+1/-1 Ability Score Modifiers? [Archive] - Wizards Community

+1/-1 Ability Score Modifiers? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
dzombiex
03-01-07, 06:52 PM Hello,

I own many D20/DND books. Many from WotC and a fair amount from other companies. One thing I have noticed is that I have never found (Or at least do not remember finding) any races with an ability score of +1/-1 combo.

Is this because a modifier like that would be to underpowered, overpowered... or something else.

Working on some new races here and when I was looking at these ability mods in books I noticed the standard seems to be +2/-2 or +4/-2/-2 or +2/+2/-2/-2.

Any thoughts for/against such a modifier? I was debating on making some races with such a mod (using the dmg 3.5 suggestions on ability score balancing), wanted to see if there is some reason for this specifically.

Thanks :)
StevenO
03-01-07, 06:57 PM The reason you only see multiples of 2 is because they ALWAYS represent a full +/-1 to the ability modifier. An odd stat adjustment is basically worthless half the time (no modifier change) but worth a full 2 the other half. It is the same reason that all the Stat adjusting items in the DMG are multiples of +2; odd improvements only help half the people while even improvements work the same for everyone.
Neutronium_Dragon
03-01-07, 06:57 PM There is a reason: It's min-maxable.

Because ability modifiers increment on values of 2, +1/-1 means that you put two odd scores in those stats, and get the same net result as +2/-0 would have given you as far as the mechanics are concerned.

Suppose you have Str 13 (+1), Dex 13 (+1).

+1/-1 means you have Str 14 (+2), Dex 12 (+1). The -1 to Dex ends up being no penalty at all, while Str going from 13 to 14 is the same benefit as it going from 12 to 14 would have been.
Wonton2006
03-01-07, 06:58 PM Well, thing is, +2/-2 is a guaranteed +1/-1 modifier change.

Otherwise, if, let's say, you made half-elves have +1 Dex, -1 Con, some people would just be like "Mwahaha, I'm putting odd stats on both so that my Dex bonus changes, but my Con bonus doesn't. Free AC without loss of hit points!" :evillaugh

..Yeah.

Edit: Aw shoot.. by ONE minute...
AMGriffin
03-01-07, 06:58 PM The reason +1/+1 is never included is it only matters HALF the time. Like a character that has a +1 bonus to Strength and rolls a 14 won't have anything to show for it.

+2s, +4s, those ALWAYS matter.
dzombiex
03-01-07, 07:00 PM There is a reason: It's min-maxable.

Because ability modifiers increment on values of 2, +1/-1 means that you put two odd scores in those stats, and get the same net result as +2/-0 would have given you as far as the mechanics are concerned.

Suppose you have Str 13 (+1), Dex 13 (+1).

+1/-1 means you have Str 14 (+2), Dex 12 (+1). The -1 to Dex ends up being no penalty at all, while Str going from 13 to 14 is the same benefit as it going from 12 to 14 would have been.

Otherwise, if, let's say, you made half-elves have +1 Dex, -1 Con, some people would just be like "Mwahaha, I'm putting odd stats on both so that my Dex bonus changes, but my Con bonus doesn't. Free AC without loss of hit points!"

Thank you all for the insanely fast responses lol. That is pretty much what my assumption was for the lack of +1/-1.

But its good to have it confirmed.

Thanks a bunch.
Zicka
03-01-07, 10:28 PM but it can still be done?

odd #?
StevenO
03-01-07, 10:55 PM Four nearly simultaneous responses that all say the same thing, there must be a reason.

I'd guess a +1/-1 modifier COULD be done but if trying to balance a race you should probably just consider it the same as just having a positive modifier. I've considered using the previously mentioned +1 Dex/-1 Con for Half-Elves but it is effectively no change on final stats.
Shinryouga
03-01-07, 10:59 PM D&D online proves that it can indeed be done, at least with magic items. I dont have the GP values of such boosters, but they exist in that game.

However, I beleive it ONLY works with magic items, and not with racial mods. Magic items are random, garnered with luck from treasure piles, or with boatloads of money from questionable sources, other adventurers, or unscupulous merchants.

Racial modifiers can be min-maxed, almost regardless of what the DM can control, because the DM really can't control where PCs put their own stats. But magic items are under the DM's control, and they appear when and where the DM determines. So +1 strength boosting pair of guantlets can work, and sometimes makes it more rewarding for the person who has an odd score here and there.
Willie the Duck
03-02-07, 01:18 AM but it can still be done?

odd #?

Define "can be done." Is it possible? Well, who's going to stop you? Especially since we are by definition talking about homebrewing something. It is something WotC doesn't do, and considers poor game creation, but you can do it if you like. It won't break the game, just skew it slightly in the favor of someone willing to metagame for that extra attribute modifier.
Jaxgaret
03-02-07, 12:06 PM Four nearly simultaneous responses that all say the same thing, there must be a reason.

I'd guess a +1/-1 modifier COULD be done but if trying to balance a race you should probably just consider it the same as just having a positive modifier. I've considered using the previously mentioned +1 Dex/-1 Con for Half-Elves but it is effectively no change on final stats.

See... here's the thing. A +1/-1 is easily min-maxable. But on the other hand, everyone agrees that Half-Elves are underpowered compared to other PHB raves. So it probably wouldn't be game-breaking to give that bonus to Half-Elves.

For all intents and purposes though, giving them +1 Dex -1 Con is almost equal to just giving them +2 Dex if you're rolling for stats.

In point buy, you can easily use odd stat bonuses for races.
SolenVlos
03-02-07, 01:22 PM My DM always ruled that you can't buy odd plus itens, you only find the even ones (2, 4, 6) but you can make your own, or buy one made just for you (and endure the time of crafting.) buy a willing caster.
CaoSlayer
03-02-07, 01:48 PM I have an interesting houserule for +1/-1 stats, usually when a hybrid race comes from one race with a stat modifier of +2 and other with 0.

It's to create racial features that simulates the benefits and penalties of having a +2/-2 to a stat without actually raising the stat so it not penalises or benefits from class features or when adquiring feats.

So...

str: +-1 to hit and damage and str checks
dex: +-1 to iniciative, AC, reflex saves and dex checks.
con: +-1 hp/level, fort saves and con checks.
int: +-1 skill point level and int checks.
wis: +-1 to will saves and wis checks.
cha: +-1 to cha checks.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dzombiex 03-01-07, 06:52 PM	Hello, I own many D20/DND books. Many from WotC and a fair amount from other companies. One thing I have noticed is that I have never found (Or at least do not remember finding) any races with an ability score of +1/-1 combo. Is this because a modifier like that would be to underpowered, overpowered... or something else. Working on some new races here and when I was looking at these ability mods in books I noticed the standard seems to be +2/-2 or +4/-2/-2 or +2/+2/-2/-2. Any thoughts for/against such a modifier? I was debating on making some races with such a mod (using the dmg 3.5 suggestions on ability score balancing), wanted to see if there is some reason for this specifically. Thanks :)
StevenO 03-01-07, 06:57 PM	The reason you only see multiples of 2 is because they ALWAYS represent a full +/-1 to the ability modifier. An odd stat adjustment is basically worthless half the time (no modifier change) but worth a full 2 the other half. It is the same reason that all the Stat adjusting items in the DMG are multiples of +2; odd improvements only help half the people while even improvements work the same for everyone.
Neutronium_Dragon 03-01-07, 06:57 PM	There is a reason: It's min-maxable. Because ability modifiers increment on values of 2, +1/-1 means that you put two odd scores in those stats, and get the same net result as +2/-0 would have given you as far as the mechanics are concerned. Suppose you have Str 13 (+1), Dex 13 (+1). +1/-1 means you have Str 14 (+2), Dex 12 (+1). The -1 to Dex ends up being no penalty at all, while Str going from 13 to 14 is the same benefit as it going from 12 to 14 would have been.
Wonton2006 03-01-07, 06:58 PM	Well, thing is, +2/-2 is a guaranteed +1/-1 modifier change. Otherwise, if, let's say, you made half-elves have +1 Dex, -1 Con, some people would just be like "Mwahaha, I'm putting odd stats on both so that my Dex bonus changes, but my Con bonus doesn't. Free AC without loss of hit points!" :evillaugh ..Yeah. Edit: Aw shoot.. by ONE minute...
AMGriffin 03-01-07, 06:58 PM	The reason +1/+1 is never included is it only matters HALF the time. Like a character that has a +1 bonus to Strength and rolls a 14 won't have anything to show for it. +2s, +4s, those ALWAYS matter.
dzombiex 03-01-07, 07:00 PM	There is a reason: It's min-maxable. Because ability modifiers increment on values of 2, +1/-1 means that you put two odd scores in those stats, and get the same net result as +2/-0 would have given you as far as the mechanics are concerned. Suppose you have Str 13 (+1), Dex 13 (+1). +1/-1 means you have Str 14 (+2), Dex 12 (+1). The -1 to Dex ends up being no penalty at all, while Str going from 13 to 14 is the same benefit as it going from 12 to 14 would have been. Otherwise, if, let's say, you made half-elves have +1 Dex, -1 Con, some people would just be like "Mwahaha, I'm putting odd stats on both so that my Dex bonus changes, but my Con bonus doesn't. Free AC without loss of hit points!" Thank you all for the insanely fast responses lol. That is pretty much what my assumption was for the lack of +1/-1. But its good to have it confirmed. Thanks a bunch.
Zicka 03-01-07, 10:28 PM	but it can still be done? odd #?
StevenO 03-01-07, 10:55 PM	Four nearly simultaneous responses that all say the same thing, there must be a reason. I'd guess a +1/-1 modifier COULD be done but if trying to balance a race you should probably just consider it the same as just having a positive modifier. I've considered using the previously mentioned +1 Dex/-1 Con for Half-Elves but it is effectively no change on final stats.
Shinryouga 03-01-07, 10:59 PM	D&D online proves that it can indeed be done, at least with magic items. I dont have the GP values of such boosters, but they exist in that game. However, I beleive it ONLY works with magic items, and not with racial mods. Magic items are random, garnered with luck from treasure piles, or with boatloads of money from questionable sources, other adventurers, or unscupulous merchants. Racial modifiers can be min-maxed, almost regardless of what the DM can control, because the DM really can't control where PCs put their own stats. But magic items are under the DM's control, and they appear when and where the DM determines. So +1 strength boosting pair of guantlets can work, and sometimes makes it more rewarding for the person who has an odd score here and there.
Willie the Duck 03-02-07, 01:18 AM	but it can still be done? odd #? Define "can be done." Is it possible? Well, who's going to stop you? Especially since we are by definition talking about homebrewing something. It is something WotC doesn't do, and considers poor game creation, but you can do it if you like. It won't break the game, just skew it slightly in the favor of someone willing to metagame for that extra attribute modifier.
Jaxgaret 03-02-07, 12:06 PM	Four nearly simultaneous responses that all say the same thing, there must be a reason. I'd guess a +1/-1 modifier COULD be done but if trying to balance a race you should probably just consider it the same as just having a positive modifier. I've considered using the previously mentioned +1 Dex/-1 Con for Half-Elves but it is effectively no change on final stats. See... here's the thing. A +1/-1 is easily min-maxable. But on the other hand, everyone agrees that Half-Elves are underpowered compared to other PHB raves. So it probably wouldn't be game-breaking to give that bonus to Half-Elves. For all intents and purposes though, giving them +1 Dex -1 Con is almost equal to just giving them +2 Dex if you're rolling for stats. In point buy, you can easily use odd stat bonuses for races.
SolenVlos 03-02-07, 01:22 PM	My DM always ruled that you can't buy odd plus itens, you only find the even ones (2, 4, 6) but you can make your own, or buy one made just for you (and endure the time of crafting.) buy a willing caster.
CaoSlayer 03-02-07, 01:48 PM	I have an interesting houserule for +1/-1 stats, usually when a hybrid race comes from one race with a stat modifier of +2 and other with 0. It's to create racial features that simulates the benefits and penalties of having a +2/-2 to a stat without actually raising the stat so it not penalises or benefits from class features or when adquiring feats. So... str: +-1 to hit and damage and str checks dex: +-1 to iniciative, AC, reflex saves and dex checks. con: +-1 hp/level, fort saves and con checks. int: +-1 skill point level and int checks. wis: +-1 to will saves and wis checks. cha: +-1 to cha checks.