A custom made Savage progression for the Titan. Opinions wanted. [Archive] - Wizards Community

A custom made Savage progression for the Titan. Opinions wanted. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Einvaldurinn_mikli
09-25-07, 05:41 PM Alright, this is a savage progression that I and my friend(IRememberCecil) whipped up recently. Thought I'd post it and get some feedback. Please tell me what you think.
A word first though. I've changed the HD, SR and added a new ability to the Titan. This is to make them more suited to being player characters.

The Titan

HD Base Attack Fort Ref Will Special
1. 1d8 +1 +2 +2 +2 Damage Reduction 1/Lawful, Powerful Build,
Natural Armor +1
2. 2d8 +2 +3 +3 +3 +2 Strength, +2 Wisdom
3. 3d8 +3 +3 +3 +3 Damage Reduction 2/Lawful, +2 Intelligence
4. 4d8 +4 +4 +4 +4 +2 Strength, +2 Wisdom, Change Shape,
5. 4d8 +4 +4 +4 +4 Damage Reduction 3/Lawful,
Natural Armor +4,
+4 Constitution, Heroic Spirit +1
6. 5d8 +5 +4 +4 +4 +2 Strength, +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom
7. 6d8 +6/+1 +5 +5 +5 Damage Reduction 4/Lawful
8. 7d8 +7/+2 +5 +5 +5 +2 Strength,, +4 Charisma,
Lesser Spell Resistance,
9. 8d8 +8/+3 +6 +6 +6 Damage Reduction 5/Lawful,
+4 Constitution,
+2 Intelligence,Spell-like Abilities.
10. 8d8 +8/+3 +6 +6 +6 +2 Strength,Natural Armor +7,
Heroic Spirit +2, Large Size
11. 9d8 +9/+4 +6 +6 +6 Damage Reduction 6/Lawful
12. 10d8 +10/+5 +7 +7 +7 +2 Strength, +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom
13. 11d8 +11/+6/+1 +7 +7 +7 Damage Reduction 7/Lawful,
+4 Constitution
14. 12d8 +12/+7/+2 +8 +8 +8 +2 Strength, +2 Wisdom,
Greater Spell Resistance
15. 12d8 +12/+7/+2 +8 +8 +8 Damage Reduction 8/Lawful,
Natural Armor +10,
+2 Intelligence, Heroic Spirit +3
16. 13d8 +13/+8/+3 +8 +8 +8 +2 Strength, +2 Wisdom,
17. 14d8 +14/+9/+4 +9 +9 +9 Damage Reduction 9/Lawful,
+4 Constitution , Wield Oversized Weapon
18. 15d8 +15/+10/+5 +9 +9 +9 +2 Strength, +2 Intelligence, +4 Charisma
19. 16d8 +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +10 +10 Damage Reduction 10/Lawful
20. 16d8 +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +10 +10 +2 Strength, Natural Armor +13,
Heroic Spirit +4,
Huge Size
21. 17d8 +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +10 Damage Reduction 11/Lawful,
+4 Constitution,
+2 Intelligence
22. 18d8 +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +11 +11 +2 Strength, +2 Wisdom
23. 19d8 +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +11 +11 Damage Reduction 12/Lawful
24. 20d8 +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +12 +12 +2 Strength, +2 Intelligence
25 20d8 +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +12 +12 Damage Reduction 13/Lawful,
Natural Armor +16,
+4 Constitution, Heroic Spirit +5
26. 21d8 +21/+16/+11/+6 +12 +12 +12 +2 Strength, +2 Wisdom
27. 22d8 +22/+17/+12/+7 +13 +13 +13 Damage Reduction 14/Lawful,
+2 Intelligence
28. 23d8 +23/+18/+13/+8 +13 +13 +13 +2 Strength, +4 Charisma
29. 24d8 +24/+19/+14/+9 +14 +14 +14 Damage Reduction 15/Lawful,
+4 Constitution
30. 24d8 +24/+19/+14/+9 +14 +14 +14 +2 Strength, Natural Armor +19,
+2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma, +2 Wisdom, Heroic Spirit +6

Class Skills

The Titan's class skills are: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Disguise, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge, Listen, Perform (Oratory), Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Survival, and Swim.
Skill Points at 1st Level:
(8+int)x4
Skill Points at Each Additional Hit Die:
8 + Int modifier

Class features:
Powerful Build: Titans are strong. Really strong. Seriously, their muscles are denser then adamantine. They are also quite big. As a result, they gain Powerful Build at first level. This ability is lost when the Titan becomes large.
The physical stature of Titans lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger. Whenever a Titan is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the Titan is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. A Titan is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A Titan can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.

Damage Reduction:
A Titan gains the Damage Reduction indicated on the table.

Natural Armor:
A Titans skin is preternaturally tough and resilient. Capable of turning even the most powerful of blows and cuts. It grants a Titan a bonus to his AC in a form of a natural armor bonus as shown on the table.

Ability Score Increases:
Titans are simply inherently superior to most(if not all)creatures. Their attributes reflect this accordingly. Whenever the table so indicates, a Titans base stat is increased by the amount shown thereon.

Change Shape:
A titan can assume the form of any Small or Medium humanoid. The titan retains its oversized weapon special attack regardless of form.

Heroic Spirit:
Player characters are special people. Often capable of shaping the fate of an entire material plane. Being such special people, there is no way they are going down to mook killers. The bonus from this class feature is added to your HD when determining whether or not hostile spell affects can effect you. For example, your HD is treated higher when faced with a Blasphemy spell, but not when determining maximum skill ranks or similar things.

Lesser Spell Resistance:
As beings of magic, Titans have an innate ability to negate the magic of others. They gain spell resistance equal to their level+6.(Level, not HD. This diverges from the Titan as written a bit)

Large Size: At this point in time, a Titan has grown big enough to qualify as Large. His size category now increases. He loses his powerful build racial feature.

Spell-like Abilites: Titans have a number of spell like abilities. They gain these spell like abilities at the indicated number of Hit dice. Their caster level equals their HD.
HD 8: At will: Invisibility, Levitate
HD 10: At will: Invisibility Purge
HD 12: At will: Cure Critical Wounds, Charm Monster
HD 14: At will: Hold Monster, Persistent Image
HD 16: At will: Chain Lightning, Greater Dispel Magic, 1/day: Maze, 3/day: Word of Chaos
HD 18: At will: Fire Storm, 1/day: Gate, Meteor Swarm,
HD 20: 3/day: Etherealness, Summon Nature's Ally IX

In addition, Good Titans receive the following spell like abilties:At will—daylight(at HD 10), holy smite (at HD 12) , remove curse (HD 10); 1/day—Greater restoration( at HD 14).
Evil Titans receive these SP abilites: Bestow curse (at HD 10), deeper darkness( at HD 10), unholy blight (at HD 10); 1/day—crushing hand (HD 16). Caster level 20th.
Saves are Charisma based.

Greater Spell Resistance: At level 14, a Titan's spell resistance becomes 12+his level.

Huge size: By now, the Titan towers over lesser beings. He has reached Huge size.

Titan beginning racial traits:
Starting ability score adjustments:
As paragons of physical prowess, Titans are immensely strong. A Titan has a +4 racial bonus on Strength.
A Titans tendons are as steel and his skin like mithral. He starts out with a +1 Natural armor bonus to Armor class.
Titan base land speed is 40 feet.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Medium sized Outsiders.
The chaotic subtype.

Okay. Thoughts? Comments? Opinions? I am especially looking for ideas for real class features that fit the theme of the Titan from levels 25-30. Seems a little dull for an epic level character.
ToastedAmphibian
09-25-07, 06:04 PM Thoughts? Comments? Opinions? .... no, just a question. Why?
Einvaldurinn_mikli
09-25-07, 06:07 PM Thoughts? Comments? Opinions? .... no, just a question. Why?

The idea came to me when reading Dragon #357. Ecology of the Titan. Seeing as how I had planned on experimenting with the LA system anyway, it seemed like a good start. Something powerful and well, crazy like the Titan. I intend to do a few more(and I have, just haven't posted them) later and maybe even play a gestalt campaign someday where everyone has a savage progression on one side of their advancement.
This doesn't really matter though.
ToastedAmphibian
09-25-07, 09:22 PM A gestalt campaigne with savage progressions? Now thats an interesting idea. How would taht work exactly? I assume you would just change the rule that you couldnt take any class levels untill you finished your species levels to say that you have to take one species level at each level untill you run out of species levels?

More importantly though, how would you do the BAB, HD, and saves, considering that most savage progressions only get these every few levels, instead of every level?
Einvaldurinn_mikli
01-21-08, 03:42 PM I thought this deserved a bump, as it got no attention the first time around.
Saefal
02-17-08, 12:48 PM When running a savage progression up one side in Gestalt the best way to keep things balanced is to use the progression table form its creature type and putting that up against the other class while adding on creature abilities during progression.

For Instance this Titan would be a Titan-30 up one side of the Gestalt and let's say a Sorcerer-30 up the other.

Some might think that it would be overpowered to use the racial table but if you actually break down the math, interspersing the bab, hd and save bonuses against a normal level progression is much much worse.

The Titan Sorcerer mentioned above would be very powerful. For instance he would have a +30 bab, d8 for 30 levels, all good saves and 8+int mod skills for all 30 levels. with the creature type table being used. Then you say well there are levels the titan doesn't get anything cause hes missing hd so you should use the sorcerer levels at that point instead. The problem is if you do that then the stacking and math loopholes become ridiculous and you have a character with a +36 Bab, saves 5-6 higher then should be at level 30 and just a few less Hit points and skills which is a easy trade for any player.

In addition to keeping things on a slightly lower keel, fixed type progressions make the progression and math easier for every level. Of course anything in epic gestalt is going to be insane (and a lot of fun) but fixed type progressions for savage species type characters keep the players form using dips and math loopholes to make gods.

I have been running an Epic Gestalt game for about two years now and I can tell you it works much better. Ironically I found this thread when looking for work on a Titan PC for that same game and I like the progression you have here and am going to use it, minus the heroic spirit, I cannot find a reason for that to be on the titan, everything else looks right off the books though so it looks good.
Einvaldurinn_mikli
02-17-08, 12:57 PM You use the better of the two progressions, so if you're a Cleric12//Fighter 2/Sorc 10 you don't have full BAB. You have two levels of Full BAB and 10 levels of 3/4 BAB for a total BAB of 9. That's what I do at any rate.(Meaning, those are my houserules).
Saefal
02-17-08, 02:28 PM right, when using two classes you are correct, I was talking abut using a race up one side of a progression and how to even it out so it doesnt break the math that normal leveling is based off of.
Einvaldurinn_mikli
02-17-08, 03:02 PM Yes, if done incorrectly that could lead to some broken stuff. The Heroic Spirit feature is there for non gestalt games. To make sure that the HD-Level ratio is not out of whack. That leads to problems with Blasphemy, Cloudkill etc.
BrianMc223
02-17-08, 09:25 PM Well I was just messing around with it, and I'm not sure that you care about this or not, but it feels kind of powerful to me at level 20.

It has almost 300 hp, AC in the 40's, and DR10/Lawfull. It's gonna drop a Pitfiend in 2 rounds(Damage wise). I spec'd it with a spiked chain, so it's reach would be great and it's probably going to get several AoO a round. (If you grab Combat Reflexes anyway.) Imp Trip would definably help. (He's gonna win the trip rolls against most things. )

It doesn't get enough feats to be truly breakable, but I thought I would point out that it's very tough depending on the power level of the campaign. (Granted it would probably be a high powered campaign if you were even considering this. )

I'd personally love to play as one.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Einvaldurinn_mikli 09-25-07, 05:41 PM	Alright, this is a savage progression that I and my friend(IRememberCecil) whipped up recently. Thought I'd post it and get some feedback. Please tell me what you think. A word first though. I've changed the HD, SR and added a new ability to the Titan. This is to make them more suited to being player characters. The Titan HD Base Attack Fort Ref Will Special 1. 1d8 +1 +2 +2 +2 Damage Reduction 1/Lawful, Powerful Build, Natural Armor +1 2. 2d8 +2 +3 +3 +3 +2 Strength, +2 Wisdom 3. 3d8 +3 +3 +3 +3 Damage Reduction 2/Lawful, +2 Intelligence 4. 4d8 +4 +4 +4 +4 +2 Strength, +2 Wisdom, Change Shape, 5. 4d8 +4 +4 +4 +4 Damage Reduction 3/Lawful, Natural Armor +4, +4 Constitution, Heroic Spirit +1 6. 5d8 +5 +4 +4 +4 +2 Strength, +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom 7. 6d8 +6/+1 +5 +5 +5 Damage Reduction 4/Lawful 8. 7d8 +7/+2 +5 +5 +5 +2 Strength,, +4 Charisma, Lesser Spell Resistance, 9. 8d8 +8/+3 +6 +6 +6 Damage Reduction 5/Lawful, +4 Constitution, +2 Intelligence,Spell-like Abilities. 10. 8d8 +8/+3 +6 +6 +6 +2 Strength,Natural Armor +7, Heroic Spirit +2, Large Size 11. 9d8 +9/+4 +6 +6 +6 Damage Reduction 6/Lawful 12. 10d8 +10/+5 +7 +7 +7 +2 Strength, +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom 13. 11d8 +11/+6/+1 +7 +7 +7 Damage Reduction 7/Lawful, +4 Constitution 14. 12d8 +12/+7/+2 +8 +8 +8 +2 Strength, +2 Wisdom, Greater Spell Resistance 15. 12d8 +12/+7/+2 +8 +8 +8 Damage Reduction 8/Lawful, Natural Armor +10, +2 Intelligence, Heroic Spirit +3 16. 13d8 +13/+8/+3 +8 +8 +8 +2 Strength, +2 Wisdom, 17. 14d8 +14/+9/+4 +9 +9 +9 Damage Reduction 9/Lawful, +4 Constitution , Wield Oversized Weapon 18. 15d8 +15/+10/+5 +9 +9 +9 +2 Strength, +2 Intelligence, +4 Charisma 19. 16d8 +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +10 +10 Damage Reduction 10/Lawful 20. 16d8 +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +10 +10 +2 Strength, Natural Armor +13, Heroic Spirit +4, Huge Size 21. 17d8 +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +10 Damage Reduction 11/Lawful, +4 Constitution, +2 Intelligence 22. 18d8 +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +11 +11 +2 Strength, +2 Wisdom 23. 19d8 +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +11 +11 Damage Reduction 12/Lawful 24. 20d8 +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +12 +12 +2 Strength, +2 Intelligence 25 20d8 +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +12 +12 Damage Reduction 13/Lawful, Natural Armor +16, +4 Constitution, Heroic Spirit +5 26. 21d8 +21/+16/+11/+6 +12 +12 +12 +2 Strength, +2 Wisdom 27. 22d8 +22/+17/+12/+7 +13 +13 +13 Damage Reduction 14/Lawful, +2 Intelligence 28. 23d8 +23/+18/+13/+8 +13 +13 +13 +2 Strength, +4 Charisma 29. 24d8 +24/+19/+14/+9 +14 +14 +14 Damage Reduction 15/Lawful, +4 Constitution 30. 24d8 +24/+19/+14/+9 +14 +14 +14 +2 Strength, Natural Armor +19, +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma, +2 Wisdom, Heroic Spirit +6 Class Skills The Titan's class skills are: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Disguise, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge, Listen, Perform (Oratory), Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Survival, and Swim. Skill Points at 1st Level: (8+int)x4 Skill Points at Each Additional Hit Die: 8 + Int modifier Class features: Powerful Build: Titans are strong. Really strong. Seriously, their muscles are denser then adamantine. They are also quite big. As a result, they gain Powerful Build at first level. This ability is lost when the Titan becomes large. The physical stature of Titans lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger. Whenever a Titan is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the Titan is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. A Titan is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A Titan can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category. Damage Reduction: A Titan gains the Damage Reduction indicated on the table. Natural Armor: A Titans skin is preternaturally tough and resilient. Capable of turning even the most powerful of blows and cuts. It grants a Titan a bonus to his AC in a form of a natural armor bonus as shown on the table. Ability Score Increases: Titans are simply inherently superior to most(if not all)creatures. Their attributes reflect this accordingly. Whenever the table so indicates, a Titans base stat is increased by the amount shown thereon. Change Shape: A titan can assume the form of any Small or Medium humanoid. The titan retains its oversized weapon special attack regardless of form. Heroic Spirit: Player characters are special people. Often capable of shaping the fate of an entire material plane. Being such special people, there is no way they are going down to mook killers. The bonus from this class feature is added to your HD when determining whether or not hostile spell affects can effect you. For example, your HD is treated higher when faced with a Blasphemy spell, but not when determining maximum skill ranks or similar things. Lesser Spell Resistance: As beings of magic, Titans have an innate ability to negate the magic of others. They gain spell resistance equal to their level+6.(Level, not HD. This diverges from the Titan as written a bit) Large Size: At this point in time, a Titan has grown big enough to qualify as Large. His size category now increases. He loses his powerful build racial feature. Spell-like Abilites: Titans have a number of spell like abilities. They gain these spell like abilities at the indicated number of Hit dice. Their caster level equals their HD. HD 8: At will: Invisibility, Levitate HD 10: At will: Invisibility Purge HD 12: At will: Cure Critical Wounds, Charm Monster HD 14: At will: Hold Monster, Persistent Image HD 16: At will: Chain Lightning, Greater Dispel Magic, 1/day: Maze, 3/day: Word of Chaos HD 18: At will: Fire Storm, 1/day: Gate, Meteor Swarm, HD 20: 3/day: Etherealness, Summon Nature's Ally IX In addition, Good Titans receive the following spell like abilties:At will—daylight(at HD 10), holy smite (at HD 12) , remove curse (HD 10); 1/day—Greater restoration( at HD 14). Evil Titans receive these SP abilites: Bestow curse (at HD 10), deeper darkness( at HD 10), unholy blight (at HD 10); 1/day—crushing hand (HD 16). Caster level 20th. Saves are Charisma based. Greater Spell Resistance: At level 14, a Titan's spell resistance becomes 12+his level. Huge size: By now, the Titan towers over lesser beings. He has reached Huge size. Titan beginning racial traits: Starting ability score adjustments: As paragons of physical prowess, Titans are immensely strong. A Titan has a +4 racial bonus on Strength. A Titans tendons are as steel and his skin like mithral. He starts out with a +1 Natural armor bonus to Armor class. Titan base land speed is 40 feet. Darkvision out to 60 feet. Medium sized Outsiders. The chaotic subtype. Okay. Thoughts? Comments? Opinions? I am especially looking for ideas for real class features that fit the theme of the Titan from levels 25-30. Seems a little dull for an epic level character.
ToastedAmphibian 09-25-07, 06:04 PM	Thoughts? Comments? Opinions? .... no, just a question. Why?
Einvaldurinn_mikli 09-25-07, 06:07 PM	Thoughts? Comments? Opinions? .... no, just a question. Why? The idea came to me when reading Dragon #357. Ecology of the Titan. Seeing as how I had planned on experimenting with the LA system anyway, it seemed like a good start. Something powerful and well, crazy like the Titan. I intend to do a few more(and I have, just haven't posted them) later and maybe even play a gestalt campaign someday where everyone has a savage progression on one side of their advancement. This doesn't really matter though.
ToastedAmphibian 09-25-07, 09:22 PM	A gestalt campaigne with savage progressions? Now thats an interesting idea. How would taht work exactly? I assume you would just change the rule that you couldnt take any class levels untill you finished your species levels to say that you have to take one species level at each level untill you run out of species levels? More importantly though, how would you do the BAB, HD, and saves, considering that most savage progressions only get these every few levels, instead of every level?
Einvaldurinn_mikli 01-21-08, 03:42 PM	I thought this deserved a bump, as it got no attention the first time around.
Saefal 02-17-08, 12:48 PM	When running a savage progression up one side in Gestalt the best way to keep things balanced is to use the progression table form its creature type and putting that up against the other class while adding on creature abilities during progression. For Instance this Titan would be a Titan-30 up one side of the Gestalt and let's say a Sorcerer-30 up the other. Some might think that it would be overpowered to use the racial table but if you actually break down the math, interspersing the bab, hd and save bonuses against a normal level progression is much much worse. The Titan Sorcerer mentioned above would be very powerful. For instance he would have a +30 bab, d8 for 30 levels, all good saves and 8+int mod skills for all 30 levels. with the creature type table being used. Then you say well there are levels the titan doesn't get anything cause hes missing hd so you should use the sorcerer levels at that point instead. The problem is if you do that then the stacking and math loopholes become ridiculous and you have a character with a +36 Bab, saves 5-6 higher then should be at level 30 and just a few less Hit points and skills which is a easy trade for any player. In addition to keeping things on a slightly lower keel, fixed type progressions make the progression and math easier for every level. Of course anything in epic gestalt is going to be insane (and a lot of fun) but fixed type progressions for savage species type characters keep the players form using dips and math loopholes to make gods. I have been running an Epic Gestalt game for about two years now and I can tell you it works much better. Ironically I found this thread when looking for work on a Titan PC for that same game and I like the progression you have here and am going to use it, minus the heroic spirit, I cannot find a reason for that to be on the titan, everything else looks right off the books though so it looks good.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 02-17-08, 12:57 PM	You use the better of the two progressions, so if you're a Cleric12//Fighter 2/Sorc 10 you don't have full BAB. You have two levels of Full BAB and 10 levels of 3/4 BAB for a total BAB of 9. That's what I do at any rate.(Meaning, those are my houserules).
Saefal 02-17-08, 02:28 PM	right, when using two classes you are correct, I was talking abut using a race up one side of a progression and how to even it out so it doesnt break the math that normal leveling is based off of.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 02-17-08, 03:02 PM	Yes, if done incorrectly that could lead to some broken stuff. The Heroic Spirit feature is there for non gestalt games. To make sure that the HD-Level ratio is not out of whack. That leads to problems with Blasphemy, Cloudkill etc.
BrianMc223 02-17-08, 09:25 PM	Well I was just messing around with it, and I'm not sure that you care about this or not, but it feels kind of powerful to me at level 20. It has almost 300 hp, AC in the 40's, and DR10/Lawfull. It's gonna drop a Pitfiend in 2 rounds(Damage wise). I spec'd it with a spiked chain, so it's reach would be great and it's probably going to get several AoO a round. (If you grab Combat Reflexes anyway.) Imp Trip would definably help. (He's gonna win the trip rolls against most things. ) It doesn't get enough feats to be truly breakable, but I thought I would point out that it's very tough depending on the power level of the campaign. (Granted it would probably be a high powered campaign if you were even considering this. ) I'd personally love to play as one.