and roguish activities.
Thomar_of_Uointer 02-25-07, 02:30 PM	Also, where did this information come from? Check out what +2 Int gives to a psion. Ah, it's even higher than I guessed, sorry about getting it wrong the first time, not bothering to check the rules a bad habit I got from DMing. :D http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/index.htm#tableAbilityModifiersandBonusP owerPoints That's +1 pp per two manifester levels.
JulesCARV 02-25-07, 02:37 PM	Well, blues get Psionic Dodge as a bonus feat, so I think it evens out a bit. Hmm... do they? I'm thinking that the sample blue is screwed up. The "blues as characters" bit doesn't say anything about psionic dodge. The sample blue gets psionic body as its first level feat, psionic dodge as its level 1 psion bonus feat but it doesn't have the dodge feat, so it doesn't meet the prerequisites. Either that, or blues get psionic dodge as a bonus feat, but they lose their first level feat. Or maybe the blue should have three feats? (one first level, one psion, and one racial bonus) I don't know. I think they just screwed up the blue entry in the MM and forgot that psionic dodge required dodge.
Finfreeze 02-25-07, 02:47 PM	The errata (at least) has them with Psionic Dodge as a bonus feat, with Psionic Body as their 1st level feat. The true SRD (as opposed to the errataed d20SRD and Sovelior/Sage compilations) lists them as having Wild Talent as a bonus feat. It doesn't make sense anyway, since in order to get Psionic Dodge as a psion feat you'd have to have the prerequisite... Wow. Either way, things like this are easy to miss. If you just read the "Bugbears as Characters" section, for instance, you'd miss out on the fact that they have the Scent ability. EDIT: It is a racial bonus feat, as the Harpy Archer (Fighter 7) doesn't have the little superscript B next to its fighter feats in its entry. Also, a wizard, cleric, or druid did it. When in doubt, blame them.
JulesCARV 02-25-07, 02:55 PM	So if psionic dodge is a racial bonus feat, what is the sample blue's level 1 psion bonus feat? If it's Psionic Body, what's their normal level 1 feat?
Finfreeze 02-25-07, 03:00 PM	Some interesting notes in the monsters section... The line gives the creature’s feats. A monster gains feats just as a character does. Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript B (B). Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat. If you wish to customize the creature with new feats, you can reassign its other feats, but not its bonus feats. A creature cannot have a feat that is not a bonus feat unless it has the feat’s prerequisites.
Witch 02-25-07, 03:28 PM	Anyways, because of the fundamental manner in which spellcasting and manifesting classes work, the +2 Intelligence bonus is overpowered. Prove it. I've seen so many people claim it, and I know it used to be WotC design philosophy, but I've yet to see that claim supported.
Shado 02-25-07, 05:09 PM	O.K. I want to put this all together in one place. Below, I have the stats listed for the Blue and other relevant races from the SRD and other sources I can legally “reprint”. Blue Blue characters possess the following racial traits. • -2 Strength, +2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma. • Small size: +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, -4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits ¾ of those of Medium characters. • Blue base land speed is 30 feet. • Darkvision out to 60 feet. • Naturally Psionic: Blues gain 1 bonus power point at 1st level. • Racial Skills: A blue character has a +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks and Ride checks. • Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc. • Favored Class: Psion. • Level Adjustment: +1. Goblin Goblin characters possess the following racial traits. • -2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma. • Small size: +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, -4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits ¾ those of Medium characters. • A goblin’s base land speed is 30 feet. • Darkvision out to 60 feet. • +4 racial bonus on Move Silently and Ride checks. • Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc. • Favored Class: Rogue. Brother race to the Blue. Relevant as their power level is similar and abilities are nearly identical. +2 DEX is a +1 to Reflex saves, +1 to AC, +1 with ranged attacks (including ray touch powers) and can be a +1 to melee in the case of Weapon Finesse. Higher DEX in general also allows for higher likelihood of qualifying for some feats. Halflings Halflings possess the following racial traits. • +2 Dexterity, -2 Strength. • Small size. +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, -4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits ¾ those of Medium characters. • A halfling’s base land speed is 20 feet. • +2 racial bonus on Climb, Jump, and Move Silently checks. • +1 racial bonus on all saving throws. • +2 morale bonus on saving throws against fear. This bonus stacks with the halfling’s +1 bonus on saving throws in general. • +1 racial bonus on attack rolls with thrown weapons and slings. • +2 racial bonus on Listen checks. • Automatic Languages: Common, Halfling. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Orc. • Favored Class: Rogue. Deep Halflings Deep Halfling Traits These traits are in addition to the lightfoot halfling traits, except where noted. • Darkvision out to 60 feet. • Stonecunning: Like dwarves, deep halflings have a +2 racial bonus on checks to notice unusual stonework. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A deep halfling who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a check as though actively searching and can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can. A deep halfling can also intuit depth, sensing the approximate distance underground as naturally as a human can sense which way is up. • +2 racial bonus on Appraise checks and Craft checks that are related to stone or metal. • Deep halflings are less athletic than lightfoot halflings and do not have a racial bonus on Climb, Jump, and Move Silently checks. I included Deep Halflings here incase anyone felt that Darkvision was a major difference between the races. The Halfling is relevant for being the closest thing to a Goblin (stat wise) in the PHB. Doesn’t have the penalty to CHA (another casting stat) and has many favorable bonuses to various skills. Halflings have the same DEX benefits I described for the regular Goblin race. More important here is the sub-race of Strongheart Halfling (found in the Forgotten Realms.) The Strongheart’s bonus feat is a very strong gain, and if spent on a feat like Hidden Talent (or even Wild Talent), it gives us a virtual Psionic Halfling race. Fun from a flavor stand point, but it's even better as it can be any feat the character qualifies for. It's not just about having the psionic sub-type (which your class can give you) or a power point or two. Gray Elves Gray Elves possess the following racial traits. • +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, -2 Strength. • Medium size. • An elf’s base land speed is 30 feet. • Immunity to sleep spells and effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects. (Not reflected in the saving throw modifiers given here.) • Low-light vision. • Weapon Proficiency: Elves are automatically proficient with the longsword, rapier, longbow, composite longbow, shortbow, and composite shortbow. • +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it. • Automatic Languages: Common, Elven. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Sylvan. • Favored Class: Wizard. The first measure of casting stat bonuses vs. LA cost. Bonus to DEX and INT and the general benefits of elf-dom. I think the Gray Elf is important as it stood unchanged in the conversion to 3.5. Whisper Gnomes Whisper Gnome Racial Traits (Available for free in the Races of Stone (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=3) excerpts) • +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, -2 Strength, -2 Charisma. • Small: As a Small creature, a whisper gnome gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but he uses smaller weapons than humans use, and his lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character. • Whisper gnome base land speed is 30 feet. • Low-Light Vision. • Darkvision out to 60 feet • Weapon Familiarity: Whisper gnomes treat gnome hooked hammers as martial weapons rather than exotic weapons. • +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against kobolds and goblinoids. • +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant. • +4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks. • +2 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks. • Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day -- silence (must be centered on whisper gnome's body). A whisper gnome with a Charisma score of at least 10 also has the following spell-like abilities: 1/day -- ghost sound, mage hand, message. Caster level 1st; save DC 10 + whisper gnome's Cha modifier + spell level. • Favored Class: Rogue • Racial Feats: The Extra Silence and Silencing Strike feats can be taken by whisper gnome characters (see Chapter 6: Character Options). Meets and exceeds so many of the Blue/Goblin stats, including the rare small size/30 ft. movement. Kalashtar Kalashtar Racial Traits (Available for free in the “Mind Games in Eberron (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eb/20040413a)” excerpt.) • Medium size. • Kalashtar base land speed is 30 feet. • +2 racial bonus on saving throws against mind-affecting spells and effects, and possession. • +2 racial bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks. • +2 racial bonus on Disguise checks made to impersonate a human. • Immunity to the dream and nightmare spells, as well as any other effect that relies on the character dreaming: The kalashtar do not dream. • Naturally Psionic: Kalashtar gain 1 extra power point per character level, regardless of whether they choose a psionic class. • Psi-like Abilities: Mindlink (1/day). This ability is like the power manifested by a wilder of 1/2 the kalashtar's Hit Dice (minimum 1st level). • Automatic Languages: Common and Quor. Bonus Languages: Draconic and Riedran. • Favored Class: Psion I only brought up the Kalashtar from a power point angle. Blue will gain 10 power points due to their INT if they level all 20 levels in an INT manifesting class. Kalashtar gain 20 regardless of how they level. (Gives more flexibility. Ardents, Wilders, multiclass builds that dip psi or outside of psi...) Note: I feel the power of a hand full of pp is questionable. The Blue’s extra power points on a Psion 20 equates to less than 2.5% of their total pp. (Figuring at least a 20 INT by then.) Other LA 0 races that I am aware of and are relevant to the discussion (I cannot legally reprint the stats): • Vanara (OA) – +2 to both INT and WIS • Lesser Assimar (?) – +2 CHA as I understand • Star Elves (?) – Again, as I understand +2 CHA The point here is that each and every one of these races are LA 0 races except the Blue. And each of these races is arguably as strong if not stronger than the Blue. (Both on the whole and in specific psionic builds designed to capitalize on the strengths of the chosen race.) I've listed two with the offending stat of +2 INT (one of which is core), plus two more that have bonuses to other casting stats. (And I know there are more with bonuses to WIS and such... I just don't have the books.) I really feel there is ample evidence that the Blue is balanced against other races as a LA 0 race. When I look at the strength of other LA +1 races I see a gapping hole between them and the Blue. To balance a Blue at +1 would require giving them something like: +2 DEX (and take away the penalty to CHA) some psi-like ability, and maybe some bonuses vs. Mind-Affecting? I can't say for sure... but dropping the LA is a lot easier, and has the least impact on the game. I believe I've seen all the arguments and this is still only my opinion, but it's where I stand, and I don't foresee being budged.
Tralan 02-25-07, 06:23 PM	I agree. +2 intelligence is great for a wizard/psion, and why wouldn't one be a Blue Wizard or Psion? But that's all they're limited to. -2 strength makes options like a soulknife, psychic warrior, or even just regular ol' fighter not so fun. -2 Cha makes wilders less appealing. It's not so overpowered that it warrents losing a whole level over. It's good. it's very good. But it's not insane kewl "I'll pwn you" good... I feel so dirty now. i used "kewl" and "pwn" in the same sentance *huddles in the shower crying*
Thomar_of_Uointer 02-26-07, 12:34 AM	I agree. +2 intelligence is great for a wizard/psion, and why wouldn't one be a Blue Wizard or Psion? But that's all they're limited to. -2 strength makes options like a soulknife, psychic warrior, or even just regular ol' fighter not so fun. -2 Cha makes wilders less appealing. It's not so overpowered that it warrents losing a whole level over. It's good. it's very good. But it's not insane kewl "I'll pwn you" good... I feel so dirty now. i used "kewl" and "pwn" in the same sentance *huddles in the shower crying* So you're saying that because certain builds are suboptimal, the race isn't as powerful as it deserves to be? Riiight.
Witch 02-26-07, 06:55 AM	So you're saying that because certain builds are suboptimal, the race isn't as powerful as it deserves to be? Riiight. I noticed you haven't answered to my post. Prove to me that a +2 mental stat bonus warrants an LA.
Linkrulesx10 02-26-07, 08:47 AM	I for one am playing a grey elf psion (kineticist 5 Anarchic Initate 3) and yes I have optimized as much as I realistacally can, and each and everytime I look at my feats just one thing runs through my mind, why not a human, I wouldn't have died 3 times due to lack of hp, (3rd time I am level 8, I think the various DM's do not like psionics) and I would have had another feat... To be honest the 26 intelligence is nice but quite often I am thinking I would have been better off with a bonus feat. So when I am comparing + 2 int to a bonus feat it starts to make you wonder is the + 2 int really as good as it claims. And I also believe the blue should be LA 0.
Thomar_of_Uointer 02-26-07, 10:44 AM	I noticed you haven't answered to my post. Prove to me that a +2 mental stat bonus warrants an LA. Human racial abilities: Bonus feat, skill points. +2 Int race's racial abilities: Skill points, +1 to the save DCs of all Wizard and Psion spells, additional spell slots/pp (1 on the low end, 2 on the higher end, and the higher the score the higher-level the slots are, pp is a bit more congruous here). Feat: Spell Focus, which gives +1 to the save DCs of spells from a single spell school. +2 Int grants about seven more feats than the human and spell slots/pp, making it a better choice than human for a wizard with high spell save DCs, especially since it stacks with Spell Focus. Thus, +2 Int race is more powerful than a human.
Scion of Coldshard 02-26-07, 10:50 AM	Feat: Spell Focus, which gives +1 to the save DCs of spells from a single spell school. Thus, +2 Int race is more powerful than a human. So you are saying that because a really weak feat exists that +2 int is more powerful? I call shenanigans. Especially if you ignore that you can build off of feats.
Bacris 02-26-07, 10:54 AM	I'm going to have to disagree with that, Thomar, because by that argument, pretty much all the races except Half-Elf are more than an LA 0. Elves get two free feats - weapon proficiency. Halflings get two free feats - weapon focus sling / thrown Dwarves get +1 HP per level, +1 on Fort saves, 2 bonus exotic weapon feats for all martial-classes, +2 bonus on all saves against spells and spell-like effects, and bonus skill checks. So, the dwarf is a better fighter than the human. Ergo, the dwarf isn't balanced at LA 0.
Thomar_of_Uointer 02-26-07, 02:32 PM	So you are saying that because a really weak feat exists that +2 int is more powerful? I call shenanigans. Especially if you ignore that you can build off of feats. Why do you think Spell Focus is a weak feat? I'm going to have to disagree with that, Thomar, because by that argument, pretty much all the races except Half-Elf are more than an LA 0. Elves get two free feats - weapon proficiency. Halflings get two free feats - weapon focus sling / thrown Dwarves get +1 HP per level, +1 on Fort saves, 2 bonus exotic weapon feats for all martial-classes, +2 bonus on all saves against spells and spell-like effects, and bonus skill checks. So, the dwarf is a better fighter than the human. Ergo, the dwarf isn't balanced at LA 0. Elvish proficencies don't synergize well with builds that don't already get the proficencies. Halflings actually get what's equivalent to Weapon Focus for all thrown weapons, that's about twenty feats, more if you count improvised thrown weapons. But that's a different issue, I do think halflings are overpowered. And don't get me started on gnomes, I guess it's to compensate for Small size or something. :P Dwarves are decidedly overpowered, I agree with that too. However, I think they're tolerable because their abilities don't synergize well.
Scion of Coldshard 02-26-07, 02:38 PM	Why do you think Spell Focus is a weak feat? It costs a feat and applies only to a single school which typically means a single save. Generally speaking this means that up to around a third of your spells could get the benefit, unless you are really gimping yourself for other options. Typically I assume 1/3 of spells prepared are offensive, 1/3 defensive, and 1/3 utility, generally you want the 1/3 offensive to work off of different saves or no save to get maximum use. If it is for a spontaneous caster like the sorcerer it can help a bit more but it forces the sorcer to pick multiple, and likely somewhat redundant, spells from the same school in order to get the benefit. So it basically provides a small benefit to a subset of spells which forces you to hamper your character just to get its small benefit. Overall, just a bad feat. It was tolerable when it was +2, but +1? No thanks. Good as a prereq though, but then so is toughness. Sadly the psionic version is even worse. Go figure.
Thomar_of_Uointer 02-26-07, 02:42 PM	It costs a feat and applies only to a single school which typically means a single save. Generally speaking this means that up to around a third of your spells could get the benefit, unless you are really gimping yourself for other options. Typically I assume 1/3 of spells prepared are offensive, 1/3 defensive, and 1/3 utility, generally you want the 1/3 offensive to work off of different saves or no save to get maximum use. If it is for a spontaneous caster like the sorcerer it can help a bit more but it forces the sorcer to pick multiple, and likely somewhat redundant, spells from the same school in order to get the benefit. So it basically provides a small benefit to a subset of spells which forces you to hamper your character just to get its small benefit. Overall, just a bad feat. It was tolerable when it was +2, but +1? No thanks. Good as a prereq though, but then so is toughness. Sadly the psionic version is even worse. Go figure. What if you're an evoker who is only going to use fireballs and lightning bolts? What if you're an illusionist who's going to fake it all with shadow conjuration/evocation? Fighters do something similar, in that they typically use one type of weapon, and the mechanical effect (+1 to the roll for Weapon Focus, +1 to the save DC for Spell Focus) is nearly identical.
Scion of Coldshard 02-26-07, 02:50 PM	What if you're an evoker who is only going to use fireballs and lightning bolts? Prepare to be dissapointed after about level 6 or so unless the dm is a kindly soul or the campaign is low level human(oid) specific. What if you're an illusionist who's going to fake it all with shadow conjuration/evocation? You will need the feat that makes your illusions more real. That way you can use offensive, defensive, and utility illusions to greater effect. Fighters do something similar, in that they typically use one type of weapon, and the mechanical effect (+1 to the roll for Weapon Focus, +1 to the save DC for Spell Focus) is nearly identical. Nearly identical in that the number is the same? +1 con is the same as +1 initiative is the same as +1 to hit is the same as +1 to movement? A fighter type can swing his sword many times in a given round and many, many times in a the course of a day and it will add a little bit of effect each time. Of course it is also seen as not being a powerful feat but merely one that helps them do what they were already doing anyway. Having +1 to your attack does not limit your other options nearly as much as having to focus all of your spells in one direction to get a benefit either. Two very different opportunity costs there as well.
Witch 02-27-07, 04:35 PM	As has been stated, a weak feat for a relatively weak race isn't exactly an argument. Furthermore, your statement about dwarves being "overpowered for LA 0" proves the invalidity of your argument. Balance isn't about being at exactly the same power level. It's about being roughly the same, and not having very noticeable differences in play. I somehow doubt that a +2 increase to a mental stat will be really noticeable.
ArcTan 02-28-07, 04:23 PM	Everyone I've seen who tries to defend Bruce Cordell's wonky "+2 to mental stat = LA +1" philosophy counts feats to prove their point. Which really annoys me, because counting feats is an incredibly stupid way to prove anything. Feats are the element in D&D that scale the most poorly and have the greatest divergence in power. (Toughness is a feat. Power Attack is a feat. Are they equal in power, or in any way whatsoever?) Sorry, you're gonna have to prove this empirically. Not through wonky mathematics, but by actually showing that by reducing the Blue's LA to 0, suddenly every powergamer in the universe will play only Blue Wizards or Blue Psions and throw all other races by the wayside. Frankly, I don't see it happening.
ArcTan 02-28-07, 04:26 PM	Keep in mind, by the way, that this is the same Bruce Cordell who thought Shapers were so brokenly broken they needed the horrendous nerf of "Only one Astral Construct at a time", and that crystal shard powers needed to be blocked by damage resistance. I don't trust a word the man says about balance anymore.