Wild Surge and Schism [Archive] - Wizards Community

Wild Surge and Schism [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Evilclone
12-14-07, 10:25 AM I was wondering how the Wild Surge ability interacts with the Schism power.

Schism says the second mind can use powers as a manifester equal to the manifester level of the wilder minus 8.

Question 1: Say I'm at level 12, I manifest Schism while using wild surge +4, so I manifest the power as I was a manifester of 16th level. The second mind is therefore level 8... or not?

Question 2: Can I use wild surge to improve the powers manifested by the second mind? I think so, but just to be sure...

If the answer to both the questions is yes than this ability and this power becomes quite powerful togheter (well, even alone they're good).
The_Ditto
12-14-07, 12:49 PM I was wondering how the Wild Surge ability interacts with the Schism power.

Schism says the second mind can use powers as a manifester equal to the manifester level of the wilder minus 8.

Question 1: Say I'm at level 12, I manifest Schism while using wild surge +4, so I manifest the power as I was a manifester of 16th level. The second mind is therefore level 8... or not?

Considering the Schismed mind can also Wild Surge, I'd have to say, it's off the pre-surged manifester level ...

but even though it brings your manifester level down to 4 .. you still have the class ability to wild surge +4 .. so the schismed mind to surge back up to 8 ..

Question 2: Can I use wild surge to improve the powers manifested by the second mind? I think so, but just to be sure...

yes ..

If the answer to both the questions is yes than this ability and this power becomes quite powerful togheter (well, even alone they're good).

Hence why I stated it might make more sense to not allow the stacking ...
PhaedrusXY
12-14-07, 02:52 PM Schism is only -6 ML, not -8.

I think Wild Surge would not do much if used when manifesting the Schism itself. However, you could use it to boost powers manifested by the Schism-mind.
Evilclone
12-15-07, 08:45 AM Oh yeah, the schismed mind is six level lower and not eight, I misread it.

So you both say Schism isn't affected by wild surge, but the second mind can wild surge. Uhm... that's ok with me, but there isn't a true evidence, only suppositions.

Thanks anyway ^_^
Evilclone
12-16-07, 04:07 AM Since no one was sure about this problem, I've asked the same question to the WoTC Customer Service.

Answer:

1. Yes your second mind is effectively a 10th level manifester.

2. Schism is unclear in this respect. It specifically states that you may manifest power, it does not say that you gain the class features of the primary mind. By a strict reading, the second mind does not itself have Wild Surge.

It's the opposite of what we thought :P
But by rereading it, I think it's the best way to go.
teshen
12-18-07, 01:43 PM But schism Is you...
Your mind splits into two independent parts. Each part functions in complete autonomy, like two characters in one body. Your new “second mind” does not control your body physically but is free to take one standard action in each round if the action is purely mental (such as manifesting a power) in the same round you take your normal actions.

Your second mind can manifest powers using your power point reserve, but only as if your manifester level were six lower than it is. Your second mind doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity when manifesting a power, because doing so doesn’t distract your primary mind.

Your second mind takes its first action on your turn in the round after schism is manifested.

Both your minds communicate with each other telepathically. If you are subject to a compulsion or charm effect while you are of two minds, make a second saving throw if you fail the first. If you fail both, then the schism ends and you are affected normally by the power. If you fail just one, the schism ends immediately, but you are not subject to the compulsion or charm.

Your second mind does not gain any advantages if you are subject to a haste effect, although you gain the overall standard benefits.Customer service is wrong.

It is probably easier to think of the result. Schism specifically grants you one extra standard action which you can use to manifest powers at a -6 manifester level and a slippery mind effect. It's akin to getting quickened power for all powers during the schism's effect. The cost is the pps for schism and the casting level hit... which wild surge helps to mitigate. Since the second mind is still you with access to power points, feats, skills, etc. why could you not use wild surge... especially if a psion's fragmented consciousness could use overchannel?
PhaedrusXY
12-18-07, 02:11 PM But schism Is you...
Customer service is wrong.That's exactly what I thought when I saw the Cust. Serv. response yesterday. I just didn't bother to reply...
rilem
12-18-07, 02:47 PM Yeah, I don't normally advise ignoring CustServ, but this one sounds totally off-base.
Evilclone
12-18-07, 03:53 PM Uhm... this is getting confusing.

So the final answer is you can wild surge Schism and use wild surge with the schismed mind.

Ok, anymore thoughts before I definitely write it on a stone?
Fafnir
12-18-07, 04:02 PM I'd go with Phaedrus and teshen's answer. You can surge on Schism for increased duration, but it has no effect when manifesting powers with your schismed mind. You can however surge with your schismed mind as it is a purely mental action.

Note that "ML-6" in the schism description refers to your ML at the instant you manifest with your secondary mind, not when you first manifest Schism.

This is my 2 cp.
TheKeyofE
12-18-07, 07:09 PM So if your schismed mind enervates, you lose PP based on your FULL wilder level (although it should be manifester level, which would be -6 for the schism), and your schismed mind is dazed for a round (which should have no effect on your normal mind, yes?).
Tsuul
12-18-07, 07:21 PM Ok, anymore thoughts before I definitely write it on a stone?Yea, figure out a way to erase stone.
MnemonicSV
12-19-07, 03:26 AM Mildly off-topic, but you're missing the very best part of a Wilder manifesting schism... Volatile Mind will force you to lose extra pp! A wilder 12 has to pay 9 pp instead of 7 pp (though the 2 extra pp don't count toward the pp cap).

Sorry EvilClone, didn't mean to rain on your parade. :weep:
Evilclone
12-19-07, 03:57 AM So if your schismed mind enervates, you lose PP based on your FULL wilder level (although it should be manifester level, which would be -6 for the schism), and your schismed mind is dazed for a round (which should have no effect on your normal mind, yes?).

Another problem... uhm... I'll go with: you lose PP based on wilder level and the secondary mind is stunned.

Yea, figure out a way to erase stone.

I'm starting to think this is a problem that won't lead us to anywhere... we haven't enough information to say the final word on this matter.

Mildly off-topic, but you're missing the very best part of a Wilder manifesting schism... Volatile Mind will force you to lose extra pp! A wilder 12 has to pay 9 pp instead of 7 pp (though the 2 extra pp don't count toward the pp cap).

Sorry EvilClone, didn't mean to rain on your parade. :weep:

Well, you aren't ruining anything. I think the Educated Wilder variant is default and Volatile Mind must not exists :P
So no problem about that ^_^
CrimsonDeath
12-19-07, 04:00 AM Mildly off-topic, but you're missing the very best part of a Wilder manifesting schism... Volatile Mind will force you to lose extra pp! A wilder 12 has to pay 9 pp instead of 7 pp (though the 2 extra pp don't count toward the pp cap).

Sorry EvilClone, didn't mean to rain on your parade. :weep:

Not if you use the Educated Wilder variant. Instead, you know two extra powers (one of which is probably Schism).
Tsuul
12-19-07, 04:25 AM ... we haven't enough information to say the final word on this matter.Exactly. So don't put anything in stone yet. But there are some good thoughts bubbling to the surface.
Evilclone
12-19-07, 04:44 AM Exactly. So don't put anything in stone yet. But there are some good thoughts bubbling to the surface.

You're right but everyone has their opinion on how to rule the problem, but no one can say "it's like this because..."
So we have to contact the authors of the book since there can't be an agreement. I don't think it's possible ^^'
The_Ditto
12-20-07, 06:12 PM Yea, figure out a way to erase stone.

Stone to Flesh?
:eek:

I gave my opinion at the start based on balance reasons ... and a "best guess" of intent ... (yeah, I know .. good luck with that lately , eh? :rolleyes: )

Anyway .. to re-iterate my opinion:

a) Wilder surges Schism.
Result: Power has increased duration due to increased ML .. Schismed mind "technically" has increased ML, however, since you ML drops immediately after manifesting, so does the Schism.

b) your Schism'd mind can use Wild Surge (I've never seen anything that outright calls you can't use your class features ... else, a Schism'd mind couldn't even manifest powers ... since - well - that's a class feature, right?)

c) If you schism'd mind enervates, you - of course - lose your Wilder level in PP ... (I hate that rule anyway .. but that's a completely different thread) :D

So ... hopefully that gives enough "reasons" as well ??

In the end, talk with your DM - or if you are the DM - make a call - go with it ... Wilder - as written - kinda sucks anyway ... go get the re-writes and variants and then it's all a non-issue - since you're kinda "starting over" anyway ... ;)
Cheers!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Evilclone 12-14-07, 10:25 AM	I was wondering how the Wild Surge ability interacts with the Schism power. Schism says the second mind can use powers as a manifester equal to the manifester level of the wilder minus 8. Question 1: Say I'm at level 12, I manifest Schism while using wild surge +4, so I manifest the power as I was a manifester of 16th level. The second mind is therefore level 8... or not? Question 2: Can I use wild surge to improve the powers manifested by the second mind? I think so, but just to be sure... If the answer to both the questions is yes than this ability and this power becomes quite powerful togheter (well, even alone they're good).
The_Ditto 12-14-07, 12:49 PM	I was wondering how the Wild Surge ability interacts with the Schism power. Schism says the second mind can use powers as a manifester equal to the manifester level of the wilder minus 8. Question 1: Say I'm at level 12, I manifest Schism while using wild surge +4, so I manifest the power as I was a manifester of 16th level. The second mind is therefore level 8... or not? Considering the Schismed mind can also Wild Surge, I'd have to say, it's off the pre-surged manifester level ... but even though it brings your manifester level down to 4 .. you still have the class ability to wild surge +4 .. so the schismed mind to surge back up to 8 .. Question 2: Can I use wild surge to improve the powers manifested by the second mind? I think so, but just to be sure... yes .. If the answer to both the questions is yes than this ability and this power becomes quite powerful togheter (well, even alone they're good). Hence why I stated it might make more sense to not allow the stacking ...
PhaedrusXY 12-14-07, 02:52 PM	Schism is only -6 ML, not -8. I think Wild Surge would not do much if used when manifesting the Schism itself. However, you could use it to boost powers manifested by the Schism-mind.
Evilclone 12-15-07, 08:45 AM	Oh yeah, the schismed mind is six level lower and not eight, I misread it. So you both say Schism isn't affected by wild surge, but the second mind can wild surge. Uhm... that's ok with me, but there isn't a true evidence, only suppositions. Thanks anyway ^_^
Evilclone 12-16-07, 04:07 AM	Since no one was sure about this problem, I've asked the same question to the WoTC Customer Service. Answer: 1. Yes your second mind is effectively a 10th level manifester. 2. Schism is unclear in this respect. It specifically states that you may manifest power, it does not say that you gain the class features of the primary mind. By a strict reading, the second mind does not itself have Wild Surge. It's the opposite of what we thought :P But by rereading it, I think it's the best way to go.
teshen 12-18-07, 01:43 PM	But schism Is you... Your mind splits into two independent parts. Each part functions in complete autonomy, like two characters in one body. Your new “second mind” does not control your body physically but is free to take one standard action in each round if the action is purely mental (such as manifesting a power) in the same round you take your normal actions. Your second mind can manifest powers using your power point reserve, but only as if your manifester level were six lower than it is. Your second mind doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity when manifesting a power, because doing so doesn’t distract your primary mind. Your second mind takes its first action on your turn in the round after schism is manifested. Both your minds communicate with each other telepathically. If you are subject to a compulsion or charm effect while you are of two minds, make a second saving throw if you fail the first. If you fail both, then the schism ends and you are affected normally by the power. If you fail just one, the schism ends immediately, but you are not subject to the compulsion or charm. Your second mind does not gain any advantages if you are subject to a haste effect, although you gain the overall standard benefits.Customer service is wrong. It is probably easier to think of the result. Schism specifically grants you one extra standard action which you can use to manifest powers at a -6 manifester level and a slippery mind effect. It's akin to getting quickened power for all powers during the schism's effect. The cost is the pps for schism and the casting level hit... which wild surge helps to mitigate. Since the second mind is still you with access to power points, feats, skills, etc. why could you not use wild surge... especially if a psion's fragmented consciousness could use overchannel?
PhaedrusXY 12-18-07, 02:11 PM	But schism Is you... Customer service is wrong.That's exactly what I thought when I saw the Cust. Serv. response yesterday. I just didn't bother to reply...
rilem 12-18-07, 02:47 PM	Yeah, I don't normally advise ignoring CustServ, but this one sounds totally off-base.
Evilclone 12-18-07, 03:53 PM	Uhm... this is getting confusing. So the final answer is you can wild surge Schism and use wild surge with the schismed mind. Ok, anymore thoughts before I definitely write it on a stone?
Fafnir 12-18-07, 04:02 PM	I'd go with Phaedrus and teshen's answer. You can surge on Schism for increased duration, but it has no effect when manifesting powers with your schismed mind. You can however surge with your schismed mind as it is a purely mental action. Note that "ML-6" in the schism description refers to your ML at the instant you manifest with your secondary mind, not when you first manifest Schism. This is my 2 cp.
TheKeyofE 12-18-07, 07:09 PM	So if your schismed mind enervates, you lose PP based on your FULL wilder level (although it should be manifester level, which would be -6 for the schism), and your schismed mind is dazed for a round (which should have no effect on your normal mind, yes?).
Tsuul 12-18-07, 07:21 PM	Ok, anymore thoughts before I definitely write it on a stone?Yea, figure out a way to erase stone.
MnemonicSV 12-19-07, 03:26 AM	Mildly off-topic, but you're missing the very best part of a Wilder manifesting schism... Volatile Mind will force you to lose extra pp! A wilder 12 has to pay 9 pp instead of 7 pp (though the 2 extra pp don't count toward the pp cap). Sorry EvilClone, didn't mean to rain on your parade. :weep:
Evilclone 12-19-07, 03:57 AM	So if your schismed mind enervates, you lose PP based on your FULL wilder level (although it should be manifester level, which would be -6 for the schism), and your schismed mind is dazed for a round (which should have no effect on your normal mind, yes?). Another problem... uhm... I'll go with: you lose PP based on wilder level and the secondary mind is stunned. Yea, figure out a way to erase stone. I'm starting to think this is a problem that won't lead us to anywhere... we haven't enough information to say the final word on this matter. Mildly off-topic, but you're missing the very best part of a Wilder manifesting schism... Volatile Mind will force you to lose extra pp! A wilder 12 has to pay 9 pp instead of 7 pp (though the 2 extra pp don't count toward the pp cap). Sorry EvilClone, didn't mean to rain on your parade. :weep: Well, you aren't ruining anything. I think the Educated Wilder variant is default and Volatile Mind must not exists :P So no problem about that ^_^
CrimsonDeath 12-19-07, 04:00 AM	Mildly off-topic, but you're missing the very best part of a Wilder manifesting schism... Volatile Mind will force you to lose extra pp! A wilder 12 has to pay 9 pp instead of 7 pp (though the 2 extra pp don't count toward the pp cap). Sorry EvilClone, didn't mean to rain on your parade. :weep: Not if you use the Educated Wilder variant. Instead, you know two extra powers (one of which is probably Schism).
Tsuul 12-19-07, 04:25 AM	... we haven't enough information to say the final word on this matter.Exactly. So don't put anything in stone yet. But there are some good thoughts bubbling to the surface.
Evilclone 12-19-07, 04:44 AM	Exactly. So don't put anything in stone yet. But there are some good thoughts bubbling to the surface. You're right but everyone has their opinion on how to rule the problem, but no one can say "it's like this because..." So we have to contact the authors of the book since there can't be an agreement. I don't think it's possible ^^'
The_Ditto 12-20-07, 06:12 PM	Yea, figure out a way to erase stone. Stone to Flesh? :eek: I gave my opinion at the start based on balance reasons ... and a "best guess" of intent ... (yeah, I know .. good luck with that lately , eh? :rolleyes: ) Anyway .. to re-iterate my opinion: a) Wilder surges Schism. Result: Power has increased duration due to increased ML .. Schismed mind "technically" has increased ML, however, since you ML drops immediately after manifesting, so does the Schism. b) your Schism'd mind can use Wild Surge (I've never seen anything that outright calls you can't use your class features ... else, a Schism'd mind couldn't even manifest powers ... since - well - that's a class feature, right?) c) If you schism'd mind enervates, you - of course - lose your Wilder level in PP ... (I hate that rule anyway .. but that's a completely different thread) :D So ... hopefully that gives enough "reasons" as well ?? In the end, talk with your DM - or if you are the DM - make a call - go with it ... Wilder - as written - kinda sucks anyway ... go get the re-writes and variants and then it's all a non-issue - since you're kinda "starting over" anyway ... ;) Cheers!