Your Views On Expanded Knowledge [Archive] - Wizards Community

Your Views On Expanded Knowledge [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Arcane_Mark
12-28-07, 12:00 PM During one of our sessions a few days ago (which is an all psionic campaign..which, if I do say is pretty wicked) one of our newly acquired players got into an argument with us about our liberal use of Expanded Knowledge. Throughout my characters career (a telepath) she has acquired Clairvoyant Sense and Teleport.

NOW, most of our characters have used Expanded Knowledge at least once, (For example, our Seer obtained Astral Construct), but our new guy thinks using Expanded Knowledge "blends all of the disciplines together, thus not having defined roles". He still complains even when we explained why we got the feat. For myself, our nomad died (*cry*) so I just picked it up and our seer wanted a way to defend herself (too many times have popped when our passive seer couldnt do anything when we need him to).

SO, my main question is: What are your views on Expanded Knowledge?

Thanks!!!

Arcane_Mark
Lycanthromancer
12-28-07, 12:29 PM Even a seer can use psychometabolism powers off the general list. How is using EK to buy another discipline's power any different?

Let's say I'm building a character to a theme. A psychic investigator/bounty hunter would pick powers liberally from the clairsentience list (for picking up vibes from objects he's touched), as well as from telepathy (for interrogating suspects and witnesses), as well as the psychometabolism discipline list (for defending himself against suspects when he catches up with them), and psychokinesis powers (for controlling or blasting suspects when they try to get away).

How is this diluting the character concept? So long as it's useful, it's no more horrifying than picking up similar spells is for a wizard.
Bacris
12-28-07, 01:25 PM It's about as diluting as a generalist wizard.

What's this other player's take on that? If the wizard is "ok" as-is, why does the psion have to get pigeon-holed?

Personally, I think EK is a great way to give versatility. And from a fluff perspective, it shows someone taking the time and energy to learn things they would not normally be good at.
hogarth
12-28-07, 01:38 PM It's about as diluting as a generalist wizard.
I'd say it's more like allowing all clerics to get Teleport and Fly (via a feat) instead of limiting those spells to a Travel domain cleric.
Personally, I think EK is a great way to give versatility. And from a fluff perspective, it shows someone taking the time and energy to learn things they would not normally be good at.
I don't think there's anything wrong with Expanded Knowledge either. After all, you're paying a feat for it. I can see the player's point of view, though.
InkBlot
12-28-07, 02:41 PM Expanded Knowledge, like every other feat, class, race, skill trick, etc., is just a building block for creating the character you want to play. It's an especially important building block too, due to the lack of a generalist Psion.

One generalist-type character having Expanded Knowledge doesn't reflect on the specialist-type character who doesn't have Expanded Knowledge.
Bacris
12-28-07, 02:49 PM I'd say it's more like allowing all clerics to get Teleport and Fly (via a feat) instead of limiting those spells to a Travel domain cleric.

Um, except that it's not. The psion is not analagous to the cleric. The psion is analagous to the wizard, in that both utilize logic, reason, and intelligence to learn their abilities, as opposed to the cleric who utilizes faith for his abilities. In keeping with that, a character who spends time and effort to learn something (a feat) should be able to do something new.

In most parties that I have heard of / played in / seen, the psion typically fulfills the role of the wizard if you go with the Core 4 roles, not that of a cleric.

The best comparison to core magic would be a specialist wizard, which is still not a good comparison, because the "good" spells from the non-prohibited schools are still available, whereas a psion always has "good" powers prohibited without EK.
Arcane_Mark
12-28-07, 06:10 PM Everything you have said is what we said......KREEPY!!!

Anywho,

About the wizard thing he said that with a wizard you do not "have to" pick a school (or in our case, a discipline) but with a psion you do.

Well I am just glad that he is only with us for two weeks and then he is leaving....mwhaaaaa

But I would still <3 to hear your point of views on Expanded Knowledge.
Kanachi
12-28-07, 07:08 PM I think the answer to this depends upon the type of game you play. Does every number on your characters sheet have to be in keeping with her theme/roll and how much optimisation and min/maxing do you allow?

In some groups its fine to take whatever combo of powers, feats and whatever else you want in order to make an uber character. Players are largely responsible for their own evolutions in such games and the DM must have the strength to remind players of their obligation not to abuse these privileges (otherwise you get a fleet of crazy builds appearing on your campaigns radar).

In other games players are expected only to evolve their characters in ways which are thematically respectful towards the characters they are creating, even if such characters are sub optimal. In such campaigns the DM generally has to "ok" a feat, power or build before its implemented. Players may also be asked to justify their motives for selecting whatever options they wish to pursue. The DM must be very careful here not to railroad her players and must also understand that if her players are constrained within sometimes sub-optimal forms so must the obstacles which await them.

I know all this is fairly obvious but I think that about sums up the basis of how you argue your case. Which type of game do you play? (Though it’s more likely you will simply lean towards one of these options rather than sit in their pocket).

Personally I’m the type of player that NEVER plays a standard class, don’t ask me why. I like building something strange, with a style that challenges the norm (perhaps this is the rock-star in me that never broke out? lol). At any rate, even I still try to justify my build with my characters development, back-story and actions.

My current character, for example, was accidentally responsible for a temporal distortion which caused the timeline to facture off at a wild tanjent (creating the world as it is now in the game). He was also trapped frozen in time for (what I’ve been able to guess) about 1000 years. My character who was once a good man with a young family now only seeks to return home at any cost. As a result he now regards this reality as irrelevant (for it won’t exist when he returns home and alters history) so he has become quite well... morally grey. None of the party trust him (quite rightly) though he is kept in check by his psicrystal (which the DM controls) who has the personality of his former self before he was driven from his good, kind and charitable nature. He hates the crystal as it shows him what he has become and in the last few sessions he’s begun to worry about how he would face his family if he does what he would have to in order to return home (basically screwing everyone and their dog over by turning a weapon designed to destroy the bbeg into a portal powerful enough to return him to his home time).

Anyway, he’s also slowly developing a number of time and teleportation powers which have required some complex build steps to get hold of. I've tried my very best to justified each one with my character which to be honest has only made him all the more interesting to play. He is however one of the more powerful players in the group.

errrm... sorry about the massive rant and tangent. :s
Favored Enemy
12-29-07, 12:21 AM I wish it weren't necessary to balance out the Psion with Expanded Knowledge. I like the idea of greater differentiation between disciplines. The majority of pure Psions tend to look very similar due to EK's ability to cherry pick powers. Then there's also the annoying decision whether to choose a nice metapsionic feat or a new power.
anarchy1973
12-29-07, 07:33 AM I am the complete opposite of most, I think Expanded Knowledge is a waste of a valuable feat.

Most campaigns I have played in are both Psionic & Magic intensive. Whilst trying to keep up with my arcane brothers & sisters, I am a big believer ( and more importantly so is the DM's), that researching powers is the best way to go.

The psion power list is less than all the spells in the PH alone (nothing new to most Psi lovers), & the spells are generally more powerful, or last 10 min/lv; instead of 1 min/lvl in the comparitive Psion powers, so to not waste any of my feats by spending XP time & a Psicraft check allows me to fill my 36 slots with what I really need.

At higher levels when I can afford the costs I pay for Psychic Chirugery also to increase my 36 slots pre -epic.

I think if you read Logic Ningas guides to Wizards being Batman & the guide on Wizards being God, then you will want the best opportunity to make a Psion that is competitive pre-epic.

Just my 2 cents.
PhaedrusXY
01-03-08, 11:59 AM Slap him with a trout and tell him to mind his own business (and character).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arcane_Mark 12-28-07, 12:00 PM	During one of our sessions a few days ago (which is an all psionic campaign..which, if I do say is pretty wicked) one of our newly acquired players got into an argument with us about our liberal use of Expanded Knowledge. Throughout my characters career (a telepath) she has acquired Clairvoyant Sense and Teleport. NOW, most of our characters have used Expanded Knowledge at least once, (For example, our Seer obtained Astral Construct), but our new guy thinks using Expanded Knowledge "blends all of the disciplines together, thus not having defined roles". He still complains even when we explained why we got the feat. For myself, our nomad died (cry) so I just picked it up and our seer wanted a way to defend herself (too many times have popped when our passive seer couldnt do anything when we need him to). SO, my main question is: What are your views on Expanded Knowledge? Thanks!!! Arcane_Mark
Lycanthromancer 12-28-07, 12:29 PM	Even a seer can use psychometabolism powers off the general list. How is using EK to buy another discipline's power any different? Let's say I'm building a character to a theme. A psychic investigator/bounty hunter would pick powers liberally from the clairsentience list (for picking up vibes from objects he's touched), as well as from telepathy (for interrogating suspects and witnesses), as well as the psychometabolism discipline list (for defending himself against suspects when he catches up with them), and psychokinesis powers (for controlling or blasting suspects when they try to get away). How is this diluting the character concept? So long as it's useful, it's no more horrifying than picking up similar spells is for a wizard.
Bacris 12-28-07, 01:25 PM	It's about as diluting as a generalist wizard. What's this other player's take on that? If the wizard is "ok" as-is, why does the psion have to get pigeon-holed? Personally, I think EK is a great way to give versatility. And from a fluff perspective, it shows someone taking the time and energy to learn things they would not normally be good at.
hogarth 12-28-07, 01:38 PM	It's about as diluting as a generalist wizard. I'd say it's more like allowing all clerics to get Teleport and Fly (via a feat) instead of limiting those spells to a Travel domain cleric. Personally, I think EK is a great way to give versatility. And from a fluff perspective, it shows someone taking the time and energy to learn things they would not normally be good at. I don't think there's anything wrong with Expanded Knowledge either. After all, you're paying a feat for it. I can see the player's point of view, though.
InkBlot 12-28-07, 02:41 PM	Expanded Knowledge, like every other feat, class, race, skill trick, etc., is just a building block for creating the character you want to play. It's an especially important building block too, due to the lack of a generalist Psion. One generalist-type character having Expanded Knowledge doesn't reflect on the specialist-type character who doesn't have Expanded Knowledge.
Bacris 12-28-07, 02:49 PM	I'd say it's more like allowing all clerics to get Teleport and Fly (via a feat) instead of limiting those spells to a Travel domain cleric. Um, except that it's not. The psion is not analagous to the cleric. The psion is analagous to the wizard, in that both utilize logic, reason, and intelligence to learn their abilities, as opposed to the cleric who utilizes faith for his abilities. In keeping with that, a character who spends time and effort to learn something (a feat) should be able to do something new. In most parties that I have heard of / played in / seen, the psion typically fulfills the role of the wizard if you go with the Core 4 roles, not that of a cleric. The best comparison to core magic would be a specialist wizard, which is still not a good comparison, because the "good" spells from the non-prohibited schools are still available, whereas a psion always has "good" powers prohibited without EK.
Arcane_Mark 12-28-07, 06:10 PM	Everything you have said is what we said......KREEPY!!! Anywho, About the wizard thing he said that with a wizard you do not "have to" pick a school (or in our case, a discipline) but with a psion you do. Well I am just glad that he is only with us for two weeks and then he is leaving....mwhaaaaa But I would still <3 to hear your point of views on Expanded Knowledge.
Kanachi 12-28-07, 07:08 PM	I think the answer to this depends upon the type of game you play. Does every number on your characters sheet have to be in keeping with her theme/roll and how much optimisation and min/maxing do you allow? In some groups its fine to take whatever combo of powers, feats and whatever else you want in order to make an uber character. Players are largely responsible for their own evolutions in such games and the DM must have the strength to remind players of their obligation not to abuse these privileges (otherwise you get a fleet of crazy builds appearing on your campaigns radar). In other games players are expected only to evolve their characters in ways which are thematically respectful towards the characters they are creating, even if such characters are sub optimal. In such campaigns the DM generally has to "ok" a feat, power or build before its implemented. Players may also be asked to justify their motives for selecting whatever options they wish to pursue. The DM must be very careful here not to railroad her players and must also understand that if her players are constrained within sometimes sub-optimal forms so must the obstacles which await them. I know all this is fairly obvious but I think that about sums up the basis of how you argue your case. Which type of game do you play? (Though it’s more likely you will simply lean towards one of these options rather than sit in their pocket). Personally I’m the type of player that NEVER plays a standard class, don’t ask me why. I like building something strange, with a style that challenges the norm (perhaps this is the rock-star in me that never broke out? lol). At any rate, even I still try to justify my build with my characters development, back-story and actions. My current character, for example, was accidentally responsible for a temporal distortion which caused the timeline to facture off at a wild tanjent (creating the world as it is now in the game). He was also trapped frozen in time for (what I’ve been able to guess) about 1000 years. My character who was once a good man with a young family now only seeks to return home at any cost. As a result he now regards this reality as irrelevant (for it won’t exist when he returns home and alters history) so he has become quite well... morally grey. None of the party trust him (quite rightly) though he is kept in check by his psicrystal (which the DM controls) who has the personality of his former self before he was driven from his good, kind and charitable nature. He hates the crystal as it shows him what he has become and in the last few sessions he’s begun to worry about how he would face his family if he does what he would have to in order to return home (basically screwing everyone and their dog over by turning a weapon designed to destroy the bbeg into a portal powerful enough to return him to his home time). Anyway, he’s also slowly developing a number of time and teleportation powers which have required some complex build steps to get hold of. I've tried my very best to justified each one with my character which to be honest has only made him all the more interesting to play. He is however one of the more powerful players in the group. errrm... sorry about the massive rant and tangent. :s
Favored Enemy 12-29-07, 12:21 AM	I wish it weren't necessary to balance out the Psion with Expanded Knowledge. I like the idea of greater differentiation between disciplines. The majority of pure Psions tend to look very similar due to EK's ability to cherry pick powers. Then there's also the annoying decision whether to choose a nice metapsionic feat or a new power.
anarchy1973 12-29-07, 07:33 AM	I am the complete opposite of most, I think Expanded Knowledge is a waste of a valuable feat. Most campaigns I have played in are both Psionic & Magic intensive. Whilst trying to keep up with my arcane brothers & sisters, I am a big believer ( and more importantly so is the DM's), that researching powers is the best way to go. The psion power list is less than all the spells in the PH alone (nothing new to most Psi lovers), & the spells are generally more powerful, or last 10 min/lv; instead of 1 min/lvl in the comparitive Psion powers, so to not waste any of my feats by spending XP time & a Psicraft check allows me to fill my 36 slots with what I really need. At higher levels when I can afford the costs I pay for Psychic Chirugery also to increase my 36 slots pre -epic. I think if you read Logic Ningas guides to Wizards being Batman & the guide on Wizards being God, then you will want the best opportunity to make a Psion that is competitive pre-epic. Just my 2 cents.
PhaedrusXY 01-03-08, 11:59 AM	Slap him with a trout and tell him to mind his own business (and character).