Post/Author/DateTime	Post
celestialkin 04-06-07, 06:35 AM	Hey guys. I don't mean to be rude or anything, but I'd just like to know why psionics is given such very few options in official Wizards D&D material, such as new powers, feats, classes, ect. Yesterday I got in a little argument with my DM about letting me use a 3rd party book to give the new character I was planning more power and feats options. In short he said no and insisted that there was no need for that because "most of the books on this shelf (he pointed to the store's D&D self) have powers you can choose from". I'm still kind of new to psionics and have only played one other psionic character, so I asked him if I could look through the books to verify this (he works at the store) and he said yes. So after about 15 minutes of skimming through most of the books there I noticed that not only did over half of the books which supplied new spells, class, and feats not mention psionics at all, but the few that did had only 2 or 3 powers at most. However, each of those books had at least 25-30 new spells. I didn't even bother looking through the feats and classes sections, but I'm guessing it is the same. Needless to say I scraped that character idea and went with a rogue instead. Is this because psionics isn't commonly used and has a small fan base, or is there another reason for this?
madmonk 04-06-07, 09:11 AM	First of all, there is nothing wrong with the Expanded Psionics Handbook being the only source of psionics material you have acces to. Some players without money use the srd only! And there is a lot of material in it. It is when you have played a lot of psionic characters, or when 1/2 or even all of the party are psionic characters, that you MAYBE will need more material. Of course, it is better to have more options to chose from, but that is not always necessary. For official material, you have one of the best options in the Mind's Eye articles posted in Wizards' own page. They are very good articles and offer from base classes to prestige classes to feats to powers to races to monster to items. Everything you need. Apart from that, Complete Psionics is an argueable good option for people like you who have DM that don't allow 3rd party material. Beyond that, you could ask your DM to allow Malhavoc's Press Hyperconscious, since that book, while 3rd party, was written by the very same designer as the Expanded Psionic Handbook! To finish, I would add that you should not scrap your psi character's idea nor the rogue idea. Scrap them both and play either a lurk or a psionic rogue ;) Good luck and have a good psi-gaming!
Bacris 04-06-07, 09:20 AM	A DM who believes that virtually every D&D release has psionics material is obviously smoking something laced with something else, if you know what I mean. Psionics has far less WotC support than magic, with Eberron being the only setting that gives psionics any reasonable support. The Races of X series had a couple powers / feats, but I'd go out on a limb and say 75% of WotC books have no psionics support. There are even Eberron books, the setting that included psionics from the get-go, with no psionics support. Of the books that DO have psionics support, only the XPH and Complete Psionic really have a large amount of psionic support. Without delving into 3rd party options, your choices for psionics are going to be pretty limited. That being said, you can do a lot with what's available - just not necessarily as easily as you could with the more supported options, like arcane / divine.
The Ubbergeek 04-06-07, 12:14 PM	You can always look at the Dark Sun's unofficial adaptation for 3,X for more stuff - that setting was THE psionic one, remember.
celestialkin 04-06-07, 01:44 PM	First of all, there is nothing wrong with the Expanded Psionics Handbook being the only source of psionics material you have acces to. Some players without money use the srd only! And there is a lot of material in it. Well, I like having many options to chose from and experiment with for all of my different characters. I'm not someone who's easily content having just one book (two if you count Complete Psionics, which I don't even want) with options for me to use, especially when magic has a whole shelf full of books you can use. Sure we have the ability to invent our own powers and to potentially copy any magic spell into a psionic equivalent, but some DMS might not allow this and it still costs 200XP/power level for each spell. For official material, you have one of the best options in the Mind's Eye articles posted in Wizards' own page. They are very good articles and offer from base classes to prestige classes to feats to powers to races to monster to items. Everything you need. Apart from that, Complete Psionics is an argueable good option for people like you who have DM that don't allow 3rd party material. Really? Thanks for the info. I never knew about these articles. I'll go try to find them and see if my DM allows it. Beyond that, you could ask your DM to allow Malhavoc's Press Hyperconscious, since that book, while 3rd party, was written by the very same designer as the Expanded Psionic Handbook! That was actually the book I got in an argument with him about. I had big plans for trying to become an Arch-Psilich (if it's possible) too. :( To finish, I would add that you should not scrap your psi character's idea nor the rogue idea. Scrap them both and play either a lurk or a psionic rogue ;) Good luck and have a good psi-gaming! Thanks for the idea. I play a lot of rogues, and I've been wondering if a psionic/rogue combination would be effective. Got any tips for how to build such a character?
Tempest Stormwind 04-06-07, 01:49 PM	In the Mind's Eye, you'll find the Psychic Rogue, which is exactly what you want. Check the FAQ at the top of the forum; you'll see a link to: 1) The index of all 3.5 psionic material outside the XPH 2) Introductions to the Mind's Eye 3) Links to the two biggest third party psi books (Hyperconscious and Untapped Potential) 4) Answers to many rules questions you might have. Also, if you want to do a psionic lich, don't use that Hyperconscious abobination. At least make it seem psionic -- the Mindborn in my sig is one such example (it was also published in Untapped Potential if you convince your DM for third-party books but not boards material), but I encourage you to make your own. EDIT in response to your double-post: Athas.org.
celestialkin 04-06-07, 01:49 PM	You can always look at the Dark Sun's unofficial adaptation for 3,X for more stuff - that setting was THE psionic one, remember. I never heard of it. Can I have a link to said adaptation? A DM who believes that virtually every D&D release has psionics material is obviously smoking something laced with something else, if you know what I mean. Psionics has far less WotC support than magic, with Eberron being the only setting that gives psionics any reasonable support. The Races of X series had a couple powers / feats, but I'd go out on a limb and say 75% of WotC books have no psionics support. There are even Eberron books, the setting that included psionics from the get-go, with no psionics support. Of the books that DO have psionics support, only the XPH and Complete Psionic really have a large amount of psionic support. Without delving into 3rd party options, your choices for psionics are going to be pretty limited. That being said, you can do a lot with what's available - just not necessarily as easily as you could with the more supported options, like arcane / divine. That's pretty much what I figured. And it seems like a waste to buy a $30+ book for less than a page of support/options.
Doomed_Penguin 04-06-07, 03:55 PM	Yeah, psionics doesn't get a whole lot of WotC support. If you DM is being a jerk about third party material (I completely understand your want of options), I'd just play a spellcaster, despite my love of psionics. WotC gives a LOT more options for spellcasters anyway, and they can be just as fun (the main differences are really flavor based, psionics fills the same niche as arcane magic in a party). Try the Beguiler class, it's in the Players Handbook II, and it's a combination rogue/caster. If you can convince your DM to at least look over some of the third party books and mind's eye articles before no-ing them, try to do that first (psionics is still better than arcane magic, IMHO).
The Ubbergeek 04-07-07, 12:50 AM	One have to remember that psionic is optional, and many greybeards sadly frown on D&D stuff that is not psuedoeuropean/occidental, feudal fantasy, lilke psionic or asian stuff. And there is the unofficial website - Dark Sun stuff would be usefull to you. Athas.org (http://athas.org/)
Novabomb 04-07-07, 09:38 PM	One have to remember that psionic is optional, and many greybeards sadly frown on D&D stuff that is not psuedoeuropean/occidental, feudal fantasy, lilke psionic or asian stuff. And there is the unofficial website - Dark Sun stuff would be usefull to you. Athas.org (http://athas.org/) Magic is equivilently optional.
The Ubbergeek 04-08-07, 10:43 AM	Magic is equivilently optional. Psionic is, rulewise, FULLY optional. No mention in core rulebooks. Magic is bolted from straight up the start in the game. You should not also forget the fact that many naysayers consider Psion (sadly) like only science-fiction or pulp stuff. Many peoples have a narrow definition of what should be fantasy, and especially D&D fantasy. Hence the main reason why it's optional.
Soul_Devourer 04-08-07, 12:26 PM	I'd just like to know why psionics is given such very few options in official Wizards D&D material, such as new powers, feats, classes, ect. Maybe because it's Wizards of the Coast, not Wilders of the Coast? :P
Mindolin 04-09-07, 12:09 AM	The primary reason, as has been brought up so much before, is that it is not Core, and thus they don't reference it because of the fact that it is not one of books that is required to play the game, and thus it's less justifiable to put something on the market that requires you to purchase another book beforehand.
Nephlite 04-09-07, 12:24 AM	Maybe because it's Wizards of the Coast, not Wilders of the Coast? :P Everybody knows it is Druids of the Coast.
TJEscobar 04-09-07, 12:56 AM	celestialkin, have you read or suggested the section about incorporating psionics in the campaign. Such as having magic being equal to magic. In all seriousness, psionics is still inferior to magic no matter how you slice it. For example, the simple fact that a lot of magic spells increase with caster level progression. Spells such as burning hands or various other damage dealing spells that increase in power as the mage does (up to a certain point). To get that type of increase in psychic powers you almost double up on the amount of psi points used. The only side to that is that the DC increases by a point or two. However the comparion of psi to spell slots is still pretty uneven.
Utric Aelnoth 04-09-07, 06:33 PM	Everybody knows it is Druids of the Coast. puh-lease :P, it should be Favored Souls of the Coast :D And, to add my two cents to this past-tense argument, Psionics does indeed have few supports due to narrow views of Fantasy, as well as preconcieved (or even bad past experiences) notions about psi. Not before a month or so ago, I hated psionics with a pasion because it was flagrantly abused by a twink who played in my group. I only mildly reconsidered it when I experimented with spell point conversions (Unearthed Arcana, thank the heavens, had the wisdom to offer something better than vancian spellcasting), as something viable. Now that I've played a psionic character who didn't abuse the rules, and succeeded, I find it a refreshing look at the game, albeit limited. In short, WotC doesn't really support Psi like Magic because people aren't used to, or don't like the thought of mental powers over supernatural ones, and while its system is mildly innovative compared to what they've set down for it, too many of their buying population doesn't support it, hence, it's not pandered like magic.
Lycanthromancer 04-10-07, 11:39 AM	You can't buy something that isn't released. And you shouldn't buy something that is inherently crap (see CPsi).
celestialkin 04-10-07, 05:57 PM	Thank you all for your advice and input, but based on what many of you have said I think it would be better to quit experimenting with Psionics before I waste any more money on it. Considering the lack of options, Wizards' lack of support for it, the fact that it is inferior to magic (yet misinformed people consider it broken), and that many people feel it's out of place in a fantasy D&D game (including this DM of mine) it doesn't seem worth fighting for this system. In addition, both of my current DMs refuse to integrate the Psionics treasure finding table into our games, so I have/will need to buy all my crystals and items from my own pockets, which has left/will leave me with very little money to buy other things. :(
Tempest Stormwind 04-10-07, 06:15 PM	Thank you all for your advice and input, but based on what many of you have said I think it would be better to quit experimenting with Psionics before I waste any more money on it. Considering the lack of options, Wizards' lack of support for it, the fact that it is inferior to magic (yet misinformed people consider it broken), and that many people feel it's out of place in a fantasy D&D game (including this DM of mine) it doesn't seem worth fighting for this system. In addition, both of my current DMs refuse to integrate the Psionics treasure finding table into our games, so I have/will need to buy all my crystals and items from my own pockets, which has left/will leave me with very little money to buy other things. :( 1) It's still more fun. 2) If no one supports it, it won't be continued. 3) It's Open Game. There's excellent third-party support for it. 4) You don't need a single psionic item to run your psionic character, ever. Not a one. Those distinct ones you do want you can make, but most of the time anything that benefits a wizard or sorcerer can benefit you.
Nephlite 04-10-07, 09:14 PM	Thank you all for your advice and input, but based on what many of you have said I think it would be better to quit experimenting with Psionics before I waste any more money on it. Considering the lack of options, Wizards' lack of support for it, the fact that it is inferior to magic (yet misinformed people consider it broken), and that many people feel it's out of place in a fantasy D&D game (including this DM of mine) it doesn't seem worth fighting for this system. In addition, both of my current DMs refuse to integrate the Psionics treasure finding table into our games, so I have/will need to buy all my crystals and items from my own pockets, which has left/will leave me with very little money to buy other things. :( Can't you sell what you find and buy it? Ask to get gems over items (gems sell for what they cost ( monetarily so you get exactly what you want).
The Ubbergeek 04-21-07, 06:20 PM	As someone asked earlier - I found some more psionic material in the Planescape offical adaptation.
saidin0111 04-21-07, 07:17 PM	earlier someone mentioned going psion/rogue or similar, in that case, you would want to look into going psion/rogue/shadowmind(CAdv), though since a psion wanting to use metapsionics or many other psionic feats needs a decent wisdom, psion/ninja/shadowmind is also a decent option
Lazigothi 04-24-07, 05:13 PM	:raincloud I feel the pain. I was in love with the class since 2ed. The main reason why I played Dark Sun was because the setting gave tremendous support to the class. It seemed like everything had something psionic in the game, and it was magic that was ostracized. 3.5 seems to improved the class significantly. They seem more versatile and balanced. I thought about buying Dungeonscape since it advertised as having something for every class, but there's nothing for the psionicist. Now I don't want it. I think it's ironic that even though the XPHB is listed as a completely optional book that there are core MM creatures with psionic options listed. Every book they make is marketed well, so I doubt there'd be a Psionic Tome in the future without an increase in demand. If the lack of interest comes from flavor, I can understand. I dislike Halflings and Gnomes. If it's an issue with the rules, I'd wonder if such people have looked at the new book and playtested it. I'd let a Halfling or Gnome in my game should a player have their heart on one. On the other hand as far as new, additional powers go, I recall all of the supplements in Dark Sun, and it seemed like not much beyond the core powers from the Psionic HB came into play. I think part of that reason came from the way psionicists advanced. Since they had such few new powers to gain at new levels, it was better to go with the standard powers. If you really wanted some of the powerful abilities, you had to follow a strict progression of prerequisite powers. The basics are done, and done well from the enchantment like telepathy powers, the divination like clairsentient powers, etc. In 3.5 XPHB though, players have the option to get more powers through meditative study. This would give players the option to create their own powers if there are none to be found in supplements anywhere else, and it would be a nice way to use any powers should a supplement get published. I think it's lousy to be given some cheese in allowing a psionic character but not to broaden the world a bit more to allow for psionic items, monsters, and NPC's. It's like playing a fighter, but there's no weapons or armor to be found in the world, just a bunch of peace-niks and lame spellcasters only. Is one supposed to feel grateful for such magnanimity (sarcasm)?:rant:
Boondoggle 04-25-07, 01:29 AM	If your DM is the least bit reasonable (and is presumably using the psi-magic transparency) he should let you research some of the arcane spells in supplements as psionic powers. Usually they only need a little bit of tweaking. For example, something my psion uses to great effect (usually manifested on his psicrystal) converted from the spell compendium, but with a more balanced duration: Dragonsight, Psionic Psychometabolism Level: Psion/Wilder 5 Display: Visual and material Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 10 minutes/level (D) Power Points: 9 Your eyes enlarge and turn yellow and catlike, like those of a dragon. You gain the visual acuity of a dragon, including low-light vision, darkvision, and blindsense. You can see four times as well as a normal human in low-light conditions and twice as well in normal light. Your darkvision is effective out to 90 feet. You take half the normal penalties for distance on spot checks. Your blindsense has a range of 45 feet. None of the effects stack with any low-light vision, darkvision, or blindsense you might already have. Augment: For every additional power point you spend, your darkvision increases by 10 feet and your blindsense increases by 5 feet.