Post/Author/DateTime	Post
snakeman830 07-17-07, 11:46 AM	Seriously, this trick uses two books and makes psions have effectively unlimited pp. Additional Magic Item Space [Epic] Benefit Choose one type of magic item that has a limit on the number you can simultaneously wear and gain its benefit. You can now wear one more magic item of this type and also gain its benefit. Normal Without this feat, you are limited to one headband, hat, or helmet; one pair of eye lenses or goggles; one cloak, cape, or mantle; one amulet, brooch, medallion, necklace, periapt, or scarab; one suit of armor; one robe; one vest, vestment, or shirt; one pair of bracers or bracelets; one pair of gloves or gauntlets; two rings; one belt; and one pair of boots. Special You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of wearable magic item. Take this feat and wear two Torcs of Power Preservation. This will have you manifesting all of your powers at 2 pp less (to a minimum of 1). Normally, this wouldn't be such a bad deal. Bestow Power Telepathy [Mind-Affecting] Level: Psion/wilder 2 Display: Mental Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: 20 ft. Target: One psionic creature Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Power Resistance: No Power Points: 3 You link your mind with another psionic creature’s mind, creating a brief conduit through which mental energy can be shared. When you manifest this power, the subject gains up to 2 power points. You can transfer only as many power points to a subject as it has manifester levels. Because of the intimate nature of this power, it cannot be fabricated into a psionic item—only power points generated by a psionic creature in the moment can be shared using bestow power. Augment For every 3 additional power points you spend, the subject gains 2 additional power points. By not agumenting it, you can target yourself to give yourself 2 pp. Because you are manifesting this power at 2pp fewer, you are actually gaining 1 pp every time you do this. It's time consuming, and not practical in combat, but you should be fully recharged for every encounter. Another way to look at this is you no longer have to rest to regain pp. Anyone think this can be abused any more?
BloodSpill 07-17-07, 11:52 AM	"LOL NIGHTSTIX" There are actually quite a few more ways to 'never run out of power points', but this is the strangest I've seen. Strange meaning, that epic is not necessary. Even if it made any sense. Sort of like Nightsticks (LM) stacking with other Nightsticks. Edit: And strangely I'm not seeing it jump out at me when I look at that thread.
Tsuul 07-17-07, 11:57 AM	If your DM followed his own thing for stacking similar effects instead of the rules, then yup. I'll give an example. Wear two rings of protection.
ck2001wendt 07-17-07, 12:09 PM	The Bestow Power trick no longer works. The Torc of Power preservation has been revised in the Magic Item Compendium. It now reduces your PP expenditure by 1, but only 3/day.
carnivore 07-17-07, 12:12 PM	Seriously, this trick uses two books and makes psions have effectively unlimited pp. Take this feat and wear two Torcs of Power Preservation. This will have you manifesting all of your powers at 2 pp less (to a minimum of 1). Normally, this wouldn't be such a bad deal. By not agumenting it, you can target yourself to give yourself 2 pp. Because you are manifesting this power at 2pp fewer, you are actually gaining 1 pp every time you do this. It's time consuming, and not practical in combat, but you should be fully recharged for every encounter. Another way to look at this is you no longer have to rest to regain pp. Anyone think this can be abused any more? this doesnt work .... notice: Bestow Power Telepathy [Mind-Affecting] Level: Psion/wilder 2 Display: Mental Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: 20 ft. Target: One psionic creature Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Power Resistance: No Power Points: 3 You link your mind with another psionic creature’s mind, creating a brief conduit through which mental energy can be shared. When you manifest this power, the subject gains up to 2 power points. You can transfer only as many power points to a subject as it has manifester levels. Because of the intimate nature of this power, it cannot be fabricated into a psionic item - only power points generated by a psionic creature in the moment can be shared using bestow power. Augment: For every 3 additional power points you spend, the subject gains 2 additional power points. .. you need to link with at least one other creature ..... not your Psicrystal...and you cant have your Psicrystal do since it cant manifest powers, you can manifest powers THRU your psicrystal, but you are still the one manifesting the power :D
RadicalTaoist 07-17-07, 12:49 PM	Bestow Power's still broken and doesn't need epic to break, but that trick in particular doesn't work.
Deekin 07-17-07, 12:50 PM	The Target line is one Psionic Critter. A psion counts as a psionic Critter.
Tempest Stormwind 07-17-07, 01:01 PM	The Target line is one Psionic Critter. A psion counts as a psionic Critter. So you target yourself. The manifestation fails because the power description specifies another psionic creature.
Fleem 07-17-07, 01:19 PM	So you'd need two beings with manifester levels. It still doesn't work with errataed torcs.
munin 07-17-07, 01:23 PM	...The Torc of Power preservation has been revised in the Magic Item Compendium... The Magic Item Compendium is not errata. Both published versions of the torc are official.
Mindolin 07-17-07, 01:30 PM	Actually, when an item or feat is reprinted in a source book, the newest printing takes precedence. Thus, the Magic Item Compendium version of the torc is now the official version.
Zemyla 07-17-07, 01:43 PM	An azurin psion with midnight augmentation can do pretty much the same thing.
unusualsuspect 07-17-07, 02:55 PM	Actually, when an item or feat is reprinted in a source book, the newest printing takes precedence. Thus, the Magic Item Compendium version of the torc is now the official version. I seem to remember something said along the lines of "While these new versions make some items more available to low-level play, the old versions are still available for their previous cost", specifically in discussion of the Torc of Power Preservation and its newest incarnation. Lacking any sort of source for that (and not knowing where to even start looking), however, feel free to dismiss this as immaterial. :)
carnivore 07-17-07, 03:54 PM	The Target line is one Psionic Critter. A psion counts as a psionic Critter. text overides all other ...... hence why i bolded the part that i did :D
Lycanthromancer 07-17-07, 04:09 PM	If you want uber-longetivity, get a psicrystal, share a Split Psionic Ray'd energy conversion with it, both of you sit in an energy wall for half an hour, then when combat comes up, metamorphosis your psicrystal into something alive, then share schism with it. That's 8 potshots per round that deal 3 times your manifester level in damage. Each. If you Overchannel energy conversion, and stack the Greater Psionic Shot on with it (and there are other ways to up your damage quota), then you can fire out sickening amounts of damage each round. For hours. For very little power point expenditure. Especially if you can increase your manifester level through both Overchannel and Greater Power Penetration to gain a huge bonus to your manifester level checks for overcoming PR. Note that you can do other interesting things with Improved Metapsionics.
DisposableHero_ 07-17-07, 06:18 PM	What was the lowest level one of these supposed tricks was designed at? The most hilarious ones were the wilder builds that statistically stopped working once you got to high enough level. At any rate there are sufficiently convincing arguments based on the power text itself that one really does not need to rely on DM sanity to keep this stuff out of the game. Though I'm fairly certain some of the epic psicrystal feats or fission can be used to bypass the "another psionic creature" restriction if one were sufficiently determined
Asadeseth 07-18-07, 12:52 AM	Anouther thing you could do is craft a torc of PP pres that saved you 2 PP per manafest for 250% the cost, or soen that saves you 3 PP for 625% the cost, any more than that and it becomes an epic iteam.
Tempest Stormwind 07-18-07, 12:54 AM	Anouther thing you could do is craft a torc of PP pres that saved you 2 PP per manafest for 250% the cost, or soen that saves you 3 PP for 625% the cost, any more than that and it becomes an epic iteam. And you're pulling numbers out of somewhere I'd rather not describe.
Asadeseth 07-18-07, 01:12 AM	not exactly, but seeing as im packing right now, im not going to go dig out my DMG and lay it all out, look up the magic iteam creation rules and how the cost of weapons and/or armor acumalate as see where i get the numbers from. I may be off, if so corect me, wish i had the time to lay it out and quote page numbers, but i shouldnt even be doing this right now.
Tempest Stormwind 07-18-07, 01:28 AM	That's what the SRD is for. The weapon/armor cost accumulation isn't based off of scaled percentages. It's (bonus^2)*X, where X varies (it's 2000 for weapons and 1000 for armor). I don't see where you're getting the 250 and 625. (I just realized I sound harsh. Forgive me, that's not my intent.)
Asadeseth 07-18-07, 01:57 AM	okay playing from memory here, i got it from reverce engering sword costs. okay a +1 sword is 2,000gp, a +2 sword is 5,000, and a +3 sword is 12,500 (again dont have my book on me) so 100%, 250%, 625%.
Tempest Stormwind 07-18-07, 02:12 AM	okay playing from memory here, i got it from reverce engering sword costs. okay a +1 sword is 2,000gp, a +2 sword is 5,000, and a +3 sword is 12,500 (again dont have my book on me) so 100%, 250%, 625%. They actually give the formula for those in the creating magic items section, and your cost is off for all these weapons. A +1 sword is 2000gp, a +2 sword is 8000, and a +3 sword is 18000, all with the value of the sword added afterwards. The formula is (bonus ^2) *2000. Thus, these are (1*1*2000), (2*2*2000), and (3*3*2000). It's not a linear progression.
unusualsuspect 07-18-07, 02:13 AM	Have you, uh, looked at the SRD lately? :confused: You ARE talking about 3.5e, right? Edit: Re: asadeseth, not Tempest
Asadeseth 07-18-07, 02:27 AM	no, i was working off a obviousely wrong mem.
BloodSpill 07-18-07, 03:27 AM	(I just realized I sound harsh. Forgive me, that's not my intent.) :rofl: You should put that in your sig.
BlaineTog 07-18-07, 04:16 AM	You know, given that this is epic levels, so what? Even if the trick worked,does it really matter? You're epic. You probably have a half-dozen private demiplanes you can pop off to where time runs at a day per minute, or less, where you can replenish yourself entierly without using up an epic feat. At this level, the encounters/day schema would seem to completelly break down anyway, wouldn't it?
DrStalker 07-18-07, 04:52 AM	If you want uber-longetivity, get a psicrystal, share a Split Psionic Ray'd energy conversion with it, both of you sit in an energy wall for half an hour, then when combat comes up, metamorphosis your psicrystal into something alive, then share schism with it. Why would the psicrystal need to be polymorphed? Schism says nothing about the target needing to be living, and from the description it seems any creature with a mind (such as an intelligent construct) could benefit from schism if it were somehow cast on them. Also, would schism actually create a duplicate mind with the benefit of energy Conversion? I'm not sure the rules give enough information to decide what magic effects are duplicated onto the new mind, so it would be up to GM fiat. (Personally I'd say no, but that's not based on any rule I can find)
Fafnir 07-18-07, 06:35 AM	Why would the psicrystal need to be polymorphed? Schism says nothing about the target needing to be living, and from the description it seems any creature with a mind (such as an intelligent construct) could benefit from schism if it were somehow cast on them. Also, would schism actually create a duplicate mind with the benefit of energy Conversion? I'm not sure the rules give enough information to decide what magic effects are duplicated onto the new mind, so it would be up to GM fiat. (Personally I'd say no, but that's not based on any rule I can find) Constructs, even intelligent ones, are immune to Mind Affecting powers such as Schism.
DrStalker 07-18-07, 06:59 AM	So they are... I thought that immunity was tied to having no mind score but by the rules, you are right.
The Livewire 07-18-07, 07:32 AM	Actually, when an item or feat is reprinted in a source book, the newest printing takes precedence. Thus, the Magic Item Compendium version of the torc is now the official version. Until the SRD changes it's legal. Just like the 'errata' i.e. nerfing in the Comp Psi
BloodSpill 07-18-07, 11:37 AM	You know, given that this is epic levels, so what? Even if the trick worked,does it really matter? You're epic. You probably have a half-dozen private demiplanes you can pop off to where time runs at a day per minute, or less, where you can replenish yourself entierly without using up an epic feat. At this level, the encounters/day schema would seem to completelly break down anyway, wouldn't it? Aside: I've gotten the general feeling that most v3.5 DMs will categorically say 'No' to all demiplanes with any different time trait. It became cool to deny this in v3.5.
Calain80 07-18-07, 12:09 PM	The Bestow Power trick no longer works. The Torc of Power preservation has been revised in the Magic Item Compendium. It now reduces your PP expenditure by 1, but only 3/day. While I have created my own non abusable version of Bestow Power, such a change would sicken me. I don't have the Magic Item Compendium and how it looks I wont buy it. So the XPH is the latest source I have. ;)
Psionx 07-18-07, 12:35 PM	you need to link with at least one other creature ..... not your Psicrystal...and you cant have your Psicrystal do since it cant manifest powers, you can manifest powers THRU your psicrystal, but you are still the one manifesting the power :D Fission+Affinity field on each then bestow power Overlapping means its an infinite dismissable loop. Theoretically you could houserule it away, but as raw, it works. BTW: It is another psionic creature...
BlaineTog 07-18-07, 01:53 PM	Aside: I've gotten the general feeling that most v3.5 DMs will categorically say 'No' to all demiplanes with any different time trait. It became cool to deny this in v3.5.For epic, it doesn't seem all that bad. Then again, my only experience with epic has been hearsay and whispers in the dark.
DisposableHero_ 07-18-07, 05:28 PM	For epic, it doesn't seem all that bad. Then again, my only experience with epic has been hearsay and whispers in the dark.Actual epic play is pretty fun assuming everyone restrains themselves. If either the players or the DM take even a slightly adversarial attitude towards each other than it can get out of hand much faster than non-epic games, but its a blast when done right. I hate starting a game at epic levels though. I think the least fun I ever had in a D&D game was playing a psion from 22nd to 25th, but perhaps the most fun was an Arcane Trickster I played from 8th to 24th. It takes time to get used to complicated characters and its hard to make a simple epic character, which is where I think my distaste for starting that way comes from. YMMV.
BlaineTog 07-19-07, 01:34 AM	YMMV."Your Moose May Vomit"? Whaaa? Yeah, I see what you mean. Personally, I have no interest in playing characters that powerful, but I can see the appeal. Adventuring would be something of a low-level cardio to them, one would think.
CrimsonDeath 07-19-07, 03:21 AM	YMMV = "Your mileage may vary." Regarding epic psionic recharge: Just how much patience do you think his adventuring companions have?
DrStalker 07-19-07, 03:33 AM	Is epic based around four-encounters-between-rests? Seems to me it would be much better done balanced per-encounter as it becomes far easier to do tricks with demi-planes and time differences to ensure everyone is fully rested after each encounter.
kab 07-19-07, 06:41 AM	my take: Torc of Power Preservation This item is a band inlaid with precious metal, worn around the neck or upper arm. The wearer of a torc of power preservation manifests all powers by paying power points equal to the standard cost minus 1 (minimum of 1). A torc is treated as an amulet for the purpose of determining which items can be worn on the body. Strong clairsentience; ML 15th; Craft Universal Item, bend reality; Price 36,000 gp; Weight 2 lb. now interpreting this literally, AMOUNT PAID = (STANDARD COST - 1). what does that mean? If we have two torcs, we would calculate AMOUNT PAID twice. the first torc would take the STANDARDCOST and subtract 1. the second torc? it takes... the STANDARDCOST, and subtracts 1. nowhere does it modify the so-called "current" cost. effectively, the effects overlap because of the way they are applied. now expanding this even further, torcs can be abused to, yes, augment for free. the "standard cost" is the one described in the power. and, as the torc says, that is what the manifester pays, apparently regardless of other circumstances (augmenting, catapsi, etc) Remember: DM Discretion is a wonderful thing!
BlaineTog 07-19-07, 03:13 PM	YMMV = "Your mileage may vary." Regarding epic psionic recharge: Just how much patience do you think his adventuring companions have?It'd take about 30 minutes. That's not that much time, particularly since he could do it while walking (or he could manifest psionic fly to keep up with them while he recharged).
DisposableHero_ 07-19-07, 06:24 PM	Or one could do any number of things with variable or mismatched time trait planes and planeshift. It only has to take a 18 seconds in the real world, 6 to get there, 6 to rest 8 hours while you are there, and 6 to get back. Forget this 30 minutes business :D Seriously though, not that big of a deal.
RikuKupo 07-20-07, 11:34 AM	Actually, when an item or feat is reprinted in a source book, the newest printing takes precedence. Thus, the Magic Item Compendium version of the torc is now the official version. Well if you don't have the $$$ to spend 30 bucks a pop every time a new book comes out... the only choice you have is to use your 'unfortunately' out of date book, correct? :P
Lycanthromancer 07-20-07, 04:47 PM	All hail the master moogle. Kupo!
DrStalker 07-20-07, 09:54 PM	I personally consider the SRD to be the authoritative version. Thsi is mainly because I like easily searchable hypertext books; PDFs look nice but html is faster and more usable. And if the players/GM are working on a consensus basis to decide what is allowed, source doesn't matter; being broken does.
InkBlot 07-21-07, 01:21 AM	PDFs have hypertext as well. Unfortunately, most publishers fail to take advantage of that fact.
RikuKupo 07-22-07, 11:45 AM	All hail the master moogle. Kupo! Why thank you :P Thats going to go on my ego pad
DrStalker 07-22-07, 11:01 PM	PDFs have hypertext as well. Unfortunately, most publishers fail to take advantage of that fact. Ideally I'd like a screen-resolution PDF with full hyperlink and indexing, a print-resolution PDF and a hypertext version of each book. And I want all this without paying extra. :-)
Lycanthromancer 07-24-07, 09:14 PM	Good luck with that.