Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tinari 06-20-07, 11:30 PM	If I were to try making a viable psi-gish that used the SRD Slayer and Mind's Eye Sangehirn PRCs to round out offense and defense, would it be more rational to take Wilder for more starting power and wild surge, or would it be better to take the Egoist who has more powers known to work with with a better list? Egoist has more powers, and thus the PRCs get more powers as well due to the glossing over nature of PRCs to the core classes. Wilders have more HP, BAB, can surge freely, and just have a few points for "awesome" in my book. Would it cripple me one way or another to pick one or the other? Also note, as a somewhat unspoken rule in our group, no one ever uses polymorph/metamorphosis powers. Just not our style. *edit Also, would it be possible to merge scout into the psi-gish idea? Is there any PRCs that merge scouts and psionics? I moved recently and left all my books with my old gaming group as a sign of good faith (and told them I'd be back to reclaim them in the future, heh) so I can't look up a lot of information I used to be able to. :(
zuul88 06-21-07, 01:28 AM	The Egoist is going to be a Much more versatile warrior then a Wilder because A. Psions have 3 times as many powers. B. You will not be advancing your wilder levels so your surge gets no better. C. The difference in HPs and BAB is really minimal because you will have 15 levels of PrCs. There should only be 2-3 psion/wilder levels in your build. Respect Nathan
hovnarr 06-21-07, 04:26 AM	If you want Sangehirn, you might as well go with Wilder I think. I'd just go Egoist 10/Slayer10 though. B. You will not be advancing your wilder levels so your surge gets no better. Unless you're doing a buff-only wilder build, this is actually an advantage. Surge is a top efficiency at wilder level 7-11. It's worse before and it's worse after. There should only be 2-3 psion/wilder levels in your build. How? You can't qualify for Slayer as a straight psion until level 8. Sangehirn is level 6 earliest, IIRC. Oh, and is you want a gish, something should be said for the ol' Aasimar Wilder 20. It's the one exception to never take 20 levels of wilder due to surging getting much worse at high levels. It involves turning into an unbeatable devil, massively buffed in a swift action, and then destroy everything. It's in the wilder build guide by cvazi, if it's still around.
zuul88 06-21-07, 05:58 AM	I'd just go Egoist 10/Slayer10 though. He said he want a Psi-Gish. BAB 15/ML 19 Is Not A Gish! A gish as a BAB 16+/ML 9-18. It all depends on the build. You should have levels of Fighter/Swashbuckler/Ranger(recommened class)/Warblade anything that give you full BAB. That is what a Gish is all about, being a spellslinging warrior. Not frickin 10D4!!!!! HAHAHAHAHA!!!! I would fight your PC any day/any level. Why are you taking the Slayer PrC at 11th level? Why is your PC becoming a melee combatant at that point? So to answer your question you should quailfy for the Slayer PC by 5/6 level just like all other PrCs are destined for. I never played a wilder so I dont really get the "awesomeness" of it. Respect Nathan
hovnarr 06-21-07, 07:44 AM	Why are you taking the Slayer PrC at 11th level? Why is your PC becoming a melee combatant at that point? First off, you take it at level 9 and take the final 2 levels of psion last. But to retort - why become a melee combatant at all, if it's power you want? As you so succintly put it, he wanted a gish. Of course, a level 7 egoist is a gish unto himself - he just has to manifest metamorphosis first. A gish as a BAB 16+/ML 9-18. Ah, sorry, wasn't aware of that definition. Could you direct me to the Official Board of WotC Slang Definitions - for future reference? That is what a Gish is all about, being a spellslinging warrior. You see, that's what I thought too, but it turns out it's about having BAB 16+/ML 9-18. Not frickin 10D4!!!!! HAHAHAHAHA!!!! OMG! Lollol101 roxorzz!!! Hey listen up, deficiencies in motor control and keyboards don't mix - stay clear of it. Respect *attempt to disbelieve, attempt to disbelieve*
Fafnir 06-21-07, 09:02 AM	He said he want a Psi-Gish. BAB 15/ML 19 Is Not A Gish! A gish as a BAB 16+/ML 9-18. It all depends on the build. You should have levels of Fighter/Swashbuckler/Ranger(recommened class)/Warblade anything that give you full BAB. That is what a Gish is all about, being a spellslinging warrior. Not frickin 10D4!!!!! HAHAHAHAHA!!!! I would fight your PC any day/any level. Why are you taking the Slayer PrC at 11th level? Why is your PC becoming a melee combatant at that point? So to answer your question you should quailfy for the Slayer PC by 5/6 level just like all other PrCs are destined for. I never played a wilder so I dont really get the "awesomeness" of it. Respect Nathan Respect? You, my sir, are... nevermind, that would get the tread locked. :rolleyes: To the OP, Egoist10/Slayer10 is good, as is Egoist6/Slayer10/Sangehirn4 and many others. In general, you want to maximize BAB and ML, and the best way to do it is going full Slayer. Sangehirn is still very good. I wouldn't go with Wilder though. The low amount of powers known and not having access to discipline specific ones kills it. And I love the skill points I get from high Int. :D Of course, other Psions are fun, especially Seers. Not as effective as an Egoist (who have the best selection of Gish buffs after PsyWarrior) but worth the try.
Bukowski 06-21-07, 11:48 AM	You could always go ftr/sanctified mind/war mind with the cheesy broken Practiced Manifester feat from the Book That Shall Not Be Named... that would give you a BAB of 20, class abilities that synergize well, and some manifesting (ML 18 but only 6 PsyWar powers known barring feats or psychic chirurgery). The manifesting may be too limited for your tastes, however, and you wouldn't start getting powers until lvl 6.
rilem 06-21-07, 12:09 PM	He said he want a Psi-Gish. BAB 15/ML 19 Is Not A Gish! A gish as a BAB 16+/ML 9-18. Piffle. Gish have to fight and cast. A BAB 15/ML19 can do that. As for your "10d4" comment — Hit Dice are far less important than Constitution at high levels. Throw in the sharepain/vigor/psicrystal trick and you'll have plenty of Hit Points. I happen to like wilder, especially in early game, though psions are more flexible and certainly more powerful later on. Wilder8/Pal2/Sanghirn4/SanctifiedMind6, with the Educated Wilder variant — BAB +17, Saves 14/5/15 + Cha, 16th level Manifester, Wild Surge +3, Resistant to Enervation and a pretty coherent flavor of a selfless psionic warrior. Going Sanghirn5 for the fast healing might be a good idea. Required Feats: Iron will, Mind Over Body, Psionic Body. Good Other feats: Psicrystal Affinity, Enervation Endurance, Expanded Knowledge (Schism) Powers: 11 (with the Educated Variant + Schism)
hovnarr 06-21-07, 12:25 PM	Rilem, I would really appreciate it if you could change that quote so that it doesn't look like I posted that nonsense. Thank you. /hovnarr
The_Shaman 06-21-07, 12:28 PM	You could always go ftr/sanctified mind/war mind with the cheesy broken Practiced Manifester feat from the Book That Shall Not Be Named... that would give you a BAB of 20, class abilities that synergize well, and some manifesting (ML 18 but only 6 PsyWar powers known barring feats or psychic chirurgery). The manifesting may be too limited for your tastes, however, and you wouldn't start getting powers until lvl 6. Why, if I may ask, is Practiced manifester any more broken than practiced spellcaster? Sanctified mind (what progression will you boost, warmind?) and warmind are good classes, sure. Still, you have 70 PP, know 6 powers of up to lvl 5, and can only have a manifester level of 18 if SM levels can boost your Warmind manifesting level past 10, which afaik is a rather controversial point with most DMs. Psywar 14/SM 6 seems better, really - spice it with slayer levels if you want. Anyway, Tinary - another vote for egoist here. You look like you will be seeing a lot of manifester levels, so the extra powers known - which you can take from the egoist list without a feat - can be quite the boon.
rilem 06-21-07, 12:33 PM	Rilem, I would really appreciate it if you could change that quote .... Oy, sorry. Fixed now.
yarethon 06-21-07, 01:36 PM	Both could work. Personally I would go with the egoist, more versatility.
Fafnir 06-21-07, 02:04 PM	Whoops, forgot about Sanctified Mind. :embarrass
Draz74 06-21-07, 02:31 PM	Most important consideration is whether Int or Cha is most important to you. A Paladin-based Psi-Gish, for example, should obviously be a Wilder. If Int vs. Cha isn't a factor, then I'd say Egoist is probably a little more powerful, but I'd prefer Wilder just because it is hurt less by losing a couple manifester levels (worse power progression anyway, plus it will still have plenty of PP). The bigger pool of PP for Wilders seems very nice for a Gish.
Lycanthromancer 06-21-07, 05:28 PM	He said he want a Psi-Gish. BAB 15/ML 19 Is Not A Gish! A gish as a BAB 16+/ML 9-18. It all depends on the build. You should have levels of Fighter/Swashbuckler/Ranger(recommened class)/Warblade anything that give you full BAB. That is what a Gish is all about, being a spellslinging warrior. Not frickin 10D4!!!!! HAHAHAHAHA!!!! I would fight your PC any day/any level. Why are you taking the Slayer PrC at 11th level? Why is your PC becoming a melee combatant at that point? So to answer your question you should quailfy for the Slayer PC by 5/6 level just like all other PrCs are destined for. I never played a wilder so I dont really get the "awesomeness" of it. Respect Nathan I could make an egoist 20 gish that could kick your character's arse. *Stands in a pose with fingers in V shapes in his orange jumpsuit.* BELIEVE IT! [edit] ML 20, Medium BAB, and a build with access to both outsider and construct forms via metamorphosis. Not to mention all of those horrible supernatural abilities granted to outsiders. How d'ya like them apples?
Antendren 06-21-07, 07:18 PM	Not trying to get in the middle of the debate, but shouldn't your Egoist 20 have poor BAB?
Tsuul 06-21-07, 07:25 PM	How d'ya like them apples?Candied pls.
rilem 06-21-07, 08:58 PM	Not trying to get in the middle of the debate, but shouldn't your Egoist 20 have poor BAB? Presumably he's using a skillful weapon to get medium BAB -- that's the easiest way.
zuul88 06-22-07, 04:10 AM	I could make an egoist 20 gish that could kick your character's arse. *Stands in a pose with fingers in V shapes in his orange jumpsuit.* BELIEVE IT! [edit] ML 20, Medium BAB, and a build with access to both outsider and construct forms via metamorphosis. Not to mention all of those horrible supernatural abilities granted to outsiders. How d'ya like them apples? I beileve you. I Do. I have read lots of your stuff on this and other forums and it is all top of the line. Did anyone bother to read the OPs post though? Would it cripple me one way or another to pick one or the other? Also note, as a somewhat unspoken rule in our group, no one ever uses polymorph/metamorphosis powers. Just not our style. I am playing this PC Currently. A egoist Psi-Gish that doesnt use metamorphosis. It is one(the Main) reason to play the egoist. It is a hard choice over the kinectist without metamorphosis but my DM and group is libreal about downtime so I just research other low level powers(energy missle, empathic transfer, hostile 1000 XP.) Craft Wondorous Items make bank off the party selling it for 3/4 price. But any party member should be crafting and selling to the party. You will increase your wealth by level by alot. Pay the XP. My party has me, a psy warrior, a psi-rogue, and a DMPC cleric though. But that is a different point. Besides Sangheim there is Santified Mind and Iron mind. Both are very soild PrC's. Personally going into Santified Mind and delaying my epic bonus feat progression by one level. Respect Nathan P.S. That is how I sign all my posts. I might not respect your comment in particular but for the forum as a whole.
Bukowski 06-22-07, 01:55 PM	Why, if I may ask, is Practiced manifester any more broken than practiced spellcaster? Because it's a poorly-worded Psionic X cut-and-paste job (like a lot of unmentioned book). They failed to take into account the scaling and augmentation of powers compared to that of spells, so you can get a lot more bang for your buck with Practiced Manifester than with Practiced Spellcaster. Just my opinion, no need to derail this thread on that topic. Sanctified mind (what progression will you boost, warmind?) and warmind are good classes, sure. Still, you have 70 PP, know 6 powers of up to lvl 5, and can only have a manifester level of 18 if SM levels can boost your Warmind manifesting level past 10, which afaik is a rather controversial point with most DMs. Psywar 14/SM 6 seems better, really - spice it with slayer levels if you want. Yes, boosting warmind manifesting. I pointed out the low number of powers known in my first post, never said it was a powerful manifester. Achieving ML 18 is debatable, and I've seen long rants about it, but for each DM I know that would nix it there's another who'd allow it since you're far from an overpowering manifester anyways. In any event, I only brought it up because the discussion had drifted towards getting a BAB higher than 15... and that's one of the few methods of getting a BAB +20 psi-gish. :) I'd personally go the wilder route because I enjoy wilder mechanics, but for power I'd agree with you and do egoist. EDIT: And as for adding scout into the mix, I've never tried to add scout mechanics to a gish... if any ideas pop into my head I'll pop them into this thread.
Lycanthromancer 06-22-07, 05:01 PM	My egoist uses his psicrystal to attack. Psicrystals have medium BAB. If he was a neraphim (from the Planar Handbook), it can get outsider forms (though his BAB is poor). Metamorphosising his psicrystal gains him construct forms. Muahahaha...
The_Shaman 06-22-07, 06:26 PM	I would probably consider it for gish builds, though, especially if they lose more than 1 level. The augment capacity it brings is imo quite justified, given that powers sometimes require augmentation for what spells get from free from caster levels (i.e. damage spells and powers).
Tinari 06-23-07, 01:02 AM	Wow, I am not used to having such a large sum of posts to a topic I started. Please allow me to respond in kind to everyone who took time to post. :) The Egoist is going to be a Much more versatile warrior then a Wilder because A. Psions have 3 times as many powers. B. You will not be advancing your wilder levels so your surge gets no better. C. The difference in HPs and BAB is really minimal because you will have 15 levels of PrCs. There should only be 2-3 psion/wilder levels in your build. Aye. That is what I was considering. Egoists have much more powers known and wilders can push their powers higher with wild surge, has a higher BAB and HD with some better starting stats. The character will be starting at 5-6th level by the time I get there, and I still have time to mull over my options. If you want Sangehirn, you might as well go with Wilder I think. I'd just go Egoist 10/Slayer10 though. Oh, and is you want a gish, something should be said for the ol' Aasimar Wilder 20. It's the one exception to never take 20 levels of wilder due to surging getting much worse at high levels. It involves turning into an unbeatable devil, massively buffed in a swift action, and then destroy everything. It's in the wilder build guide by cvazi, if it's still around. By our unspoken understanding in our groups, no one ever uses anything similar to polymorph/metamorphosis. Surely that one spell isn't ALL that makes an egoist useful. Egoist 10/Slayer 10 would give me 15BAB/19CL. That's a very nice, solid go at it, certainly. Sangehirn is primarily to solidify my Fort, BAB, HD and grant myself the ability to use some powers on allies. But in all honestly, after having a second look at the Sangehirn's "Healing Touch" list of sharable powers, it's really crappy, so I may cut the idea of using it out entirely. To the OP, Egoist10/Slayer10 is good, as is Egoist6/Slayer10/Sangehirn4 and many others. In general, you want to maximize BAB and ML, and the best way to do it is going full Slayer. Sangehirn is still very good. I wouldn't go with Wilder though. The low amount of powers known and not having access to discipline specific ones kills it. And I love the skill points I get from high Int. Aye, optimizing my BAB and ML is the goal of a gish. I guess using the term gish was my main failing. I want to play a buffing, battle capable egoist who can get in and trade blows, while being able to perform fast heals for my allies in place of the cleric. Psionic revivify is going to be on my list the second I can attain it, for example. I want to have good HP/DR (Biofeedback) so I can heal others a good amount without massive risk to myself. You could always go ftr/sanctified mind/war mind with the cheesy broken Practiced Manifester feat from the Book That Shall Not Be Named... that would give you a BAB of 20, class abilities that synergize well, and some manifesting (ML 18 but only 6 PsyWar powers known barring feats or psychic chirurgery). The manifesting may be too limited for your tastes, however, and you wouldn't start getting powers until lvl 6. Well, Practiced Manifester will be a no-no. I have enough respect for my DMs that I will not bring the cheese of poorly written or mishandled materials in attempts to bring myself above what may have been intended by the rules. If I were to explain why Practice Manifester is as bad as it is, my DM would not allow it, so I will nip it in the bud myself by not using it. :3 Thank you for the consideration though, it is a very powerful route to go, and I forgot that feat existed for a while. Wilder8/Pal2/Sanghirn4/SanctifiedMind6, with the Educated Wilder variant — BAB +17, Saves 14/5/15 + Cha, 16th level Manifester, Wild Surge +3, Resistant to Enervation and a pretty coherent flavor of a selfless psionic warrior. Going Sanghirn5 for the fast healing might be a good idea. Required Feats: Iron will, Mind Over Body, Psionic Body. Good Other feats: Psicrystal Affinity, Enervation Endurance, Expanded Knowledge (Schism) Powers: 11 (with the Educated Variant + Schism) What book is Sanctified Mind from? The stats presented there are certainly very powerful. Educated Wilder is the de-facto standard I use since it was introduced, and it does serve the ideal I want to fulfill very well. The fast healing would bring my out of combat healing ability up quite bit, all things considered. Very nice suggestion. Anyway, Tinary - another vote for egoist here. You look like you will be seeing a lot of manifester levels, so the extra powers known - which you can take from the egoist list without a feat - can be quite the boon. Yes. I notice the difference between egoist and wilder for me is simple. Egoists, I have enough powers that I get everything I want and then some and sometimes I don't even know what to get. Wilder, I get most of what I want, feats for some others, and I am stretching myself thin. It's either feast or famine, and honestly I just love the flavor of wilders, but Enervation really... irks the hell outta me. A lot. Both could work. Personally I would go with the egoist, more versatility. Duely noted. :) Most important consideration is whether Int or Cha is most important to you. A Paladin-based Psi-Gish, for example, should obviously be a Wilder. If Int vs. Cha isn't a factor, then I'd say Egoist is probably a little more powerful, but I'd prefer Wilder just because it is hurt less by losing a couple manifester levels (worse power progression anyway, plus it will still have plenty of PP). The bigger pool of PP for Wilders seems very nice for a Gish. Int is nice. Cha is handy. Having 18/8 or 8/18 either way won' t overly affect me in the campaigns how we usually run them. I will say I find the Wilder's list of class skills more attractive, at the very least. Egoist's versatility vs the Wilder's flavor is certainly a crux. Anything said. I pay attention to practically anything you sau, as in all my time lurking the psi boards in particular, I've developed a respect for your knowledge of D&D. :D That said, I won't be using metamorphosis in any of my builds. We (the natural born power gamers in our groups) have a habit and unspoken understanding to throttle ourselves down in particular ways or holding back what we COULD do for the sole sake of letting the guy who wanted to play Rogue 4/Monk 16 have as much fun and challenge as we cause ourselves to have by gimping a bit. :3 (Not to say we could even begin to challenge the CharOp boards, but we can do things within the rules that makes some of our D&D buddies jaws drop.) Going back to explain myself a bit more, I am aiming for a combat capable psionic warrior of sorts (that is not actually a Psychic Warrior) that is somewhat selfless. I want to be able to heal others actively (Sangehirn's healing touch or a feat spent on Empathic Transfer) as well as the ability to function as an emergency cleric if our standard cleric goes down. I like to have a bit of redundancy with some abilities in our group "just in case". The cleric just died? I'll use Psionic revivify to pick him back up so he can do his duty again. Any build or suggestions for builds that would grant me the ability to take some blows while packing enough heat to hold my own against enemies are certainly great. Egoist was picked specifically for my gish desires and it would allow me to access Sangehirn faster (Having heal as a class skill.) By an entirely different token, I would also be content as a major battlefield control gish. Shaping the land or using safe-or-suck powers to allow me to get to allies safely, or to engage groups of enemies at a more advantageous position. Thanks for the feedback. I'm not used to seeing so much attention given to my posts, and I hope I was able to make my intent a little more clear so you guys don't have to argue over what's closer to the OP's goals. :)
The_Shaman 06-23-07, 03:46 AM	Sanctified mind is from Lords of Madness, the aberration book. It can be quite good both for psionic players (among others) and their DMs.
hovnarr 06-23-07, 06:01 AM	By our unspoken understanding in our groups, no one ever uses anything similar to polymorph/metamorphosis. Surely that one spell isn't ALL that makes an egoist useful. Egoist 10/Slayer 10 would give me 15BAB/19CL. That's a very nice, solid go at it, certainly. Sangehirn is primarily to solidify my Fort, BAB, HD and grant myself the ability to use some powers on allies. But in all honestly, after having a second look at the Sangehirn's "Healing Touch" list of sharable powers, it's really crappy, so I may cut the idea of using it out entirely. Glad you decided to cut Sangehirn - I've considered it many times myself but I always end up thinking it's moot or a disappointment compared to just playing an Egoist. I completely understand your position on Metamorphosis, in particular after reading your reply to Lycan also. But you and your group seem like a reasonable bunch, so I see no reason to why you'd need to cut it out completely. I love Egoists for the fact that they can do everything, but I don't want to take away power from more specialized party members. So I simply play more discrete Metamorphosis forms. You can use it in non-overpowering ways... I like defensive forms like invisible pixie where I can support the party with entangling ectoplasm, an astral construct, some healing etc. Nobody has a problem with that. They only have a problem when you shift into a 12-headed hydra, breathe 36d6 (Su) fire and annihilate the opposition in one round. The fact that you're able to do that by the RAW shouldn't rule out an entire power or spell type I think. Plus, there are many simple ways to nerf metamorphosis into being balanced. I use such nerfs myself, and even suggest them to DMs when I play. I'd just hate to see a reasonable group having to loose a cool power just because it's possible to break. It's also possible to use it in a balanced way.
Lycanthromancer 06-23-07, 12:33 PM	Despite being in CPsi, you might try looking at the ardent (or even asking your DM to allow you to play a slightly watered-down gestalt version of ardent + divine mind; just don't gestalt the power points and powers known, and you'll be set, since they were originally a single class to begin with). You can make a solid combatant/healer type, along with getting all sorts of other goodies from your *other* mantles. Don't PrC (and if you do, make sure you do so later on, for lots of mantle-y goodness), and you'll do quite well. Yes, I just supported something in Complete Psionic. But it might be just what you need, despite the other horrors presented therein. [edit] And don't completely rule out metamorphosis. If you don't like it as-is, there are plenty of revamped versions of it, like mine (http://dreamscarredpress.com/main/index.php?option=com_joomlaboard&Itemid=28&func=view&catid=9&id=1270#1270). I can't say it is the epitome of balance, but it's far less breakable than the XPH version. And it's available from level 1. If you would like a version that's easier to read, I can send my .doc version to you, if you ask nicely. :)
Tinari 06-23-07, 07:15 PM	Well, hehehe... I guess part of it is balance of power. Because, when we get right down to brass tacks, it comes about like this. We, the players, are allowed to do ANYTHING within the rules that we want to do, even if it involves pulling out a Hulking Moon Hurler or a 12 headed Hydra with enough breath weapons to level a small kingdom. We are allowed. But, remember, your DM has an infinite number of NPCs at his disposal who could, at any point in the campaign, reasonably do or slightly out-do exactly what we're doing. So, I could get metamorphosis and use it in very reasonable ways. That would also open the gateway for the DM using polymorph/metamorphosis in still reasonable way, but it would make things a bit more difficult, heh. However, toned down versions are something we've looked at. I forget where I read it, but somewhere they basically said "Well,here's polymorph. You can ignore now. Look at all these new [polymorph] sub-schools! These are better! Use them!" I've considered applying that to Metamorphosis. And the reason I am stuck on Egoist or Wilder. I've played two campaigns where I played a wilder, and I noticed that practically EVERY feat I had went into EK: Egoist/PsyWar powers. So, why not just go ahead and be an egoist, and then PRC so I can use it similar to how I play wilders? (As psionic warriors.) *Edit* That's a huge rewrite, Lycanthromancer. I like it. :D
Eikre 06-24-07, 07:04 AM	Wait, now. What's so terrible about Practiced Manifester? You get... A higher ML, and a few extra bonus PP from having a high casting stat. Which means your powers can be manifested at a higher level, and you get the PP to facilitate it. So? Magic auto-scales. Practiced Spellcaster does the same thing. I fail to see where this bandwagon hate originates.
Tinari 06-24-07, 07:55 AM	From what I can tell, magic auto-scales, but never higher than your highest caster level in the specific area. Practices Manifester lets you scale up beyond your manifester level if you have higher HD. I've never actually LOOKED at practiced manifester or caster. We don't usually use them. Our builds are usually fairly focused on what they primarily do, and it isn't usually necessary.
Antendren 06-24-07, 02:40 PM	I've never actually LOOKED at practiced manifester or caster.And yet you claim it's poorly written cheese?
zuul88 06-24-07, 05:40 PM	Our builds are usually fairly focused on what they primarily do, and it isn't usually necessary. A Gish is HIGHLY focused on what he does, Spellcasting/Manifesting Warrior! Praticed Manifester is a feat *almost* always in any Gish build. You will lose ML which is breaking the I & VI commandant. It is that important. Respect Nathan
Tinari 06-24-07, 10:24 PM	And yet you claim it's poorly written cheese? I said that I won't bring poorly written or mishandled things to the table that we play. I did lump Practiced Manifester in with that, I can't deny. Yes, I have never read it, but it's been mentioned enough that what it does is clear. It allows me, to some degree, mitigate the costs of taking Psionic prestige classes. Though I may not get the powers I missed or access the better ones as soon, it would still let me use those that I have as if I hadn't lost a thing in the first place. To the point, losing 1 manifester level, I can probably pull out better feats. But, on the flip side, even then, I don't forsee myself taking the feat. Or, I should compare it to Practiced Spellcaster to see how they compare. Does a Sorcerer 8, Fighter 2 cast fireballs that do 10D6?
zuul88 06-25-07, 01:24 AM	Or, I should compare it to Practiced Spellcaster to see how they compare. Does a Sorcerer 8, Fighter 2 cast fireballs that do 10D6? First READ, LEARN, UNDERSTAND THEN AND ONLY THEN MAKE YOUR OWN CHOICE!!!!!!!!!!! Just a good life lesson in general on that point. Second. Yes the fireball is 10D6, magic autoscales. Insert Psion and an energy burst Can be augmented up to 10D6. It raises your ML by up to 4 levels. It does not grant you powers of higher levels. It only affects your Manifester Level. The reason some get their panties in a bunch about it is because your Bonus PP are based of ML(ML x Abl. Mod. x 1/2) Somehow getting some powerpoints you have to spend to get the same 10D6 is way overpowered compared to the extremely balanced and thought out core magic system. Just to be sure that I have not helped you spend any more time in ignorance of what I and others are speaking of. Here you go........links are Awesome! http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Practiced_Manifester,CoP Well, I took my own advice and reread the PM feat. I get how people break it now. I always play PM as Only counting for bonus PP and ML for SR/PR and duration of powers. But by raising your manifester level you raise your Max.Power Level Known. You cant learn more powers then your true ML but every time you level up you can learn new powers of your highest ML. So I stand a converted man. PM is poorly written(get used to it in psionics, everything is cut-and-paste from magic which is a different system.) but it can be fixed with a simple "This feat cannot grant you access to higher level powers then your True ML." Respect Nathan
The_Shaman 06-25-07, 08:18 AM	@ Zuul, Eikre: Weird, I always thought PManifester applied only to manifester level as it applies to duration and augmentation limits, not to bonus PPs from high manifesting score. That would definitely make it more powerful, but are you guys sure it extends to do that? @ Tinari: Of course; caster level also increases damage, and Practiced Spellcaster works for that.
zuul88 06-25-07, 08:55 AM	@ Zuul, Eikre: Weird, I always thought PManifester applied only to manifester level as it applies to duration and augmentation limits, not to bonus PPs from high manifesting score. That would definitely make it more powerful, but are you guys sure it extends to do that? Of course it does. Everything is based off your ML. I have been a big defender of PM for months because it is usually "PM is broken, you can get 6 more Bonus PP." That is not what makes PM poorly written. It is the fact that you can learn powers up to 2 levels higher then you normally could. Figured it out over on the CO boards, with them talking about 1 rogue/4 Arcane Caster quailifing for Daggerspell Mage with Praticised Spellcaster that I caught on. That was patently broken because CL does not work the same. Praticised Spellcaster works for magic but the cut-and-paste travesty that is CompPsi didnt change it for psionics. 2 Fighter/4 Psion w/PM can when attaining 7th level and learning new powers can learn 4th level instead of 3rd if he wants. All it takes is the line "You can never learn power higher then your True ML." Fixed. Respect Nathan
Eikre 06-25-07, 09:19 AM	Wait, now. Who says that powers known is based off your ML? Bonus Power Points from a high Manifesting Stat is explicitly based off ML, but Maximum Powers Known is an aspect of your respective class. Maximum Power Level Known: A psion begins play with the ability to learn 1st-level powers. As he attains higher levels, a psion may gain the ability to master more complex powers.
Fafnir 06-25-07, 09:30 AM	Zuul88: You're misunderstanding; a higher manifester level never allows you to learn higher level powers. Only a true class level advancement would. The only exception is the Ardent, whose maximum power level is tied directly to manifester level instead of class level. Your confusion probably stems from the fact that Daggerspell Mage has an arcane caster level requirement to enter, not "being able to cast level X arcane spells", and Practiced Spellcaster helps with that. This was done to allow Warlocks access to the PrC.
zuul88 06-25-07, 10:22 AM	Zuul88: You're misunderstanding; a higher manifester level never allows you to learn higher level powers. Only a true class level advancement would. The only exception is the Ardent, whose maximum power level is tied directly to manifester level instead of class level. Your confusion probably stems from the fact that Daggerspell Mage has an arcane caster level requirement to enter, not "being able to cast level X arcane spells", and Practiced Spellcaster helps with that. This was done to allow Warlocks access to the PrC. Actually it was/is from the fact "A psion can manifest any power that has a power point cost equal to or lower than his ML." XPH pg.20 last sentence. Respect Nathan
Antendren 06-25-07, 01:04 PM	Manifest, yes. Learn, no. Every manifesting class save ardent has a table that dictates what the highest level power he can know at a given level is. This has nothing to do with manifester level.
sleepydeath 06-26-07, 04:48 AM	None of both :) Most fun to play gish: Monk 2/Psychic Rogue 18 with the Secrets of Sarlona feat for stacking Flurry of Blows, AC and unarmed dmg + Carmendine Monk full flurry, monk dmg and AC progression. 7d6 sneak attack, 18 ML, plenty of skillpoints, trapfinding, evasion, imp. uncanny dodge. If Quintessencial Monk is allowed, have fun with high stunning fist dcs (ki straps + feats) and forcing your target to make a will safe instead of fort if you want + if allowed, with expert tactician from song and silence you get a free attack every time the opponent ist stunned (or otherwise denied his dex bonus) Sun School + Expert Tactician (if allowed) + Hustle + Dimension Door: Dimension Door into range, deliver a stun, get free attack and then make full attack with flurry of blows.
The_Shaman 06-26-07, 07:27 AM	Manifest, yes. Learn, no. Every manifesting class save ardent has a table that dictates what the highest level power he can know at a given level is. This has nothing to do with manifester level. Ah, interesting... I wonder if you can manifest power from another psionicist, this has always been an intriguing trick in psionics. @Sleepydeath: it is nice; but it is not a gish imo.