Wilder? [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Wilder? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
NHBDY
06-03-07, 12:47 PM I know this is going to sound noobish, but is wilder a broken class (meaning that it is over/underpowered), i ask because i never hear about them.
Thanks

:bump: :bounce: :pile: :invasion:
:heehee:
Thomar_of_Uointer
06-03-07, 01:16 PM The wilder's strengths (mostly the wild surge because it lets them break the manifester level cap) are offset by its weaknesses (very few powers, enervation gets worse and worse at higher levels). It's a perfectly balanced primary manifester class (one reason you don't hear much about it), and the sorcerer could learn something from its design. There was a post a while back analysing wild surge, on average it breaks even at level 20, and gets worse as you get into epic levels. You don't hear people asking what powers to learn as a wilder because the choices are so simple due to the small selection.

This is not a noobish question. The smilies are noobish, though.
BloodyChariot
06-03-07, 01:20 PM More than a few people think the wilder is underpowered because of its extremely limited power selection. However, the wilder has a pretty decent skill selection, BAB and proficiences. If you think of a wilder as nothing more than a manifester, then sure, it may be a little underpowered. But if you think of a wilder as a character - look at it holistically, because there's more to D&D than just manifesting - then it's a pretty solid class.

ps: please lay off all those smilies. It's kind of annoying and a bit of an eyesore.

EDIT: yarr, Thomar beat me to it. But I have links for you now: check this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=487972)and this (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-334495.html)out.
Antendren
06-03-07, 03:43 PM the sorcerer could learn something from its design.I don't think that comparing the Wilder and the Sorcerer is appropriate; the Wilder is not the Psionic-Sorcerer.

Sorcerers get fewer spells known, but in return can use them spontaneously and more often. Wilders get fewer powers known, but in return can make them more powerful. They don't get to use them more often (except at low levels), and spontaneous manifesting is already the norm in psionics.
NHBDY
06-03-07, 03:59 PM what race do you recomend?
BloodyChariot
06-03-07, 04:44 PM Human. The extra feat goes a long way. If you end up focusing on social powers and skills, be a Kalashtar.
InkBlot
06-03-07, 06:22 PM You might also want to ask your DM to allow you to play one of the variant Wilders, from The Mind's Eye (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) (scroll down).
Shado
06-03-07, 06:46 PM Wilder's pretty fun, and has some great options with the Mind's Eye (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) PHB II article.

The Educated Wilder is a must take feature. It's almost like getting the Expanded Knowledge feat for free 4 times.

If your DM allows it, you pretty much must take the Hidden Talent feat at 1st level. It's Expanded Knowledge plus 2 power points!

Plan out every power you plan on taking, and then compare your list to the Mantle power lists. Mantled Wilder is a hit or miss, but if the powers fit your concept, the option can be a boon.

Keep yourself versatile. Choose powers that you can Wild surge with! (It's often forgotten that you can only pay for the augment with Wild Surge... not the base cost.) Enervation Endurance is a strong suggestion for feat choice as well.
Particle_Man
06-03-07, 07:57 PM You can also totally change the flavour text.

A Witch that can gain incredible power, but occasionally has the Devil she worships attempt to claim her soul a little early (another way of thinking of enervation - it is the fight to keep her soul in her body that exhausts her). As the Wilder gets more powerful, the Devil gets hungrier for her soul (thus a higher cost in pp when she suffers enervation).

Nice dichotomy with the Psion (Gem Wizard), eh?

I like using Expanded Knowledge to get Astral Construct. Even if you are dazed, the souped up AC can still kick the crap out of your opponents.
Lycanthromancer
06-03-07, 10:44 PM I was thinking of making a wilder build using a warforged.

Yes, a warforged. They get a -2 to Cha, but if you get metamorphosis, you can turn into a construct (which are immune to stunning). If you multiclass with egoist correctly, and get some anarchic initiate love, you could do some very interesting things with a warforged egoist/wilder (only one level in wilder, for the prereqs, then anarchic initiate all the way, baby!).
The_Ditto
06-04-07, 09:44 AM (only one level in wilder, for the prereqs, then anarchic initiate all the way, baby!).

What pre-reqs? Psion with overchannel qualifies for anarchic initiate easier than Wilder does ... ;)
Lycanthromancer
06-04-07, 03:27 PM Yes, but wild surge actually stacks with the ai's class abilities, and Overchannel (aside from some slight overlap) doesn't. I'd rather lose out on one actual manifester level and gain +3 to my virtual manifester level (via wild surge), and only lose 1 pp with no other downside (as I'm metamorphosis'd into a construct) than take lots of damage for Overchanneling. That, and if you take wilder as your first level, and take a power that's extremely useful without augmentation (ie, entangling ectoplasm), then you gain more hp, 8 more skill points, and if you wild surge most of your manifestations, you can gain more 'phantom' power points than you would have gained had you taken the extra psion level. And you are, at most, 1 power behind when it comes to number of powers known (after first level).

So, take wilder 1/psion 4/anarchic initiate 10/psion 5. If you head into epic, take one last level in psion, then start taking a few more levels in wilder and take practiced manifester before finding a dual-manifester PrC (I know there's one out there somewhere). This'll raise your pp to rather high levels. If you do it right, you can even take some psychic warrior levels post-epic, and start taking lots of epic feats.
Antendren
06-04-07, 08:43 PM only lose 1 pp with no other downside (as I'm metamorphosis'd into a construct)This doesn't work at all. Enervation causes Daze, not Stun, and constructs are quite vulnerable to that. Everyone is, in fact. The only ways I know to get immunity to that are Favor of Ilmater and Mark of the Dauntless. There's also a feat in LoM to mitigate it.
The_Ditto
06-05-07, 09:48 AM so gain +2 to ML ..
Or gain +3 to ML and lose 1 ML ?
:confused:

Same thing ... and you get less PP by not taking another level of psion ...
... and lose more Powers ...

(although you do get a better HD, and some weapon and armor profs ... :P )
klode_me
06-05-07, 10:12 AM They get a -2 to Cha, but if you get metamorphosis, you can turn into a construct (which are immune to stunning).

This doesn't negate the dazed condition for using wild surge in an unlucky moment because nearly nothing negates daze, not even constructs and undeads are immune to it... only the stronger version stun can be negated in a lot of ways.

I think it's a perfectly balanced class, especially with the educated wilder variant.
But I also liked it when it had few powers and lot's of PP, you can always temporarily borrow the knowledge of a power if you have 1 or 3 other psions in you party(the boon with psionics)... I also suggest the enervating endurance feat from CPsi.
I've also always liked the flavor, a wild untamed mind with powers beyond it's own comprehension... well the psion is also cool, with the studying and understanding of the mind, but that's another story :emp:

cheers
SlanderPanic
06-05-07, 12:41 PM I was under the impression that a wilder could only surge when manifesting powers he gains from wilder levels and using his wilder manifester level. I don't know about anyone else here, but it makes sense to me. Otherwise, we'd see a lot more psion/wilder combos out there.
Lycanthromancer
06-05-07, 12:42 PM Gah. My mistake.

Ah well. It's human for me, then, as I'd rather have the feat anyway (though 'morphing into a construct using metamorphosis is exceptionally useful against undead, don'chaknow).

[edit] Nope. You can surge on any power you know. I had a build going into epic that hit the wilder 1/egoist 5/anarchic initiate 10 (egoist MLs)/egoist 5, which gets quite a bit of energy going for an "archer" build using rays and the Split Psionic Ray feat. If I could find that PrC that allows you to progress in two classes at a time, I'd rather do that, really, then end up with an additional wilder 2/PrC-that-progresses-two-psionic-classes-at-a-time to get lots of power points.

Sound good?
CrimsonDeath
06-05-07, 03:13 PM You mean, like, a psionic Ultimate Magus?
hovnarr
06-05-07, 03:22 PM (though 'morphing into a construct using metamorphosis is exceptionally useful against undead, don'chaknow).

Not only undead, but also anything that uses [death], [mind-affecting], stuns, sneak attacks, nasty crit effects etc. The good news is, you can just choose a defensive metamorphosis form instead and have an astral construct do the actual fighting there. No need to actually be the construct yourself. You could even morph into an object if you really needed the immunities (invisible pixie usually cuts it though).
kyeudo
06-05-07, 08:03 PM I was under the impression that a wilder could only surge when manifesting powers he gains from wilder levels and using his wilder manifester level. I don't know about anyone else here, but it makes sense to me. Otherwise, we'd see a lot more psion/wilder combos out there.

From the SRD

A wilder can choose to invoke a wild surge whenever she manifests a power. When she does so, she gains +1 to her manifester level with that manifestation of the power. The manifester level boost gives her the ability to augment her powers to a higher degree than she otherwise could; however, she pays no extra power point for this wild surge. Instead, the additional 1 power point that would normally be required to augment the power is effectively supplied by the wild surge.
Level-dependent power effects are also improved, depending on the power a wilder manifests with her wild surge.
This improvement in manifester level does not grant her any other benefits (psicrystal abilities do not advance, she does not gain higher-level class abilities, and so on).

Wild Surge can be activated whenever you manifest a power, not whenever you manifest a wilder power, so a wilder/psion could boost his psion powers using wild surge.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
NHBDY 06-03-07, 12:47 PM	I know this is going to sound noobish, but is wilder a broken class (meaning that it is over/underpowered), i ask because i never hear about them. Thanks :bump: :bounce: :pile: :invasion: :heehee:
Thomar_of_Uointer 06-03-07, 01:16 PM	The wilder's strengths (mostly the wild surge because it lets them break the manifester level cap) are offset by its weaknesses (very few powers, enervation gets worse and worse at higher levels). It's a perfectly balanced primary manifester class (one reason you don't hear much about it), and the sorcerer could learn something from its design. There was a post a while back analysing wild surge, on average it breaks even at level 20, and gets worse as you get into epic levels. You don't hear people asking what powers to learn as a wilder because the choices are so simple due to the small selection. This is not a noobish question. The smilies are noobish, though.
BloodyChariot 06-03-07, 01:20 PM	More than a few people think the wilder is underpowered because of its extremely limited power selection. However, the wilder has a pretty decent skill selection, BAB and proficiences. If you think of a wilder as nothing more than a manifester, then sure, it may be a little underpowered. But if you think of a wilder as a character - look at it holistically, because there's more to D&D than just manifesting - then it's a pretty solid class. ps: please lay off all those smilies. It's kind of annoying and a bit of an eyesore. EDIT: yarr, Thomar beat me to it. But I have links for you now: check this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=487972)and this (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-334495.html)out.
Antendren 06-03-07, 03:43 PM	the sorcerer could learn something from its design.I don't think that comparing the Wilder and the Sorcerer is appropriate; the Wilder is not the Psionic-Sorcerer. Sorcerers get fewer spells known, but in return can use them spontaneously and more often. Wilders get fewer powers known, but in return can make them more powerful. They don't get to use them more often (except at low levels), and spontaneous manifesting is already the norm in psionics.
NHBDY 06-03-07, 03:59 PM	what race do you recomend?
BloodyChariot 06-03-07, 04:44 PM	Human. The extra feat goes a long way. If you end up focusing on social powers and skills, be a Kalashtar.
InkBlot 06-03-07, 06:22 PM	You might also want to ask your DM to allow you to play one of the variant Wilders, from The Mind's Eye (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) (scroll down).
Shado 06-03-07, 06:46 PM	Wilder's pretty fun, and has some great options with the Mind's Eye (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) PHB II article. The Educated Wilder is a must take feature. It's almost like getting the Expanded Knowledge feat for free 4 times. If your DM allows it, you pretty much must take the Hidden Talent feat at 1st level. It's Expanded Knowledge plus 2 power points! Plan out every power you plan on taking, and then compare your list to the Mantle power lists. Mantled Wilder is a hit or miss, but if the powers fit your concept, the option can be a boon. Keep yourself versatile. Choose powers that you can Wild surge with! (It's often forgotten that you can only pay for the augment with Wild Surge... not the base cost.) Enervation Endurance is a strong suggestion for feat choice as well.
Particle_Man 06-03-07, 07:57 PM	You can also totally change the flavour text. A Witch that can gain incredible power, but occasionally has the Devil she worships attempt to claim her soul a little early (another way of thinking of enervation - it is the fight to keep her soul in her body that exhausts her). As the Wilder gets more powerful, the Devil gets hungrier for her soul (thus a higher cost in pp when she suffers enervation). Nice dichotomy with the Psion (Gem Wizard), eh? I like using Expanded Knowledge to get Astral Construct. Even if you are dazed, the souped up AC can still kick the crap out of your opponents.
Lycanthromancer 06-03-07, 10:44 PM	I was thinking of making a wilder build using a warforged. Yes, a warforged. They get a -2 to Cha, but if you get metamorphosis, you can turn into a construct (which are immune to stunning). If you multiclass with egoist correctly, and get some anarchic initiate love, you could do some very interesting things with a warforged egoist/wilder (only one level in wilder, for the prereqs, then anarchic initiate all the way, baby!).
The_Ditto 06-04-07, 09:44 AM	(only one level in wilder, for the prereqs, then anarchic initiate all the way, baby!). What pre-reqs? Psion with overchannel qualifies for anarchic initiate easier than Wilder does ... ;)
Lycanthromancer 06-04-07, 03:27 PM	Yes, but wild surge actually stacks with the ai's class abilities, and Overchannel (aside from some slight overlap) doesn't. I'd rather lose out on one actual manifester level and gain +3 to my virtual manifester level (via wild surge), and only lose 1 pp with no other downside (as I'm metamorphosis'd into a construct) than take lots of damage for Overchanneling. That, and if you take wilder as your first level, and take a power that's extremely useful without augmentation (ie, entangling ectoplasm), then you gain more hp, 8 more skill points, and if you wild surge most of your manifestations, you can gain more 'phantom' power points than you would have gained had you taken the extra psion level. And you are, at most, 1 power behind when it comes to number of powers known (after first level). So, take wilder 1/psion 4/anarchic initiate 10/psion 5. If you head into epic, take one last level in psion, then start taking a few more levels in wilder and take practiced manifester before finding a dual-manifester PrC (I know there's one out there somewhere). This'll raise your pp to rather high levels. If you do it right, you can even take some psychic warrior levels post-epic, and start taking lots of epic feats.
Antendren 06-04-07, 08:43 PM	only lose 1 pp with no other downside (as I'm metamorphosis'd into a construct)This doesn't work at all. Enervation causes Daze, not Stun, and constructs are quite vulnerable to that. Everyone is, in fact. The only ways I know to get immunity to that are Favor of Ilmater and Mark of the Dauntless. There's also a feat in LoM to mitigate it.
The_Ditto 06-05-07, 09:48 AM	so gain +2 to ML .. Or gain +3 to ML and lose 1 ML ? :confused: Same thing ... and you get less PP by not taking another level of psion ... ... and lose more Powers ... (although you do get a better HD, and some weapon and armor profs ... :P )
klode_me 06-05-07, 10:12 AM	They get a -2 to Cha, but if you get metamorphosis, you can turn into a construct (which are immune to stunning). This doesn't negate the dazed condition for using wild surge in an unlucky moment because nearly nothing negates daze, not even constructs and undeads are immune to it... only the stronger version stun can be negated in a lot of ways. I think it's a perfectly balanced class, especially with the educated wilder variant. But I also liked it when it had few powers and lot's of PP, you can always temporarily borrow the knowledge of a power if you have 1 or 3 other psions in you party(the boon with psionics)... I also suggest the enervating endurance feat from CPsi. I've also always liked the flavor, a wild untamed mind with powers beyond it's own comprehension... well the psion is also cool, with the studying and understanding of the mind, but that's another story :emp: cheers
SlanderPanic 06-05-07, 12:41 PM	I was under the impression that a wilder could only surge when manifesting powers he gains from wilder levels and using his wilder manifester level. I don't know about anyone else here, but it makes sense to me. Otherwise, we'd see a lot more psion/wilder combos out there.
Lycanthromancer 06-05-07, 12:42 PM	Gah. My mistake. Ah well. It's human for me, then, as I'd rather have the feat anyway (though 'morphing into a construct using metamorphosis is exceptionally useful against undead, don'chaknow). [edit] Nope. You can surge on any power you know. I had a build going into epic that hit the wilder 1/egoist 5/anarchic initiate 10 (egoist MLs)/egoist 5, which gets quite a bit of energy going for an "archer" build using rays and the Split Psionic Ray feat. If I could find that PrC that allows you to progress in two classes at a time, I'd rather do that, really, then end up with an additional wilder 2/PrC-that-progresses-two-psionic-classes-at-a-time to get lots of power points. Sound good?
CrimsonDeath 06-05-07, 03:13 PM	You mean, like, a psionic Ultimate Magus?
hovnarr 06-05-07, 03:22 PM	(though 'morphing into a construct using metamorphosis is exceptionally useful against undead, don'chaknow). Not only undead, but also anything that uses [death], [mind-affecting], stuns, sneak attacks, nasty crit effects etc. The good news is, you can just choose a defensive metamorphosis form instead and have an astral construct do the actual fighting there. No need to actually be the construct yourself. You could even morph into an object if you really needed the immunities (invisible pixie usually cuts it though).
kyeudo 06-05-07, 08:03 PM	I was under the impression that a wilder could only surge when manifesting powers he gains from wilder levels and using his wilder manifester level. I don't know about anyone else here, but it makes sense to me. Otherwise, we'd see a lot more psion/wilder combos out there. From the SRD A wilder can choose to invoke a wild surge whenever she manifests a power. When she does so, she gains +1 to her manifester level with that manifestation of the power. The manifester level boost gives her the ability to augment her powers to a higher degree than she otherwise could; however, she pays no extra power point for this wild surge. Instead, the additional 1 power point that would normally be required to augment the power is effectively supplied by the wild surge. Level-dependent power effects are also improved, depending on the power a wilder manifests with her wild surge. This improvement in manifester level does not grant her any other benefits (psicrystal abilities do not advance, she does not gain higher-level class abilities, and so on). Wild Surge can be activated whenever you manifest a power, not whenever you manifest a wilder power, so a wilder/psion could boost his psion powers using wild surge.