What role do in the party? [Archive] - Wizards Community

What role do in the party? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rechan
08-21-07, 11:35 PM Okay.

I get that Kineticists are the blasters, Shapers are summoners and second-hand blasters. Telepaths are good anti-buffers - they hamper the enemy, giving them lots of negatives and disabling effects.

But what role do the Nomad, Seer and Egoist fill?

The Nomad and Seer seem fine outside of combat, but inside of combat...

Nomads really are a lot of 'get me out of here', not doing anything to the enemy.

Seers are diviners that... don't do much in the middle of a fight.

And Egoists can enhance their bodies, but that's pretty like a self-buffing wizard. He can puff himself up, but he's... still got a wizard's BAB and a d4 HD. Until he hits 7th level and can polymorph himself, what can he Do?

So what do they GIVE to a party?
Vharuck
08-21-07, 11:43 PM Nomads are tactical characters in battle. They don't usually dish out the damage or buff the others; they make sure that their teammates are in the most advantageous positions or can reach said positions, while their enemies are at a disadvantage.

Seers can affect combat more than any other psion. Why? Their powers come before the encounter, and shape the circumstances of the encounter. Surprised by a demon? Nope. The psion saw it coming a mile away and now everyone has cold iron weapons (the psion even has cold iron bolts for good measure!). Also, the rogue bought a scroll of the exact right spell to use to beat the next obstacle with no effort, because he was told what to buy.

Egoists... umm... I'd say that they could focus on combat. Which makes them useful, since they can melee (or ranged) while also having a few utility and damage powers.
Novem
08-21-07, 11:51 PM Like a Wizard, a Psion who tries can be just about anything (although he generally has to try harder). Just because you're an Egoist doesn't mean you only take Psychometabolism powers, the Psion/Wilder list is full of blasting powers, etc.
We'll take this case-by-case:
A Seer is, like you said, a Diviner. To find out what it does for a party, ask yourself: What does a Diviner do? Like a Diviner, he probably won't be using all Clairsentience powers in combat (though they can be useful vs. hidden opponents and the like), but more of the general list of Psion/Wilder powers. Crystal Shard is my favorite.

An Egoist can be like a Cleric or Bard- buffs for himself and the party, with a melee role provided by touch attacks (theoretically, an Egoist would first buff himself to make up for poor HD and BAB).

A Nomad- well, think Nightcrawler. Add in temporal stuff, and, as you said, non-Combat usefulness, and non-Psychoportation powers, and you're golden.

While not as flexible as the Wizard, a Psion has no one role in a party, beyond "Mage".
Rechan
08-22-07, 12:36 AM A Seer is, like you said, a Diviner. To find out what it does for a party, ask yourself: What does a Diviner do? Like a Diviner, he probably won't be using all Clairsentience powers in combat (though they can be useful vs. hidden opponents and the like), but more of the general list of Psion/Wilder powers. Crystal Shard is my favorite.

Well in all honesty I don't see Diviners doing a lot for a party unless they need ANSWERS to something. I see them pretty much standing on the sidelines going "Not in the face" when the swords start swinging. They can cast a boom or a buff spell here or there, but their focus in something out-of-combat limits them in it.

An Egoist can be like a Cleric or Bard- buffs for himself and the party, with a melee role provided by touch attacks (theoretically, an Egoist would first buff himself to make up for poor HD and BAB).

Which powers are effective for someone Else? Sure, he could function as a backup healer afterwards with Empathic Transfer and Body Adjustment, but those are a lot of power points right there, and you'd have to do that after a combat.

I'm pretty much looking at them from levels 1-7, and I just don't see a lot of... use. Much like the Bard, they can give a little here and there, it's not a lot. Especially with the limited number of powers and how PPs are so precious.
MindFlayerZoidberg
08-22-07, 12:48 AM I think you have to look at the powers in their discipline. It is true that the majority of their discipline powers don't put out a lot of damage, but their are plenty of powers a Seer or Nomad can have that will make them effective in combat. Their discipline list gives them a certain flavor that is interesting for certain situations or campaigns.

The Seers powers are good for espionage e.g. Escape Detection, Clairvoyant Sense, overall getting information about your enemy, but at 4th level, Remote Viewing can become very useful.

At 4th level the Nomad can use Fly, Psionic and become very useful as a Scout and access areas other characters can't. However, I think this choice really fits the flavor of a Planar Campaign. It is nice to be able to visit other planes at 7th level.

And finally, Egoist. 1/2 BAB you say, how could their self buffs be useful in combat? Well, interesting that all the distinct powers come at level 4, Metamorphosis makes them real effective real quick. At level 8: Metamorphosis+Overchannel+Metamorphic Transfer=10 Head Hydra Ownage. 10 bites + 14 melee (1d10+5). 3/day, 1d4 rounds between you get to use Fire Jet: 33d6 of damage. Did I also mention that you "retain any manifesting ability you had in your previous form". Then, all of the sudden, those self buffs become useful when your strength score is replaced by that of a Ten Headed Huge Magical Beast. So, for 10 minutes, you are a Psion Pyrohydra. All for 10 PP.

Incidentally, I am currently playing an egoist. . .that has Overchannel.
Callix
08-22-07, 07:43 AM Egoists are psionicists who can get their hands dirty. If they're ambushed on their own, they're screwed so much less than any other full caster/manifester (excluding PsyWar). As an added bonus, he can use a broad range of powers, dorjes and powerstones. Being able to choose between Hydra Slugfest and Ego Whip freely is a factor that is not to be underestimated. Metamorphosis is actually so good that almost any optimised psion who is not an egoist takes Expanded Knowledge (Metamorphosis).
The_Shaman
08-22-07, 08:32 AM Besides, an egoist can just get a PrC with medium or full BAB. I would also consider them somewhat of "combat mages," possessing a powerful arsenal of buffs that can get them to the level of melee warriors. As for HP... If you're that worried, Vigor can get you a serious amount of temporary HP for a relatively modest cost.
ck2001wendt
08-22-07, 09:34 AM I play a seer, and I've found that:

1. 80-90% of my powers come from the General List; and
2. Energy Missile only costs a feat.

Honestly Energy Missile (even the nerfed version) is so versatile that right now (9th-11th level) it is my go-to attack power, and by far the best attack option in my party. I will situational throw down a Crystal Shard, Ego Whip, Dispel Psionics, or Concussion Blast, but Energy Missile is most of what I need to get the job done.

The seer part of a seer comes at the end of the day, with whatever PP I've saved from the day's combats.
Bacris
08-22-07, 09:36 AM I think the problem is the stereotyping you're doing doesn't really fit.

Sure, a seer is focused on clairsentience, but not to the exclusion of all else. I could whip up a seer character that would be the first to fire off an energy ray or crystal shard - after using clairsentience to determine which enemy is the most important.

The egoist with vigor, biofeedback, and entangling ectoplasm can hamper that enemy and wade into battle. Psionic Body can give you a nice HP boost and, at 3rd level, let's be honest, a difference in BAB of +2 isn't the end of the world...

I think the point is break out of the mindset that the class defines the character. Sure, it gives a framework, but it by no means defines how the character must act :)
Rechan
08-22-07, 10:36 AM And finally, Egoist. 1/2 BAB you say, how could their self buffs be useful in combat? Well, interesting that all the distinct powers come at level 4, Metamorphosis makes them real effective real quick. At level 8: Metamorphosis+Overchannel+Metamorphic Transfer=10 Head Hydra Ownage. 10 bites + 14 melee (1d10+5). 3/day, 1d4 rounds between you get to use Fire Jet: 33d6 of damage. Did I also mention that you "retain any manifesting ability you had in your previous form". Then, all of the sudden, those self buffs become useful when your strength score is replaced by that of a Ten Headed Huge Magical Beast. So, for 10 minutes, you are a Psion Pyrohydra. All for 10 PP.

The problem with that scenario is that if you're playing from level 1, you're looking at the rest of the party saying "Just you guys wait! I'll be able to contribute in six levels!" Even if a mage gets fireball at level 5, he can still toss around some useful spells. So what's the Egoist doing until he gets it?

Being able to choose between Hydra Slugfest and Ego Whip freely is a factor that is not to be underestimated.

These are exclusive powers?
InkBlot
08-22-07, 10:44 AM Hydra slugfest is an egoist-only power, ego whip is not.

Egoists actually can run into melee at level 1. They'll be fine. They just have to put on a couple buffs first.

Vigor is the difference between a d4 hit die and a d10.

Inertial armor is generally better than real armor, but you could take Light Armor Proficiency anyway if you wanted. No arcane spell failure for psions.

Force screen is better than a real shield, but everybody is proficient with Darkwood shields (including heavy shields, even though most people only ever notice the darkwood buckler).

The Heavy Mace, or the Spear for reach, are light weapons nearly on par with martial weapons. The Heavy Mace does as much as a Longsword, it just crits less often.

At low levels, a high Strength can mean a lot more than a high BAB. Don't dump your Egoist's Strength stat. Grab that Heavy Mace with both hands and smash your enemy's skulls in.

edit: An Egoist, at 1st level, works with the psion/wilder list because his one discipline power isn't very usefull (why couldn't they get claws of the beast or something?) There is precisely one metric of awesome on the psion/wilder list of 1st level powers. When I play a psion, I usually find that I'm still taking new 1st level powers even when I could get 2nd or 3rd level powers.

Grease, entangling ectoplasm, telempathic projection, attraction, disable, energy ray, crystal shard, matter agitation, bolt, call to mind, know location and direction, hammer, inertial armor, force screen, sense link, skate, and vigor are all freaking awesome powers. At 1st level, unless you're a shaper or a telepath, it doesn't really matter what your discipline powers are.

Did you know that grease forces balance checks, and that any creature without 5 ranks in Balance is flat footed while balancing? Hello rogue!
Rechan
08-22-07, 10:53 AM All right. But we're also looking at the limitation of X number of powers. An egoist who's going to charge into combat needs those combat buff powers, and can't quite spare for Ego Whip and Ecto-entangle.

Let's take a 3rd level Egoist. If you're going to be Mr. Combat mage, you need Inertia Armor and likely Thicken Skin. Vigor and Biofeedback is practically a must, and Animal Affinity is going to give you that well needed Str. You've now only got two powers.

And by the time you're finished buffing, you're low on power points. You're only worth one fight in a day.
InkBlot
08-22-07, 10:59 AM Please check my edit. At very low levels, a psion's discipline doesn't matter much, unless he's a shaper or telepath.
Bacris
08-22-07, 11:00 AM All right. But we're also looking at the limitation of X number of powers. An egoist who's going to charge into combat needs those combat buff powers, and can't quite spare for Ego Whip and Ecto-entangle.

Let's take a 3rd level Egoist. If you're going to be Mr. Combat mage, you need Inertia Armor and likely Thicken Skin. Vigor and Biofeedback is practically a must, and Animal Affinity is going to give you that well needed Str. You've now only got two powers.

And by the time you're finished buffing, you're low on power points. You're only worth one fight in a day.

Needs Thicken Skin and Inertial Armor? Not likely... You can get a decent piece of light armor with no Armor Check penalty - Masterwork Studded Leather is +3 AC - good enough to not worry about Inertial Armor. Add on a masterwork buckler and you're at +4 AC.

Thicken Skin - wait until you can augment it. That +1 AC is probably better served by 2/- DR.

Now you only need 2 rounds of prep - one for Vigor, one for Biofeedback - and both will last you 3 minutes. Again, the point is to get out of the stereotyped mindset and think outside the box :)
Rechan
08-22-07, 11:11 AM Needs Thicken Skin and Inertial Armor? Not likely... You can get a decent piece of light armor with no Armor Check penalty - Masterwork Studded Leather is +3 AC - good enough to not worry about Inertial Armor. Add on a masterwork buckler and you're at +4 AC.

Why is armor check penalty bad? Unless you're doing something like tumbling or another dex-based skill, I don't see much of a concern there.

Thicken Skin - wait until you can augment it. That +1 AC is probably better served by 2/- DR.

You can augment Thicken Skin at level 3. Edit: No wait, it needs 3 points to spend on it.

And I'd rather not get hit than soak a measly two points of the damage. Because if I'm in the middle of combat and I get hit for 8, there goes my vigor.
Bukowski
08-22-07, 12:00 PM Seers are my favorite psions to play... their information-gathering abilities exceed any other support character's party-helping. I love the seer's full range of lvl 2 discipline powers... object reading and sensitivity to psychic impressions are very underrated. Plus, combining clairvoyant sense with the burrowing power feat is a real hoot.

As for their higher lvl discipline powers:
1) fate of one is a real lifesaver in a game based on d20 rolls... it's pretty much my refusal to fail a saving throw power.
2) hypercognition absolutely rocks, as long as you have a DM who can handle you out-intelligencing his bad guys.
3) metafaculty is useful when you absolutely need to recon a high-level warded target, but is underpowered compared to most of the other 9th-level discipline powers.
Bacris
08-22-07, 01:06 PM Why is armor check penalty bad? Unless you're doing something like tumbling or another dex-based skill, I don't see much of a concern there.

Because you're not proficient in armor as a psion - so Armor Check Penalty applies to attack rolls, as well.
Rageheart
08-22-07, 01:59 PM My current Psion is a Nomad Battlefield-Controller.

at 4th Level I contribute by dropping foes into a 20' deep pit via Foxhole, limiting foes movements with Entangling Ectoplasm and last but not least with my decent movement and high as heck init bonus a favorite tactic has become moving 5' from an BBEG and then Dimension Swapping with our frontliner who can then take a 5' step and full attack.

... yeah. I'm popular. :D
MindFlayerZoidberg
08-22-07, 02:02 PM I think it would be a little redundant if all the discipline powers for each type of Psion were all melee oriented. I agree that the psion/wilder powers give enough versatility to be effective in combat and to survive.

But even if that isn't enough, maybe just have a 1st level Dorje, costs 750 GP, 50 charges, and a few power stones that will help in certain situations. Saves on PP too. A Dorje with Disable is good in combat and non-combat situations. Your fellow party members will think you are very useful when you zap a few enemies who aren't moving because they think they are at 0 HP. Nice team effort bonding time too, because they can all come up together, and beat the crap out of the guy, and then go on to the next one. :)
Rechan
08-22-07, 02:58 PM My current Psion is a Nomad Battlefield-Controller.

at 4th Level I contribute by dropping foes into a 20' deep pit via Foxhole, limiting foes movements with Entangling Ectoplasm and last but not least with my decent movement and high as heck init bonus a favorite tactic has become moving 5' from an BBEG and then Dimension Swapping with our frontliner who can then take a 5' step and full attack.

Where is Foxhole? It's not in Complete.
Rageheart
08-22-07, 03:16 PM Untapped Potential :D
Nephlite
08-22-07, 03:50 PM Why is armor check penalty bad? Unless you're doing something like tumbling or another dex-based skill, I don't see much of a concern there.

You can augment Thicken Skin at level 3. Edit: No wait, it needs 3 points to spend on it.

And I'd rather not get hit than soak a measly two points of the damage. Because if I'm in the middle of combat and I get hit for 8, there goes my vigor.

Well, some of your vigor unless you only had 8 left (took 2 before asnd had only 10?). If the enemy deals 8 -2=6 damage. Assuming level 2 you still have vigor of 4 (if used 2 pp).

Remember eventually: you will be hit: it is better to lower that amount.

The only way to ensure not being hit often is AC 15 + 1.5 level: you'd need like 20 + 1.5 Level to not being hit almost ever.

At level 2, you only have + 4 from IA power. But 2 hrs only requiring recast.
Assuming 14 Dex: AC 16.
Nice, but not enough assuming CR= Party level. Weaker enemies will miss, but than they would likely not deal much with Biofeedback.

Granted, Biofeedback is PP used almost every battle. however, you are saving PP by not manifesting Inertial Armor so it evens out.
CrimsonDeath
08-22-07, 05:04 PM Egoists are psionicists who can get their hands dirty. If they're ambushed on their own, they're screwed so much less than any other full caster/manifester (excluding PsyWar).
An Egoist may be better equipped to overcome any encounter on their own, but a Nomad can simply leave. (In fact, my Nomad was a colossal coward, and that was his preferred solution when he was ambushed alone. Of course, he was seldom alone, so it didn't come up much.)
Lycanthromancer
08-22-07, 05:13 PM How did you get him to colossal size? Metamorphosis and expansion?
ornitholestes
08-25-07, 01:43 PM It seems to me that the warforged might be a great race for an egoist. He can take adamantine body as his starting feet and gain the defensive benefit of full plate (with some damage reduction). The best part is, while adamantine body penalizes skills as if it had an Armor Check Penalty, the penalty is not labeled as such and therefore doesn't affect the warforged's melee attack (basically the forged is always proficient with his own skin). As an added plus, with expanded knowledge, he can later take Psionic Repair damage and heal himself (and any other warforged companions).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rechan 08-21-07, 11:35 PM	Okay. I get that Kineticists are the blasters, Shapers are summoners and second-hand blasters. Telepaths are good anti-buffers - they hamper the enemy, giving them lots of negatives and disabling effects. But what role do the Nomad, Seer and Egoist fill? The Nomad and Seer seem fine outside of combat, but inside of combat... Nomads really are a lot of 'get me out of here', not doing anything to the enemy. Seers are diviners that... don't do much in the middle of a fight. And Egoists can enhance their bodies, but that's pretty like a self-buffing wizard. He can puff himself up, but he's... still got a wizard's BAB and a d4 HD. Until he hits 7th level and can polymorph himself, what can he Do? So what do they GIVE to a party?
Vharuck 08-21-07, 11:43 PM	Nomads are tactical characters in battle. They don't usually dish out the damage or buff the others; they make sure that their teammates are in the most advantageous positions or can reach said positions, while their enemies are at a disadvantage. Seers can affect combat more than any other psion. Why? Their powers come before the encounter, and shape the circumstances of the encounter. Surprised by a demon? Nope. The psion saw it coming a mile away and now everyone has cold iron weapons (the psion even has cold iron bolts for good measure!). Also, the rogue bought a scroll of the exact right spell to use to beat the next obstacle with no effort, because he was told what to buy. Egoists... umm... I'd say that they could focus on combat. Which makes them useful, since they can melee (or ranged) while also having a few utility and damage powers.
Novem 08-21-07, 11:51 PM	Like a Wizard, a Psion who tries can be just about anything (although he generally has to try harder). Just because you're an Egoist doesn't mean you only take Psychometabolism powers, the Psion/Wilder list is full of blasting powers, etc. We'll take this case-by-case: A Seer is, like you said, a Diviner. To find out what it does for a party, ask yourself: What does a Diviner do? Like a Diviner, he probably won't be using all Clairsentience powers in combat (though they can be useful vs. hidden opponents and the like), but more of the general list of Psion/Wilder powers. Crystal Shard is my favorite. An Egoist can be like a Cleric or Bard- buffs for himself and the party, with a melee role provided by touch attacks (theoretically, an Egoist would first buff himself to make up for poor HD and BAB). A Nomad- well, think Nightcrawler. Add in temporal stuff, and, as you said, non-Combat usefulness, and non-Psychoportation powers, and you're golden. While not as flexible as the Wizard, a Psion has no one role in a party, beyond "Mage".
Rechan 08-22-07, 12:36 AM	A Seer is, like you said, a Diviner. To find out what it does for a party, ask yourself: What does a Diviner do? Like a Diviner, he probably won't be using all Clairsentience powers in combat (though they can be useful vs. hidden opponents and the like), but more of the general list of Psion/Wilder powers. Crystal Shard is my favorite. Well in all honesty I don't see Diviners doing a lot for a party unless they need ANSWERS to something. I see them pretty much standing on the sidelines going "Not in the face" when the swords start swinging. They can cast a boom or a buff spell here or there, but their focus in something out-of-combat limits them in it. An Egoist can be like a Cleric or Bard- buffs for himself and the party, with a melee role provided by touch attacks (theoretically, an Egoist would first buff himself to make up for poor HD and BAB). Which powers are effective for someone Else? Sure, he could function as a backup healer afterwards with Empathic Transfer and Body Adjustment, but those are a lot of power points right there, and you'd have to do that after a combat. I'm pretty much looking at them from levels 1-7, and I just don't see a lot of... use. Much like the Bard, they can give a little here and there, it's not a lot. Especially with the limited number of powers and how PPs are so precious.
MindFlayerZoidberg 08-22-07, 12:48 AM	I think you have to look at the powers in their discipline. It is true that the majority of their discipline powers don't put out a lot of damage, but their are plenty of powers a Seer or Nomad can have that will make them effective in combat. Their discipline list gives them a certain flavor that is interesting for certain situations or campaigns. The Seers powers are good for espionage e.g. Escape Detection, Clairvoyant Sense, overall getting information about your enemy, but at 4th level, Remote Viewing can become very useful. At 4th level the Nomad can use Fly, Psionic and become very useful as a Scout and access areas other characters can't. However, I think this choice really fits the flavor of a Planar Campaign. It is nice to be able to visit other planes at 7th level. And finally, Egoist. 1/2 BAB you say, how could their self buffs be useful in combat? Well, interesting that all the distinct powers come at level 4, Metamorphosis makes them real effective real quick. At level 8: Metamorphosis+Overchannel+Metamorphic Transfer=10 Head Hydra Ownage. 10 bites + 14 melee (1d10+5). 3/day, 1d4 rounds between you get to use Fire Jet: 33d6 of damage. Did I also mention that you "retain any manifesting ability you had in your previous form". Then, all of the sudden, those self buffs become useful when your strength score is replaced by that of a Ten Headed Huge Magical Beast. So, for 10 minutes, you are a Psion Pyrohydra. All for 10 PP. Incidentally, I am currently playing an egoist. . .that has Overchannel.
Callix 08-22-07, 07:43 AM	Egoists are psionicists who can get their hands dirty. If they're ambushed on their own, they're screwed so much less than any other full caster/manifester (excluding PsyWar). As an added bonus, he can use a broad range of powers, dorjes and powerstones. Being able to choose between Hydra Slugfest and Ego Whip freely is a factor that is not to be underestimated. Metamorphosis is actually so good that almost any optimised psion who is not an egoist takes Expanded Knowledge (Metamorphosis).
The_Shaman 08-22-07, 08:32 AM	Besides, an egoist can just get a PrC with medium or full BAB. I would also consider them somewhat of "combat mages," possessing a powerful arsenal of buffs that can get them to the level of melee warriors. As for HP... If you're that worried, Vigor can get you a serious amount of temporary HP for a relatively modest cost.
ck2001wendt 08-22-07, 09:34 AM	I play a seer, and I've found that: 1. 80-90% of my powers come from the General List; and 2. Energy Missile only costs a feat. Honestly Energy Missile (even the nerfed version) is so versatile that right now (9th-11th level) it is my go-to attack power, and by far the best attack option in my party. I will situational throw down a Crystal Shard, Ego Whip, Dispel Psionics, or Concussion Blast, but Energy Missile is most of what I need to get the job done. The seer part of a seer comes at the end of the day, with whatever PP I've saved from the day's combats.
Bacris 08-22-07, 09:36 AM	I think the problem is the stereotyping you're doing doesn't really fit. Sure, a seer is focused on clairsentience, but not to the exclusion of all else. I could whip up a seer character that would be the first to fire off an energy ray or crystal shard - after using clairsentience to determine which enemy is the most important. The egoist with vigor, biofeedback, and entangling ectoplasm can hamper that enemy and wade into battle. Psionic Body can give you a nice HP boost and, at 3rd level, let's be honest, a difference in BAB of +2 isn't the end of the world... I think the point is break out of the mindset that the class defines the character. Sure, it gives a framework, but it by no means defines how the character must act :)
Rechan 08-22-07, 10:36 AM	And finally, Egoist. 1/2 BAB you say, how could their self buffs be useful in combat? Well, interesting that all the distinct powers come at level 4, Metamorphosis makes them real effective real quick. At level 8: Metamorphosis+Overchannel+Metamorphic Transfer=10 Head Hydra Ownage. 10 bites + 14 melee (1d10+5). 3/day, 1d4 rounds between you get to use Fire Jet: 33d6 of damage. Did I also mention that you "retain any manifesting ability you had in your previous form". Then, all of the sudden, those self buffs become useful when your strength score is replaced by that of a Ten Headed Huge Magical Beast. So, for 10 minutes, you are a Psion Pyrohydra. All for 10 PP. The problem with that scenario is that if you're playing from level 1, you're looking at the rest of the party saying "Just you guys wait! I'll be able to contribute in six levels!" Even if a mage gets fireball at level 5, he can still toss around some useful spells. So what's the Egoist doing until he gets it? Being able to choose between Hydra Slugfest and Ego Whip freely is a factor that is not to be underestimated. These are exclusive powers?
InkBlot 08-22-07, 10:44 AM	Hydra slugfest is an egoist-only power, ego whip is not. Egoists actually can run into melee at level 1. They'll be fine. They just have to put on a couple buffs first. Vigor is the difference between a d4 hit die and a d10. Inertial armor is generally better than real armor, but you could take Light Armor Proficiency anyway if you wanted. No arcane spell failure for psions. Force screen is better than a real shield, but everybody is proficient with Darkwood shields (including heavy shields, even though most people only ever notice the darkwood buckler). The Heavy Mace, or the Spear for reach, are light weapons nearly on par with martial weapons. The Heavy Mace does as much as a Longsword, it just crits less often. At low levels, a high Strength can mean a lot more than a high BAB. Don't dump your Egoist's Strength stat. Grab that Heavy Mace with both hands and smash your enemy's skulls in. edit: An Egoist, at 1st level, works with the psion/wilder list because his one discipline power isn't very usefull (why couldn't they get claws of the beast or something?) There is precisely one metric of awesome on the psion/wilder list of 1st level powers. When I play a psion, I usually find that I'm still taking new 1st level powers even when I could get 2nd or 3rd level powers. Grease, entangling ectoplasm, telempathic projection, attraction, disable, energy ray, crystal shard, matter agitation, bolt, call to mind, know location and direction, hammer, inertial armor, force screen, sense link, skate, and vigor are all freaking awesome powers. At 1st level, unless you're a shaper or a telepath, it doesn't really matter what your discipline powers are. Did you know that grease forces balance checks, and that any creature without 5 ranks in Balance is flat footed while balancing? Hello rogue!
Rechan 08-22-07, 10:53 AM	All right. But we're also looking at the limitation of X number of powers. An egoist who's going to charge into combat needs those combat buff powers, and can't quite spare for Ego Whip and Ecto-entangle. Let's take a 3rd level Egoist. If you're going to be Mr. Combat mage, you need Inertia Armor and likely Thicken Skin. Vigor and Biofeedback is practically a must, and Animal Affinity is going to give you that well needed Str. You've now only got two powers. And by the time you're finished buffing, you're low on power points. You're only worth one fight in a day.
InkBlot 08-22-07, 10:59 AM	Please check my edit. At very low levels, a psion's discipline doesn't matter much, unless he's a shaper or telepath.
Bacris 08-22-07, 11:00 AM	All right. But we're also looking at the limitation of X number of powers. An egoist who's going to charge into combat needs those combat buff powers, and can't quite spare for Ego Whip and Ecto-entangle. Let's take a 3rd level Egoist. If you're going to be Mr. Combat mage, you need Inertia Armor and likely Thicken Skin. Vigor and Biofeedback is practically a must, and Animal Affinity is going to give you that well needed Str. You've now only got two powers. And by the time you're finished buffing, you're low on power points. You're only worth one fight in a day. Needs Thicken Skin and Inertial Armor? Not likely... You can get a decent piece of light armor with no Armor Check penalty - Masterwork Studded Leather is +3 AC - good enough to not worry about Inertial Armor. Add on a masterwork buckler and you're at +4 AC. Thicken Skin - wait until you can augment it. That +1 AC is probably better served by 2/- DR. Now you only need 2 rounds of prep - one for Vigor, one for Biofeedback - and both will last you 3 minutes. Again, the point is to get out of the stereotyped mindset and think outside the box :)
Rechan 08-22-07, 11:11 AM	Needs Thicken Skin and Inertial Armor? Not likely... You can get a decent piece of light armor with no Armor Check penalty - Masterwork Studded Leather is +3 AC - good enough to not worry about Inertial Armor. Add on a masterwork buckler and you're at +4 AC. Why is armor check penalty bad? Unless you're doing something like tumbling or another dex-based skill, I don't see much of a concern there. Thicken Skin - wait until you can augment it. That +1 AC is probably better served by 2/- DR. You can augment Thicken Skin at level 3. Edit: No wait, it needs 3 points to spend on it. And I'd rather not get hit than soak a measly two points of the damage. Because if I'm in the middle of combat and I get hit for 8, there goes my vigor.
Bukowski 08-22-07, 12:00 PM	Seers are my favorite psions to play... their information-gathering abilities exceed any other support character's party-helping. I love the seer's full range of lvl 2 discipline powers... object reading and sensitivity to psychic impressions are very underrated. Plus, combining clairvoyant sense with the burrowing power feat is a real hoot. As for their higher lvl discipline powers: 1) fate of one is a real lifesaver in a game based on d20 rolls... it's pretty much my refusal to fail a saving throw power. 2) hypercognition absolutely rocks, as long as you have a DM who can handle you out-intelligencing his bad guys. 3) metafaculty is useful when you absolutely need to recon a high-level warded target, but is underpowered compared to most of the other 9th-level discipline powers.
Bacris 08-22-07, 01:06 PM	Why is armor check penalty bad? Unless you're doing something like tumbling or another dex-based skill, I don't see much of a concern there. Because you're not proficient in armor as a psion - so Armor Check Penalty applies to attack rolls, as well.
Rageheart 08-22-07, 01:59 PM	My current Psion is a Nomad Battlefield-Controller. at 4th Level I contribute by dropping foes into a 20' deep pit via Foxhole, limiting foes movements with Entangling Ectoplasm and last but not least with my decent movement and high as heck init bonus a favorite tactic has become moving 5' from an BBEG and then Dimension Swapping with our frontliner who can then take a 5' step and full attack. ... yeah. I'm popular. :D
MindFlayerZoidberg 08-22-07, 02:02 PM	I think it would be a little redundant if all the discipline powers for each type of Psion were all melee oriented. I agree that the psion/wilder powers give enough versatility to be effective in combat and to survive. But even if that isn't enough, maybe just have a 1st level Dorje, costs 750 GP, 50 charges, and a few power stones that will help in certain situations. Saves on PP too. A Dorje with Disable is good in combat and non-combat situations. Your fellow party members will think you are very useful when you zap a few enemies who aren't moving because they think they are at 0 HP. Nice team effort bonding time too, because they can all come up together, and beat the crap out of the guy, and then go on to the next one. :)
Rechan 08-22-07, 02:58 PM	My current Psion is a Nomad Battlefield-Controller. at 4th Level I contribute by dropping foes into a 20' deep pit via Foxhole, limiting foes movements with Entangling Ectoplasm and last but not least with my decent movement and high as heck init bonus a favorite tactic has become moving 5' from an BBEG and then Dimension Swapping with our frontliner who can then take a 5' step and full attack. Where is Foxhole? It's not in Complete.
Rageheart 08-22-07, 03:16 PM	Untapped Potential :D
Nephlite 08-22-07, 03:50 PM	Why is armor check penalty bad? Unless you're doing something like tumbling or another dex-based skill, I don't see much of a concern there. You can augment Thicken Skin at level 3. Edit: No wait, it needs 3 points to spend on it. And I'd rather not get hit than soak a measly two points of the damage. Because if I'm in the middle of combat and I get hit for 8, there goes my vigor. Well, some of your vigor unless you only had 8 left (took 2 before asnd had only 10?). If the enemy deals 8 -2=6 damage. Assuming level 2 you still have vigor of 4 (if used 2 pp). Remember eventually: you will be hit: it is better to lower that amount. The only way to ensure not being hit often is AC 15 + 1.5 level: you'd need like 20 + 1.5 Level to not being hit almost ever. At level 2, you only have + 4 from IA power. But 2 hrs only requiring recast. Assuming 14 Dex: AC 16. Nice, but not enough assuming CR= Party level. Weaker enemies will miss, but than they would likely not deal much with Biofeedback. Granted, Biofeedback is PP used almost every battle. however, you are saving PP by not manifesting Inertial Armor so it evens out.
CrimsonDeath 08-22-07, 05:04 PM	Egoists are psionicists who can get their hands dirty. If they're ambushed on their own, they're screwed so much less than any other full caster/manifester (excluding PsyWar). An Egoist may be better equipped to overcome any encounter on their own, but a Nomad can simply leave. (In fact, my Nomad was a colossal coward, and that was his preferred solution when he was ambushed alone. Of course, he was seldom alone, so it didn't come up much.)
Lycanthromancer 08-22-07, 05:13 PM	How did you get him to colossal size? Metamorphosis and expansion?
ornitholestes 08-25-07, 01:43 PM	It seems to me that the warforged might be a great race for an egoist. He can take adamantine body as his starting feet and gain the defensive benefit of full plate (with some damage reduction). The best part is, while adamantine body penalizes skills as if it had an Armor Check Penalty, the penalty is not labeled as such and therefore doesn't affect the warforged's melee attack (basically the forged is always proficient with his own skin). As an added plus, with expanded knowledge, he can later take Psionic Repair damage and heal himself (and any other warforged companions).