Wilder-How to build one? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Wilder-How to build one? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zardnaar
07-10-07, 03:00 AM Whats the best way to use the Wilder in game? I'm thinking of making an NPC one based on the character from the 80's movie Firestarter (the Drew Barrymore as a kid one).

Do you bother with powers that enhance youe melee abilities since you have 3/4 BAB. Seems good for blast em powers like Mind Thrust and Energy Missile.
The_Ditto
07-10-07, 07:59 AM Wilders have a limited power selection and limited feat selection .. which means one of two things:

1) You really have to choose wisely and plan ahead in order to "cover all the bases" ...
OR
2) you really have to chose wisely and plan ahead in order to focus on your selected specialty/focus without making yourself useless in too many situations.

An exaggerated description of the Wilder: "It does 1 thing really REALLY REALLY well!"

It can be blaster, it can be face, it can be melee ... whatever ... it just depends on the power/feat picks ... but you REALLY need to think things through and concentrate on what your trying to do and not get "distracted" with ..

"ooo, shiny penny!!!"

.. other "kewl" feats/powers that don't really help you ...
;)
Istarion
07-10-07, 12:06 PM Also, if you want your Wild Surge to be worth something, then you need to:

Reduce the pp lost to enervation (multiclass, or Enervation Endurance)
Bypass the dazing (Postpone enervation, and other obscure ways)
Zardnaar
07-10-07, 05:56 PM I'm thinking a handful of attack powers with maybe expanded knowledge to grab a power or 2 from various lists. Seems Wilder would make a good blaster- maybe better than a normal Psion?
rilem
07-10-07, 06:08 PM 1. Always, Always take the Educated Wilder Variant from Mind's Eye.
2. Consider getting out of wilder soon (after 5-7 levels, or even sooner), as the Enervation is keyed to Wilder level.

The wilder build guide by cvazi has some good ideas.
The_Shaman
07-10-07, 06:37 PM BTW, I've been wondering about a paladin 2/wilder /SMind. Would that be a good option for a multiclassed wilder gish? Practiced Manifester would be included in the build, of course.
rilem
07-10-07, 07:45 PM I'm a big fan of those. Paladin2/Wilder7/SanctifiedMind6/ironMind5 would work nicely.
Lycanthromancer
07-10-07, 10:51 PM You know, you can become immune to dazing through a soulmeld in Magic of Incarnum. It's one of like 3 ways in all of D&D to become immune. Maybe there IS a way to play a wilder 20 without sucking too much.

[edit] With a couple of feats, you too can become immune to dazing! For only 49 payments of $49,999,999.95!
MikeTheAmazingMuskrat
07-11-07, 01:48 AM Maybe there IS a way to play a wilder 20 without sucking too much.
Also, if you want your Wild Surge to be worth something, then you need to:
Reduce the pp lost to enervation (multiclass, or Enervation Endurance)
...
...
2. Consider getting out of wilder soon (after 5-7 levels, or even sooner), as the Enervation is keyed to Wilder level.
Many seem to dislike Wild Surge at the higher levels of Wilder, but I'm a little fuzzy as to why. I understand that you lose out on the net effective power point gain from Wild Surge once you hit 20, but +6 manifester levels seems pretty amazing. Whether you need to overcome spell resistance, bump up Power Resistance, Twin and Empower a 9th level power, or even augment the maximum damage on Energy Conversion, Wild Surging for 6 doesn't seem like a terrible option.

In terms of builds, I'll ditto The_Ditto-- since the power selection is so limited, a good plan in the beginning can only help. If you have a strong idea what role you want to play in your group or what style of play will amuse you the most, run with it. Maybe set aside 2 powers for contingency abilities, and focus the rest? Hell, if you just want to roll with a fire starter concept, the Pyrokineticist prestige class will give you ample abilities to help you torch just about everything in sight.

I've played a melee based Wilder and a blaster based Wilder, and both were effective-- but running out of power points with a blaster concept can make for a sad panda. With the 3/4 BA, it might be nice to have at least one power that will enable you to boost your potential melee/ranged capabilities.

-mike the amazing muskrat
Zardnaar
07-11-07, 02:14 AM What are some suggested powers then?
The_Ditto
07-11-07, 08:51 AM Many seem to dislike Wild Surge at the higher levels of Wilder, but I'm a little fuzzy as to why. I understand that you lose out on the net effective power point gain from Wild Surge once you hit 20, but +6 manifester levels seems pretty amazing.

There's no denying, a +6 is a big help .. but if you look at the math behind it ... the Wilder "gets worse" as he increases in level ... technically, no other class ability "gets worse" as they increase in level .. (Barbarian? goes from +4 to +8 to str/con ... and eventually LOSES the fatigue effect afterwards ...)

Wilder ... goes from +1 to +6 .. and GAINS more downsides ... :rolleyes:

Level 1 Wilder .. Wild Surge +1
Saving: 1 pp
% chance to enervate: 5%
Cost of enervate: 1 pp
Avg cost to enervate: 1pp * 5% = .05 pp
Net savings per Wild Surge: 1 pp - .05 pp = .95 pp

Level 10 Wilder .. Wild Surge +1
Saving: 1 pp
% chance to enervate: 5%
Cost of enervate: 10 pp (WTF?!)
Avg cost to enervate: 10 pp * 5% = .5 pp
Net savings per Wild Surge: 1 pp - .5 pp = .5 pp

Level 20 Wilder .. Wild Surge +1
Saving: 1 pp
% chance to enervate: 5%
Cost of enervate: 20 pp (WTF?!)
Avg cost to enervate: 20 pp * 5% = 1 pp
Net savings per Wild Surge: 1 pp - 1 pp = 0 pp !!

So .. at level 20 ... surging by +1 is such a big effect that we need to totally nerf it compared to level 1 .. where the cost is next to nothing!?!?
WTF!?

Ok .. let's look at the bigger surges:

Level 7 Wilder .. Wild Surge +3
Saving: 3 pp
% chance to enervate: 15%
Cost of enervate: 7 pp
Avg cost to enervate: 7pp * 15% = 1.05 pp
Net savings per Wild Surge: 3 pp - 1.05 pp = 1.95 pp

Level 13 Wilder .. Wild Surge +3
Saving: 3 pp
% chance to enervate: 15%
Cost of enervate: 13 pp
Avg cost to enervate: 13 pp * 15% = 1.95 pp
Net savings per Wild Surge: 3 pp - 1.95 pp = 1.05 pp

Level 20 Wilder .. Wild Surge +3
Saving: 3 pp
% chance to enervate: 15%
Cost of enervate: 20 pp (WTF?!)
Avg cost to enervate: 20 pp * 15% = 3 pp
Net savings per Wild Surge: 3 pp - 3 pp = 0 pp !!

The bottom line to all this math?
Surge often and surge big ... unless you're level 20 .. in which case DO NOT SURGE ... That's the real WTF of the Wilder class ...

Seriously .. if you plan on playing a wilder, convince your DM to use one of the many variants out there ...

Or .. the most simplest "solution" ...

Change the cost of enervation from Wilder level to 3 * Surge amount ...
That (sort of) fixes the problem ... it actually makes it worthwhile for a level 20 Wilder to surge by +1 .... or +2 .. or to actually "THINK" about how much to surge for ..

As it is now .. there's no thought ... if you surge .. you surge big ... because there's no real reason to surge smaller ..

:tiphat:
rilem
07-11-07, 10:36 AM Here's one I've been working on, using some tips from Cvazi's Wilder guide. It's not fire-starter theme at all, but it gives you an idea of how I went about assembling a wilder.

Social Wilder at level 10

Wilder7/CognitionThief3 (CogThief is from Player’s Guide to Faerun, Wilder uses Educated Variant from Mind’s Eye)
BAB: 6
Saves: 3/3/8
HD: 7d6 + 3d4

Feats: Inquisitor, Psicrystal Affinity, Quick Recovery, Enervation Endurance, EK (Energy Missile or Crystal Swarm)

ML: 9 (72 + Cha points)
Powers: 5 +2 EK + 2 bonus telepath

Powers: Vigor, Prescience (offense), Share Pain, Mind Blast, Dimension Door
Bonus Powers: Psionic Charm, Suggestion (or empathic transfer, hostile)
EK Powers: Astral Construct, Energy Missile

Neat stuff: Read Thoughts 1/day, Wild Surge +3, Euphoria +1, relatively little enervation pain.

Tactics/strengths: Party face, obviously. He’s got strong social skills throughout, bolstered by liberal uses of charm. Room-clearing potential with Energy Missile, Mind Blast and (less destructively) Mass Suggestion. He’s no tank, but he can create one with a 6th level Astral Construct. And he’s a capable second-line combatant with a longspear (fighting from behind his astral mook), (Max. attack bonus of +12 before other mods, assuming a maxed-out Prescience and Euphoria).

Next level: CogThief 4 for Confusion 1/day and Schism/Dominate as Bonus Powers, then Wilder 8 for Intellect Fortress or Telekinetic Buffer?

Long Term: Wilder12/CogThief8, Wilder7/CogThief6/Slayer7?

Options/questions?

Not sure if it’d be better to take track feat for Slayer. Also, there’s probably a better choice to Precognition (offense).

Is the Share Pain/Vigor/Psicrystal Trick worth it with somebody who probably won’t be on the front line? There is the option of dumping that and getting healing through Hostile Empathic Transfer.
Doomed_Penguin
07-11-07, 12:55 PM Ask my DM if you can use my base class variant of the Pyrokineticist (it's in my sig). It seems to fit the theme of Firestarter better than the prestige class, though it doesn't have the flavor that wild surge would give.

Ask your DM if he might let you occasionally do super powerful effects at the risk of passing out/losing control afterward. I tend to let my players do that on occasion.
rilem
07-11-07, 01:42 PM That alternate PC might be a good idea.

The problem with the wilder-as-firestarter concept is all the flavor powers that really don't help the Wilder that much. Let's look at the first level of Powers:

1.
Matter Agitation
Control Flame
Both of these are must-have powers for a Pyro, but are both REALLY situational. Wilders don't do well with situational powers. And you probably want Energy Ray, as well. That's all your powers through level 6.
MikeTheAmazingMuskrat
07-13-07, 01:51 PM The bottom line to all this math?
Surge often and surge big ... unless you're level 20 .. in which case DO NOT SURGE ... That's the real WTF of the Wilder class ...
...
As it is now .. there's no thought ... if you surge .. you surge big ... because there's no real reason to surge smaller ..

:tiphat:
I'm unclear as to which of the above comments you're arguing-- I agree (for the most part) with the latter one, though. The reasons to surge for small amounts are very limited at higher levels. You might want a brief bump to saving throws without a large risk of being dazed, for instance.

I think the purpose of the Surge changes rather than merely decreases as you increase in level. Initially, it is a major boon in PP conservation and efficiency, but I don't believe that's as big an issue at higher levels. Why would you need that one precious power point bump at 20th level? In terms of scale, though, the +6 bonus is far more significant. To say it's worthless seems like a gross understatement. You increase your ability to penetrate Spell/Power resistance by 30%, you can bump up your own Spell/Power resistance by 30% (if you choose that power, of course), you can stack metapsionic feats onto very high level powers, etc etc. And yes, again, there's usually not much thinking at that point as to how much to Surge for, but WHEN to Surge becomes a much more important question. It'd be kind of ridiculous if every power the Wilder tossed out was at +6 manifester level without any drawbacks whatsoever. Even in the levels preceding 20, the manifester jump is still tremendously powerful. Twinning an Assimilate at lvl 18 is pretty sweet.

But, all of this may very well be worthless to Zardnaar. dUde, what level is your game starting at and what level is it projected to end at? I'm also a little unclear if you are fishing for ideas for a fire-starter, or just fishing for ideas in general.

-mike the amazing muskrat
The_Ditto
07-13-07, 02:39 PM I think the purpose of the Surge changes rather than merely decreases as you increase in level. Initially, it is a major boon in PP conservation and efficiency, but I don't believe that's as big an issue at higher levels. Why would you need that one precious power point bump at 20th level?

Tell me then, why a 20th level Wilder - more experienced BY FAR than a 1st level Wilder .. doesn't get the same cost savings? Why is the 1st level Wilder getting free PP .. when the 20th level Wilder (who you'd THINK would be better at this) ... is getting nothing ??

Bottom line: More levels in Wilder = Suckier Wild Surge ...
The only GAIN of the higher Wilder levels is larger + to Wild Surge ...
The real kick in the pants, though, is that the SAME wild surge compared to lower level sucks worse at higher level!! :eek:

In terms of scale, though, the +6 bonus is far more significant.

Agreed ... but compare a +1 Wild Surge by a level 20 Wilder to a +1 Wild Surge by a Level 1 Wilder ...

.. yeah ... that's what I'm talking about ... getting worse the higher level you go ... "oops?"

To say it's worthless seems like a gross understatement. You increase your ability to penetrate Spell/Power resistance by 30%, you can bump up your own Spell/Power resistance by 30% (if you choose that power, of course), you can stack metapsionic feats onto very high level powers, etc etc. And yes, again, there's usually not much thinking at that point as to how much to Surge for, but WHEN to Surge becomes a much more important question.

Agreed with this part 100% ...
Again .. to really understand what I'm talking about .. compare the same Wild Surge at different levels of Wilder ... :tiphat:

It'd be kind of ridiculous if every power the Wilder tossed out was at +6 manifester level without any drawbacks whatsoever. Even in the levels preceding 20, the manifester jump is still tremendously powerful. Twinning an Assimilate at lvl 18 is pretty sweet.

Agreed .. and if you use 3 * Wild Surge amount for the cost (rather than Wilder level) .. you still get - basically - the same "cost" for the highest surge the Wilder knows ... but for lower surges (ie Wild Surge +1 at level 20) you get something that's actually quite useful for the Wilder - and doesn't suck worse than it did when he was 1st level.

compare apples to apples ..

Comparing Wild Surge +1 to Wild Surge +6 isn't useful .. of course the +6 is better!
That's like comparing Rage (+4) to Rage (+8) ... hmm, let me think about that ...
No, compare the effect: "Hey look, at 17th level the Barbarian is no longer fatigued!!"

(just for comparitive argument sake ... compare Barbarian to Wilder ..)
Rage +4 -> Wild Surge +2
Rage +8 -> Wild Surge +4
Fatigued -> Enervation

points:
- Wilder's surge progresses more steadily (+1 to +6, opposed to +4 to +8 )
- Fatigue is 100%, Surge is < 100% (until you get into Epic, than it's > 100% at some point!)
- Barbarian gets "better" at raging in several ways, but mainly: no more fatigue at high level! (100% goes down to 0%)
- Wilder gets "worse" at surging, because with all other factors the same (ie Wild Surge +2 @ lvl 3 vs @ lvl 18), it costs more - on average - for the 18th level wilder ... ergo: increased cost for Wilder.
decreased cost for barbarian ..
Zardnaar
07-13-07, 06:09 PM I'm unclear as to which of the above comments you're arguing-- I agree (for the most part) with the latter one, though. The reasons to surge for small amounts are very limited at higher levels. You might want a brief bump to saving throws without a large risk of being dazed, for instance.

I think the purpose of the Surge changes rather than merely decreases as you increase in level. Initially, it is a major boon in PP conservation and efficiency, but I don't believe that's as big an issue at higher levels. Why would you need that one precious power point bump at 20th level? In terms of scale, though, the +6 bonus is far more significant. To say it's worthless seems like a gross understatement. You increase your ability to penetrate Spell/Power resistance by 30%, you can bump up your own Spell/Power resistance by 30% (if you choose that power, of course), you can stack metapsionic feats onto very high level powers, etc etc. And yes, again, there's usually not much thinking at that point as to how much to Surge for, but WHEN to Surge becomes a much more important question. It'd be kind of ridiculous if every power the Wilder tossed out was at +6 manifester level without any drawbacks whatsoever. Even in the levels preceding 20, the manifester jump is still tremendously powerful. Twinning an Assimilate at lvl 18 is pretty sweet.

But, all of this may very well be worthless to Zardnaar. dUde, what level is your game starting at and what level is it projected to end at? I'm also a little unclear if you are fishing for ideas for a fire-starter, or just fishing for ideas in general.

-mike the amazing muskrat

The PCs are about to hit level 3 so a low level wilder would probably be 4-5 or so. They just seem to be weak/crap to me.
rilem
07-14-07, 10:16 AM Low-levels, I disagree, for the reasons stated already. Wild Surge is at its best at low levels, and a level 3 PC that can put out no-save blasts for 5d6, or can pump his HP to 38 (plus con), assuming average rolls, is pretty good.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zardnaar 07-10-07, 03:00 AM	Whats the best way to use the Wilder in game? I'm thinking of making an NPC one based on the character from the 80's movie Firestarter (the Drew Barrymore as a kid one). Do you bother with powers that enhance youe melee abilities since you have 3/4 BAB. Seems good for blast em powers like Mind Thrust and Energy Missile.
The_Ditto 07-10-07, 07:59 AM	Wilders have a limited power selection and limited feat selection .. which means one of two things: 1) You really have to choose wisely and plan ahead in order to "cover all the bases" ... OR 2) you really have to chose wisely and plan ahead in order to focus on your selected specialty/focus without making yourself useless in too many situations. An exaggerated description of the Wilder: "It does 1 thing really REALLY REALLY well!" It can be blaster, it can be face, it can be melee ... whatever ... it just depends on the power/feat picks ... but you REALLY need to think things through and concentrate on what your trying to do and not get "distracted" with .. "ooo, shiny penny!!!" .. other "kewl" feats/powers that don't really help you ... ;)
Istarion 07-10-07, 12:06 PM	Also, if you want your Wild Surge to be worth something, then you need to: Reduce the pp lost to enervation (multiclass, or Enervation Endurance) Bypass the dazing (Postpone enervation, and other obscure ways)
Zardnaar 07-10-07, 05:56 PM	I'm thinking a handful of attack powers with maybe expanded knowledge to grab a power or 2 from various lists. Seems Wilder would make a good blaster- maybe better than a normal Psion?
rilem 07-10-07, 06:08 PM	1. Always, Always take the Educated Wilder Variant from Mind's Eye. 2. Consider getting out of wilder soon (after 5-7 levels, or even sooner), as the Enervation is keyed to Wilder level. The wilder build guide by cvazi has some good ideas.
The_Shaman 07-10-07, 06:37 PM	BTW, I've been wondering about a paladin 2/wilder /SMind. Would that be a good option for a multiclassed wilder gish? Practiced Manifester would be included in the build, of course.
rilem 07-10-07, 07:45 PM	I'm a big fan of those. Paladin2/Wilder7/SanctifiedMind6/ironMind5 would work nicely.
Lycanthromancer 07-10-07, 10:51 PM	You know, you can become immune to dazing through a soulmeld in Magic of Incarnum. It's one of like 3 ways in all of D&D to become immune. Maybe there IS a way to play a wilder 20 without sucking too much. [edit] With a couple of feats, you too can become immune to dazing! For only 49 payments of $49,999,999.95!
MikeTheAmazingMuskrat 07-11-07, 01:48 AM	Maybe there IS a way to play a wilder 20 without sucking too much. Also, if you want your Wild Surge to be worth something, then you need to: Reduce the pp lost to enervation (multiclass, or Enervation Endurance) ... ... 2. Consider getting out of wilder soon (after 5-7 levels, or even sooner), as the Enervation is keyed to Wilder level. Many seem to dislike Wild Surge at the higher levels of Wilder, but I'm a little fuzzy as to why. I understand that you lose out on the net effective power point gain from Wild Surge once you hit 20, but +6 manifester levels seems pretty amazing. Whether you need to overcome spell resistance, bump up Power Resistance, Twin and Empower a 9th level power, or even augment the maximum damage on Energy Conversion, Wild Surging for 6 doesn't seem like a terrible option. In terms of builds, I'll ditto The_Ditto-- since the power selection is so limited, a good plan in the beginning can only help. If you have a strong idea what role you want to play in your group or what style of play will amuse you the most, run with it. Maybe set aside 2 powers for contingency abilities, and focus the rest? Hell, if you just want to roll with a fire starter concept, the Pyrokineticist prestige class will give you ample abilities to help you torch just about everything in sight. I've played a melee based Wilder and a blaster based Wilder, and both were effective-- but running out of power points with a blaster concept can make for a sad panda. With the 3/4 BA, it might be nice to have at least one power that will enable you to boost your potential melee/ranged capabilities. -mike the amazing muskrat
Zardnaar 07-11-07, 02:14 AM	What are some suggested powers then?
The_Ditto 07-11-07, 08:51 AM	Many seem to dislike Wild Surge at the higher levels of Wilder, but I'm a little fuzzy as to why. I understand that you lose out on the net effective power point gain from Wild Surge once you hit 20, but +6 manifester levels seems pretty amazing. There's no denying, a +6 is a big help .. but if you look at the math behind it ... the Wilder "gets worse" as he increases in level ... technically, no other class ability "gets worse" as they increase in level .. (Barbarian? goes from +4 to +8 to str/con ... and eventually LOSES the fatigue effect afterwards ...) Wilder ... goes from +1 to +6 .. and GAINS more downsides ... :rolleyes: Level 1 Wilder .. Wild Surge +1 Saving: 1 pp % chance to enervate: 5% Cost of enervate: 1 pp Avg cost to enervate: 1pp * 5% = .05 pp Net savings per Wild Surge: 1 pp - .05 pp = .95 pp Level 10 Wilder .. Wild Surge +1 Saving: 1 pp % chance to enervate: 5% Cost of enervate: 10 pp (WTF?!) Avg cost to enervate: 10 pp * 5% = .5 pp Net savings per Wild Surge: 1 pp - .5 pp = .5 pp Level 20 Wilder .. Wild Surge +1 Saving: 1 pp % chance to enervate: 5% Cost of enervate: 20 pp (WTF?!) Avg cost to enervate: 20 pp * 5% = 1 pp Net savings per Wild Surge: 1 pp - 1 pp = 0 pp !! So .. at level 20 ... surging by +1 is such a big effect that we need to totally nerf it compared to level 1 .. where the cost is next to nothing!?!? WTF!? Ok .. let's look at the bigger surges: Level 7 Wilder .. Wild Surge +3 Saving: 3 pp % chance to enervate: 15% Cost of enervate: 7 pp Avg cost to enervate: 7pp * 15% = 1.05 pp Net savings per Wild Surge: 3 pp - 1.05 pp = 1.95 pp Level 13 Wilder .. Wild Surge +3 Saving: 3 pp % chance to enervate: 15% Cost of enervate: 13 pp Avg cost to enervate: 13 pp * 15% = 1.95 pp Net savings per Wild Surge: 3 pp - 1.95 pp = 1.05 pp Level 20 Wilder .. Wild Surge +3 Saving: 3 pp % chance to enervate: 15% Cost of enervate: 20 pp (WTF?!) Avg cost to enervate: 20 pp * 15% = 3 pp Net savings per Wild Surge: 3 pp - 3 pp = 0 pp !! The bottom line to all this math? Surge often and surge big ... unless you're level 20 .. in which case DO NOT SURGE ... That's the real WTF of the Wilder class ... Seriously .. if you plan on playing a wilder, convince your DM to use one of the many variants out there ... Or .. the most simplest "solution" ... Change the cost of enervation from Wilder level to 3 * Surge amount ... That (sort of) fixes the problem ... it actually makes it worthwhile for a level 20 Wilder to surge by +1 .... or +2 .. or to actually "THINK" about how much to surge for .. As it is now .. there's no thought ... if you surge .. you surge big ... because there's no real reason to surge smaller .. :tiphat:
rilem 07-11-07, 10:36 AM	Here's one I've been working on, using some tips from Cvazi's Wilder guide. It's not fire-starter theme at all, but it gives you an idea of how I went about assembling a wilder. Social Wilder at level 10 Wilder7/CognitionThief3 (CogThief is from Player’s Guide to Faerun, Wilder uses Educated Variant from Mind’s Eye) BAB: 6 Saves: 3/3/8 HD: 7d6 + 3d4 Feats: Inquisitor, Psicrystal Affinity, Quick Recovery, Enervation Endurance, EK (Energy Missile or Crystal Swarm) ML: 9 (72 + Cha points) Powers: 5 +2 EK + 2 bonus telepath Powers: Vigor, Prescience (offense), Share Pain, Mind Blast, Dimension Door Bonus Powers: Psionic Charm, Suggestion (or empathic transfer, hostile) EK Powers: Astral Construct, Energy Missile Neat stuff: Read Thoughts 1/day, Wild Surge +3, Euphoria +1, relatively little enervation pain. Tactics/strengths: Party face, obviously. He’s got strong social skills throughout, bolstered by liberal uses of charm. Room-clearing potential with Energy Missile, Mind Blast and (less destructively) Mass Suggestion. He’s no tank, but he can create one with a 6th level Astral Construct. And he’s a capable second-line combatant with a longspear (fighting from behind his astral mook), (Max. attack bonus of +12 before other mods, assuming a maxed-out Prescience and Euphoria). Next level: CogThief 4 for Confusion 1/day and Schism/Dominate as Bonus Powers, then Wilder 8 for Intellect Fortress or Telekinetic Buffer? Long Term: Wilder12/CogThief8, Wilder7/CogThief6/Slayer7? Options/questions? Not sure if it’d be better to take track feat for Slayer. Also, there’s probably a better choice to Precognition (offense). Is the Share Pain/Vigor/Psicrystal Trick worth it with somebody who probably won’t be on the front line? There is the option of dumping that and getting healing through Hostile Empathic Transfer.
Doomed_Penguin 07-11-07, 12:55 PM	Ask my DM if you can use my base class variant of the Pyrokineticist (it's in my sig). It seems to fit the theme of Firestarter better than the prestige class, though it doesn't have the flavor that wild surge would give. Ask your DM if he might let you occasionally do super powerful effects at the risk of passing out/losing control afterward. I tend to let my players do that on occasion.
rilem 07-11-07, 01:42 PM	That alternate PC might be a good idea. The problem with the wilder-as-firestarter concept is all the flavor powers that really don't help the Wilder that much. Let's look at the first level of Powers: 1. Matter Agitation Control Flame Both of these are must-have powers for a Pyro, but are both REALLY situational. Wilders don't do well with situational powers. And you probably want Energy Ray, as well. That's all your powers through level 6.
MikeTheAmazingMuskrat 07-13-07, 01:51 PM	The bottom line to all this math? Surge often and surge big ... unless you're level 20 .. in which case DO NOT SURGE ... That's the real WTF of the Wilder class ... ... As it is now .. there's no thought ... if you surge .. you surge big ... because there's no real reason to surge smaller .. :tiphat: I'm unclear as to which of the above comments you're arguing-- I agree (for the most part) with the latter one, though. The reasons to surge for small amounts are very limited at higher levels. You might want a brief bump to saving throws without a large risk of being dazed, for instance. I think the purpose of the Surge changes rather than merely decreases as you increase in level. Initially, it is a major boon in PP conservation and efficiency, but I don't believe that's as big an issue at higher levels. Why would you need that one precious power point bump at 20th level? In terms of scale, though, the +6 bonus is far more significant. To say it's worthless seems like a gross understatement. You increase your ability to penetrate Spell/Power resistance by 30%, you can bump up your own Spell/Power resistance by 30% (if you choose that power, of course), you can stack metapsionic feats onto very high level powers, etc etc. And yes, again, there's usually not much thinking at that point as to how much to Surge for, but WHEN to Surge becomes a much more important question. It'd be kind of ridiculous if every power the Wilder tossed out was at +6 manifester level without any drawbacks whatsoever. Even in the levels preceding 20, the manifester jump is still tremendously powerful. Twinning an Assimilate at lvl 18 is pretty sweet. But, all of this may very well be worthless to Zardnaar. dUde, what level is your game starting at and what level is it projected to end at? I'm also a little unclear if you are fishing for ideas for a fire-starter, or just fishing for ideas in general. -mike the amazing muskrat
The_Ditto 07-13-07, 02:39 PM	I think the purpose of the Surge changes rather than merely decreases as you increase in level. Initially, it is a major boon in PP conservation and efficiency, but I don't believe that's as big an issue at higher levels. Why would you need that one precious power point bump at 20th level? Tell me then, why a 20th level Wilder - more experienced BY FAR than a 1st level Wilder .. doesn't get the same cost savings? Why is the 1st level Wilder getting free PP .. when the 20th level Wilder (who you'd THINK would be better at this) ... is getting nothing ?? Bottom line: More levels in Wilder = Suckier Wild Surge ... The only GAIN of the higher Wilder levels is larger + to Wild Surge ... The real kick in the pants, though, is that the SAME wild surge compared to lower level sucks worse at higher level!! :eek: In terms of scale, though, the +6 bonus is far more significant. Agreed ... but compare a +1 Wild Surge by a level 20 Wilder to a +1 Wild Surge by a Level 1 Wilder ... .. yeah ... that's what I'm talking about ... getting worse the higher level you go ... "oops?" To say it's worthless seems like a gross understatement. You increase your ability to penetrate Spell/Power resistance by 30%, you can bump up your own Spell/Power resistance by 30% (if you choose that power, of course), you can stack metapsionic feats onto very high level powers, etc etc. And yes, again, there's usually not much thinking at that point as to how much to Surge for, but WHEN to Surge becomes a much more important question. Agreed with this part 100% ... Again .. to really understand what I'm talking about .. compare the same Wild Surge at different levels of Wilder ... :tiphat: It'd be kind of ridiculous if every power the Wilder tossed out was at +6 manifester level without any drawbacks whatsoever. Even in the levels preceding 20, the manifester jump is still tremendously powerful. Twinning an Assimilate at lvl 18 is pretty sweet. Agreed .. and if you use 3 * Wild Surge amount for the cost (rather than Wilder level) .. you still get - basically - the same "cost" for the highest surge the Wilder knows ... but for lower surges (ie Wild Surge +1 at level 20) you get something that's actually quite useful for the Wilder - and doesn't suck worse than it did when he was 1st level. compare apples to apples .. Comparing Wild Surge +1 to Wild Surge +6 isn't useful .. of course the +6 is better! That's like comparing Rage (+4) to Rage (+8) ... hmm, let me think about that ... No, compare the effect: "Hey look, at 17th level the Barbarian is no longer fatigued!!" (just for comparitive argument sake ... compare Barbarian to Wilder ..) Rage +4 -> Wild Surge +2 Rage +8 -> Wild Surge +4 Fatigued -> Enervation points: - Wilder's surge progresses more steadily (+1 to +6, opposed to +4 to +8 ) - Fatigue is 100%, Surge is < 100% (until you get into Epic, than it's > 100% at some point!) - Barbarian gets "better" at raging in several ways, but mainly: no more fatigue at high level! (100% goes down to 0%) - Wilder gets "worse" at surging, because with all other factors the same (ie Wild Surge +2 @ lvl 3 vs @ lvl 18), it costs more - on average - for the 18th level wilder ... ergo: increased cost for Wilder. decreased cost for barbarian ..
Zardnaar 07-13-07, 06:09 PM	I'm unclear as to which of the above comments you're arguing-- I agree (for the most part) with the latter one, though. The reasons to surge for small amounts are very limited at higher levels. You might want a brief bump to saving throws without a large risk of being dazed, for instance. I think the purpose of the Surge changes rather than merely decreases as you increase in level. Initially, it is a major boon in PP conservation and efficiency, but I don't believe that's as big an issue at higher levels. Why would you need that one precious power point bump at 20th level? In terms of scale, though, the +6 bonus is far more significant. To say it's worthless seems like a gross understatement. You increase your ability to penetrate Spell/Power resistance by 30%, you can bump up your own Spell/Power resistance by 30% (if you choose that power, of course), you can stack metapsionic feats onto very high level powers, etc etc. And yes, again, there's usually not much thinking at that point as to how much to Surge for, but WHEN to Surge becomes a much more important question. It'd be kind of ridiculous if every power the Wilder tossed out was at +6 manifester level without any drawbacks whatsoever. Even in the levels preceding 20, the manifester jump is still tremendously powerful. Twinning an Assimilate at lvl 18 is pretty sweet. But, all of this may very well be worthless to Zardnaar. dUde, what level is your game starting at and what level is it projected to end at? I'm also a little unclear if you are fishing for ideas for a fire-starter, or just fishing for ideas in general. -mike the amazing muskrat The PCs are about to hit level 3 so a low level wilder would probably be 4-5 or so. They just seem to be weak/crap to me.
rilem 07-14-07, 10:16 AM	Low-levels, I disagree, for the reasons stated already. Wild Surge is at its best at low levels, and a level 3 PC that can put out no-save blasts for 5d6, or can pump his HP to 38 (plus con), assuming average rolls, is pretty good.