Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cosmetor 08-07-07, 06:30 PM	I know that the Psychic Warrior is often lauded as the most balanced class in the game by Psionics buffs, but with the advent of the Duskblade...that all seemed to change. Not only does the Duskblade have better spells/day, a better spell selection, but it also does so without taking a hit to BAB! Knowing this, and combining it with the existence of Tome of Battle, how is it justifiable to keep the Psychic Warrior at d8 HP and only 3/4ths BAB?
Vharuck 08-07-07, 06:32 PM	Because his powers are amazing. He does just fine in a party of 4 fighting monsters. If you were to give him full BAB, his attack bonus would be simply insane.
Cosmetor 08-07-07, 06:36 PM	Powers are generally weaker than spells, and the Duskblade gets to use more of them on a daily basis(and a lot of them serve the same purpose too) than the Psychic Warrior does, and the Duskblade doesn't completely overpower the game, nor is he insane. Please explain your reasoning. What exactly amongst the Psychic Warrior powers are so much better than what the Duskblade gets?
Celsun 08-07-07, 06:41 PM	The psywar doesn't need full BAB. He has powers that can compensate. I don't agree that the duskblade has a better spell selection. The duskblade can cause a lot of damage with his spells, but that's just about all he can do.
Cosmetor 08-07-07, 06:44 PM	Maybe so, but you are still overlooking the fact that the Psychic Warrior is massively underpowered when compared to the Tome Of Battle classes.
Celsun 08-07-07, 06:59 PM	I like psywars because they are the only melee class I've seen that has an answer to effects that normally flatten a fighter, such as SoDs, energy drain, fear, dominate, ability damage, entanglement, poison, etc. Other classes, like the duskblade, a fighter with eleventy-seventy magic items, and the martial adepts, can do some of this, but not all of this. Metamorphosis Mind Blank, Personal Adapt Body Oak Body Freedom of Movement Power Resistance Greater Concealing Amorpha Empathic Transfer, hostile Empathic Feedback Dimension Door Inconstant Location Wall Walker Fly Teleport Hustle Psionic Lion's Charge Expansion Precognition, Offensive Precognition, Defensive Stygian Ward
primemover003 08-07-07, 07:17 PM	Has there been any definitive test showing the ToB classes are better than the PsyWar??? I know there was a thread about it here a while ago, but I don't know the resolution of the contest.
kyeudo 08-07-07, 07:35 PM	I know that the Psychic Warrior is often lauded as the most balanced class in the game by Psionics buffs, but with the advent of the Duskblade...that all seemed to change. Not only does the Duskblade have better spells/day, a better spell selection, but it also does so without taking a hit to BAB! Knowing this, and combining it with the existence of Tome of Battle, how is it justifiable to keep the Psychic Warrior at d8 HP and only 3/4ths BAB? Giving the Psi-Warrior full base attack bonus would probably break the class. They have so many buffs running that they don't need any more base attack bonus.
Tempest Stormwind 08-07-07, 07:46 PM	The psywar is NOT weaker than the ToB classes. He just has less stamina. One could say the same thing about the WIZARD. If the psywar needs any adjustment, it would be more power points. And even then, that's not strictly required. By the way, the duskblade's spell list is all about a single thing: DAMAGE. The psywar's is diverse and contains numerous options, very few happen to relate to DAMAGE. Most relate into making him a spectacular warrior in a particular regard. These two lists hardly, if ever, overlap. Why compare them?
InkBlot 08-07-07, 07:50 PM	I like psywars because they are the only melee class I've seen that has an answer to effects that normally flatten a fighter, such as SoDs, energy drain, fear, dominate, ability damage, entanglement, poison, etc. Other classes, like the duskblade, a fighter with eleventy-seventy magic items, and the martial adepts, can do some of this, but not all of this. Metamorphosis Mind Blank, Personal Adapt Body Oak Body Freedom of Movement Power Resistance Greater Concealing Amorpha Empathic Transfer, hostile Empathic Feedback Dimension Door Inconstant Location Wall Walker Fly Teleport Hustle Psionic Lion's Charge Expansion Precognition, Offensive Precognition, Defensive Stygian Ward Oh! Don't forget strength of my enemy! Or grip of iron. Or compression and expansion. Or dimension swap (aka "no you deal with it"). Et cetera ad nauseum. edit: Why do you have metamorphosis on the list? Psywars don't get that, unless they take a feat for it (and then the duskblade could just take a feat for polymorph).
DisposableHero_ 08-07-07, 08:00 PM	Giving the psychic warrior full base attack would not break the game, but it isn't really necessary either. They will still be able to flatten some pretty heavy duty foes when fully buffed, they will still have a great big dispel me sign on their back 24/7, they will still frequently run out of power points if they use them unwisely. Full vs 3/4 base attack being a game-breaking difference is one of the false underlying assumptions that makes casters so much more powerful than warriors at high levels. Anyone who believes a Psychic Warrior would be broken if they had full base attack in a game with such a massive power imbalance pointing towards full casters needs to have their head checked. Having a higher attack roll and more attacks when you full attack just does not matter as much as you think it does. A first level spell can give +20 to hit. Why is +10 to hit spread out over 20 levels considered a fair trade for 9th level spells? The Duskblade, Swordsage, Crusader, and Warblade are examples of WotC beginning to understand this. They are an attempt to balance the game by empowering the warrior archetype to the level of casters. The psychic warrior in power level is a pretty good middle ground between core melee classes and existing caster classes. If you feel every class should be as powerful as a fullcaster, give him full base attack, its a step in the right direction but it won't get you there. Neither will Crusaders and company either mind you, they are not as powerful as casters, but they are closer. The Psychic Warrior as written is probably a good mark to aim for as to how powerful a class should be. They are customizable, flexible, powerful enough to hold their own but with measurable and exploitable weaknesses. They are challenging to play be it your first or hundredth time doing so. They reward experience significantly without punishing those just learning the ropes. In essence they are a class done right, one of the few in D&D. Bottom line, you can change them this way without making them broken, but they are better off being a benchmark for how to change other classes.
RadicalTaoist 08-07-07, 09:16 PM	When a martial adept can rock a bonus to grapple checks reliably over three times his level from level 6 onwards, or drain an enemy's strength score with every hit, or switch places with vulnerable allies, or match twinked monk ACs with a minimal investment on the part of powers known and feats spent, then we'll be talking. Sure, they lack stamina, but when they are going, they don't feel inferior to anyone*. *Excepting the stupid broken.
Asadeseth 08-07-07, 10:50 PM	Well perhaps if you removed half or possibly all of the bonas fighter feets it would be okay. What the class realy neads though is more PP.
Salla 08-08-07, 01:58 AM	edit: Why do you have metamorphosis on the list? Psywars don't get that, unless they take a feat for it (and then the duskblade could just take a feat for polymorph). Depending on how the DM interprets Extra Spell, possibly, but not guaranteed.
Tempest Stormwind 08-08-07, 02:37 AM	Depending on how the DM interprets Extra Spell, possibly, but not guaranteed. You mean if the DM imposes a houserule. As written, and via precedent through Expanded Knowledge, it's not bound by class lists.
The_Shaman 08-08-07, 03:04 AM	I know that the Psychic Warrior is often lauded as the most balanced class in the game by Psionics buffs, but with the advent of the Duskblade...that all seemed to change. Not only does the Duskblade have better spells/day, a better spell selection, but it also does so without taking a hit to BAB! Knowing this, and combining it with the existence of Tome of Battle, how is it justifiable to keep the Psychic Warrior at d8 HP and only 3/4ths BAB? I suppose you could. I do not think it is so necessary, however, as it would make them a rather powerful class. Then again, when was the last time a warrior, psychic or not, dominated the game? If you want to give them a boost, you could also give them a feature to regain psionic focus as a swift action, more PPs, etc.
Red_Decker 08-08-07, 04:08 AM	My ideas for the psychic warrior: BAB I'm still not sure on, it'd be nice to have full for 4 attacks per round at 20 and all the little things but access to deep impact and other buffs make the idea seem... possibly overpowered. Will save becomes good Soulbound Warrior at 1st level in place of first level bonus feat Mantled Warrior at 2nd level in place of bonus feat http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt
Cosmetor 08-08-07, 06:10 AM	Okay so if you guys are so deadset against the Psychic Warrior getting a full BAB - how about giving them some decent class features(free weapon specialization tree one level after fighters get the capability of getting it?) or how about bumping up it's HP, giving it another good saving throw, or increasing it's skills per level?
DM Zoc 08-08-07, 06:38 AM	The Psychic Warrior is fine as is. Giving it full BAB would be no more unbalancing than giving full BAB to the Rogue or Druid.
Witch 08-08-07, 07:19 AM	You mean if the DM imposes a houserule. As written, and via precedent through Expanded Knowledge, it's not bound by class lists. ...let's not go there, again. If there's one reading that leads to abuse, and one that doesn't, and the FAQ clarifies that it's the applicable reading is the one that doesn't lead to abuse, I consider it fair game to say that it doesn't work.
runestar 08-08-07, 08:39 AM	You mean if the DM imposes a houserule. As written, and via precedent through Expanded Knowledge, it's not bound by class lists. Well, unlike expanded knowledge, which explicitly states that you may select a power from another list, extra spell has no similar provision. Plus, I don't like the idea of wizards getting polar ray as a 5th lv (duskblade) spell, underpowered as the spell may be.;)
ShinoAburame 08-08-07, 08:45 AM	Maybe so, but you are still overlooking the fact that the Psychic Warrior is massively underpowered when compared to the Tome Of Battle classes. That's because Tome of Battle is broken. Infact all spellcasting short of the charisma casters are broken! For some reason wotc are obsessive-compulsives, thier system sucks, but they'll be damned if they broke the code. Make spellcasting better then everything, including psionics. Make charisma based psychics/spellcasters suck more then thier wis/int counterparts. Make all abilities dependant on level progression, despite how level progression naturaly solves itself through rise in skillpoints, attack-bonus, and saves. Giving the psychic-warrior would not unbalance the game if your game was attempting to actually balance the class-holes. But if you're going to buff the psy-warrior you may as well buffup everyone. The wilder needs is alot more, 15 powers?! God-damn! The soulknife is technichaly psychic but gets treated like a fighter. And if you're permitting spellcasters as obvious with duskblade, then for the love of God helpout a sorcerer/bard/spelltheif brotha!!!
runestar 08-08-07, 08:49 AM	It might not unbalance anything (or too much at any rate), but ask yourself this - Just how badly does the psywarrior need a boost to his bab in the first place? It has survived just fine all this while as is. If it ain't broke, then don't fix it, IMO.
Steely_Dan 08-08-07, 09:03 AM	Just how badly does the psywarrior need a boost to his bab in the first place? The classes that need a BAB boost in my opinion, are the monk (full) and incarnate (3/4).
InkBlot 08-08-07, 11:05 AM	That's because Tome of Battle is broken. I hope you were being sarcastic. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=872117) Tome Of Battle makes combat interesting, by giving you something different to do each round of a battle, but it doesn't make melee characters any more powerful than they already were.
Flamewarrior 08-08-07, 05:34 PM	You mean if the DM imposes a houserule. As written, and via precedent through Expanded Knowledge, it's not bound by class lists.Question: if the level of the learnable spells is based off the class progression (that is, is limited by what class and level you have), what basis there is to try to infer that you can take the spell from any other list? Not to say I don't consider the feat retarded the way I think it works, unlike Expanded Knowledge, which explicitly allows picking from any list; if somebody wanted to use Extra Spell this way IMC, I'd of course allow it, because that's the only way it's worth anything for any spellcaster, but it's weird to defend the other interpretation of Extra Spell (which uses the same language as it used in 3.0) with basis in a 3.5 psionic feat.
kyeudo 08-08-07, 05:38 PM	I retract what I said earlier. Full BAB will probably not unbalance the Psi Warrior, but he doesn't need it.
Vharuck 08-08-07, 05:44 PM	Okay so if you guys are so deadset against the Psychic Warrior getting a full BAB - how about giving them some decent class features(free weapon specialization tree one level after fighters get the capability of getting it?) They get a new power every level and bonus fighter/psionic feats. In fact, if you look at the table, I think every level of Psychic Warrior either has an increase to BAB, a bonus feat, or a new maximum power level known. They have no real dead levels with nothing to look forward to. or how about bumping up it's HP, giving it another good saving throw, or increasing it's skills per level? Again, why? It works perfectly fine, no need to tweak what does its job.
DisposableHero_ 08-08-07, 05:49 PM	Again, why? It works perfectly fine, no need to tweak what does its job.Well, I consider the PsyWar having a low will save to pretty much be a crime against flavor, but otherwise you're right.
Cosmetor 08-08-07, 06:46 PM	Oh quit bullying me. I am a human being and deserve not to be bullied after every post I make!
OneWinged4ngel 08-08-07, 07:12 PM	As Disposable Hero said, Full BAB isn't worth as much as everyone seems to THINK it is. In reality, the difference between a 3/4 BAB and a 1/1 BAB is less than the difference between whether or not you rolled high or low on your stats at the start of the game. At level 8, the full BAB guy has a +2 bonus on you. At level 16, he's got a +4. How hard is it, really, to get a +4 bonus to attack at level 16? At level 8?
CrimsonDeath 08-08-07, 08:43 PM	Oh quit bullying me. I am a human being and deserve not to be bullied after every post I make! I don't think you're being bullied. You started a conversation about a controversial topic, and people want to discuss it with you. The fact that many of them disagree with you is, in my opinion, incidental to the fact that they want to have a conversation with you.
Suldarr'essalar 08-09-07, 01:23 AM	Why do you want to give him full BAB? Wouldn't it be better to give him more power points? It's not a good idea to give psywars fighter-specific feats. If you do, there'll be no point in playing a fighter (if there is a point now). Just give him 1/2 of the power points the psion has if you really think he needs some boost (I usually give him bards powre point progression (convert bard spell slots to pp)).
BlaineTog 08-09-07, 01:44 AM	Okay so if you guys are so deadset against the Psychic Warrior getting a full BAB - how about giving them some decent class features(free weapon specialization tree one level after fighters get the capability of getting it?) or how about bumping up it's HP, giving it another good saving throw, or increasing it's skills per level?Perhaps the sentence "the psychic warrior is perfectly fine as-is" is unclear to you in some way? Maybe if we phrased it differently? Leave the guy alone. He's perfect. You can't improve on perfect, by definition. And you're hardly being bullied. Seems to me that we've simply been telling you, firmly and with no equivocation, that nothing should be done to up the Psychic Warrior.
zuul88 08-09-07, 02:23 AM	Perhaps the sentence "the psychic warrior is perfectly fine as-is" is unclear to you in some way? Maybe if we phrased it differently? Leave the guy alone. He's perfect. You can't improve on perfect, by definition. And you're hardly being bullied. Seems to me that we've simply been telling you, firmly and with no equivocation, that nothing should be done to up the Psychic Warrior. Well actually there are two things that have been said to do, 1. High Will 2. More PPs. Full BAB would be to much, but not because of later levels. It would be because of earlier quailfication for PrCs, or least that how I see it. The other 2 points are very valid, though. High Will save is houseruled in my game(how is the perfection of Mind/Body harmony a weak will save?) The PP should be higher for a Full Manifester. If you think the Psychic Warrior needs a boost(in a high-powered game "the balanced" class can really use one to raise its power level) try one of those two options. It is much better mechanically and flavour-wise then full BAB. Respect Nathan
The_Shaman 08-09-07, 03:27 AM	Hmm... I value high BAB as an ability granting you 1 more attack no less than giving you up to +5 to each. Sure, you can get it by PrCs or multiclassing, and I would not be suprised if many PsyWar builds include options to improve their BAB. Apparently WotC does not value perfection of mind and body much. Does the monk have higher BAB?
BlaineTog 08-09-07, 04:50 AM	Well actually there are two things that have been said to do, 1. High Will 2. More PPs.And in both cases, they were still considered unnecessary; the boost to Will save was even only mentioned as a flavor thing (personally, I'd like to see a Psychic Warrior with Medium Fort and Will saves, but D&D doesn't have those).
Steely_Dan 08-09-07, 06:31 AM	Leave the guy alone. He's perfect. You can't improve on perfect, by definition. Good? Yes. Semi-balanced? Yes. Perfect? Well…
zuul88 08-11-07, 03:19 AM	And in both cases, they were still considered unnecessary; the boost to Will save was even only mentioned as a flavor thing (personally, I'd like to see a Psychic Warrior with Medium Fort and Will saves, but D&D doesn't have those). I play in a high-powered game, I personally am playing a slayer gish, but as you say PsyWar IS balanced. High-Powered>Balanced by definition, so you "unbalance" to balance the class within the game. (That statement barely makes syntax sense but I stand by it.) That is all I am saying, in most cases a PsyWar is more then enough but you can house-rule a little to bring him up if he needs it w/o full BAB. Respect Nathan
Disciple_of_Salsa 08-11-07, 04:40 AM	PysWarriors are good. They just have to rest a lot. I play one and I get continual glares from the warlock of the party when I blow all my power points on making my self a huge killing machine then ask if we can camp for the night after every encounter.
DrowBattlemind 08-11-07, 04:52 AM	I'm not at all sure that having a full BAB for PW's would be a good thing. In fact, having played one (until recently, new campaign), my char really doesn't need it. Between his PW psionic abilities (and a couple from the Psion list gained through Exp. Knowledge), and his combination of Feats, combined with a Deep Crystal Icy Burst broadsword, he does enough damage that he can usually drop a foe in just one or two hits. (1D8 base weapon damage, +2 enhancement bonus, +3 Str bonus damage, +1D6 frost damage [+ another 1d10 extra cold damage on a critical due to Burst effect, threat range enhanced by the Psionic Keen Edge power], +4D6 damage from Greater Psionic Weapon, +2D6 Deep Crystal damage = 1D8+7D6+5 damage on one hit ALONE, spending only 7 pp. and expending his psionic focus, or 2D8+7D6+1D10+5 on a critical hit.) (That's 13-15 points if the dice come up crappy and all ones are rolled, or a possible max 55-73 if maximum damage is rolled on each die. AGAIN, on JUST ONE HIT) And if he has the Heroic Focus and Psionic Meditation feats, he can spend an action point to automatically regain his psionic focus as a swift action to reset it for the next round (providing your campaign includes Action Points and feats from the Eberron campaign.) (Disclaimer: It's 9 minutes 'til 4 AM, so my math may be off...)
Oregwath 08-11-07, 11:28 AM	It has been stated twice in this thread that the PW needs more power points instead of bonus feats. However, those bonus feats can be used on psionic feats as well, so if you feel the need for PP more strongly then the need for feats, take Psionic Talent with each of your bonus feats. The first time you take it, you will get 2 extra PP. The second time, you will get 3, and so on and so forth. At the end of the eight feats that you don't want, you will have gained 44 extra power points. Is this effective? I don't really think so, as those feats can be used for much more creative and useful abilities, but if all you really want is more power points, then go for it.
InkBlot 08-12-07, 02:33 AM	It helps if you take Psionic Body as another one of your bonus feats. This way you get more PP and more HP. It's a virtual HD and manifesting bump.