Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Plastic Sun 02-06-06, 04:14 AM	Alright, a little background first: This race is meant for a post steam punk, now dark age game, the entire world was shattered by a huge war, the Centaur are one of the player character races. I may post the other player races, but this is the only one i'm really unsure about. Centaurs http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/MeowMixR/sf_book2_earnest.jpg Wandering the vast battle-scarred plains of the world are the kind Centaurs, endevoring more than any of the other races to repair the wounds of the old war, to bring peace and prosperity back to a land shattered beyond recognition. Personality: The Centaurs are the only race left that could be said to have an upbeat disposition, most Centaurs are stong and noble people with a long list of honors to their race's credit, it is unfortunate that they are mostly ignored by the more violent and short-tempered races. The average Centaur has patience that would rival that of an Elf's, able to endure derision and scorn without even flinching, but lo to the man who finally makes the Centaur lose his temper. Physical Description: Centaurs seem massive to the other creatures of the world, most of them being anywhere between 7' and 8' feet tall for males, 6' and 7' for females, they dwarf nearly all of the other civilized races of the world. Centaurs' fur length can run the gamut between short smooth fur, to shaggy fur, depending on how cold the region the Centaur hails from, their fur color almost always matches their hair color. Relations:Centaurs are often viewed with comtempt and pity by the other races who see their efforts towards peace an exercise in futility and consider the Centaurs naive for their presumption. Centaurs for their part mind little the stigma they must face from the other races and continue unerringly towards their goal. Alignment:Cenataurs tend toward nuetrality in respects towards Law and Chaos, and an evil Centaur is few and far between. Lands: Centaurs rome the massive swaths of plains, north of the freelands of the south, and often ntermingle with the well established cities in that area, their territory ranges up the Glimmering Ice forest to the north, allowing the Centaurs to have contact with the Psychotic Elves who makes their homes within. Centaurs rarely form nations, relying mostly on a tribal system of government. Religion: Many Centaurs lost their connections to their dieties after the Great War, stunned by the sheer acts of inhumanity they had seen and experienced in those dark days, and only five centuries since have they started to re-establish themselves with religion, mostly in the form of nature-worship and Druidism. Adventures: Centaurs adventure to advance the cause of peace in the world, and many others just don't feel accepted by their home tribes and are struck with a wanderlust that sends them far and wide, there are a disporportianately high number of Centaur adventurers, ranking second only to Humans. Racial Qualities: -+2 Strength, -2 Dexterity: Centaurs are strong and imposing though they have the tendency to be abit clumsy in a world designed mostly for bipedal creatures. -Monstrous Humanoid: Centaurs are the Monstrous Humanoid type and are subeject to all the penalties and benefits to it, with the exceptions that they do not gain simple weapon proficiencies, nor do they gain Darkvision. -Large Size: Centaurs are Large, but with certain exceptions, while they still gain the -1 to Attack and Armor Class, they do not gain reach, nor can they wield weapons as Large Creatures, thoguh they have all other benefits and peanties that come along with large size. -Centaur base land speed is 40'. -Quadrapeded: As Quadraped, Centaurs have a +4 Bonus to resist Bull Rush and Trip attacks. They have a carrying capacity of 1-1/2 times greater than normal for their strength. They must wear barding instead of normal armor and they cannot wear boots designed for humanoids -Mounted: Centaurs are always considered mounted and are never required to take ride checks, additionally they are nto required to take Mounted Combat as a prequisite to any feat, nor do they take pentalties to attack for firing or attacking while mounted, Centaurs do not gain the usual bonus to attack for being mounted. Centaurs may be ridden, but the passanger counts towarsds their carrying capacity, and may not exceed by themselves a light load. -Weapon Familiarity: Centaurs treat Lances of all types as being simple and Centauian War Spears as Martial rather than exotic. -Unsure Climbers: As large quadrupeds with inflexible feet and relatively weak upper bodies, centaurs take a -4 (or greater, your call) penalty on climb checks and can never take 10 on climb rolls involving footholds. -Good Natured: Centaurs gain +2 to Diplomacy and Heal checks. -Automatic Languages: Sylvan, Common. Bonus Languages: Any (except secret languages such as Druidic) -Favored Class: Fighter
Jaeron Dalur 02-06-06, 07:12 AM	I like it. The one thing I dont understand is why they were given an entirely new language. I was under the impression that Sylvan was the native language of Centaurs.
Morka 02-06-06, 08:07 AM	Being large isn't a bit too much for a LA 0 race?
Jaeron Dalur 02-06-06, 08:42 AM	Being large isn't a bit too much for a LA 0 race? I think the fact that he nerfed it by making it only able to weild weapons and have reach as a medium creature makes it alot more palatable. A bigger problem (that I just noticed) is that they are given two feats for free. The run feat makes sense to me and definately fits with the flavor but seems a bit unnecesary. The free use of the lance makes sense from a combat perspective but from a flavor perspective I don't see it fiting the flavor of an intelectually (and technologically) inferior race. I also have a problem with making diplomacy a permanent class skill. That is worth at the very least a feat by itself.Removing one of those would go a long way to making this more balanced. If you got rid of one of those feats or the diplomacy class skill then I would classify this as being on the "very good" end of the +0 LA races as it wouldn't be worth it as a +1 LA race.
Maxxx 02-06-06, 08:46 AM	Being large isn't a bit too much for a LA 0 race? No, because he eliminated the use of large weapons, but he still gets all penalties. Something like a anti-powerful built, I like that to balance the carrying capacity increase. But I would say it is a bit powerful for +0 as they get: improved carrying capacity (let's say balanced with increased size) Run as a bonus feat (strong with a 40' base speed) proficiency with a martial weapon and one exotic one mounted combat as a bonus feat (kind of, but may take spirited charge, quite powerful with the lance) +2 to wisdom all of this makes a very powerful cleric or druid, with a +2 strength lance charging 40' fast character. Of course this depends on the other races in your world, but compared to a player race he really shines in open field combat, of course he s***s in a dungeon.
Plastic Sun 02-06-06, 08:49 AM	Rather obvious changes are now done, thanks for the suggestions Jaeron, as for shining in the field, well yes, yes he would, but also think of all the other places he'd have problems with, sleeping in predominantly humanoid towns, walking and any street thats not relatively flat, fitting into most buildings...
Kuraito 02-06-06, 09:06 AM	I suggest quite a few changes really. -Large Size: Centaurs are Large, but with certain exceptions, while they still gain the -1 to Attack and Armor Class, they do not gain reach, nor can they wield weapons as Large Creatures, thoguh they have all other benefits and peanties that come along with large size. Why do they have to be large? I can easily see a slightly stunted Centuar, only a little taller and heavier then a normal human. This would go a long way in simplifying it. Just say "Medium" and be done with it. -+2 Strength, -2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom, -2 Intelligence: Centaurs are strong and tall with an awareness to the world around them that astounds others, unfortunately they are rather clumsy and rather easy to outwit. Since they are no longer large, +2 str seems a bit off as does -2 dex. I suggest ditching all that for just +2 con, -2 Int. They can still carry quite a bit more then a human thanks to the fact they're quadrapeds and their horse half makes them remarkably hardy. They are still not to sophisticated though -Centaur base land speed is 40'.. Seems fine to me. -Quadrapeded: As Quadraped, Centaurs have a +4 Binus to resist Bull Rush and Trip attacks. They have a carrying capacity of 1-1/2 times greater than normal for their strength. They must wear barding instead of normal armor and they cannot wear boots designed for humanoids Also fine. -Mounted: Centaurs are always considered mounted and are never required to take ride checks, additionally they are nto required to take Mounted COmbat as a prequisite to any feat, nor do they take pentalties to attack for firing or attacking while mounted. Tis good. -Good Natured: Centaurs gain +2 to Diplomacy, Bluff and Sense Motive checks, Diplomacy is always a Class Skill for them. I'd change this simply to +2 Sense Motive and +2 Listen and/or Spot. -Centaurs Gain the Run feat as a bonus feat. Good. -Racial Proficencies: Centaurs receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency for the Lance for free as bonus feats, they also treat Centaurian War Spears as Martial Weapons rather than Exotic Weapons. Hm...I don't like auto profeciency. How about expanding the "Weapon Familiarity" rules a bit and make them treat Lances as simple weapons and War Spears as Martial Weapons? -Automatic Languages: Common and Sylvan. Bonus Languages: Any (except secret languages such as Druidic) -Favored Class: Ranger All good. There we go, a solid, but reasonable LA +0 race.
Che 02-06-06, 09:37 AM	I think Kuraito's suggestions are all right on the money.
Jaeron Dalur 02-06-06, 09:45 AM	Awesome. I hope you don't mind but I am gonna use this in my own game. Great job. :D
Plastic Sun 02-06-06, 04:32 PM	I suggest quite a few changes really. Why do they have to be large? I can easily see a slightly stunted Centuar, only a little taller and heavier then a normal human. This would go a long way in simplifying it. Just say "Medium" and be done with it. Since they are no longer large, +2 str seems a bit off as does -2 dex. I suggest ditching all that for just +2 con, -2 Int. They can still carry quite a bit more then a human thanks to the fact they're quadrapeds and their horse half makes them remarkably hardy. They are still not to sophisticated though Seems fine to me. Also fine. Tis good. I'd change this simply to +2 Sense Motive and +2 Listen and/or Spot. Good. Hm...I don't like auto profeciency. How about expanding the "Weapon Familiarity" rules a bit and make them treat Lances as simple weapons and War Spears as Martial Weapons? All good. There we go, a solid, but reasonable LA +0 race. I think maybe the change to medium would make sense, I still say the stat modifiers are fine and additionally +2 Con is way too common, as are the skill bonuses, but I can see dropping the auto-proficency down to weapon familiarity...lances are so good for centaurs...additionally to anyone wondering where the inspiration for these Centaurs are, it's from the old Genesis game Shining Force
Shaggy_Shaggs 02-06-06, 04:50 PM	to anyone wondering where the inspiration for these Centaurs are, it's from the old Genesis game Shining Force No wonder the first thought I got from this was Chester from SF2! :D I'm gonna have to run this by my sister, she loves the idea of centaurs but hates the level adjustment and racial HD hurting her ability to be a proper bard.
kikazzi 02-06-06, 05:32 PM	Some good followup posts on this race, I have to admit that I love it too. I'd like to add a few comments of my own. Lands: Centaurs rome the massive swaths of plains to the north of the freelands of the south, and often intermingle with the well established cities in the area, their territory ranges up the Glimmering Ice forest to the north, allowing the Centaurs to have contact with the Psychotic Elves who makes their homes within. Centaurs rarely form nations, relying mostly on a tribal system of government. Ok, I know the pictures just for fun (and cool) but this doesn't match at all with the picture. Personally, I like the idea of a civilized race, especially after your description of their honor. Of course, I did love Mus of Kerbridge. Racial Qualities: -+2 Strength, -2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom, -2 Intelligence: Centaurs are strong and tall with an awareness to the world around them that astounds others, unfortunately they are rather clumsy and rather easy to outwit. Ok, +2 constitution, -2 Dex. I don't think you need the additional strength, as you are going to get this reflected from the attributes below. They can carry more, they can bull rush, charge, resist movement, due to their 4 legs. I don't see them being exceptionally musclebound. However, their large body size would require a larger heart and their sheer mass would make them harder to kill. -2 dex is essential. They won't be creaping around in the shadows, dodging nimbly like the other races. The other statistics just don't go over well with me. It's flavor probably left over from the SF picture. They just don't need those stat adjustments to be unique. It always bothers me when the stats don't make physical sense or reflect society. -Large Size: Centaurs are Large, but with certain exceptions, while they still gain the -1 to Attack and Armor Class, they do not gain reach, nor can they wield weapons as Large Creatures, thoguh they have all other benefits and peanties that come along with large size. I say keep it, but not the height. 7' tall. They are Large (long) . Their space would be 10 and their reach 5 because they are going to take up 2 squares, you can't get around that. This explains their inability to use large weapons and their lack of reach, you don't even need to right that in. -Centaur base land speed is 40'. This is very good, which is why we need to be careful to not overpower them. -Quadrapeded: As Quadraped, Centaurs have a +4 Binus to resist Bull Rush and Trip attacks. They have a carrying capacity of 1-1/2 times greater than normal for their strength. They must wear barding instead of normal armor and they cannot wear boots designed for humanoids Here is where you see the strength benefits. -Mounted: Centaurs are always considered mounted and are never required to take ride checks, additionally they are nto required to take Mounted COmbat as a prequisite to any feat, nor do they take pentalties to attack for firing or attacking while mounted. Ok, notice here that you are giving them a free feat, Mounted Combat. This is very powerful. -Good Natured: Centaurs gain +2 to Diplomacy and Sense Motive checks. No. You can't give any bonuses, the race is already very strong. Plus, no one likes them and they don't really relate that well with others. Don't do this. -Centaurs Gain the Run feat as a bonus feat. Cut this. You can have fat centaurs. They already get movement bonus. This is basically 2 bonus feats, enough to push it to +1. -Racial Proficencies: Centaurs receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency for the Lance for free as bonus feats, they also treat Centaurian War Spears as Martial Weapons rather than Exotic Weapons. Another bonus feat. Don't do it. Sure, everyone's going to have a lance. But they will be fighters, rangers, pallies, already proficient. -Automatic Languages: Common and Sylvan. Bonus Languages: Any (except secret languages such as Druidic) Personally, I don't think Sylvan makes any sense and disagree with the previous poster. They need their own language. They have their own society and a dark ages, post steampunk decimated world doesn't say "we talk to fairies!" to me. -Favored Class: Ranger Again, it's probably the picture and Mus of Kerbridge throwing me off. I have to say I want fighter, or even Paladin.
Ensjak 02-06-06, 05:45 PM	Haha Shining Force...such a good game. Isn't that a picture of Ernst, not Chester? I was thinking of SF the whole time I read your fluff...doesn't sound much like the Centaur in the game though... how does the Ranger fit them? They were Knights/Paladins in the game if I remember correctly. I also agree that they seem a little powerful and u might consider dropping the +2 wisdom and the skill bonuses. I think the rest is right on the money though.
Shaggy_Shaggs 02-06-06, 05:51 PM	Haha Shining Force...such a good game. Isn't that a picture of Ernst, not Chester? Possibly, I was definitely getting a SF vibe off it either way though. :D
Xereq 02-06-06, 06:13 PM	Why do they have to be large? I can easily see a slightly stunted Centuar, only a little taller and heavier then a normal human. This would go a long way in simplifying it. Just say "Medium" and be done with it. because realistically a horse body is large sized and centaurs do not want to be deformed. -+2 Strength, -2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom, -2 Intelligence: Centaurs are strong and tall with an awareness to the world around them that astounds others, unfortunately they are rather clumsy and rather easy to outwit. :confused: They are easy to fool but get a bonus to sense motive? Wisdom is the stat that makes them able to see through falsehoods, intelegence determine's how skilled and knowledgable you are Hm...I don't like auto profeciency. How about expanding the "Weapon Familiarity" rules a bit and make them treat Lances as simple weapons and War Spears as Martial Weapons? I agree with the weapon familiarity thing. very cool, now I am going to set about making a snke tailed race with LA+0
Muglock 02-06-06, 06:16 PM	No offense... But I am getting WAY sick of people making Monster races with +0 LA. They are monster races for a reason. They are over powerful. They deserve there Level Adjustment when compared to normal players. STOP trying to create this half-assed fan made races with no level adjustment. Its sad, and I can see over like, 10 tweaked races with +0 LA on the first page of this forum. If you want to play a monster race at +0 LA, you mise as well take away all its special abilities and what makes it so special.
Plastic Sun 02-06-06, 07:50 PM	No offense... But I am getting WAY sick of people making Monster races with +0 LA. They are monster races for a reason. They are over powerful. They deserve there Level Adjustment when compared to normal players. STOP trying to create this half-assed fan made races with no level adjustment. Its sad, and I can see over like, 10 tweaked races with +0 LA on the first page of this forum. If you want to play a monster race at +0 LA, you mise as well take away all its special abilities and what makes it so special. Actually I barely took anything away besides their massive, massive stat bonuses, if you bothered to read the MM you'd know that, and I resent you calling this race half-assed, this happens to be one of the primary Races of my campaign world, if you don't like that then why did you even post here? Oh and please notice, I said Inspired by shining force What do you suggest besides Sense Motive?
SilvercatMoonpaw 02-06-06, 08:32 PM	You shouldn't worry about people who go off about +0 LA on "montrous" races. First off, it's only monstrous if you want it to be. I've always felt it was silly for all the main races to look human, and a centaur breaks that mold. Eberron brought us the Living Construct type so we could play constructs without too much LA. I'd like to ask those who hate whether it is merely the idea of seeing something you know changed or the fact that it's so different from that which came before. As for the statistics: From the picture and the descriptions, centaurs sound like they might be smarter than a -2 Int penalty. Also, somehow I don't see a quadraped race that runs as being clumsy, so consider the -2 Dex carefully. But that's just my opinion.
Muglock 02-06-06, 09:13 PM	If you dont want to be humanoid, grab the stats for a playable version of a gelatinous cube. Oh, wait, better make that +0 LA.
obrysii 02-06-06, 09:18 PM	If you dont want to be humanoid, grab the stats for a playable version of a gelatinous cube. Oh, wait, better make that +0 LA. Why do you have such a problem with non-humanoid player races?
Shaggy_Shaggs 02-06-06, 09:28 PM	I've caught myself spouting crap like Muglock here a few times in the past. I think the attitude stems from frustration at players who insist on being "unique" (ie, attention-starved pains in the posterior) but who want to do it by having some new exotic race, rather than by putting in the thought and effort to roleplay a truly unique character. And then they :censored: and moan about how having a level adjustment is unfair and makes them unplayably weak, and it's a huge headache. When I have to put up with a player like this I find myself drifting toward hostility and sarcasm as well, just out of annoyance. Players like that need a good smack upside the head with the core rulebook boxed set. That said, I don't think unusual LA +0 races are a bad idea. It's nice to have a change of pace now and then without taking a LA hit for it. The reason a player wants it just needs to be taken into consideration before it's ever allowed.
ChimericPhase 02-07-06, 12:49 AM	No offense... But I am getting WAY sick of people making Monster races with +0 LA. They are monster races for a reason. They are over powerful. They deserve there Level Adjustment when compared to normal players. STOP trying to create this half-assed fan made races with no level adjustment. Its sad, and I can see over like, 10 tweaked races with +0 LA on the first page of this forum. If you want to play a monster race at +0 LA, you mise as well take away all its special abilities and what makes it so special. You know this is the second thread I've found Muglock on where you've had nothing constructive to add to the thread. This thread is not asking your general opinion about playing monsterous races. If you don't like the topic presented in the thread, kindly absent yourself from posting in it.
Plastic Sun 02-07-06, 01:09 AM	Just ignore him, maybe he'll go away...anyway, is it the general consensus that perhaps the +2 Wis, -2 Int needs to go?
kikazzi 02-07-06, 01:47 PM	Just ignore him, maybe he'll go away...anyway, is it the general consensus that perhaps the +2 Wis, -2 Int needs to go? I'd agree with that. I'd look to some other nerfs too. Look at how many abilities/skills half-orcs get in the PH because of their stat bonus. You are getting the following with this race: + Str + Skills x2 40 Movement 2 Bonus feats + Weapon Proficiency It's simply too powerful. I would drop everything but the stat adjustments and movement. They are compelling enough with just that.
Plastic Sun 02-07-06, 02:54 PM	I'd agree with that. I'd look to some other nerfs too. Look at how many abilities/skills half-orcs get in the PH because of their stat bonus. You are getting the following with this race: + Str + Skills x2 40 Movement 2 Bonus feats + Weapon Proficiency It's simply too powerful. I would drop everything but the stat adjustments and movement. They are compelling enough with just that. Half-Orcs are terribly designed, almost eberyone I know house rules them to be better before a player will ever consider them for anything except reloplaying purposes, but if you still think they're unbalanced just look at what Dwarves get. +2 Constitution, -2 Charisma. Dwarf base land speed is 20 feet. Darkvision Stonecunning Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves may treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons. Stability: A dwarf gains a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground). +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison. +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects. +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs and goblinoids. +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type. Any time a creature loses its Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class, such as when it’s caught flat-footed, it loses its dodge bonus, too. +2 racial bonus on Appraise checks that are related to stone or metal items. +2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal. Thats just bucket loads of stuff, honestly and though I admit that Dwarf is an extreme example, so here's the Elf +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution. Medium Elf base land speed is 30 feet. Immunity to magic sleep effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects. Low-Light Vision: An elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions. Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats. +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it.
Grand Theft Otto 02-07-06, 03:31 PM	Looks reasonably balanced to me. The nonstandard body type is a much bigger PITA than people give it credit for. He's essentially unable to climb (even ladders), has a larger base (resulting in problems w maneuvering inside buildings), might have problems swimming etc. Also, since he wears barding, he most likely cant use any found armor. All armor must be custom built (with a x4 base cost) and enchanted (though I wouldnt multiply the enchantment costs x4). Most rangers tend to wear mithral breastplates... the cost of mithril light plate barding would be rather high (17400 before enchantment) compared to a human's 4350gp. The stats, while they somewhat favor being a cleric, arent incredibly over the top... In my campaigns, skills play a large part, and losing out on Intelligence hurts (-1 to all Int skills, -1 skill point/level).
SilvercatMoonpaw 02-07-06, 03:44 PM	I've caught myself spouting crap like Muglock here a few times in the past. I think the attitude stems from frustration at players who insist on being "unique" (ie, attention-starved pains in the posterior) but who want to do it by having some new exotic race, rather than by putting in the thought and effort to roleplay a truly unique character. And then they :censored: and moan about how having a level adjustment is unfair and makes them unplayably weak, and it's a huge headache. When I have to put up with a player like this I find myself drifting toward hostility and sarcasm as well, just out of annoyance. Players like that need a good smack upside the head with the core rulebook boxed set. That said, I don't think unusual LA +0 races are a bad idea. It's nice to have a change of pace now and then without taking a LA hit for it. The reason a player wants it just needs to be taken into consideration before it's ever allowed. You've got a point about wanting to be unique. I don't really care much for the core races because they are all so human looking. In fact, if each race looked very unique you might not have so many players going for the exotic. I think you are entirely justified about getting irritated at people who want to play soemthing tricky, but then don't like the LA. It's true that roleplaying a standard race well is a good thing, but D&D is a game for escaping ourselves. Exotic races do that.
Grand Theft Otto 02-07-06, 05:00 PM	I'd agree with that. I'd look to some other nerfs too. Look at how many abilities/skills half-orcs get in the PH because of their stat bonus. You are getting the following with this race: + Str + Skills x2 40 Movement 2 Bonus feats + Weapon Proficiency It's simply too powerful. I would drop everything but the stat adjustments and movement. They are compelling enough with just that. Most people agree that half-orcs get the shaft. So, not a good baseline.
Plastic Sun 02-08-06, 08:50 PM	You've got a point about wanting to be unique. I don't really care much for the core races because they are all so human looking. In fact, if each race looked very unique you might not have so many players going for the exotic. I think you are entirely justified about getting irritated at people who want to play soemthing tricky, but then don't like the LA. It's true that roleplaying a standard race well is a good thing, but D&D is a game for escaping ourselves. Exotic races do that. Additionally i'd like to add that this race isnt just an option, this is one of the core races, along with Goblins...so I really need to lower the LA down so as to make them a viable option for a campaign that starts at 3rd level
hlnovice 02-09-06, 12:59 PM	hummm... RotW p.97-99!!?? :confused:
Plastic Sun 02-09-06, 01:53 PM	hummm... RoW p.97-99!!?? :confused: No, those are terrible and are still unsuited for PCs
hlnovice 02-09-06, 02:36 PM	No, those are terrible and are still unsuited for PCs Terrible and unsuited, care to explain? I think its a great chart to use, it make senses and its more suited then creating stats that already exist!
Lord Psynister 02-09-06, 02:42 PM	+2 Wisdom, -2 Dexterity - I might possibly switch the +2 Wis for +2 Con, but I like this better. As was mentioned before about the Large Size (Long), what you've got there is fine. Speed & Quadraped are fine. Mounted I have a single issue with. The "free" feat is fine. But, when mentioning that they don't take penalties for attacking when mounted, you should also note that they don't receive the +1 attack for being "mounted". Good Natured doesn't fit too well with me. It's not unbalanced or anything, I just don't see the +2 Diplomacy. +2 Sense Motive sits well. While they might tend to be fooled easily, they're used to it, and are extra cautious because of that. I don't see centaurs getting a language of their own, but I have no problem at all with them knowing Sylvan. Creatures of the forest are creatures of the forest, and that's all there is to it. I would give them Sylvan, personally. SF-wise (SF2 is my favorite game of all time, btw) they woudln't have known Sylvan, but at the same time, there was basically only one language in the world... While Ranger is generally a good class for centaurs, if you're going to be basing it off of SF2, it should definitely be Fighter. There were just as many evil centaurs/pegasi in the game that I wouldn't go so far as Paladin, but fighter for sure. D&D-wise, ranger is probably the way to go.
Plastic Sun 02-09-06, 03:48 PM	+2 Wisdom, -2 Dexterity - I might possibly switch the +2 Wis for +2 Con, but I like this better. As was mentioned before about the Large Size (Long), what you've got there is fine. Speed & Quadraped are fine. Mounted I have a single issue with. The "free" feat is fine. But, when mentioning that they don't take penalties for attacking when mounted, you should also note that they don't receive the +1 attack for being "mounted". Good Natured doesn't fit too well with me. It's not unbalanced or anything, I just don't see the +2 Diplomacy. +2 Sense Motive sits well. While they might tend to be fooled easily, they're used to it, and are extra cautious because of that. I don't see centaurs getting a language of their own, but I have no problem at all with them knowing Sylvan. Creatures of the forest are creatures of the forest, and that's all there is to it. I would give them Sylvan, personally. SF-wise (SF2 is my favorite game of all time, btw) they woudln't have known Sylvan, but at the same time, there was basically only one language in the world... While Ranger is generally a good class for centaurs, if you're going to be basing it off of SF2, it should definitely be Fighter. There were just as many evil centaurs/pegasi in the game that I wouldn't go so far as Paladin, but fighter for sure. D&D-wise, ranger is probably the way to go. Inspired by shining Force, they are also their own race...thus the bonuses to Diplomacy and Sense Motive...perhaps I'll replace Sense Motive with Intimidate...they are rather big after...thank you for catching the whole +1 to attack, they shouldn't get that. The RoW comment was rushed, I meant to say they are unsuitable for PCs in my campaign because they dont suit my vision
Shaggy_Shaggs 02-13-06, 06:38 PM	So, how about a last post with the final version with all mods in one place?
Lord Psynister 02-14-06, 07:13 AM	Hmm. This is making me want to consider making the other races of the SF series and run a SF game. That also reminds me that I've never actually complete the first one. Every time I got close, something happened that resulted in my game getting lost. Something I shall have to remedy, I think. Back to the point though, I think we could use a final write up to make sure there's nothing we missed, but I think we're good.
Kaligrad 06-13-06, 05:52 PM	Boo! Boo! Rubbish! Filth! Slime! Muck! Boo! Boo! Booooooo! She said she loved him! But then she gave it all away to marry the prince of slime! The prince of muck! Boo! Boo! BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Plastic Sun 06-14-06, 04:14 AM	Boo! Boo! Rubbish! Filth! Slime! Muck! Boo! Boo! Booooooo! She said she loved him! But then she gave it all away to marry the prince of slime! The prince of muck! Boo! Boo! BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! ...right, okay
questionc 06-14-06, 12:27 PM	-Mounted: Centaurs are always considered mounted and are never required to take ride checks, additionally they are nto required to take Mounted Combat as a prequisite to any feat, nor do they take pentalties to attack for firing or attacking while mounted, Centaurs do not gain the usual bonus to attack for being mounted. By making them mounted, you are opening up a big can of worms. For example... You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving. I assume there's other big problems, but a character that can make a full attack while moving is a big deal. They should just get 2x damage from lance, as Centaurs do, without getting into mounted rules. Also, this creature statistically doesn't make any sense for ranger. His dex penalty and size modifier are both big marks against him for that class.
obrysii 06-14-06, 02:03 PM	By making them mounted, you are opening up a big can of worms. For example... I assume there's other big problems, but a character that can make a full attack while moving is a big deal. They should just get 2x damage from lance, as Centaurs do, without getting into mounted rules. Centaurs are also treated as Mounted for purposes of meeting prerequisits. I think it's fine for this version to also be treated as such.
Plastic Sun 06-14-06, 02:17 PM	By making them mounted, you are opening up a big can of worms. For example... I assume there's other big problems, but a character that can make a full attack while moving is a big deal. They should just get 2x damage from lance, as Centaurs do, without getting into mounted rules. Also, this creature statistically doesn't make any sense for ranger. His dex penalty and size modifier are both big marks against him for that class. Then i'll houserule out the full attack part, plus they are supposed to be favored class Fighter
questionc 06-14-06, 02:50 PM	Centaurs are also treated as Mounted for purposes of meeting prerequisits. I think it's fine for this version to also be treated as such. Is there a source for this? It's in neither the SRD or FAQ. Then i'll houserule out the full attack part, plus they are supposed to be favored class Fighter Ok, then how about this? At level 1, a fighter of this race will have a lance, ride-by-attack, and spirited charge. He will deal x3 damage every round, not provoking AOO from his opponent. If (god save us) he crits, he'll deal 5x damage with a 2-handed weapon. The point I'm trying to get across is... mounted combat is really really powerful and exceptional. Giving this race 2x damage with the lance when charging would be the normal way to make it "like it's allways mounted", and if you want to give it more than that, then there needs to be a justification for why just dealing more damage with a lance isn't enough.
kirby096317 07-03-06, 02:24 PM	If the centaur is strong enough would people be able to ride them? If so have a teammate with ride by attack and other simaler feats delay his actions after getting on and they could both attack at once.
Plastic Sun 07-05-06, 06:31 PM	If the centaur is strong enough would people be able to ride them? If so have a teammate with ride by attack and other simaler feats delay his actions after getting on and they could both attack at once. Yes, I suppose that could happen, but any sane DM would say "No" and I suppose I would as well...as for the lance problem, well that honestly needs to be adressed
strange_person 01-08-07, 02:15 PM	They already get a bonus to Intimidate for being large. Read the skill description. Also, "good natured" as a racial ability that grants an Intimidate bonus reminds me of a scene from The Godfather. It's a very interesting idea, but I'm not sure it's exactly what you're going for. I think the ability to make a full attack with a ranged weapon and move is balanced by the fact that they're large and clumsy. Besides, everyone knows that if you're going to fight someone who's been training as a cavalry archer since the day they were born, you should probaby take steps to limit their mobility and/or ability to shoot at you. That's easier than it sounds: run indoors, or through heavy undergrowth, or climb a tree. You get a cover bonus to AC, and a creature with a 10' reach has to move at half speed through a 5' wide corridor, in addition to any penalties for rubble or obstructions. Also, that size penalty to AC even applies to attacks by caltrops, to which they are especially vulnerable since they have a hard time finding usable footwear. Yes, Spirited Charge+Ride-By Attack is a powerful combination, but again, it's a predictable tactic. Anybody can ready a longspear against the charge and get a simmilar damage multiplier. Four goblins can stand in a row, all of them holding longspears, and all of them get to attack the centaur before the centaur's lance hits any of them. If they've got the Hold the Line feat, it gets even messier for the centaur. So yes, they've got some powerful combat options, but so does anyone with a horse, and they can't dismount to get around the inherent disadvantages of being mounted. That makes them easy to spot and (relatively) easy to anticipate, which is more than enough to make up for the advantages of an almost-feat (they can't actually make ride checks to negate hits against their "mount," which is the main advantage of the Mounted Combat feat). Mounted combat is "powerful and exceptional" because it's generally difficult or impossible in a typical dungeon setting, or even in many outdoors areas, so it has to be impressive when it is possible or it wouldn't be used at all. That same limits apply here; centaurs have a hard time climbing trees, so they get some bonuses when they don't have to. You might want to codify that somehow. Some thing like "As large quadrupeds with inflexible feet and relatively weak upper bodies, centaurs take a -4 (or greater, your call) penalty on climb checks and can never take 10 on climb rolls involving footholds." I would say that they can't have someone ride them because where a normal horse would have the right place for a saddle, they have a torso. The "rider slot" is already taken. Alternatively, you could justify it it by sayiing that centaurs can carry passengers (within the limit of their carrying capacity), but those passengers need to devote their full attention to holding on, just like if they were riding a mount that's not trained for combat and failed the Ride check to to "control mount in battle." The Ride skill doesn't work on centaurs because they aren't of animal inteligence. Other than that, it seems balanced to me. The +2 strength bonus seems appropriate for the same reason that halflings and gnomes have a strength penalty, but if you want to downgrade them a bit more, replacing it with +2 con makes sense too. Yes, +2 con is less valuable; it says so in the DMG.
Plastic Sun 01-08-07, 03:55 PM	They already get a bonus to Intimidate for being large. Read the skill description. Also, "good natured" as a racial ability that grants an Intimidate bonus reminds me of a scene from The Godfather. It's a very interesting idea, but I'm not sure it's exactly what you're going for. I think the ability to make a full attack with a ranged weapon and move is balanced by the fact that they're large and clumsy. Besides, everyone knows that if you're going to fight someone who's been training as a cavalry archer since the day they were born, you should probaby take steps to limit their mobility and/or ability to shoot at you. That's easier than it sounds: run indoors, or through heavy undergrowth, or climb a tree. You get a cover bonus to AC, and a creature with a 10' reach has to move at half speed through a 5' wide corridor, in addition to any penalties for rubble or obstructions. Also, that size penalty to AC even applies to attacks by caltrops, to which they are especially vulnerable since they have a hard time finding usable footwear. Yes, Spirited Charge+Ride-By Attack is a powerful combination, but again, it's a predictable tactic. Anybody can ready a longspear against the charge and get a simmilar damage multiplier. Four goblins can stand in a row, all of them holding longspears, and all of them get to attack the centaur before the centaur's lance hits any of them. If they've got the Hold the Line feat, it gets even messier for the centaur. So yes, they've got some powerful combat options, but so does anyone with a horse, and they can't dismount to get around the inherent disadvantages of being mounted. That makes them easy to spot and (relatively) easy to anticipate, which is more than enough to make up for the advantages of an almost-feat (they can't actually make ride checks to negate hits against their "mount," which is the main advantage of the Mounted Combat feat). Mounted combat is "powerful and exceptional" because it's generally difficult or impossible in a typical dungeon setting, or even in many outdoors areas, so it has to be impressive when it is possible or it wouldn't be used at all. That same limits apply here; centaurs have a hard time climbing trees, so they get some bonuses when they don't have to. You might want to codify that somehow. Some thing like "As large quadrupeds with inflexible feet and relatively weak upper bodies, centaurs take a -4 (or greater, your call) penalty on climb checks and can never take 10 on climb rolls involving footholds." I would say that they can't have someone ride them because where a normal horse would have the right place for a saddle, they have a torso. The "rider slot" is already taken. Alternatively, you could justify it it by sayiing that centaurs can carry passengers (within the limit of their carrying capacity), but those passengers need to devote their full attention to holding on, just like if they were riding a mount that's not trained for combat and failed the Ride check to to "control mount in battle." The Ride skill doesn't work on centaurs because they aren't of animal inteligence. Other than that, it seems balanced to me. The +2 strength bonus seems appropriate for the same reason that halflings and gnomes have a strength penalty, but if you want to downgrade them a bit more, replacing it with +2 con makes sense too. Yes, +2 con is less valuable; it says so in the DMG. I agree with every one of these points for the most part, it's too often that you seen any race with a unique blend of abilities (this one for ecample is packaged as a pre-made mounted warrior) distilled down into another boring set of skills and moderate stat boosts (Oh...look another race with +2 Constitution!) withotu much thoguht given to the fluff over abit of game balance. I think i'll enact some of those changes, I espicially like the climbing one, because i've honestly never been able to wrap my head around them climbing.
Muglock 01-08-07, 08:24 PM	Ahem. I am currently running a fun campaign, where all my players are Gelatinous Cubes. They are also all +0 LA. One of the Gelatinous Cubes does not like centaurs, and eats them. Thank you.
Plastic Sun 01-08-07, 08:34 PM	Ahem. I am currently running a fun campaign, where all my players are Gelatinous Cubes. They are also all +0 LA. One of the Gelatinous Cubes does not like centaurs, and eats them. Thank you. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/MeowMixR/Opinion.jpg Oh no, someone made an already used jab at my race, I better delete the thread! I mean you could at least come up with a different monster schtick than "Gelantinous Cubes" I mean, there is an entire myriad of races out there just waiting to hate my creations, a rainbow of hate you could say.
Muglock 01-08-07, 08:38 PM	Uhh.... I'm the original poster of the Gelatinous Cubes thing. Noob.
Plastic Sun 01-08-07, 11:14 PM	Uhh.... I'm the original poster of the Gelatinous Cubes thing. Noob. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/MeowMixR/NoU2.jpg Yes, but that makes it not an already used jab how? C'mon, come up with at least a different insult than, "Gelatinous Cubes are ridiculous like all other non-core races lololololololololololol!!!!! See i'm being ridiculous by using a race that not many would consider using as a +0 LA race LOLOLOLOL!" If you want to learn how to troll, go to 4chan and then go to /b/ they'll teach you the fine art very quickly. All schoolyard style arguements aside however, i'm going to have to ask you to stop with this entire business, i've fed you as much as i'm going to, if you do it again i'm going to report you alright?
Raptorial 01-08-07, 11:29 PM	On another forum I was at there was a saying-"Don't feed the troll." As for the race, I'd say it has an interesting premise. It's like a lesser centaur.
Plastic Sun 01-08-07, 11:36 PM	On another forum I was at there was a saying-"Don't feed the troll." As for the race, I'd say it has an interesting premise. It's like a lesser centaur. I'm mostly a SA guy, so that's abit harder for me. I think the phrase Lesser Centaur fits what I was going for perfectly, they are basically centaurs that are an attempt to balance them into being an out of the gate playable race. I chose centaurs for this world basically because I wanted to try something different than the normal suite of races, for example in my world Elves are for the most part uncivilized berserkers and frost druids, trying to bring about an Ice age to the continent, bitter over the loss of a great deal of their forests, just trying to put a different spin on thing y'know?
strange_person 01-10-07, 11:57 AM	I agree with every one of these points for the most part, it's too often that you seen any race with a unique blend of abilities (this one for ecample is packaged as a pre-made mounted warrior) distilled down into another boring set of skills and moderate stat boosts (Oh...look another race with +2 Constitution!) withotu much thoguht given to the fluff over abit of game balance. I think i'll enact some of those changes, I espicially like the climbing one, because i've honestly never been able to wrap my head around them climbing. Thank you. I got the skill-penalty idea from a thing in D20 Future- these arachnid-shaped creatures who breathe through holes on the underside of their torso take a -4 on swim checks, since they can't paddle very well and have to jump almost completely out of the water to inhale. It's possible, but it's difficult. I can picture a really obsessive centaur Scout with specially-modified crampon horseshoes and other special gear being able to reliably climb a tree, but it shouldn't be easy.
strange_person 01-10-07, 12:32 PM	Ahem. I am currently running a fun campaign, where all my players are Gelatinous Cubes. They are also all +0 LA. One of the Gelatinous Cubes does not like centaurs, and eats them. Thank you. I congratulate you on both recognizing the relativism inherent in the LA system and on getting a fun game together with such excellent players. I have never met anyone who could really roleplay as an ooze, let alone a whole party of them. You're very lucky. …Why yes, I am immune to sarcasm. Why do you ask? (feeding the trolls is safe as long as they're allergic to whatever you're handing out)
Raptorial 01-10-07, 12:38 PM	I got the skill-penalty idea from a thing in D20 Future- these arachnid-shaped creatures who breathe through holes on the underside of their torso take a -4 on swim checks, since they can't paddle very well and have to jump almost completely out of the water to inhale. Yeah, the Vrusk and their swimming problems..
Draxo 01-10-07, 04:31 PM	OP: I really like your take on the centaurs. I'm a Shining Force fanatic myself, i really love the games. This gets a thumbs up from me, seems really balanced as long as the penalties for the race are taken into account (cant climb etc) Wish i could play something like this, but sadly ive been unable to find an online game that i can make that would allow any interesting race choices. For those who havent played Shining Force, Centaurs are one of the base common races in the world, so for the setting are one of the standard races. this would work perfectly for someone wanting to run a Shining Force style game.
Lord Psynister 01-10-07, 10:55 PM	http://rpol.net/ You can set up any kind of game you want to on there with any kind of rules at all, and there are always people ready and willing to play just about anything you can possibly imagine.
ragoftag 01-11-07, 10:44 AM	Great work in a severely unbroken field! Allowed me to PC an 'encounter-only' race from my game's '70's incarnation. I absolutely could not get them down to even +1. Any chance of your +0ing Gargoyles any time soon?:angelhide
okaynowa 01-11-07, 11:59 AM	Plastic Sun, I like how you approached this design. It's got obvious advantages (Large and fast) and reasonable balancing factors (lower Dex and AC, expensive to equip, Medium-size reach and weapons). Looks like it would be fun to play (the selling point to PCs) and easy to adjudicate (the selling point to DMs). If I were to offer a suggestion, it's that the centaur probably doesn't need the Mounted trait. They can go for Spring Attack instead of Ride-by Attack, and Shot on the Run instead of Mounted Archery. A simple note that they can use lances as if mounted seems to be what you really need. A note on their type and its effects would be good as well. Like the MM entry, they should probably be Monstrous Humanoid, though it's up to you whether or not they have darkvision and any proficiencies as a result (there are precedents for deviation from type-- the elan, for example, is an Aberration that does not have darkvision). Since they don't have any racial Hit Dice to worry about, their type will really only matter for determining which spells affect them, and how.
Plastic Sun 01-11-07, 04:29 PM	Plastic Sun, I like how you approached this design. It's got obvious advantages (Large and fast) and reasonable balancing factors (lower Dex and AC, expensive to equip, Medium-size reach and weapons). Looks like it would be fun to play (the selling point to PCs) and easy to adjudicate (the selling point to DMs). If I were to offer a suggestion, it's that the centaur probably doesn't need the Mounted trait. They can go for Spring Attack instead of Ride-by Attack, and Shot on the Run instead of Mounted Archery. A simple note that they can use lances as if mounted seems to be what you really need. A note on their type and its effects would be good as well. Like the MM entry, they should probably be Monstrous Humanoid, though it's up to you whether or not they have darkvision and any proficiencies as a result (there are precedents for deviation from type-- the elan, for example, is an Aberration that does not have darkvision). Since they don't have any racial Hit Dice to worry about, their type will really only matter for determining which spells affect them, and how. The main problem with giving them monstrous humanoid is the fact that it might actually tip them a little further to LA +1, I suppose I could just give them darkvision and then none of the other benefits besides the ones related to being such a thing. THe mounted thing was to first safeguard against any idiots who would try to say ride a horse or something, and to second demonstatre the inherent advantages of having four legs and height on your opponent, thus allowing you acsess to those specialized feats.
okaynowa 01-12-07, 08:49 AM	Said Plastic Sun:The main problem with giving them monstrous humanoid is the fact that it might actually tip them a little further to LA +1, I suppose I could just give them darkvision and then none of the other benefits besides the ones related to being such a thing. A few simple ways to keep the Monstrous Humanoid type from mattering too much for your characters: Note that since they have no racial hit dice, your centaurs gain their hit points, saving throws, BAB, and skills from class levels, not from their type. Likewise, you can rule that their type does not, in this situation, grant them any inherent weapon or armor proficiencies, and that those are instead derived from class levels. The biggest advantages of type really come into play when you deal with magic. A centaur is immune to charm person because of his type, and a centaur wizard will have different options for alter self than, say, an elven wizard. My recommendations there would be: Ignore the craziness that is polymorph related spells. House rule that spells with the "person" descriptor (charm person, hold person, enlarge person) affect targets of the caster's type. So, the centaur is immune to the elf's charm person, but the elf is also immune to the centaur's charm person. Merely a suggestion-- it's what has worked for me (me and my Level Adjustment-hating ways ;) ).
strange_person 01-12-07, 11:22 AM	Interesting idea, but my impression of the "person" spells was that they resulted from the fact that humanoids are less "firmly defined" in a magical sense, and thus easier to reshape. That's why humans learn the fastest, and why it's easier to permanently turn a human into a Yuan-Ti than the other way around.
okaynowa 01-12-07, 11:58 AM	A pleasing and viable theory, strange_person. I'm admittedly looking at it solely from the metagaming angle. I believe the charm spells (and similar effects) were split between "person" (humanoid targets) and "monster" (targets of any type) versions to restrict spellcasters at lower levels. D&D has now shifted to the acceptance of things that were traditionally "monsters" as valid character races, blurring the categories. A centaur is monstrous because he has six limbs, four of which are hooved; but shouldn't a centaur also be a person when he's a PC in your party and entitled to a share of the loot? As a DM, I want my players to be able to buff their party members (enlarge person), but I don't want them messing too easily with the opponents I send against them (reduce dragon?). Using types is convenient when I'm trying to remember NPCs' general advantages and immunities, but they're inconvenient when they grant a PC the same thing. What makes a good Monster Manual entry and what makes a good player character are two very different things. That's why I like the centaur Plastic Sun has presented here: it's clearly a centaur, but it isn't saddled (:rimshot:) with all the trappings of a monstrous foe.
obsidianrose 03-04-07, 12:30 AM	Sorry for the thread necromancy, but I'm playing one in my current campaign and I need to know WTF a Centaurian War Spear is.
strange_person 06-01-08, 07:48 PM	Probably just a setting-specific weapon. Don't sweat it.