+2 Int, +2 Cha, LA+0 [Archive] - Wizards Community

+2 Int, +2 Cha, LA+0 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
necrosnoop110
07-21-07, 09:51 PM Any WotC races out there with such a mix? (+2 Int, +2 Cha, LA+0)

Cheers,
Necky
AMGriffin
07-21-07, 09:54 PM It is sorta possible.

A Dragonborn spellscale gray/wood elf would do the trick.

It'd have a stat line of -2 Strength, -2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma.
AZNsupermarket
07-21-07, 10:09 PM It is sorta possible.

A Dragonborn spellscale gray/wood elf would do the trick.

It'd have a stat line of -2 Strength, -2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma.

HUH?

A dragonborn gray elf would be +2 int -2 str
A dragonbron wood elf would be +2 str -2 int

What are you talking about?
BattleofEvermore
07-21-07, 10:11 PM yea races usually have a level adjustment if their ability modifiers don't equal out.
AZNsupermarket
07-21-07, 10:13 PM Any WotC races out there with such a mix? (+2 Int, +2 Cha, LA+0)

Cheers,
Necky

The only LA +0 races with a bonus to both int AND cha is the venerable dragonwrought kobold.

Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold: -4 Str +2 Dex -2 Con +3 Int +3 Wis +3 Cha, small, 30 ft., sorcerer, dragon (kobold, reptilian, dragonblood), monter manual pg.161 and races of the dragon pg. 39

Now if you want LA +0 races with bonus to either int OR cha, here is the complete list:

Here are all your choices from WOTC published material for +0 LA races that get a bonus to intelligence:

Gray Elf: -2 Str +2 Dex -2 Con +2 Int, medium, 30 ft., wizard, humanoid (elf), monster manual pg.104

Sun Elf: +2 Int -2 Con, medium, 30 ft., wizard, humanoid (elf), forgotten realms pg.15

Silvanesti: +2 Dex +2 Int -2 Con -2 Cha, medium, 30 ft., humanoid (elf), dragonlance campaign setting pg.20

Fire Elf: +2 Dex +2 Int -2 Con -2 Cha, medium, 30 ft., wizard, humanoid (elf), unearthed arcana pg.17

Deep Imaskari: +2 Int -2 Dex, medium, 30 ft., spell clutch (su), wizard, humanoid (human), underdark pg.9

Tinker Gnome: +2 Dex +2 Int -2 Str -2 Wis, small, 20 ft., special, dragonlance campaign setting pg.27

Lesser Air Genasi: +2 Dex +2 Int -2 Wis -2 Cha, medium, 30 ft., levitate (sp), fighter, humanoid (planetouched), player’s guide to faerun pg.191

Lesser Fire Genasi: +2 Int -2 Cha, medium, 30 ft., control flames (sp), fighter, humanoid (planetouched), player’s guide to faerun pg.191

Lesser Tiefling: +2 Int +2 Dex -2 Cha, medium, 30 ft., darkness (sp), rogue, humanoid (planetouched), player’s guide to faerun pg.191

Vanara: -2 Str +2 Int +2 Wis, medium, 30 ft. climb 20 ft., spirit shaman, humanoid (vanara), oriental adventures pg.15 – Note: in a 3.5 oriental adventures update found in Dragon magazine, vanara were updated to no longer have any ability score adjustments.

Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold: -4 Str +2 Dex -2 Con +3 Int +3 Wis +3 Cha, small, 30 ft., sorcerer, dragon (kobold, reptilian, dragonblood), monter manual pg.161 and races of the dragon pg. 39

You can also add the Dragonborn of Bahamut pseudo-template without level adjustment to any of the races with a bonus to int (beside the venerable dragonwrought kobold) and gain +2 con -2 dex, which stacks with your original ability adjustments. That may be helpful for a lot of these (especially for races like fire elves and gray elves).

Dragonborn: +2 Con -2 Dex, same as base creature, same as base creature, fighter and the base creatures, humanoid (dragonblood, same as base creature), races of the dragon pg.5

Other than that, you can just increase your age level and suffer the physical ability score penalties.

Here are all your choices from WOTC published material for +0 LA races that get a bonus to charisma:

Star Elf: +2 Cha -2 Con, medium, 30 ft., otherworldly touch (su), extraplanar (su), bard, humanoid (elf), unapproachable east pg.10

Spellscale: +2 Cha -2 Con, medium, 30 ft., sorcerer and same as base creature, humanoid (dragonblood), races of the dragon pg.21

Hellbred (Spirit): +2 Cha -2 Con, medium, 30 ft, hellbound (su), spirit (su), paladin, humanoid (hellbred), Fiendish Codex II pg.78

Lesser Aasimar: +2 Wis +2 Cha, medium, 30 ft., light (sp), paladin, humanoid (planetouched), player’s guide to faerun pg.191

Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold: -4 Str +2 Dex -2 Con +3 Int +3 Wis +3 Cha, small, 30 ft., sorcerer, dragon (kobold, reptilian, dragonblood), monter manual pg.161 and races of the dragon pg. 39

You can also add the Dragonborn of Bahamut pseudo-template without level adjustment to any of the races with a bonus to cha (beside the venerable dragonwrought kobold) and gain +2 con -2 dex, which stacks with your original ability adjustments. That may be helpful for a lot of these.

Dragonborn: +2 Con -2 Dex, same as base creature, same as base creature, fighter and the base creatures, humanoid (dragonblood, same as base creature), races of the dragon pg.5

Other than that, you can just increase your age level and suffer the physical ability score penalties.
Tytalus
07-21-07, 10:24 PM Magic-Blooded [DragonMagazine] Sun Elf does the trick. Total stat adjustments:
CON -2, WIS -2, INT +2, CHA +2.
jaelis
07-21-07, 10:35 PM Um... wouldn't a venerable human get +3 Int, +3 Cha? What does the dragonwrought kobold part get you... just elimination of the physical stat penalties?
AZNsupermarket
07-21-07, 10:37 PM Um... wouldn't a venerable human get +3 Int, +3 Cha? What does the dragonwrought kobold part get you... just elimination of the physical stat penalties?

yes, exactly... but, how playable do you think the venerable human will actually be with -6 penalties to all of his physical stats?
necrosnoop110
07-21-07, 11:08 PM Good show people, thanks.

Necro

Magic-Blooded [DragonMagazine] Sun Elf does the trick. Total stat adjustments:
CON -2, WIS -2, INT +2, CHA +2.
Magic Blooded specifically states that it can only be applied to those races in the Players Handbook so Sun Elf would be out, IIRC.
Rustmonster
07-21-07, 11:13 PM yes, exactly... but, how playable do you think the venerable human will actually be with -6 penalties to all of his physical stats?

Why do you think Dragon Wrought Kobolds don't take aging penalties?

A Venerable Dragon Wrought Kobold would get:
STR -10
DEX -4
CON -8
INT +3
WIS +3
CHA +3

Most won't be strong enough to MOVE.
necrosnoop110
07-21-07, 11:15 PM Would this really be so broken:

GREY ELVES
· –2 Strength, –2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma
· Medium: As Medium creatures, Grey elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
· Grey Elf base land speed is 30 feet.
· Immunity to magic sleep effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects.
· Low-Light Vision: An elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
· Weapon Proficiency: Grey Elves receive no special weapon proficiencies as their long hours in study and engagement among the social and political arenas preclude any such marital training.
· +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it.
· Automatic Languages: Common and Elven. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, and Sylvan.
· Favored Class: Psion or Wizard (selected at first level). A multiclass elf’s psion or wizard class does not count when determining whether she takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing.
AZNsupermarket
07-22-07, 12:12 AM Why do you think Dragon Wrought Kobolds don't take aging penalties?

A Venerable Dragon Wrought Kobold would get:
STR -10
DEX -4
CON -8
INT +3
WIS +3
CHA +3

Most won't be strong enough to MOVE.

Oh yeah? Maybe you should check out page 39 of Races of the Dragon:

Ability penalties due to age do not apply to dragonwrought kobolds. See the Dragonwrought feat, page 100.
Manyfist
07-22-07, 12:18 AM Why do you think Dragon Wrought Kobolds don't take aging penalties?

A Venerable Dragon Wrought Kobold would get:
STR -10
DEX -4
CON -8
INT +3
WIS +3
CHA +3

Most won't be strong enough to MOVE.

Dragon Wrought Kobolds age like dragons. They don't get weaker when they age.
Part-Human2
07-22-07, 01:31 AM Would this really be so broken:

GREY ELVES...

Insofar as you're adjusting a race to fit your needs. That's almost as bad as creating a new race to fit some sort of optimizing need.
AMGriffin
07-22-07, 01:46 AM HUH?

A dragonborn gray elf would be +2 int -2 str
A dragonbron wood elf would be +2 str -2 int

What are you talking about?

Oops.

I did not mean Dragonborn Wood elf, I mean Dragonborn Gray or SUN elf, and then add the spellscale (+2 Cha, -2 Con) template to that.
Rustmonster
07-22-07, 09:43 AM Dragon Wrought Kobolds age like dragons. They don't get weaker when they age.

OH! That kicks awesome! Why would anyone NOT play a venerable Dragon Wrought Kobold?
Mai_ariti
07-22-07, 10:08 AM I don't think there are any wizards races that work but planewalker had Yugoloth Tieflings (http://www.planewalker.com/entry.php?intEntryID=7785) that meet your preq. They are version 3.0 but that isn't too hard to fix. If you only allowed one choice form the LA +1 list it may be ballanced. . .or don't allow choices at all. . .
runestar
07-22-07, 10:13 AM OH! That kicks awesome! Why would anyone NOT play a venerable Dragon Wrought Kobold?
Because they are just 2-3 years from reaching their maximum lifespan and suddenly kicking the bucket?:P
Tytalus
07-22-07, 10:30 AM Magic Blooded specifically states that it can only be applied to those races in the Players Handbook so Sun Elf would be out, IIRC.

It says that these templates can add diversity to the PHB races, and it explains how to add such templates are added to these races. However, there's no explicit restriction to PHB races, as far as I can see. If you like it, it might be worth talking to your DM about. Grey elves (which work, too) are at least core.
necrosnoop110
07-22-07, 11:14 AM It says that these templates can add diversity to the PHB races, and it explains how to add such templates are added to these races. However, there's no explicit restriction to PHB races, as far as I can see. If you like it, it might be worth talking to your DM about. Grey elves (which work, too) are at least core.
“The following racial variants can* be used to create new subraces based on any of the standard races in the Player's Handbook.” (Dragon, April 2003, pg 59)
Notice the word can is used and not the word may.

“Applying a racial variant to one of the standard Player's Handbook races is a relatively simple process, much like a applying a template from the Monster Manual to a monster” (Dragon, April 2003, pg 59)
Notice that it clearly says to not consider these exactly the same as templates in that they can be applied to any race/monster. They function as a template mechanically but can only be applied to the races found within the Players Handbook.

* = my emphasis
AZNsupermarket
07-22-07, 11:17 AM Oops.

I did not mean Dragonborn Wood elf, I mean Dragonborn Gray or SUN elf, and then add the spellscale (+2 Cha, -2 Con) template to that.

Spellscale stat bonuses don't stack with the original stat bonuses. The only thing that transfer over when a race becomes a spellscale is favored class.
necrosnoop110
07-22-07, 12:16 PM Insofar as you're adjusting a race to fit your needs. That's almost as bad as creating a new race to fit some sort of optimizing need.
Yeah, yeah I know (and agree). But in a theoretical sense is it a balanced race?
JulesCARV
07-22-07, 04:30 PM Phrenic incarnate construct warforged. Combine two dubious templates in a dubious manner to get a dubious LA +0 race with a dubious +2 to con, int, and cha, power resistance, a bunch of psi-like abilities, and no penalties! Make 'em dragonborn if you feel like it. I don't care.
Sarlax
07-22-07, 04:45 PM Because they are just 2-3 years from reaching their maximum lifespan and suddenly kicking the bucket?:P
Dragonwrought kobolds live a lot longer than that. Suppose a Charisma 21 (base 18, +3 venerable) first-level sorcerer with gold heritage. He'll live at least 330 years.
yrogerg
07-22-07, 07:07 PM OH! That kicks awesome! Why would anyone NOT play a venerable Dragon Wrought Kobold?

1) Because playing a class that's so uniquely suited for a particular class is rather cheesy. (Seriously: this is like Grey Elves, but worse)
2) Because you still have to play a Kobold
3) There is no three.
yrogerg
07-22-07, 07:09 PM Dragonwrought kobolds live a lot longer than that. Suppose a Charisma 21 (base 18, +3 venerable) first-level sorcerer with gold heritage. He'll live at least 330 years.

Nonono, you're thinking of their natural lifespan. Their average lifespan is still 2-3 years. Because they are, after all, still Kobolds.
yrogerg
07-22-07, 07:13 PM I don't think there are any wizards races that work but planewalker had Yugoloth Tieflings (http://www.planewalker.com/entry.php?intEntryID=7785) that meet your preq. They are version 3.0 but that isn't too hard to fix. If you only allowed one choice form the LA +1 list it may be ballanced. . .or don't allow choices at all. . .

Erm, why are they Lawful Good?? :confused:
lint trap
07-22-07, 07:25 PM The Fraal get +4 to Int and Cha and are LA +0, but you need to get d20 Future to play them.
Tytalus
07-23-07, 04:14 AM Notice the word can is used and not the word may.

[...]

Notice that it clearly says to not consider these exactly the same as templates in that they can be applied to any race/monster. They function as a template mechanically but can only be applied to the races found within the Players Handbook.

* = my emphasis

I see your point, but I believe you are reading too much into it. In that light, I choose to respectfully disagree.
bpkri
07-23-07, 07:06 AM Insofar as you're adjusting a race to fit your needs. That's almost as bad as creating a new race to fit some sort of optimizing need.

In how far is creating a new race or adjusting an existing race worse than picking the right race or race+template for a specific task?

Generally speaking, why is it worse to optimize by choosing something fitting than something that does not fit? Is it a worse choice to make a race witn +int become a wizard than not?

Okay, maybe I am reading too much into this here.

To get +2 on two stats and no LA, a race should, however in my eyes have some negative aspect somewhere, to balance for this. Especially as +2 Int helps with spellcasting and Skills when doing it right.
zook1shoe666
07-23-07, 12:18 PM Nonono, you're thinking of their natural lifespan. Their average lifespan is still 2-3 years. Because they are, after all, still Kobolds.

not Dragonwrought... AS dragonwrought kobolds... their maximum age increases based on their dragon heritage... by either 5 times or 10 times. you need to please check out the race before assuming some of these things.

as AZNsupermarket had listed.... those are really the only races that get either/both Int and Cha bonuses at +0 LA
yrogerg
07-23-07, 09:26 PM not Dragonwrought... AS dragonwrought kobolds... their maximum age increases based on their dragon heritage... by either 5 times or 10 times. you need to please check out the race before assuming some of these things.

as AZNsupermarket had listed.... those are really the only races that get either/both Int and Cha bonuses at +0 LA

...And I was making a joke about Kobolds, and the fact that they're Adventurer-fodder, no matter what their natural lifespan.
zook1shoe666
07-24-07, 11:29 AM ...And I was making a joke about Kobolds, and the fact that they're Adventurer-fodder, no matter what their natural lifespan.

just making sure.... since it didnt really read like a joke... whatever
yrogerg
07-24-07, 07:38 PM just making sure.... since it didnt really read like a joke... whatever

Natural lifespan= how long something lives before it dies of natural causes

Average lifespan= average lifespan, including all causes of deaths, of which adventurers would feature prominently.

See, it's funny, because adventurers kill Kobolds by the dozens, and thus their average lifespan is 1/100th of their natural longevity.

And bing, this joke is dead. Thanks.
Captain_Kobold
07-25-07, 08:42 AM Doesn't death by adventurer count as 'natural causes' for a Kobold? :)
Mai_ariti
07-25-07, 09:37 AM Erm, why are they Lawful Good?? :confused:

Yeah. . .look at the other PC races on Planewalker: They're all Lawful Good. I pray that it is a giant typo and Celestia isn't taking over. . .
Part-Human2
07-25-07, 05:13 PM In how far is creating a new race or adjusting an existing race worse than picking the right race or race+template for a specific task?

Generally speaking, why is it worse to optimize by choosing something fitting than something that does not fit? Is it a worse choice to make a race witn +int become a wizard than not?

Okay, maybe I am reading too much into this here.

To get +2 on two stats and no LA, a race should, however in my eyes have some negative aspect somewhere, to balance for this. Especially as +2 Int helps with spellcasting and Skills when doing it right.

For a DM it's okay to adjust or make a race to fit his campaign world. For a Player to make or change a race to make an optimized character is tantamount to cheating in my books. It's something I call "Power Shopping"; instead of excepting what is given and role-playing something a little different the player creates what he needs.
herceg
07-26-07, 03:08 AM Would this really be so broken:

GREY ELVES
· –2 Strength, –2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma
· Medium: As Medium creatures, Grey elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
· Grey Elf base land speed is 30 feet.
· Immunity to magic sleep effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects.
· Low-Light Vision: An elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
· Weapon Proficiency: Grey Elves receive no special weapon proficiencies as their long hours in study and engagement among the social and political arenas preclude any such marital training.
· +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it.
· Automatic Languages: Common and Elven. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, and Sylvan.
· Favored Class: Psion or Wizard (selected at first level). A multiclass elf’s psion or wizard class does not count when determining whether she takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing.

I fail to se how not-beeing trained how to be married compensates for their additional ability bonuses... ;)

And now, confess: will this be for an ultimate magus char? :)

Btw, IF elves at all are balanced (ok, let's not open that box of Pandora, this also could be. Especially in "official" view, where physical modifiers worth twice the value of mentals (what a bull****, might I add :))

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
necrosnoop110 07-21-07, 09:51 PM	Any WotC races out there with such a mix? (+2 Int, +2 Cha, LA+0) Cheers, Necky
AMGriffin 07-21-07, 09:54 PM	It is sorta possible. A Dragonborn spellscale gray/wood elf would do the trick. It'd have a stat line of -2 Strength, -2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma.
AZNsupermarket 07-21-07, 10:09 PM	It is sorta possible. A Dragonborn spellscale gray/wood elf would do the trick. It'd have a stat line of -2 Strength, -2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma. HUH? A dragonborn gray elf would be +2 int -2 str A dragonbron wood elf would be +2 str -2 int What are you talking about?
BattleofEvermore 07-21-07, 10:11 PM	yea races usually have a level adjustment if their ability modifiers don't equal out.
AZNsupermarket 07-21-07, 10:13 PM	Any WotC races out there with such a mix? (+2 Int, +2 Cha, LA+0) Cheers, Necky The only LA +0 races with a bonus to both int AND cha is the venerable dragonwrought kobold. Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold: -4 Str +2 Dex -2 Con +3 Int +3 Wis +3 Cha, small, 30 ft., sorcerer, dragon (kobold, reptilian, dragonblood), monter manual pg.161 and races of the dragon pg. 39 Now if you want LA +0 races with bonus to either int OR cha, here is the complete list: Here are all your choices from WOTC published material for +0 LA races that get a bonus to intelligence: Gray Elf: -2 Str +2 Dex -2 Con +2 Int, medium, 30 ft., wizard, humanoid (elf), monster manual pg.104 Sun Elf: +2 Int -2 Con, medium, 30 ft., wizard, humanoid (elf), forgotten realms pg.15 Silvanesti: +2 Dex +2 Int -2 Con -2 Cha, medium, 30 ft., humanoid (elf), dragonlance campaign setting pg.20 Fire Elf: +2 Dex +2 Int -2 Con -2 Cha, medium, 30 ft., wizard, humanoid (elf), unearthed arcana pg.17 Deep Imaskari: +2 Int -2 Dex, medium, 30 ft., spell clutch (su), wizard, humanoid (human), underdark pg.9 Tinker Gnome: +2 Dex +2 Int -2 Str -2 Wis, small, 20 ft., special, dragonlance campaign setting pg.27 Lesser Air Genasi: +2 Dex +2 Int -2 Wis -2 Cha, medium, 30 ft., levitate (sp), fighter, humanoid (planetouched), player’s guide to faerun pg.191 Lesser Fire Genasi: +2 Int -2 Cha, medium, 30 ft., control flames (sp), fighter, humanoid (planetouched), player’s guide to faerun pg.191 Lesser Tiefling: +2 Int +2 Dex -2 Cha, medium, 30 ft., darkness (sp), rogue, humanoid (planetouched), player’s guide to faerun pg.191 Vanara: -2 Str +2 Int +2 Wis, medium, 30 ft. climb 20 ft., spirit shaman, humanoid (vanara), oriental adventures pg.15 – Note: in a 3.5 oriental adventures update found in Dragon magazine, vanara were updated to no longer have any ability score adjustments. Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold: -4 Str +2 Dex -2 Con +3 Int +3 Wis +3 Cha, small, 30 ft., sorcerer, dragon (kobold, reptilian, dragonblood), monter manual pg.161 and races of the dragon pg. 39 You can also add the Dragonborn of Bahamut pseudo-template without level adjustment to any of the races with a bonus to int (beside the venerable dragonwrought kobold) and gain +2 con -2 dex, which stacks with your original ability adjustments. That may be helpful for a lot of these (especially for races like fire elves and gray elves). Dragonborn: +2 Con -2 Dex, same as base creature, same as base creature, fighter and the base creatures, humanoid (dragonblood, same as base creature), races of the dragon pg.5 Other than that, you can just increase your age level and suffer the physical ability score penalties. Here are all your choices from WOTC published material for +0 LA races that get a bonus to charisma: Star Elf: +2 Cha -2 Con, medium, 30 ft., otherworldly touch (su), extraplanar (su), bard, humanoid (elf), unapproachable east pg.10 Spellscale: +2 Cha -2 Con, medium, 30 ft., sorcerer and same as base creature, humanoid (dragonblood), races of the dragon pg.21 Hellbred (Spirit): +2 Cha -2 Con, medium, 30 ft, hellbound (su), spirit (su), paladin, humanoid (hellbred), Fiendish Codex II pg.78 Lesser Aasimar: +2 Wis +2 Cha, medium, 30 ft., light (sp), paladin, humanoid (planetouched), player’s guide to faerun pg.191 Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold: -4 Str +2 Dex -2 Con +3 Int +3 Wis +3 Cha, small, 30 ft., sorcerer, dragon (kobold, reptilian, dragonblood), monter manual pg.161 and races of the dragon pg. 39 You can also add the Dragonborn of Bahamut pseudo-template without level adjustment to any of the races with a bonus to cha (beside the venerable dragonwrought kobold) and gain +2 con -2 dex, which stacks with your original ability adjustments. That may be helpful for a lot of these. Dragonborn: +2 Con -2 Dex, same as base creature, same as base creature, fighter and the base creatures, humanoid (dragonblood, same as base creature), races of the dragon pg.5 Other than that, you can just increase your age level and suffer the physical ability score penalties.
Tytalus 07-21-07, 10:24 PM	Magic-Blooded [DragonMagazine] Sun Elf does the trick. Total stat adjustments: CON -2, WIS -2, INT +2, CHA +2.
jaelis 07-21-07, 10:35 PM	Um... wouldn't a venerable human get +3 Int, +3 Cha? What does the dragonwrought kobold part get you... just elimination of the physical stat penalties?
AZNsupermarket 07-21-07, 10:37 PM	Um... wouldn't a venerable human get +3 Int, +3 Cha? What does the dragonwrought kobold part get you... just elimination of the physical stat penalties? yes, exactly... but, how playable do you think the venerable human will actually be with -6 penalties to all of his physical stats?
necrosnoop110 07-21-07, 11:08 PM	Good show people, thanks. Necro Magic-Blooded [DragonMagazine] Sun Elf does the trick. Total stat adjustments: CON -2, WIS -2, INT +2, CHA +2. Magic Blooded specifically states that it can only be applied to those races in the Players Handbook so Sun Elf would be out, IIRC.
Rustmonster 07-21-07, 11:13 PM	yes, exactly... but, how playable do you think the venerable human will actually be with -6 penalties to all of his physical stats? Why do you think Dragon Wrought Kobolds don't take aging penalties? A Venerable Dragon Wrought Kobold would get: STR -10 DEX -4 CON -8 INT +3 WIS +3 CHA +3 Most won't be strong enough to MOVE.
necrosnoop110 07-21-07, 11:15 PM	Would this really be so broken: GREY ELVES · –2 Strength, –2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma · Medium: As Medium creatures, Grey elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. · Grey Elf base land speed is 30 feet. · Immunity to magic sleep effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects. · Low-Light Vision: An elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions. · Weapon Proficiency: Grey Elves receive no special weapon proficiencies as their long hours in study and engagement among the social and political arenas preclude any such marital training. · +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it. · Automatic Languages: Common and Elven. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, and Sylvan. · Favored Class: Psion or Wizard (selected at first level). A multiclass elf’s psion or wizard class does not count when determining whether she takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing.
AZNsupermarket 07-22-07, 12:12 AM	Why do you think Dragon Wrought Kobolds don't take aging penalties? A Venerable Dragon Wrought Kobold would get: STR -10 DEX -4 CON -8 INT +3 WIS +3 CHA +3 Most won't be strong enough to MOVE. Oh yeah? Maybe you should check out page 39 of Races of the Dragon: Ability penalties due to age do not apply to dragonwrought kobolds. See the Dragonwrought feat, page 100.
Manyfist 07-22-07, 12:18 AM	Why do you think Dragon Wrought Kobolds don't take aging penalties? A Venerable Dragon Wrought Kobold would get: STR -10 DEX -4 CON -8 INT +3 WIS +3 CHA +3 Most won't be strong enough to MOVE. Dragon Wrought Kobolds age like dragons. They don't get weaker when they age.
Part-Human2 07-22-07, 01:31 AM	Would this really be so broken: GREY ELVES... Insofar as you're adjusting a race to fit your needs. That's almost as bad as creating a new race to fit some sort of optimizing need.
AMGriffin 07-22-07, 01:46 AM	HUH? A dragonborn gray elf would be +2 int -2 str A dragonbron wood elf would be +2 str -2 int What are you talking about? Oops. I did not mean Dragonborn Wood elf, I mean Dragonborn Gray or SUN elf, and then add the spellscale (+2 Cha, -2 Con) template to that.
Rustmonster 07-22-07, 09:43 AM	Dragon Wrought Kobolds age like dragons. They don't get weaker when they age. OH! That kicks awesome! Why would anyone NOT play a venerable Dragon Wrought Kobold?
Mai_ariti 07-22-07, 10:08 AM	I don't think there are any wizards races that work but planewalker had Yugoloth Tieflings (http://www.planewalker.com/entry.php?intEntryID=7785) that meet your preq. They are version 3.0 but that isn't too hard to fix. If you only allowed one choice form the LA +1 list it may be ballanced. . .or don't allow choices at all. . .
runestar 07-22-07, 10:13 AM	OH! That kicks awesome! Why would anyone NOT play a venerable Dragon Wrought Kobold? Because they are just 2-3 years from reaching their maximum lifespan and suddenly kicking the bucket?:P
Tytalus 07-22-07, 10:30 AM	Magic Blooded specifically states that it can only be applied to those races in the Players Handbook so Sun Elf would be out, IIRC. It says that these templates can add diversity to the PHB races, and it explains how to add such templates are added to these races. However, there's no explicit restriction to PHB races, as far as I can see. If you like it, it might be worth talking to your DM about. Grey elves (which work, too) are at least core.
necrosnoop110 07-22-07, 11:14 AM	It says that these templates can add diversity to the PHB races, and it explains how to add such templates are added to these races. However, there's no explicit restriction to PHB races, as far as I can see. If you like it, it might be worth talking to your DM about. Grey elves (which work, too) are at least core. “The following racial variants can* be used to create new subraces based on any of the standard races in the Player's Handbook.” (Dragon, April 2003, pg 59) Notice the word can is used and not the word may. “Applying a racial variant to one of the standard Player's Handbook races is a relatively simple process, much like a applying a template from the Monster Manual to a monster” (Dragon, April 2003, pg 59) Notice that it clearly says to not consider these exactly the same as templates in that they can be applied to any race/monster. They function as a template mechanically but can only be applied to the races found within the Players Handbook. * = my emphasis
AZNsupermarket 07-22-07, 11:17 AM	Oops. I did not mean Dragonborn Wood elf, I mean Dragonborn Gray or SUN elf, and then add the spellscale (+2 Cha, -2 Con) template to that. Spellscale stat bonuses don't stack with the original stat bonuses. The only thing that transfer over when a race becomes a spellscale is favored class.
necrosnoop110 07-22-07, 12:16 PM	Insofar as you're adjusting a race to fit your needs. That's almost as bad as creating a new race to fit some sort of optimizing need. Yeah, yeah I know (and agree). But in a theoretical sense is it a balanced race?
JulesCARV 07-22-07, 04:30 PM	Phrenic incarnate construct warforged. Combine two dubious templates in a dubious manner to get a dubious LA +0 race with a dubious +2 to con, int, and cha, power resistance, a bunch of psi-like abilities, and no penalties! Make 'em dragonborn if you feel like it. I don't care.
Sarlax 07-22-07, 04:45 PM	Because they are just 2-3 years from reaching their maximum lifespan and suddenly kicking the bucket?:P Dragonwrought kobolds live a lot longer than that. Suppose a Charisma 21 (base 18, +3 venerable) first-level sorcerer with gold heritage. He'll live at least 330 years.
yrogerg 07-22-07, 07:07 PM	OH! That kicks awesome! Why would anyone NOT play a venerable Dragon Wrought Kobold? 1) Because playing a class that's so uniquely suited for a particular class is rather cheesy. (Seriously: this is like Grey Elves, but worse) 2) Because you still have to play a Kobold 3) There is no three.
yrogerg 07-22-07, 07:09 PM	Dragonwrought kobolds live a lot longer than that. Suppose a Charisma 21 (base 18, +3 venerable) first-level sorcerer with gold heritage. He'll live at least 330 years. Nonono, you're thinking of their natural lifespan. Their average lifespan is still 2-3 years. Because they are, after all, still Kobolds.
yrogerg 07-22-07, 07:13 PM	I don't think there are any wizards races that work but planewalker had Yugoloth Tieflings (http://www.planewalker.com/entry.php?intEntryID=7785) that meet your preq. They are version 3.0 but that isn't too hard to fix. If you only allowed one choice form the LA +1 list it may be ballanced. . .or don't allow choices at all. . . Erm, why are they Lawful Good?? :confused:
lint trap 07-22-07, 07:25 PM	The Fraal get +4 to Int and Cha and are LA +0, but you need to get d20 Future to play them.
Tytalus 07-23-07, 04:14 AM	Notice the word can is used and not the word may. [...] Notice that it clearly says to not consider these exactly the same as templates in that they can be applied to any race/monster. They function as a template mechanically but can only be applied to the races found within the Players Handbook. * = my emphasis I see your point, but I believe you are reading too much into it. In that light, I choose to respectfully disagree.
bpkri 07-23-07, 07:06 AM	Insofar as you're adjusting a race to fit your needs. That's almost as bad as creating a new race to fit some sort of optimizing need. In how far is creating a new race or adjusting an existing race worse than picking the right race or race+template for a specific task? Generally speaking, why is it worse to optimize by choosing something fitting than something that does not fit? Is it a worse choice to make a race witn +int become a wizard than not? Okay, maybe I am reading too much into this here. To get +2 on two stats and no LA, a race should, however in my eyes have some negative aspect somewhere, to balance for this. Especially as +2 Int helps with spellcasting and Skills when doing it right.
zook1shoe666 07-23-07, 12:18 PM	Nonono, you're thinking of their natural lifespan. Their average lifespan is still 2-3 years. Because they are, after all, still Kobolds. not Dragonwrought... AS dragonwrought kobolds... their maximum age increases based on their dragon heritage... by either 5 times or 10 times. you need to please check out the race before assuming some of these things. as AZNsupermarket had listed.... those are really the only races that get either/both Int and Cha bonuses at +0 LA
yrogerg 07-23-07, 09:26 PM	not Dragonwrought... AS dragonwrought kobolds... their maximum age increases based on their dragon heritage... by either 5 times or 10 times. you need to please check out the race before assuming some of these things. as AZNsupermarket had listed.... those are really the only races that get either/both Int and Cha bonuses at +0 LA ...And I was making a joke about Kobolds, and the fact that they're Adventurer-fodder, no matter what their natural lifespan.
zook1shoe666 07-24-07, 11:29 AM	...And I was making a joke about Kobolds, and the fact that they're Adventurer-fodder, no matter what their natural lifespan. just making sure.... since it didnt really read like a joke... whatever
yrogerg 07-24-07, 07:38 PM	just making sure.... since it didnt really read like a joke... whatever Natural lifespan= how long something lives before it dies of natural causes Average lifespan= average lifespan, including all causes of deaths, of which adventurers would feature prominently. See, it's funny, because adventurers kill Kobolds by the dozens, and thus their average lifespan is 1/100th of their natural longevity. And bing, this joke is dead. Thanks.
Captain_Kobold 07-25-07, 08:42 AM	Doesn't death by adventurer count as 'natural causes' for a Kobold? :)
Mai_ariti 07-25-07, 09:37 AM	Erm, why are they Lawful Good?? :confused: Yeah. . .look at the other PC races on Planewalker: They're all Lawful Good. I pray that it is a giant typo and Celestia isn't taking over. . .
Part-Human2 07-25-07, 05:13 PM	In how far is creating a new race or adjusting an existing race worse than picking the right race or race+template for a specific task? Generally speaking, why is it worse to optimize by choosing something fitting than something that does not fit? Is it a worse choice to make a race witn +int become a wizard than not? Okay, maybe I am reading too much into this here. To get +2 on two stats and no LA, a race should, however in my eyes have some negative aspect somewhere, to balance for this. Especially as +2 Int helps with spellcasting and Skills when doing it right. For a DM it's okay to adjust or make a race to fit his campaign world. For a Player to make or change a race to make an optimized character is tantamount to cheating in my books. It's something I call "Power Shopping"; instead of excepting what is given and role-playing something a little different the player creates what he needs.
herceg 07-26-07, 03:08 AM	Would this really be so broken: GREY ELVES · –2 Strength, –2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma · Medium: As Medium creatures, Grey elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. · Grey Elf base land speed is 30 feet. · Immunity to magic sleep effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects. · Low-Light Vision: An elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions. · Weapon Proficiency: Grey Elves receive no special weapon proficiencies as their long hours in study and engagement among the social and political arenas preclude any such marital training. · +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it. · Automatic Languages: Common and Elven. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, and Sylvan. · Favored Class: Psion or Wizard (selected at first level). A multiclass elf’s psion or wizard class does not count when determining whether she takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing. I fail to se how not-beeing trained how to be married compensates for their additional ability bonuses... ;) And now, confess: will this be for an ultimate magus char? :) Btw, IF elves at all are balanced (ok, let's not open that box of Pandora, this also could be. Especially in "official" view, where physical modifiers worth twice the value of mentals (what a bull****, might I add :))