Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pitiless_Interfector 12-09-07, 07:41 PM	How exactly do I play a Wilder? What impact does my increased skill selection, hit die, and base attack bonus have on my party role? How do wild surge and my limited powers known list impact my feat selection? And most important of all, how do I prioritize my powers known choices? I am currently AFB, and thus limited to the Hypertext d20 SRD, but my initial thoughts ran along these lines: Skills: Escape Artist, Tumble, Sense Motive, and Bluff are excellent for their use in combat and/or their inability to be easily replicated by a power, given the limited choices I have. Only 5 ranks of Concentration are needed. Feats: 5 ranks of Concentration and the class's innate shield proficiency allow me to easily qualify for Shielded Manifesting from Races of Stone and waive provoking any attacks of opportunity for manifesting. Enervation Endurance and Postpone Enervation make wild surge consequence-free in most combats. I'm assuming that everyone else in their right mind would spend any available leftover feat slots on Expanded Knowledge, right? Powers: Here's where I'm lost. I can economize and prioritize enough to play a viable sorcerer, but when it comes down to picking only a single power each level (plus detect psionics and reality revision), I'm incapable of choosing well, especially since I lack experience with judging how lower-level powers interact with high-level augmentation.
Artector 12-09-07, 07:55 PM	http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a Bottom of the page, expanded class for Wilders. Some nice benefits. But having never played one I can't help much beyond that, though it sounds like you have some good ideas. 1 nit-pick: Concentration is used for way more than defensive manifesting, if played right most manifesting shouldn't be done in melee range anyways.
The_Mess 12-09-07, 10:13 PM	The Wilder Build Guide and Compendium (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=487972)
rilem 12-09-07, 10:39 PM	Second the Wilder Guide. What level are we talking?
Lycanthromancer 12-10-07, 11:11 AM	Note that you should NEVER play a wilder beyond about 11th level. Ever. PrC if you can, and don't play a wilder if you can't. The reason for this (as you likely know quite well) is that as you gain in levels your chance of enervating increases until it reaches 100% (which is bad), and the number of pp you waste skyrockets. Very bad level design.
hovnarr 12-10-07, 11:28 AM	Note that you should NEVER play a wilder beyond about 11th level. Ever. Never say never! And never ever say never ever. The aasimar wilder 20 is in the wilder guide. It negates the problems arising with 11+ wilder manifestation by almost exclusively manifesting inside a huge Temporal Acceleration. Up to that level, it can emulate any straight wilder build by using Psychic Reformation before going into Horned Devil mode at 12th.
Lycanthromancer 12-10-07, 11:30 AM	Sounds cheesy to me.
SlanderPanic 12-10-07, 11:36 AM	If you want the fun of a wilder without the pain and suffering, play a psion going for the Anarchic Initiate prestige class. You have fewer skill points, slightly smaller hit dice, and you lose armor and weapon proficiencies. In exchange, you get more powers, a wider power selection, and a couple of bonus feats. Also, you get to punch holes in the multiverse. How cool is that?
archerpwr 12-10-07, 11:54 AM	If you want the fun of a wilder without the pain and suffering, play a psion going for the Anarchic Initiate prestige class. You have fewer skill points, slightly smaller hit dice, and you lose armor and weapon proficiencies. In exchange, you get more powers, a wider power selection, and a couple of bonus feats. Also, you get to punch holes in the multiverse. How cool is that? Anarchic Initiate is terrible. Full ML? Medium bab? Wild surge with 0 wilder levels (RAW this means all you have to worry about is stunning, since 0 wilder levels = 0 pp lost)? Punch holes in the universe? Postpone innervation as a bonus feat (I did mention that the stunning was the only downside with a psion entry, right?)? Incredibly easy prereqs (overchannel is standard)? Terrible design. I refuse to touch it.
Lycanthromancer 12-10-07, 12:03 PM	You can get a soulmeld to make you immune to stunning. ...Yeah.
archerpwr 12-10-07, 12:06 PM	You can get a soulmeld to make you immune to stunning. ...Yeah. So... Psion 5/ AI 2/ Incarnate 1/ Soul Manifester 10/ AI +2 Important powers/feats: Shape Soulmeld Open Chakra power PP recharge combo (the one where you expend your focus for free pp for one round) *sorely tempted*
SlanderPanic 12-10-07, 12:13 PM	Anarchic Initiate is terrible. I refuse to touch it. I'm just pointing out that the best wilder in the game is a psion. :p
archerpwr 12-10-07, 12:18 PM	I'm just pointing out that the best wilder in the game is a psion. :p Well, yeah.
Lycanthromancer 12-10-07, 12:23 PM	'Scuse me. You get immune to dazing (which is what the wilder does to you). My bad. Anyway, using anarchic initiate with psion as your base class and the soulmeld means that you have absolutely no drawbacks when enervating, since you lose no pp, are not dazed, and nothing about enervation states that you lose the power you just manifested. Gravy.
Vharuck 12-10-07, 12:34 PM	What level are you? That'll help us suggest nifty powers for you to take. Also, I may have misread, but are you taking detect psionics as one of your powers? Because you shouldn't. I would hope there's a spellcaster in your party, and they get detect magic which should be transparant (if psionics and magic are not transparant, talk to your DM about what will be a bad decision).
Lycanthromancer 12-10-07, 12:41 PM	If you're mid- or higher level, psionic contingency + psychic reformation should be your bread n butter. It'll allow you to do some nice rearranging on the fly, thereby making up for your lack of powers known. Also, the educated wilder variant is quite nice (and useful!).
jbsaff 12-14-07, 04:03 PM	If you've got the means and can convince the DM, get Untapped Potential from Dreamscarred Press and use the variant wilder in the back of that book. Fixes the progression issues and better balances the class. Makes straight Wilder 20 look pretty compelling. Educated Wilder from Mind's Eye article is also excellent. Should work fine with the variant wilder mentioned above. Are you using Complete Psionic? If not, Astral Construct can be a great power. Vigor and Share Pain is another sweet combination. More on power selection and the like can be found in the build guide linked above.
The_Shaman 12-14-07, 06:15 PM	Anarchic Initiate is terrible. Full ML? Medium bab? Wild surge with 0 wilder levels (RAW this means all you have to worry about is stunning, since 0 wilder levels = 0 pp lost)? Punch holes in the universe? Postpone innervation as a bonus feat (I did mention that the stunning was the only downside with a psion entry, right?)? Incredibly easy prereqs (overchannel is standard)? Terrible design. I refuse to touch it. Meh, I consider it standard stuff for wilders. Yes, it's powerful, but it mimics their class features with less suck... Medium BAB, low prerequisites, and all that may be too much for a psion, but he's not a psion - so why the heck should he play by their rules?
archerpwr 12-14-07, 06:47 PM	Meh, I consider it standard stuff for wilders. Yes, it's powerful, but it mimics their class features with less suck... Medium BAB, low prerequisites, and all that may be too much for a psion, but he's not a psion - so why the heck should he play by their rules? Well, for wilders it's no problem. Wilders have so few powers known it's not even funny. That psions can get into it is just wrong.
Pitiless_Interfector 12-14-07, 07:19 PM	The campaign I will be in stretches from level 7 to level 12 (the standard campaign range employed by our DM, who had somehow figured out the magic numbers years before the offhand comments by one the 4E developers at the 'Con). He tends to play a very realistic and humanoid-centered campaign. While the fantastic will be a recurring theme, it generally manifests in encounters with outsiders, undead, constructs, elementals, and NPCs with class levels (or even prestige classes!) My originally planned powers known list ran along these lines: 7th: mind thrust, vigor, cloud mind, dispel psionics 8th: telekinetic maneuver 9th: energy cone (EK) 10th: psychic crush 11th: — 12th: psionic disintegrate, Feats went like this: Deflecting Shield (possibly misnamed; it's definitely in LoM), Enervation Endurance, Postpone Enervation, Shielded Manifesting, Expanded Knowledge (energy cone) [9th], Expanded Knowledge (psionic teleport) [12th]. If I can convince my DM to allow the use of the Educated Wilder alternative class feature, I would begin play with astral construct (the one CPsi errata whose existence he utterly refuses to acknowledge) and pick up touchsight at 9th.
InkBlot 12-14-07, 09:21 PM	Psychic crush? Are you sure? The saving throw DC for psychic crush is effectively the same as a 1st level power, and cannot be raised through augmentation. Everybody you target with psychic crush gets a +4 bonus to their saves against it. Psychic Crush Telepathy [Mind-Affecting] Level: Psion/wilder 5 Display: Auditory Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. +5 ft./2 levels) Target: One creature Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Will partial; see text Power Resistance: Yes Power Points: 9 Your will abruptly and brutally crushes the mental essence of any one creature, debilitating its acumen. The target must make a Will save with a +4 bonus or collapse unconscious and dying at -1 hit points. If the target succeeds on the save, it takes 3d6 points of damage. Augment: For every 2 additional power points you spend, this power’s damage increases by 1d6 points.
rilem 12-14-07, 10:44 PM	I'm not sure I like even one of those powers. Except Vigor. Too many mind-affecting powers, for one. You're screwed against undead, et al. Mind Thrust -- Will negates. Blech. Cloud Mind -- Why? Dispel Psionics -- This is OK but it'd be better to have somebody else do it. TK maneuver -- specifically relies on Intelligence, not primary mental stat. Wilders shouldn't take this. Energy Cone -- Cones aren't a very useful shape b/c they often catch your own party. Psychic Crush -- unaugmentable. How about: 1. Vigor 2. Offensive Precognition 3. 4. Crystal Storm 5. Astral Construct (Educated) 6. Energy Missile (EK), Share Pain (Or Energy Push and Chain Power) 7. 8. Intellect Fortress or Dimension Door 9. Empathic Transfer-Hostile, (EK) Dispel Psionics (educated) Feats: psicrystal affinity, enervation endurance, Expanded Knowledge x2, Shielded manifesting (which you really can drop, just max out Conc.). Don't worry about Postpone Enervation, just buy a Third Eye: Clarity or two. This gives you: Melee Prowess and the ability to survive it (O.P, Vigor/Share Pain), Offensive powers vs. mult. foes (E.M); powers vs. foes with spell resistance (C.S.), Support (A.C., DD or Intel. fort), and healing (ET-hostile).
hovnarr 12-16-07, 04:32 PM	Leadership feat for a psion cohort and manifesting from another's powers known. What, have you never heard of a Psion (TM) databank? Good for utility powers, long term buffs - anything you don't need to do while on a round clock basically.
pascalnz 12-16-07, 04:48 PM	if your in ebberonn, you can take two feats [dragon marks] to make you immune to daze and stun. also in the abberations book you can take a feat which lets you have a save at the start of your round to get ouit of daze/stun for your move action
pascalnz 12-16-07, 04:55 PM	ohh, and celestial conduit is quite a sexy blast power, enemies can't resist it, and the save dc goes up 1 per 1 point not two:P. basically if your going wilder, try and make it so you surge everyhting , or it;s just not worth the effort, I played a wilder to 12th level and had a blast, basic wilder and anarchic, for it's first 2 wild surge boosts. faantastic:P
pascalnz 12-16-07, 05:01 PM	ohh, one last thing, educated is awesome:P. if you can't get someone in the party with a lot of heals or easy acces to wands, take the lvl one heal power in complete psi. you can heal a lot for one power point when you surge. I ended up being the party healer till my soul got removed by a necrocarnate:(
Evilclone 12-17-07, 03:27 AM	if your in ebberonn, you can take two feats [dragon marks] to make you immune to daze and stun. also in the abberations book you can take a feat which lets you have a save at the start of your round to get ouit of daze/stun for your move action Which feats are you talking about? I don't remember any dragonmark that gives you immunity to stun. EDIT: Nevermind, I've found it. For those interested it is the Mark of Dauntless feat in Dragonmarked. ohh, one last thing, educated is awesome:P. if you can't get someone in the party with a lot of heals or easy acces to wands, take the lvl one heal power in complete psi. you can heal a lot for one power point when you surge. I ended up being the party healer till my soul got removed by a necrocarnate:( How can you be the party healer if the healing powers are personal?
CrimsonDeath 12-17-07, 04:02 AM	Which feats are you talking about? I don't remember any dragonmark that gives you immunity to stun. Mark of the Dauntless, a feat from Dragonmarked. It's available to anyone with a True Dragonmark, and it protects from both stun and daze.
The_Mess 12-17-07, 10:36 AM	How can you be the party healer if the healing powers are personal? There's a 1st level power in Complete Psionic called "Touch of Health" that heals 2 hp/pp to a creature touched. It is, inexplicably, only available to Ardents, but Wilders with the educated option can ignore that fairly quickly. Egoists can pick up the power "Empathic Transfer" from the XPH to bring damage from a companion onto themselves, which they can then cure with "Body Adjustment", but having to manifest two powers gets rather expensive, especially with them being 2nd and 3rd level respectively. There are, however, more clever things to do: Use "Vigor" to give yourself temporary hit points before using "Empathic Transfer", thus replacing "Body Adjustment" with a much cheaper and more cost effective source of hp. Use "Share Pain" on a party member before combat to suck up half his hp damage, which you can manifest "Vigor" to absorb into temporary hp. It's just like casting a bunch of healing spells on him during combat without having to take any other actions! For added fun, manifest "Share Pain" on yourself and your psicrystal. Also, manifest "Vigor", which you share with your psicrystal! Vigor now gives you double the value! So, using the last two options together, manifest "Share Pain" between yourself and the party brick, then on yourself and your psicrystal (6 pp total). Manifest "Vigor" on yourself and share it (at least 1pp, but you'll want it higher). Your party brick gets hit for 20 hp of damage. He only takes 10 and you "take" 10, 5 of which goes to you and 5 goes to your psicrystal. 1 pp of "Vigor" absorbs the entire 10. For every 20 points taken by your brick, you cure 10 with 1 pp (not counting the 6 flat rate pp to set it up). Remanifest Vigor as needed! For comparison, "Cure Light Wounds", maxed out, does 8.5 hp of healing per casting on average. So, the equivalent Clerical healing option is actually weaker, and he has to touch the brick in combat which isn't always convenient! (P.S., I can't believe I considered Vigor a subpar power before finding this forum.)
InkBlot 12-17-07, 11:57 AM	Share pain is nice. Clerics can do it to, with shield other (which also grants a bonus to saves and AC). Although Clerics don't have a vigor equivilant in core, they get rocking cure spells. Wilders can be very decent at preventing damage, and have passable healing abilities, but clerics are the best. Lets look at level 11. 3pp share pain you + psicrystal 3pp share pain you + ally 11pp vigor you + psicrystal Your ally takes 220 damage, you each take half of it (110), then you and your psicrystal each take half of that (55), and your vigor absorbs that. 110 damage goes poof. So for 16 power points, you "cured" 110 points of damage. 16 power points is the equivilant of an 8th level spell. For a 6th level spell (11pp), heal, a cleric can cure 110 points of damage plus a laundry list of status ailments. Cleric wins. The cleric must walk up and touch his ally, but has the armor and HP to do so. The cleric could cast shield other on his ally, if he wanted to avoid getting too close to the enemy. The cleric didn't have to spend any feats on this, and knows all the spells on his list automatically. For shield other, he would have to spend 100gp on a set of platinum rings. Empathic transfer + vigor, at it's most efficient at 13th level, heals about 3 hp for every pp spent. Touch of health heals 2hp/pp. Cure x wounds heals about 4hp/psuedo-pp, or much much more if you use your lower level spells. Touch of health is minimized cure x wounds. Mend wounds, the higher level direct-cure power, is half-rate heal. Share pain/empathic transfer + psicrystal + vigor requires feats, hoop jumping, and precious time to set up. The best way for a wilder to heal is to just wild surge on an 1pp touch of health. At 11th level, you can surge and heal 10 hit points for 1 power point. It's slower than heal, but you only had to spend one feat (or one power known if you're a mantled wilder) to get it.
archerpwr 12-17-07, 04:18 PM	After running some numbers a while back I found that the most pp efficient method of healing for a psion is share pain (psicrystal) + vigor (shared with psicrystal) + empathatic transfer on the injured party member. Share pain with the party member ahead of time if you can be assured of having vigor up in combat for a slightly more efficient route.
Evilclone 12-17-07, 04:23 PM	I didn't know about the Touch of Health power, but I know the vigor + share pain combo... my fault, I always thought about it to be used only with the psycristal. Well, with Empathic Transfer and the right powers you can also play as a cleric to remove ability damage and such... oh man, you're right, who needs clerics? :D
TheKeyofE 12-17-07, 05:22 PM	*snip* And CoDzilla sings "Anything you can do, I can do better..."
CrimsonDeath 12-17-07, 06:08 PM	The best way for a wilder to heal is to just wild surge on an 1pp touch of health. At 11th level, you can surge and heal 10 hit points for 1 power point. Except that with each +4 Wild Surge, you have a 20% chance of losing 11PP. So, 5 manifestations will cure 50HP but cost (on average) 16PP, for a total of 3.125 HP/PP.
pascalnz 12-17-07, 06:41 PM	actually at +4 if you've taken 6 levels of wilder and 4 levels of anarchic, with the feat that halves pp loss, you only lose 3 power points every time you fail., if you really want to be cheap about it, instead of surge crazy take 10 levels of wilder and 10 levels of anarchic , and that feat and even into epic you will only have to pay 5 pp's every time you surge and fail. remember you only pp's = to your wilder level, not any other level you might have.
InkBlot 12-17-07, 06:42 PM	Except that with each +4 Wild Surge, you have a 20% chance of losing 11PP. So, 5 manifestations will cure 50HP but cost (on average) 16PP, for a total of 3.125 HP/PP. Thanks. I knew I'd forget something. It's still better than the psicrystal + vigor + empathic transfer combo, both in simplicity, HP/PP ratio, and the level you can get it (1st level with mantled wilder). It's worse than psicrystal + vigor + share pain, but it's much much simpler (requires few feats and powers known). Although really, and I don't know why I didn't think of this sooner, the best healing power is psionic dominate + troll + share pain.
CrimsonDeath 12-17-07, 07:06 PM	actually at +4 if you've taken 6 levels of wilder and 4 levels of anarchic, with the feat that halves pp loss, you only lose 3 power points every time you fail., if you really want to be cheap about it, instead of surge crazy take 10 levels of wilder and 10 levels of anarchic , and that feat and even into epic you will only have to pay 5 pp's every time you surge and fail. remember you only pp's = to your wilder level, not any other level you might have. And how do you plan to qualify for Anarchic Initiate with only ten levels of Wilder?
rilem 12-17-07, 08:28 PM	Take the FR feat Educated, I imagine.
pascalnz 12-18-07, 12:14 AM	oh the anrachic initiate pre req was a gross oversite. even the npc's created for it can't actually get the skill points. the greatest meber and founder is a lvl 10 wilder 10 initiate. they basically just plum forgot that wilders don't have that knowledge in class. if your dm is at all reasonable, he will let you take either another skill, up to that level or make you take knowledge the planes at cross class until your first level of AI then make you spend up to the required amount to qualify. actually taking a feat to get in is awfull . have a good read of the class and make sure your dm does too. It mentions all over the shop that wilders are the most likley to get into the class and that a wilder is more likley to know where one is etc etc , and of course the npc's they have can't work . let me know how you get on.
Tilakai 12-18-07, 08:04 AM	Psychic Enervation (Ex): Pushing oneself by invoking a wild surge is dangerous. Immediately following each wild surge, a wilder may be overcome by the strain of her effort. The chance of suffering psychic enervation is equal to 5% per manifester level added with the wild surge. A wilder who is overcome by psychic enervation is dazed until the end of her next turn and loses a number of power points equal to her wilder level. Wild Surge (Su): A wilder can let her passion and emotion rise to the surface in a wild surge when she manifests a power. During a wild surge, a wilder gains phenomenal psionic strength, but may harm herself by the reckless use of her power (see Psychic Enervation, below). A wilder can choose to invoke a wild surge whenever she manifests a power. When she does so, she gains +1 to her manifester level with that manifestation of the power. The manifester level boost gives her the ability to augment her powers to a higher degree than she otherwise could; however, she pays no extra power point for this wild surge. Instead, the additional 1 power point that would normally be required to augment the power is effectively supplied by the wild surge. Level-dependent power effects are also improved, depending on the power a wilder manifests with her wild surge. This improvement in manifester level does not grant her any other benefits (psicrystal abilities do not advance, she does not gain higher-level class abilities, and so on). She cannot use the Overchannel psionic feat and invoke her wild surge at the same time. At 3rd level, a wilder can choose to boost her manifester level by two instead of one. At 7th level, she can boost her manifester level by up to three; at 11th level, by up to four; at 15th level, by up to five; and at 19th level, by up to six.In all cases, the wild surge effectively pays the extra power point cost that is normally required to augment the power; only the unaugmented power point cost is subtracted from the wilder’s power point reserve. It seems that Wilders can at 20th level augment there ML by 6 levels at 5% a level manifested its a 30% chance. EDIT: lol dident quote the person Note that you should NEVER play a wilder beyond about 11th level. Ever. PrC if you can, and don't play a wilder if you can't. The reason for this (as you likely know quite well) is that as you gain in levels your chance of enervating increases until it reaches 100% (which is bad), and the number of pp you waste skyrockets. Very bad level design.
Fafnir 12-18-07, 08:31 AM	It seems that Wilders can at 20th level augment there ML by 6 levels at 5% a level manifested its a 30% chance. Yes, and...?
CrimsonDeath 12-18-07, 12:09 PM	It seems that Wilders can at 20th level augment there ML by 6 levels at 5% a level manifested its a 30% chance. EDIT: lol dident quote the person Wild Surge: The epic wilder's wild surge continues to increase after 20th level. At 23rd level and every four levels higher than 23rd, the wild surge continues to gain an additional +1 boost to manifester level when used" So a level 75 Wilder can Wild Surge for +20 ML and 100% chance of enervation.
Tilakai 12-18-07, 12:39 PM	Well epic dosent count :P lol Nothing says you need to boost to the max.
CrimsonDeath 12-18-07, 01:14 PM	Well epic dosent count :P lol Of course not. Not when including it would make you wrong. Nothing says you need to boost to the max. If you're not going to use a class feature, what's the point in progressing in the class that grants it?
jbsaff 12-18-07, 02:04 PM	Another good reason to use the variant in Untapped Potential. You always surge for max, but the chance of enervation is always 15%, IIRC.
JimProfit 12-18-07, 04:03 PM	Here's what I would do if I were a wilder. (Though i'd never play one without some added incentive..) Note I said this is what I would do, you don't have to take my advise, as my sense of the rules might be skewed anyway.. Level 1 Powers: Hammer: Normaly you could take mind-thrust, excellent power. Unfourtanatly wilders suffer from volatile mind, telepathy is something they cannot use without powerpoint exhaustion. So use hammer. Think of hammer as a martial art technique, you strike a vital area and deal 1d8 damage every round. Wildsurged, this thing can be a literal pain. Inertial Armor: Raising your AC bonus is very good at low levels. And you can cheat the system and wildsurge at low levels +1 manifestor level, thus avoid the 2pp augmenting cost and gain an extra hour of +5 AC. Atleast if i'm understanding wildsurge correctly. Lord knows it could afford to be better. Bolt:* *Get this if you're wielding a crossbow, longbow, or sling. This bassicaly makes +1 arrows/stones. And with a little augmentation can make it to +X. Vigor* *If you decided to go melee instead of ranged, take vigor. Vigor at a +1 wildsurge is going to give you 10 temporary hp! You're bassicaly twice your character level HP wise with well-planned vigor. Level 2: Energy Push*: As a wilder you're deffinitely going to want to be on the offenssive. This power is good if you're in range for a melee beatdown and want them to stepback, or if you got a ranged comrade and you can push him back for better aim. If you're not a melee grunt, don't worry about it. Energy Stun*: Pretty much energy push with a bit less damage and a better end result. (If they fail thier saving throws) The problem is most level 2 powers are telepathy based, and alot of the ones that aren't are redudndant to you. (Why would you take biofeedback if you have vigor?) If you don't have a ranged partner, don't worry about it. Egowhip: I'm bias, I love this power to death. The idea that i can kill someone by bringing thier charisma down to 0 or atleast leaving them a drooling vegetable intreagues me greatly. Mathamaticaly this power is better for the wilder then the psion if wildsurge works the way i keep saying it does. +4 pp to augment egowhip by another d4. At +6 wildsurge you're dealing 7d4 charisma damage with a 30% chance of losing 19pp if you're a 19th level wilder. (20pp if you're 20th level) As opposed to a psion who has to expend 24powerpoints to make it that powerful. This means that's it cheaper for you EVEN IF you're overcome with psychic enervation! Level 3: Body Adjustment: If wildsurge works like I think it does, there's absolutely no reason NOT to take this power. At the cost of 5pp and a wildsurge of +4, you're healing 4d12hp! Ofcourse it only works on yourself, but then you're a wilder. You don't have the time or resources to be looking out for other people.. Time Hop: This will be the most fun power for you if wildsurge works like i think it does. Immagine for five powerpoints being able to time hop a dragon two minutes in the future! (1 round=6 seconds) Doesn't sound like a whole lot, but by two minutes you can escape or have someone else use a power to teleport you the hell out of there. Level 4: Power Leech: Mathamaticaly this is a net-gain in powerpoints. And you can never have too many powerpoints! The only downside is not everyone has powerpoints, let alone enough to make this power worthwhile.. Dimension Door: This is bassicaly a cheapskate's game. I don't feel like spending 6 powerpoints to make this a move-action to escape a fight i can't win. So i'll take my chances (5%) of making this cost even more powerpoints. Level 5: Power Resistance/Psionic Planeshift: You expect me to pick powers that i can use to abuse wildsurge. Unfourtanately only psions are really selecting powers at level 5, the wilder's list is pretty slim, especialy when telepathy's not an option. These powers are still good, so don't rule'em out just cause you can't wildsurge them. Level 6: Fuse Flesh Bassicaly a more painful and effective hold person. Actively stunning and blinding/deafing them if they fail the second save. I would not reccomend surging this power, it's just handy to have. Breath of the Blackdragon: Not a very good power for wildsurging, as psychic enervation can make it much more expensive, but you have to ask yourself, are you willing to risk 30% of the time 20pp loss as opposed to 6pp loss for 17d6 acid damage? Hell, what you should do is wait till you're at the minimum pp requirement then use breath of the blackdragon and go out with a bang. You can't lose powerpoints you don't have heehee.. Level 7: I have no opinion, everything at level 7 seems to be predominately telepathic in nature. Everything else i could never see myself using.. Level 8: At your disgression, there's better powers then level 7, but none of them really use augmentation. So what's the point? Level 9: Like level 8 only with fewer selection of powers. As you can see, there's a curve for wilders. They're going to be "ok" at low-levels, sickos at medium level, then at later levels thier not doing anything really impressive besides mathamaticaly manifesting powers at a cheaper cost. But ofcourse psions have more options and more feats.
pascalnz 12-18-07, 05:32 PM	well manifesting at higher levels is sick:P, don't blow it off by saying mathematically higher and cheaper. about the only feats you will be spending on the wilder are means to lessen the impact of surge to almost nothing, and powers... hopefully using educated for some nice ones. I think through clever use of Ai you can get 7 levels of surge. that means you count as seven levels higher for SR and 7 levels higher for damge dice etc. it also makes any metapsionic feats you take work a lot better maxing or enhancing a power with 7 more dice. you can also summon the best astral construct for 7 less pp's a go. pick powers with feats and or educated variant. the choices are hard but you only need about three blasty powers out of all your choices. freeing the rest up for anyhting else. almost forgot using wildsurge, get dispell psionics as soon as possible, you can get +20 or so on the check rediculosly early with a wilder.
jbsaff 12-19-07, 05:13 PM	Level 1 Powers: Hammer: Normaly you could take mind-thrust, excellent power. Unfourtanatly wilders suffer from volatile mind, telepathy is something they cannot use without powerpoint exhaustion. So use hammer. Think of hammer as a martial art technique, you strike a vital area and deal 1d8 damage every round. Wildsurged, this thing can be a literal pain. Emphais mine. Whoa! I'm afraid you are severely selling the Wilder short with the bolded section. The Wilder doesn't suffer from Volatile Mind. It's a defense for the Wilder, not a penalty. It only penalizes others that manifest telepathy discipline powers on the Wilder. It has no effect on telepathy powers that the Wilder manifests. Of course, some would still argue that Mind Thrust was sub-optimal anyway because a Will save negates it, but that's another issue. Also, you already have Vigor, so how about getting Share Pain and using them with your psicrystal (you do have a psicrystal, right)? There are plenty of fun things to do as well (Metamorphosis with that higher manifester level you get from surging comes to mind). Lots of those ideas will benefit from some Expanded Knowledge feats or the Educated variant.
Lycanthromancer 12-19-07, 06:02 PM	Volatile mind doesn't allow for differences in just who manifests a telepathy power; ergo, unless houseruled, any telepathy powers the wilder manifests on himself also suffer from that class 'feature.'
jbsaff 12-19-07, 06:06 PM	Volatile mind doesn't allow for differences in just who manifests a telepathy power; ergo, unless houseruled, any telepathy powers the wilder manifests on himself also suffer from that class 'feature.' Correct, the feature is normally always on and isn't selective. However, As a standard action, a wilder can choose to lower this effect for 1 round. I just jumped straight down to the conclusion that Wilder's don't have to hurt themselves.
Lycanthromancer 12-19-07, 06:18 PM	It can be lowered for 1 round, but unless you use a move, swift, or immediate action to manifest a power, it's going to be up as soon as your next turn comes 'round. Thus, volatile mind still sucks.
pascalnz 12-19-07, 06:35 PM	volatile mind sucks anyway, it;'s jsut soo situational, swap it out for more powers known, the educated or trained or whater alternate class feature on the minds eye. I've also found it isn't excactly necassary to have a psi crystal, it is another feat, and the great thing about surge is that it is like doing meta psionics on every power. if you havce the feats to spend being a meta psi person vs a really good surge person, your most likley better off being a psion
JimProfit 12-19-07, 09:35 PM	Edit: Disregard this post, wrong topic.
jbsaff 12-20-07, 03:57 PM	It can be lowered for 1 round, but unless you use a move, swift, or immediate action to manifest a power, it's going to be up as soon as your next turn comes 'round. Thus, volatile mind still sucks. You'll get no arguement on that from me.
Pitiless_Interfector 12-22-07, 08:22 PM	You'll get no argument on that from me. Even with Volatile Escalation and Volatile Leech (and going up against a colony of Flayerspawn Psychics)? I'm thinking it would have been better if it was Wisdom damage instead of extra power points. And perhaps a feat that made unfortunate telepaths stunned on a failed save (DC 10 + 1/2 wilder level + Cha mod). Also, you could replace the Psychic Enervation class feature with the Emotional Instability class feature, which enhances the four basic emotions (anger, disgust, fear, and happiness): Fear: Any effect that would cause the shaken condition instead makes him frightened. Any effect that would make him frightened would make him panic. Any effect that would make him panic instead makes him cower. Any effect that would make him cower instead paralyzes him. Anger: Whenever he is dealt damage by an opponent (whether by an attack, a power, or a special ability), he must make a Will save (DC = damage dealt) or be forced to target the opponent with an attack or offensive power (or include him in the area, if using an AoE effect) as quickly as possible, taking necessary actions to do so (moving closer, regaining psionic focus via Psionic Meditation to Empower a power, delaying for an ally to step out of the way so you can charge him, etc.) if required. Disgust: Any effect that would cause you to be sickened instead makes you nauseated. Any effect that would make you nauseated instead makes you puke so hard you are unable to take any action for the duration of the nausea (effectively dazing you). Happiness: That Euphoric Reduction feat becomes an addition to your regular euphoria benefits, rather than replacing them in a decidedly crappy fashion.
CrimsonDeath 12-22-07, 11:22 PM	Even with Volatile Escalation and Volatile Leech (and going up against a colony of Flayerspawn Psychics)? If you have to go looking for situations when a class feature is useful, it's not useful. I'm thinking it would have been better if it was Wisdom damage instead of extra power points. And perhaps a feat that made unfortunate telepaths stunned on a failed save (DC 10 + 1/2 wilder level + Cha mod). That just makes it worse if you want to manifest Schism. Also, you could replace the Psychic Enervation class feature with the Emotional Instability class feature, which enhances the four basic emotions (anger, disgust, fear, and happiness): Fear: Any effect that would cause the shaken condition instead makes him frightened. Any effect that would make him frightened would make him panic. Any effect that would make him panic instead makes him cower. Any effect that would make him cower instead paralyzes him. Anger: Whenever he is dealt damage by an opponent (whether by an attack, a power, or a special ability), he must make a Will save (DC = damage dealt) or be forced to target the opponent with an attack or offensive power (or include him in the area, if using an AoE effect) as quickly as possible, taking necessary actions to do so (moving closer, regaining psionic focus via Psionic Meditation to Empower a power, delaying for an ally to step out of the way so you can charge him, etc.) if required. Disgust: Any effect that would cause you to be sickened instead makes you nauseated. Any effect that would make you nauseated instead makes you puke so hard you are unable to take any action for the duration of the nausea (effectively dazing you). Happiness: That Euphoric Reduction feat becomes an addition to your regular euphoria benefits, rather than replacing them in a decidedly crappy fashion. Okay, who's getting Frightened, Sickened, or attacked in those first three examples? The Wilder? Because I think I'd rather have Volatile Mind than a class feature that makes conditions I suffer even worse.
Nabuchadnezzar 12-24-07, 07:21 AM	After running some numbers a while back I found that the most pp efficient method of healing for a psion is share pain (psicrystal) + vigor (shared with psicrystal) + empathatic transfer on the injured party member. Share pain with the party member ahead of time if you can be assured of having vigor up in combat for a slightly more efficient route. What about manifesting "intellect fortress" too? Manifest (Extended) Share Pain several times: [Everyone] => Psycrystal, You => Psycrystal and Psycrystal => You At the start of the combat, manifest Vigor (shared with Psicrystal) Then, if an ally would take damage, manifest (augmented) Intellect Fortress: Damage from Share Pain is halved every time, and it continues to fall until the last damage dealt is equal to 1. For example: A is your protected guy, B is you psicrystal, C is you (psion). An Evil Barbarian hits A for (say) 200 damage. A takes 100. The other 100 would be taken by the Psicrystal, but it's first halved by intellect fortress to 50, then halved by share pain with the psion to 25. The Psion would take 25 damage, but this damage is first halved by intellect fortress to 12, then halved by share pain with the psicrystal to 6. The Psicrystal would take 6 dmage, but it's first halved by intellect fortress to 3, then halved by share pain to 1. Total damage dealt to A: 100 Total damage dealt to B: 26 Total damage dealt to C: 6 Total damage negated (N): 68 Maybe I am wrong in rounding up/down, but you can easily calculate once and for all which percentage of damage would be taken from A, B and C, if you start with say 1'000'000 damage :D The same calculations could be done if damage is dealt by powers and/or to the Psion directly. I made the calculations: Column 1: Weapon against Ally Column 2: Weapon against Psion Column 3: Power against Ally Column 4: Power against Psion Column 5: Weapon/Power against Ally (no Intellect fortress, flat-footed?) Column 6: Weapon/Power against Psion (no Intellect fortress, flat-footed?) A = Ally B = Psicrystal C = Psion N = Negated %A 50.00% 0.00% 25.00% 0.00% 50.00% 0.00% %B 13.33% 13.33% 6.67% 6.67% 33.33% 33.33% %C 3.33% 53.33% 1.67% 26.67% 16.67% 66.67% %N 33.33% 33.33% 66.67% 66.67% 0.00% 0.00% Fraction(A) 1/2 0 1/4 0 1/2 0 Fraction(B) 4/30 4/30 1/15 1/15 1/3 1/3 Fraction(C) 1/30 8/15 1/60 4/15 1/6 2/3 Fraction(N) 1/3 1/3 2/3 2/3 0 0
archerpwr 12-24-07, 12:20 PM	What about manifesting "intellect fortress" too? I haven't gotten a chance to run the numbers level by level, but I didn't include that in my original calculations. A hunch says that over the course of 3+ rounds the ratio gets better with intellect fortress.
Pitiless_Interfector 12-26-07, 03:18 AM	Okay, who's getting Frightened, Sickened, or attacked in those first three examples? The Wilder? Because I think I'd rather have Volatile Mind than a class feature that makes conditions I suffer even worse. Even if that feature replaced Psychic Enervation instead of Volatile Mind?
CrimsonDeath 12-26-07, 06:43 PM	Even if that feature replaced Psychic Enervation instead of Volatile Mind? In that case, I'm not sure it's enough of a drawback to make Wild Surge risky. Not really sure whether that would be a good thing or a bad thing.