Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JulesCARV 03-06-07, 01:15 PM	All sorcerers, wizards, and travel domain clerics get fly sooner than a nomad. By the time a nomad gets fly, an egoist has had ectoplasmic form for two levels for slow flight, and at 7th level -- when a nomad gets fly -- can metamorphose into a harpy to be able to fly faster than a nomad too. Level 7 shapers can by this point create flying astral constructs with a light load of 266 pounds. Druids have been able to wild shape into eagles for two levels. Even clerics without the travel domain can air walk by level seven. Heck, if a DM allows avariels, wizards can fly by level 3 and bards or sorcerers by level 4 with alter self, and if raptorans are allowed but not avariels, even bards can fly a bit by level 5 (maybe). Psychic warriors can have ectoplasmic form at level 7 too, for a bit of slow flight. Now, not all of this is as good as a nomad's flight. Some are slower. Some are less maneuverable. Some don't last as long. A shaper's flying astral construct is all three, in fact. Certainly, a cleric with air walk would be disappointed if he tried to use it in combat to try to imitate a nomad. However, the fact remains that the nomad's reward for being in the discipline is getting something almost as good (range personal rather than touch) as what wizards and sorcerers get, so long as a wizard hasn't prohibited transmutation (and what wizard does prohibit transmutation?), two levels later than a wizard and a level later than a sorcerer. I don't think it would be bad if fly were, say, a psion/wilder 4 power. Having it by a nomad 4 power, weaker than the arcane or travel domain version with its "personal" range, when nomads are supposed to be the masters of mobility, seems like a bit of a disappointing thought. Thoughts?
Equiv 03-06-07, 01:45 PM	I too, have noticed this, and agree with you wholeheartedly that it needs changing. I've been using a houserule for this since I started using psionics, and there have been no problems. Part of the reason for this is that most of my campaigns rarely get to 8th level, so if we ever want to really play a nomad as a nomad, this has to be done, but I assume that as you get higher up in levels, it matters less and less.
Khan the Destroyer 03-06-07, 05:11 PM	Are you insane in the membrane? A nomad would be crazy broken if he had fly at 5th level.
Red12 03-06-07, 05:32 PM	I certainly don't think it would be crazy broken. It would definately be more powerful- top teir 3rd level power. (really, if there was a 3.5 level, it would be here). However, I agree that they should get it earlier than 4th. I'd let somebody take it for 3rd level if they asked, but no one has wanted to play a nomad in my game as of yet.
Celsun 03-07-07, 07:24 AM	A nomad with psionic fly as a 3rd level power could manifest it in every encounter as soon as he's 5th level. That may be a bit overpowered in some campaigns.
KurenaiYami 03-07-07, 07:27 AM	They just dislike the idea of low-level PCs having access to flight for any extended period of time or with any regularity, though I really don't see the harm in it. The only time flight ever bothered me was when a PC tried to fly in through a window of a tower in the Red Hand of Doom, and that's only because I wasn't sure if the tower HAD a window. Those aren't normally listed as entrances in the premade adventures...
Kresalak 03-07-07, 07:52 AM	Are you insane in the membrane? A nomad would be crazy broken if he had fly at 5th level. Err, what? Fly isn't broken at any level. The main power of flight is the ability to completely avoid monsters that don't have ranged attacks, but that doesn't matter. That ability only exists in exterior areas without significant cover. The only monsters that both lack the intelligence to take cover and wait for Fly to end AND lack a method to attack flying people are animals, zombies, skeletons, and dire animals. But in these situations, fly can be replicated by having a good movement speed and a bow. Plus, flight is available from level 3 to anyone who cares, and that version lasts 100 times as long.
The_Ditto 03-07-07, 10:46 AM	"When in doubt ... Augment!" Would this work as a house-ruled version of Fly, Psionic? Fly, Psionic Psychoportation Level: Nomad 3 Display: Auditory Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 1 round/level (D) Power Points: 5 You can fly at a speed of 30 feet (or 20 feet if you wear medium or heavy armor, or you carry a medium or heavy load). You can ascend at half speed and descend at double speed, and your maneuverability is good. Using this power requires only as much concentration as walking, so you can attack or manifest powers normally. You can charge but not run, and you cannot carry aloft more weight than your maximum load, plus any armor you wear. Should the power's duration expire while you are still aloft, you float downward 60 feet per round for 1d6 rounds. If you reach the ground in that amount of time, you land safely. If not, you fall the rest of the distance, taking 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet of fall. Since dispelling a power effectively ends it, you also descend in this way if it is dispelled, but not if it is negated by an antipsionic field. Augment: You can augment this power in one or more of the following ways. 1. If you spend 2 additional power points, this power's duration becomes 1 minute/level. 2. If you spend 4 additional power points, this power's duration becomes 10 minutes/level. 3. If you spend 6 additional power points, this power's duration becomes 1 hour/level. In addition, for every 2 additional power points you spend to achieve any of these effects, your fly speed increases by +10 ft. Original texts .. just for reference: Fly, Psionic Psychoportation Level: Nomad 4 Display: Auditory Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 1 min./level (D) Power Points: 7 As the fly spell, except as noted here. Fly Transmutation Level: Sor/Wiz 3, Travel 3 Components: V, S, F/DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Creature touched Duration: 1 min./level Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) The subject can fly at a speed of 60 feet (or 40 feet if it wears medium or heavy armor, or if it carries a medium or heavy load). It can ascend at half speed and descend at double speed, and its maneuverability is good. Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking, so the subject can attack or cast spells normally. The subject of a fly spell can charge but not run, and it cannot carry aloft more weight than its maximum load, plus any armor it wears. Should the spell duration expire while the subject is still aloft, the magic fails slowly. The subject floats downward 60 feet per round for 1d6 rounds. If it reaches the ground in that amount of time, it lands safely. If not, it falls the rest of the distance, taking 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet of fall. Since dispelling a spell effectively ends it, the subject also descends in this way if the fly spell is dispelled, but not if it is negated by an antimagic field. Arcane Focus: A wing feather from any bird. Comparisons: 5th level Character: Nomad: Fly 30 ft (good), 5 rounds Wiz/Sor: Fly 60 ft (good), 5 minutes 7th level Character: Nomad: Fly 40 ft (good), 7 minutes Wiz/Sor: Fly 60 ft (good), 7 minutes 9th level Character: Nomad: Fly 50 ft (good), 90 minutes Wiz/Sor: Fly 60 ft (good), 9 minutes or Fly 40 ft (average), 9 hours (Overland flight) 11th level Character: Nomad: Fly 60 ft (good), 11 hours Wiz/Sor: Fly 60 ft (good), 11 minutes or Fly 40 ft (average), 11 hours (Overland flight) It starts off weaker, but the augment gives it some flexibility and some kick at higher levels ... At level 17, for example, if you pump out 17pp (equivilent to a 9th level slot), you get: Fly 90 ft (good), for 17 hours. Yes, that is certainly good .. but not game-breaking at that level ... ;) It's just a first draft ... any opinions on how to word the augmentation better? Any opinions on the balance of it? this is what I really love about psionics ... don't change things that much .. just introduce or modify an augment here or there .. and viola ... lots of options ... :D
AntiDjinn 03-07-07, 12:22 PM	Even if Fly were a third level power, upon reaching 5th level as a nomad I would still choose Time Hop and either Touchsight or Telekinetic Thrust as my initital 3rd level powers. Fly would wait until level 6 or so. Time Hop, by the way, really should be Nomad 3. It is well worth a feat for non-nomads and fits the nomad archetype well enough that it should have been a discipline power.
ArcTan 03-07-07, 02:29 PM	All sorcerers, wizards, and travel domain clerics get fly sooner than a nomad. By the time a nomad gets fly, an egoist has had ectoplasmic form for two levels for slow flight, and at 7th level -- when a nomad gets fly -- can metamorphose into a harpy to be able to fly faster than a nomad too. Level 7 shapers can by this point create flying astral constructs with a light load of 266 pounds. Druids have been able to wild shape into eagles for two levels. Even clerics without the travel domain can air walk by level seven. Heck, if a DM allows avariels, wizards can fly by level 3 and bards or sorcerers by level 4 with alter self, and if raptorans are allowed but not avariels, even bards can fly a bit by level 5 (maybe). Psychic warriors can have ectoplasmic form at level 7 too, for a bit of slow flight. Now, not all of this is as good as a nomad's flight. Some are slower. Some are less maneuverable. Some don't last as long. A shaper's flying astral construct is all three, in fact. Certainly, a cleric with air walk would be disappointed if he tried to use it in combat to try to imitate a nomad. However, the fact remains that the nomad's reward for being in the discipline is getting something almost as good (range personal rather than touch) as what wizards and sorcerers get, so long as a wizard hasn't prohibited transmutation (and what wizard does prohibit transmutation?), two levels later than a wizard and a level later than a sorcerer. I don't think it would be bad if fly were, say, a psion/wilder 4 power. Having it by a nomad 4 power, weaker than the arcane or travel domain version with its "personal" range, when nomads are supposed to be the masters of mobility, seems like a bit of a disappointing thought. Thoughts? Half this argument, you understand, is just adding fuel to the fire in which WotC is trying to incinerate the very idea of the alter self/polymorph/metamorphosis tree. This is the whole problem with a spell that makes you better at poisoning than the spell poison, better at flying than the spell fly, stronger than the spell bull's strength, and, well, a more useful transformation than Tenser's transformation, all for one slot on your spell list (plus some hours of research in various splats, monster-mining).
IceFractal 03-07-07, 03:04 PM	If Fly is so broken before 7th level, why do Sorcerers, Wizards, and some Clerics get it as a 3rd level spell? If anything the Psionic version is slightly weaker (no casting on others) and a discipline power to boot. Why on earth should it be higher level than a general, easy to get, spell that does the same thing and more? Now I know there's the argument that "just because arcane/divine magic is broken, doesn't mean psionics should be", but that only goes so far. Regardless of what would be the "ideal" game balance, D&D is the game we're playing, and it has certain abilities at certain levels. A movement specialist Psion should at least be as good as a generalist Wizard in the field of movement.
JulesCARV 03-07-07, 04:04 PM	I like The_Ditto's version of fly.
The_Ditto 03-07-07, 04:35 PM	I like The_Ditto's version of fly. I'm still thinking it's on the weak side .. (I tend to err on the side of caution whenever modifying something ... ) ... but haven't put a ton of thought into it yet ... it's just a draft to try to get people thinking ... :D
Khan the Destroyer 03-07-07, 06:55 PM	Sorry guys. But access to fly for a psionic character at level 5 is just proving that psionics are broken.
Seerow 03-07-07, 07:05 PM	lol Khan you should know better than to do the Troll. I think The_Ditto's version of fly is perfect. I really like it.
Khan the Destroyer 03-07-07, 10:09 PM	lol Khan you should know better than to do the Troll. :blush: I know. No more trolling. In this thread.
Nexis 03-07-07, 10:25 PM	I can’t believe no one got that Khan was trolling... this is the guy who made Pun-Pun people ;). More on topic, Nomads get screwed as a rule in XPH, they help them a lot in Untapped Potential, if you’re looking to beef them up.
Seerow 03-07-07, 10:30 PM	:blush: I know. No more trolling. In this thread. Don't make me chase you out of the Fighter threads too >O
NineInchNall 03-07-07, 11:30 PM	Half this argument, you understand, is just adding fuel to the fire in which WotC is trying to incinerate the very idea of the alter self/polymorph/metamorphosis tree. This is the whole problem with a spell that makes you better at poisoning than the spell poison, better at flying than the spell fly, stronger than the spell bull's strength, and, well, a more useful transformation than Tenser's transformation, all for one slot on your spell list (plus some hours of research in various splats, monster-mining). I say those spells (poison, fly, bull's strength, etc.) just suck for their level. Hence the silliness. Especially Tenser's. OMG. Self debuff.
Khan the Destroyer 03-08-07, 11:57 AM	Don't make me chase you out of the Fighter threads too >O Don't do that. I really feel like we're all coming to a mutual understanding. :rofl: Nuts! Couldn't say it with a straight face.
ArcTan 03-08-07, 03:02 PM	I say those spells (poison, fly, bull's strength, etc.) just suck for their level. Hence the silliness. Especially Tenser's. OMG. Self debuff. If you drop polymorph and cashier Tenser's down to 4th level to replace it, I think you might have something.