Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Enchanter_Tom 11-27-07, 01:25 AM	Let's pretend for a moment that the only psions in 4e will be "wizards [or another type of caster] with the serial numbers filed off". The "psionic power" is really arcane or divine, but 4e gives you the option of having certain things "flavorized" into psionics, such as not using verbal/somatic/material components. Would you be happy, or would you want an entirely new system? If you would want psionics to be a separate system, why would you want it to be so?
Millenia 11-27-07, 04:35 AM	If psionics is just magic with different flavor, I wouldn't care as long as there is point usage and augmentation to some extent or another.
Sunrider 11-27-07, 06:16 AM	Dunno why they'd do that - it's easy enough to simply specify a 'psionic' power source in addition to the other three. Not that discussion of 'power sources' is really necessary anyway, from a mechanical point of view. Really, it's more 'fluff' than anything. It would be far better simply not to mention the power source of anything (except divine spells of clerics and other divine champions) and leave the discussion of 'power source' up to the person playing the character. After all, does an individual warrior's prowess in battle come from extensive martial training or her own hatred for her enemies? Perhaps a combination of the two? Specifying power sources narrows the choice of character backgrounds and descriptions without adding anything to the game mechanically; much better to leave it open. But, yes, I would be very unhappy if they said Psionics were simply a variation of arcane or divine power (particularly divine) - not only is the description totally unnecessary and very limiting in terms of character concept, but it isn't even difficult to specify a separate power source! Depending on setting, my psions/wilders utilise the power of the mind or have learned to/can innately manipulate the fabric of the Multiverse that ties all creatures and objects together, not derive power from a god/other divine source or follow a mechanical formula to create an effect.
Think0028 11-27-07, 10:25 AM	Just for the record, they have already announced that it will NOT be a wizard sans serial numbers. Repeat, it will NOT be.
Enchanter_Tom 11-27-07, 03:02 PM	Just for the record, they have already announced that it will NOT be a wizard sans serial numbers. Repeat, it will NOT be. Yes, I know. Furthermore, my interest in "filing off the serial numbers" would be to avoid the complexity--and expenditures--associated with a completely different magic system.
Enchanter_Tom 11-27-07, 11:27 PM	Want more opinions.
CrimsonDeath 11-28-07, 12:51 AM	Want more opinions. Way ahead of you. I've been wanting more options for years.
Enchanter_Tom 11-28-07, 04:36 AM	Way ahead of you. I've been wanting more options for years. Then you're best off moving on from D&D. I like BESM, myself, although it's so inherently broken that it confuses me. Well, third edition is, at least.
Think0028 11-28-07, 10:24 AM	My personal favorite for options is GURPS 4th edition, especially since the number of books needed is very low. Anyways, on the original topic: I'd say it depends. If there was some small difference between arcane and psionics but both used the same fundamental systems, I'd like it.
Bacris 11-28-07, 10:44 AM	If the differences between Arcane power source and Psionic power source is equivalent to the differences between Arcane power source and Divine power source, I'll be happy... as long as any Vancian style is not part of the Psionic power source (or easily removed). I absolutely abhor the Gygaxian / Vancian spell slot system and if the Psionic power source options in 4E have it in any way, I will be writing my own variant within a week of getting my hands on the psionic ruleset for 4E.
CrimsonDeath 11-28-07, 01:27 PM	Then you're best off moving on from D&D. I like BESM, myself, although it's so inherently broken that it confuses me. Well, third edition is, at least. Allow me to explain. You said "Want more options." Since that sentence doesn't have a subject, I assumed it was in the imperative voice, with an implied "you" as the subject. Which is to say, I assumed that you were instructing us to want more options. It was a joke about grammar.
Enchanter_Tom 11-28-07, 05:11 PM	Allow me to explain. You said "Want more options." Since that sentence doesn't have a subject, I assumed it was in the imperative voice, with an implied "you" as the subject. Which is to say, I assumed that you were instructing us to want more options. It was a joke about grammar. Yes, I realized it was a joke.
Pitiless_Interfector 11-28-07, 05:28 PM	Want more opinions. Way ahead of you. I've been wanting more options for years. He said he wanted more opinions, not options. (Thus making the whole back-and-forth infinitely funnier for uninvolved 3rd parties)
CrimsonDeath 11-28-07, 06:50 PM	He said he wanted more opinions, not options. (Thus making the whole back-and-forth infinitely funnier for uninvolved 3rd parties) I aim to shoot. I mean "please".
Enchanter_Tom 11-29-07, 04:17 AM	Good grief.
Lycanthromancer 11-29-07, 12:08 PM	Since the serial numbers are being filed off of wizards, does that mean we get to dismember them and sell them for parts? Because, y'know, I'm all for that.
Lokathor 11-29-07, 02:15 PM	Psi will appear sometime and it will be a different power source. They design arcane and divine magic so that psi can fit in. Power over mind will be the main (or a flagship) feature of psi, thus charms are going to be nerfed (the avoid too much overlap). That's from the guy who got the "Races and Classes" book early, among other things he said. The info was collected on the Enworld news update, along with the thread that the "view post" link takes you back to.
tyrecian 11-29-07, 02:51 PM	what is a wizard sans serial numbers? are you referring to the fact that there are going to be spell points in 4e? no more spells/day memorizing? u lost me with the serial number bit... hehe :D
CrimsonDeath 11-29-07, 07:52 PM	what is a wizard sans serial numbers? are you referring to the fact that there are going to be spell points in 4e? no more spells/day memorizing? u lost me with the serial number bit... hehe :D I believe "sans" is French for "without". "The Psion is a Wizard without serial numbers" means "The Psion? He does all the things a Wizard does, and does them all the same way a Wizard does them, but he's called a Psion."
Enchanter_Tom 11-30-07, 03:45 PM	what is a wizard sans serial numbers? are you referring to the fact that there are going to be spell points in 4e? no more spells/day memorizing? u lost me with the serial number bit... hehe :D The entire phrase is a term I've seen bandied about on here before. Basically, a "wizard sans serial numbers" is--in my mind, and from what I can extrapolate--a wizard who is reflavored for psionics without changing any mechanics. For instance, he might rename power word: stun as mind blast or somesuch.
Bacris 11-30-07, 04:32 PM	It's a reference to a quote of Bruce R Cordell's about playtesting a "psion", who was mechanically a wizard, but with a psion's flavor, because psionics for 4E wasn't ready when playtesting began.
Enchanter_Tom 11-30-07, 04:46 PM	It's a reference to a quote of Bruce R Cordell's about playtesting a "psion", who was mechanically a wizard, but with a psion's flavor, because psionics for 4E wasn't ready when playtesting began. Yes, it is. I was just clarifying it.
Bacris 11-30-07, 09:47 PM	Yes, it is. I was just clarifying it. Except to me, it didn't really clarify what it meant. :) Hence my post responding to tyrecian.
Enchanter_Tom 12-01-07, 03:04 AM	The entire phrase is a term I've seen bandied about on here before. Basically, a "wizard sans serial numbers" is--in my mind, and from what I can extrapolate--a wizard who is reflavored for psionics without changing any mechanics. For instance, he might rename power word: stun as mind blast or somesuch. ._.
The_Mess 12-01-07, 01:35 PM	Would you be happy, or would you want an entirely new system? If you would want psionics to be a separate system, why would you want it to be so? I have two ways to look at that question. I've never *really* been happy with the psionics system as a psionics system. I think the psionics system is a much better magical system than the magic systems of 3.0/3.5, which is why I rarely play slot-caster types and usually play psionics when I can get away with it (current DM doesn't like psionics *weeps*). However, it's just that the psionics system has never felt like psionics to me, especially at low levels. Psychics and telekinetics just don't feel right as a limited resource. A first level telekinetic that can only pick up an object about 5 times a day? Just not the right feel. Essentially, I'd really want psionics to be more akin to the Warlock, less raw power, but unlimited usage.
Haldrik 12-01-07, 02:56 PM	Mess, do you mean, you want Psionics to remain an alternative mechanic that can do anything Arcane can? For me, in the past, there was an extreme need for an alternative to the Vancian spell casting system. Finally, finally, finally, the XPH fulfilled this need, and brilliantly. However in the future 4e, the Vancian spellcasting will be gone for all classes. The XPH which was calibrated to carefully match the Vancian system will also be gone. The new system seems superior in every way. Spells per day, per encounter, and at will feel powerful, simple, and spontaneously natural in a way that especially appeals to Psi-philes. The way I look at it is, 4e hasnt replaced Psionics. Rather, 4e is when Psionics replaces everything else. And with the dismissal of Vancian spellcasting, Psionics no longer has to calibrate for Vancian, and can take its true form: per day, per encounter, and at will. For me, the new "power sources", like Arcane, Divine, and Martial, are just new names for Psionic disciplines. The new Martial power source matches many of the basic abilities of the Psychic Warrior. Basically, the Martial power source channels psychic energy thru the body, similar to the way Martial Arts do. The name "Psionic" will remain in 4e to represent the current Psionic disciplines of Telepathy and Psychokinesis and the Arcane schools of Enchantment and Illusion.
The_Mess 12-01-07, 10:41 PM	From what I've seen of the new system, I'm giving it a tentative thumbs up. I don't need a separate psionics system when the base system is that flexible. The per-day/per-encounter/at-will ability seems incredibly flexible, as demonstrated by the fact that it's already been adapted to everything from Clerics and Wizards to Paladins, Fighters, and Rogues. But, you're right, the Psionic system seems, in part, to have taken over D&D, and I for one couldn't be more thrilled. I've liked nearly everything I've seen of 4E so far. I'm willing to wait and see what the creators come up with. I just wish it was coming out before all those boring fighters and wizards!