Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kri69 08-22-07, 11:50 PM	My friends and I are starting a campaign and I’m wondering what would be better a wizard or a Psion? We will most likely have a rouge healing cleric and fighter.
AdventChild 08-22-07, 11:54 PM	it all depends what role you wish to do, so be more specific what exactly you would like to do and i am sure people here will be able to assist you better.
Vharuck 08-22-07, 11:55 PM	Which do you find more fun?
AntiDjinn 08-22-07, 11:58 PM	Better at what and for what type of party role? Better at dishing out damage (in a short segment of time vs. spread out over a day)? Better at having more options for a given situation? If you just want to know which is the better mechanic then psionics with its get-what-you-pay-for point system trounces the pseudo-Vancian system used by wizards. But that, of course, is an issue of psionics vs. arcane, not just the psion vs. the wizard.
sijigs 08-23-07, 12:52 AM	Gee - another apples vs oranges question. "Because it's orange.." "Because it's red.." Just play and see how you go... ;)
GawainBS 08-23-07, 06:27 AM	Wasn't the consensus that Wizards were mechanicly better (to the point of gamebreaking imbalanced) than Psions?
Fafnir 08-23-07, 07:12 AM	Wasn't the consensus that Wizards were mechanicly better (to the point of gamebreaking imbalanced) than Psions? Both. The Vancian mechanics are worse in execution, but detract nothing from the world-shattering power of the Wizard.
GawainBS 08-23-07, 07:13 AM	I prefer the PP method: no more guessing what will be useful tomorrow. As far as I know, the lvl 9 Spells are a lot better than the level 9 Powers, which are also awesome on themselves.
DM Zoc 08-23-07, 07:28 AM	If you're new to the game, or just to casters (you gave no information to indicate one way or the other), then I highly suggest the wizard. (Actually, I highly suggest the sorcerer, but that's another matter all together.) Psions tend to drain themselves pretty quickly if the DM throws more than 4 encounters per day at you. If you know the DM will only throw one or two encounters at you in a given day, then Psions are always at their best. Wizards almost never run out of spells, past level 5 or so (and there are a few feats you can take to guarantee you never run out of spells).
Mesiolan 08-23-07, 07:45 AM	Which feats allow a wizard to NEVER run out of spells? Are you referring to reserve feats (not allowed in our campaign)? Thank you!
Bacris 08-23-07, 09:19 AM	If you're new to the game, or just to casters (you gave no information to indicate one way or the other), then I highly suggest the wizard. (Actually, I highly suggest the sorcerer, but that's another matter all together.) Actually, I'm going to have to disagree with this. If you're new to the game and/or casters in general, psions have simpler rules compared to the slot-based arcane mechanic.
GawainBS 08-23-07, 09:21 AM	One "practical" point against Psions is the additional time devouted to bookkeeping: calculate how many PP you spend, then augmentations and then deducting it from your total, as opposed to "tagging off" a slot. I prefer Psions, because I don't like the "upfront memorizing" of Wizards, but the added calculations might put off some groups.
Kri69 08-23-07, 09:28 AM	I guess what I’m asking is which one will allow me to help the party at a level and at higher levels for almost ant situation
GawainBS 08-23-07, 09:30 AM	They're about equal, allthough I only have experience with a Wizard.
Bacris 08-23-07, 09:30 AM	I guess what I’m asking is which one will allow me to help the party at a level and at higher levels for almost ant situation A shaper with Minor Creation, Imprint Stone and max ranks in Use Psionic Device can do damn near anything... but given the serious wealth of spells available in all the different supplements, wizards provide the best in "utility" options, much as it pains me to say it.
Nirid 08-23-07, 11:10 AM	Yes there are more spells out, but that's simply because magic is a more popular system. Many spells can easily be translated to powers if you want to shift the campaign to a more psionic bent. And when you get down to it the potential wealth of spells is a wizard’s real power. You can choose to specialize, but unless you take one of the variants you hurt yourself more then anything by loosing the spells from that school. Wizards- A lot of potential power and a limited form of play time flex if you want to leave slots unopened. But it's a lot of guess work on some spells (hence leaving slots open, but losing power while they are unfilled), especially utility type spells. And wizards do run out of spells if they are using utility and buff spells. At higher levels it is not that your available spells are all expended, just all the spells available are either capped much lower then your max or not relevant to what you need. You can often do something with what you have but it's not always the ideal. Psions- There pool of potential is much smaller, but thanks to the way many powers work they can pull double duty. The energy spells are the best example of this. Basically psions get 4 potential spells in one power. Some powers can also augment in ways that would have to be a different spell to a regular caster as well. The downside if they don't get to automatically scale the way spells do. This is good and bad. It means you almost always have to pay the cost of a max level power to get the appropriate effect. You can skimp on some powers, but those are few and far between. It's also easy to simply spend and spend till you have nothing left. Conservation is key for psions, unless you want to leave a smoking crater then take a nap. The upside of the augment system is that no level of power is wasted. Each power you take can scale all the way up and remain relevant. Energy ray can do 20d6 of damage for the right cost despite the fact it's a level one power known. The only other drawback is the forced pseudo-specialization in the form of disciplines. It means certain types of powers may be much harder for a psion to acquire then a generalist wizard requiring a feat at least. Over all I say wizards have the most support and material available but psions are definitely using the better system. If you want to play an arcane caster try sorcerer first as their learning curve is a little easier once you grasp spell selection. If you like psions, well I'm partial to Nomads and Shapers myself.
Tempest Stormwind 08-23-07, 11:39 AM	One "practical" point against Psions is the additional time devouted to bookkeeping: calculate how many PP you spend, then augmentations and then deducting it from your total, as opposed to "tagging off" a slot. I prefer Psions, because I don't like the "upfront memorizing" of Wizards, but the added calculations might put off some groups. Okay, this is just silly. First, having played both, the psion is easily the one with less accounting. I don't have a billion powers to choose between every day, I don't have to manage spellbook pages, I don't need to track down specific costly material components, I don't need to account for new spells out of every treasure hoard. I just pick my level-up powers (from a small list) and that's that. Second, if subtraction takes too long for you, consider keeping a running TOTAL of power points used. So long as it doesn't exceed your maximum, you're fine. I'm sorry, I'm just not seeing how a psion could ever involve less calculation than a wizard.
GawainBS 08-23-07, 11:44 AM	I'm just pointing out some objections players might hold against them. I know some of my players would waste lots of ingame time with it. The wizard player always has his spells prepared when the session starts and he has the required components, so we hardly loose time with him. This might be purely a player issue, but completly dismissing it seems a bit naïeve, unless you're dealing with experienced players.
Tempest Stormwind 08-23-07, 11:53 AM	It certainly seems like you're comparing an experienced wizard player to a neophyte psion, though. Not to mention you aren't considering in-game preparation.
Nirid 08-23-07, 11:55 AM	Second, if subtraction takes too long for you, consider keeping a running TOTAL of power points used. So long as it doesn't exceed your maximum, you're fine. That is assuming addition will be easier for them.
GawainBS 08-23-07, 11:56 AM	To be honest, I was comparing the guy who always plays wizards and the guy who's itching to play psionics. We almost never loose time on the wizardsguy's turn, while the turn of wannabe-psion takes ages and ages, to the point that we sometimes just skip him. So I just MIGHT be extrapolating both player's tendencies to their preferred classes. I stand corrected then.
AntiDjinn 08-23-07, 12:25 PM	As previously noted, the mage's advantage is the huge spell selection, thought this depends on which books the DM is allowing. Between the PHB, PHB II, Spell Compendium, Completes, Races of X, terrain books, and setting-specific material the volume vs. what is available for psionics (1 & 1/2 books, basically) is staggering. Given that with any very large population, elements will tend to fall on a bell curve (for every Arcane Mark, there is also Magic Missile, both first level but on opposite tails of the curve) it is possible to cherry pick your spells so that only the top 5% show up on your list. To pick one example: Power Word Pain. It is the absolute poster child for uber damage but with a clunky mechanic that makes it a headache for the DM. It can affect any living creature with 100 hit points or less, no save. It can do up to 16d6 to a single opponent. (Would any of the people who keep showing up in the myth thread with claims of psionics being overpowered show me a first level power that can deliver this much cheese when manifest at first level?) It does 1d6 per round, but the duration is randomly rolled with the number of dice (1, 2, or 4d4) being determined by the subject's current hit points when you cast. This means the DM either has to tell you the opponent's hits or he has to make this roll himself and then keep track of the on-going damage himself. Psionics has nothing that can touch this damage output at the same character levels, but nothing that will cause this much round to round bookkeeping either. Wings of Cover has been discussed extensively on the spell boards. Probably outside of the current topic because it is sorcerer-only and thus not a wizard issue. It greatly exceeds the parameters of Damp Power. And this list can go on and on: Wraithstrike, Ray Deflection (only 4th level, works for many rounds, any ray regardless of level automatically misses), Ruby Ray of Reversal, all those damned orb spells, Brilliant Blade, etc. The first truism of D&D 3.5 is that nothing is more powerful than a prepared wizard. If he knows what to expect and has had time to hit the books and gather his materials, then he is nigh-unbeatable. He will select spells that do exactly what he needs and will have an answer for whatever his foe can dish out. The second truism, however, is that nothing is more pathetic than an unprepared wizard. If you catch him while he has a headful of the wrong spells or doesn't have his materials handy then you can make short work of him (unless he has the right Contingency up, in which case he wasn't unprepared). The psion doesn't benefit/suffer from these highs and lows of power; as long as he has points he is more or less equally prepared/unprepared at any given moment.
Jaid 08-23-07, 12:37 PM	funny... i remember one game where the wizards spent the entire game session picking out his spells, and deciding what scrolls he wanted... boy, that was sure fun :rolleyes: honestly, the wizard either picks his spells daily based on the challenges he expects to face, or he's wasting his potential and you may as well play a sorceror.
GawainBS 08-23-07, 12:40 PM	I can come up just as easily with a story about easily confused and hard-to-keep-track Psionics players, but let's face it: mostly this boils down to the player. I even got a player that manages to waste 15 minutes full attacking at lvl 6.
InkBlot 08-23-07, 01:11 PM	I find spell slots easier to track than power points. However, preparing spells more than makes up for that. When I play a wizard, I always leave between 1/3 and 1/2 of my spell slots unprepared, both so I can fill them in later when I know what I need* and so that I don't take forever preparing spells. Most of the spells I prepare in the morning are general-case spells, like magic missle or unseen servant. *Yes, you can do this. See the Player's Handbook, page 178, the second paragraph under "Spell Selection and Preparation."
Kri69 08-23-07, 02:00 PM	well thanks thi has been a big help