Post/Author/DateTime	Post
celestialkin 02-02-08, 03:16 PM	Hey guys. Been a while since I dropped by the Psionics forum. :) I have been thinking about this question for a while. Would a single lavel of Expert (from the DMG) at first level benefit a Psion? If not, would it at least make things more fun and interesting? Usually when I played a Psion (my favorite class ever!) I always had a ton of skill points which I could not do anything with, and I usually just threw them into random knowledges, which I knew I would never actualy use, just to use them up. Being someone who loves the 3.5 skill system that was always a bit disappointing, since I like playing skill monkeys (hence my like for rogues). This got me wondering if taking a level of Expert from the DMG would let me use a Psion in a whole new way. Basically, from what I understand the Expert from the DMG is not meant to be a PC class, but instead is meant to be used for NPC crafters. It lets you choose 12 skills of your choice to have as class skills and you have a large number of starting skill points. Based on this I figured that once I progressed as a Psion (2nd-20th level) I could use all those leftover skill points for anything from handle animal to diplomacy to slight of hand to speak languages (Psions have such a limited skill selection). Has anyone here tried this before? Has anyone here tried something similar before? Did it work out? Was it fun? Is it worth losing a whole level of manifesting? As always, thanks in advance for any and all advice!
Saiyamantis 02-02-08, 04:05 PM	If you want a skill monkey psion, take one level of Factotum, and take the feat from Races of Destiny that gives makes all skills cost one point per rank. You now now have every skill in the game as a class skill forever, including those that haven't been printed yet.
hogarth 02-02-08, 10:53 PM	Has anyone here tried this before? Has anyone here tried something similar before? Did it work out? Was it fun? Is it worth losing a whole level of manifesting? In the Core Coliseum I've tried a psion with one level of cleric (with the Magic domain to use wizard/cleric scrolls and wands) and I've considered trying a psion with one level of bard (for using wands of CLW, scrolls of Alter Self or Mirror Image and for the good skill list). And I'm sure I'm not the only one here who has tried a psion with at least one level of ranger (to get into the Illithid Slayer class). I thought it worked out O.K. in the case of the cleric/psion; she used a wand of Magic Missile and scrolls of Sleep, Color Spray, etc. at low levels, then when she hit level 6 she took the feat Metamorphic Transfer and used scrolls of Alter Self to turn into a Choker (she was an Elan). Expert seems like a poor choice compared to bard, ranger, swordsage (same skill points + spellcasting/maneuvers) or rogue (no spellcasting, but more skill points), however.
celestialkin 02-03-08, 12:00 AM	In the Core Coliseum I've tried a psion with one level of cleric (with the Magic domain to use wizard/cleric scrolls and wands) and I've considered trying a psion with one level of bard (for using wands of CLW, scrolls of Alter Self or Mirror Image and for the good skill list). And I'm sure I'm not the only one here who has tried a psion with at least one level of ranger (to get into the Illithid Slayer class). I thought it worked out O.K. in the case of the cleric/psion; she used a wand of Magic Missile and scrolls of Sleep, Color Spray, etc. at low levels, then when she hit level 6 she took the feat Metamorphic Transfer and used scrolls of Alter Self to turn into a Choker (she was an Elan). Expert seems like a poor choice compared to bard, ranger, swordsage (same skill points + spellcasting/maneuvers) or rogue (no spellcasting, but more skill points), however. Well I am not a fan of spellcasting, and the benefits of those other classes would probably go to waste since I will probably never use them, or they might get in the way of me focusing on the Psion. If you want a skill monkey psion, take one level of Factotum, and take the feat from Races of Destiny that gives makes all skills cost one point per rank. You now now have every skill in the game as a class skill forever, including those that haven't been printed yet. I just looked the class up in a friend's book and it seems like an interesting idea. Just one question. Why would I need to take that feat if the class already allows access to all skills?
Bacris 02-03-08, 12:44 AM	Unless there's something I missed regarding multiclassing, just because it was once a class skill doesn't mean it stays a class skill. So while your max ranks will be level + 3, skills not on your CURRENT class list would still cost 2 skill points for 1 rank. Hence why you'd want that feat.
celestialkin 02-03-08, 01:03 AM	Unless there's something I missed regarding multiclassing, just because it was once a class skill doesn't mean it stays a class skill. So while your max ranks will be level + 3, skills not on your CURRENT class list would still cost 2 skill points for 1 rank. Hence why you'd want that feat. Oh...I see. Forgive my newbness, but in this case there really would not be much point in multiclassing my Psion would there? And if I remember correctly that feat only works for humans (which I find ridiculous!), so there is no way of getting my skill oriented Psion. :(
Saiyamantis 02-03-08, 01:47 AM	Oh...I see. Forgive my newbness, but in this case there really would not be much point in multiclassing my Psion would there? And if I remember correctly that feat only works for humans (which I find ridiculous!), so there is no way of getting my skill oriented Psion. :( As long as a skill is a class skill for one of your classes, it follows the class skill rules for maximum ranks. It'll cost more without the Able Learner feat, but a factotum dip will still let you be the only shaper with max ranks in Iajutsu Focus.
StruckingFuggle 02-03-08, 01:58 AM	As long as a skill is a class skill for one of your classes, it follows the class skill rules for maximum ranks. I don't disagree, but I'll be buggered if I can remember where I read that originally. Got a citation for that?
InkBlot 02-03-08, 02:05 AM	It's in the Player's Handbook. Page 59, under Skills under Multiclass Characters. Skills: If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass character's classes, then character level determines a skill's maximum rank.
hogarth 02-03-08, 12:05 PM	Well I am not a fan of spellcasting, and the benefits of those other classes would probably go to waste since I will probably never use them, or they might get in the way of me focusing on the Psion. I guess I'd rather have an ability and not use it than not have the ability at all. :)
CrimsonDeath 02-03-08, 01:51 PM	Usually when I played a Psion (my favorite class ever!) I always had a ton of skill points which I could not do anything with, and I usually just threw them into random knowledges, which I knew I would never actualy use, just to use them up. Seriously? What kind of Psion were you? Every Psion should maximize Concentration, and most would be expected to maximize Psicraft and Knowledge (Psionics), although your mileage may vary from game to game. Seer? You definitely want Spot and Listen maxed out; surprise rounds suck when you're not acting in them. Gather Information is also good when fishing for plot hooks or trying to find an enemy's weaknesses, or even locate him in the first place. Shaper? Bluff and Disguise offer some interesting options, and Use Psionic Device is fairly nice (or obscenely useful if your DM allows you to activate magic devices with it). And you'll want some Craft skills as well, for use with Minor/Major Creation, Fabricate, and Astral Construct. Kineticist? Autohypnosis is nice for dealing with caltrops and traps, and great if you ever get knocked out with lethal damage. You also never need to write anything down ever again; just roll and you'll remember it. Intimidate isn't a bad choice either. Disable Device is good after a dip into Rogue or Factotum, or with the Open Chakra power in conjunction with the feat Shape Soulmeld (Theft Gloves). Egoist? Autohypnosis again, and Heal can let you provide some of the same benefits to your allies. You'll also want at least five ranks of Balance in case you get Greased. Nomad? I love the Nomad skill list. Amaze your allies with your feats of athletic prowess, as you Climb, Jump, and Swim without even using your psionic powers. Survival is good for navigating through the wilderness or simply keeping the party fed. Ride could probably allow for some fun builds too, although I didn't select feats or powers with that one in mind. Telepath? Be the party face. Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, and Sense Motive make you perfect for talking with NPCs of almost any variety. So, that gives every psion at least four skills that are worth maxing out, and in some cases, as many as seven.
no-sides-sameeth 02-03-08, 01:58 PM	Inkblot is right. Once a skill is a class skill for one of your classes, you may always have max ranks in it; however, if, say, you had a Factotum1/PsionX, For each Psion level you would have to buy skill ranks cross class for any skills not on the Psion List; therefore, if you had a Factotum1/Psion2, you could put 6 ranks in Disable Device, but it would cost you 8 skill points (4 points for 4 ranks as Factotum1 and 2 each to raise it to 4 and 5 as a Psion, since DD is not on the Psion list). That being said, I seldom find that a level of Factotum is a waste. 2 Inspiration points can come in handy, there is a lot of Int synergy between Factotum and Psion, and you can pile on Font of Inspiration for even more IPs (You can take once for each point of Int Bonus you have). I don't think I would take more than one level of factotum, but that one level can be useful.
celestialkin 02-03-08, 02:10 PM	Seriously? What kind of Psion were you? Every Psion should maximize Concentration, and most would be expected to maximize Psicraft and Knowledge (Psionics), although your mileage may vary from game to game. Seer? You definitely want Spot and Listen maxed out; surprise rounds suck when you're not acting in them. Gather Information is also good when fishing for plot hooks or trying to find an enemy's weaknesses, or even locate him in the first place. Shaper? Bluff and Disguise offer some interesting options, and Use Psionic Device is fairly nice (or obscenely useful if your DM allows you to activate magic devices with it). And you'll want some Craft skills as well, for use with Minor/Major Creation, Fabricate, and Astral Construct. Kineticist? Autohypnosis is nice for dealing with caltrops and traps, and great if you ever get knocked out with lethal damage. You also never need to write anything down ever again; just roll and you'll remember it. Intimidate isn't a bad choice either. Disable Device is good after a dip into Rogue or Factotum, or with the Open Chakra power in conjunction with the feat Shape Soulmeld (Theft Gloves). Egoist? Autohypnosis again, and Heal can let you provide some of the same benefits to your allies. You'll also want at least five ranks of Balance in case you get Greased. Nomad? I love the Nomad skill list. Amaze your allies with your feats of athletic prowess, as you Climb, Jump, and Swim without even using your psionic powers. Survival is good for navigating through the wilderness or simply keeping the party fed. Ride could probably allow for some fun builds too, although I didn't select feats or powers with that one in mind. Telepath? Be the party face. Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, and Sense Motive make you perfect for talking with NPCs of almost any variety. So, that gives every psion at least four skills that are worth maxing out, and in some cases, as many as seven. I enjoyed the Kineticist. I would always max out concentration, but since I have played mostly with DMs who already had a negative view of Psionics Psicraft was rarely ever used (since our powers were already "broken" as is) and since I have yet to see another psionic character/monster in any game Psicraft and Knowledge (Psionics) were pointless to take unless a DM actually allowed me to study powers, and there would usually be a rogue for the locks and traps. I would often max out Intimidate to have some fun, and I would also usually max out Autohypnosis as well, but that was usually it. That just left the knowledges, which was usually overshadowed if you had a Wizard in the party. :rolleyes:
JulesCARV 02-03-08, 02:52 PM	Why not collaborate with the wizard on knowledges? He can max out arcana, architecture and engineering, history, nobility and royalty, and religion, and you can max out dungeoneering, geography, local, nature, and the planes! Okay, maybe you have a cleric with knowledge (religion) maxed out, and a druid with knowledge (nature) maxed out, leaving you each with four knowledge skills, but regardless, neither of you have enough skill points to cover all of the knowledge skills. Why not talk to the wizard's player and see what you can cover together?
teshen 02-03-08, 04:05 PM	Why not collaborate with the wizard on knowledges? He can max out arcana, architecture and engineering, history, nobility and royalty, and religion, and you can max out dungeoneering, geography, local, nature, and the planes! Okay, maybe you have a cleric with knowledge (religion) maxed out, and a druid with knowledge (nature) maxed out, leaving you each with four knowledge skills, but regardless, neither of you have enough skill points to cover all of the knowledge skills. Why not talk to the wizard's player and see what you can cover together?And if the party wizard doesn't have/isn't using his familiar to aid another/him, sink a skill point or two into those knowledges he specializes in so that you can add that +2 to his attempts.