Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Uchiha_Arthas 10-25-07, 07:38 AM	Need some help with the buying off LA system from Unearthed Arcana and using levels to build up a Half-Dragon abilities in the Races of the Dragon book (Its near the Half-Dragons beyond MM1 Section, Dont have the exact page number on me). Currently I am a Level 3 Duskblade with One Level in Half-Dragon giving me an ECL of 4 and LA +1. Now I still have two more levels to buy in the Half-Dragon template (If I choose to buy one level, I have to buy the second immediatly afterwards bu I can choose when I want to buy.). Now lets say I wanted to lower my ECL as in the UA book. Should I have already bought the extra level off when I reached ECL 3 or do I have to buy it off at ECL 9 as I will (over the course of my adventuring, which might be after ECL 9) become a LA +3 character? Second: Natural Attacks, as a Half Dragon I get them but how do they mix with my normal ones: I.E I reach level 8 in Duskblade (also have Level 2 in Half Dragon so I have a bite and Claw Attacks) and get a second attack. So I get the full attack (1-H Weapon) at +8/+3 and then natural attacks at +8 (Bite)/+3 (Claw) as well? Third: Breath Weapon, I believe the Saving throw is listed as 10 + 1/2 Racial HD + Con Mod. Do Racial HD here mean only my Levels in Half-Dragon, only my levels in Duskblade or my ECL?
Tordak 10-25-07, 08:23 AM	Currently I am a Level 3 Duskblade with One Level in Half-Dragon giving me an ECL of 4 and LA +1. Now I still have two more levels to buy in the Half-Dragon template (If I choose to buy one level, I have to buy the second immediatly afterwards bu I can choose when I want to buy.). Now lets say I wanted to lower my ECL as in the UA book. Should I have already bought the extra level off when I reached ECL 3 or do I have to buy it off at ECL 9 as I will (over the course of my adventuring, which might be after ECL 9) become a LA +3 character? In UA (also described in SRD), the LA buy off is built for starting LA, not LA gain through the game (not that you couldn't do it, it's just that the rules don't seem to cover it). If you gain template along the way it would be possible to gain up to a +6 LA and buy it off (suppose all template are at +1 LA) within 20 character levels, while usually you can only fully buy a LA +3 (at LA +4, you can only buy it off once and reduce it to LA +3). Also, you don't buy level at ECL (LAx3) but at level (LAx3) (and not including racial Hit Dice). This means you are eligible to buy your first LA at level 9 character class, so ECL 12 , second LA is bought 6 level later (15 class levels, ECL 17), last one with 18 class levels (3 level later, ECL 19). It gets a lot harder the more LA you have. Now If your DM allows it that way, you can buy your LA right away since you're already level 3. You would then be a 3rd level Duskblade. If I understand correctly you're using the half-dragon class form the Races of the Dragons, so you will eventualy have to take level in that class to gain the half-dragon template. When you take the next one (3rd level, +2 LA total), you will also have to spend your next level taking the last one (read it, you'll understand what I mean). So if your DM allows it, you could buy your first now, then whenever you take your last 2 level of half-dragon, you will get a +2 LA and will have to wait 6 class level to be eligible for your first LA reduction and then an additionnal 3 level for the last one. If you want to do it within 20 levels I suggest you take the half-dragon levels early on. This bieng said I don't think any DM should allow this since it can lead to some abuses with templates, or should limit this by limiting the number of template. This means you have to wait until you get the full +3 to start using the buy off rule. Second: Natural Attacks, as a Half Dragon I get them but how do they mix with my normal ones: I.E I reach level 8 in Duskblade (also have Level 2 in Half Dragon so I have a bite and Claw Attacks) and get a second attack. So I get the full attack (1-H Weapon) at +8/+3 and then natural attacks at +8 (Bite)/+3 (Claw) as well? I think that's right except you would get the bite as a secondary at +3 (base -5) and your claw as an additional secondary (also at +3 I think, though this could be subject to 2-weapons fighting). Of course you only get the additional claw if your clawed hand is not holding anything. Third: Breath Weapon, I believe the Saving throw is listed as 10 + 1/2 Racial HD + Con Mod. Do Racial HD here mean only my Levels in Half-Dragon, only my levels in Duskblade or my ECL? That's correct. Templates are not often meant for players and often suppose the base creature as some racial HD (most monster in monster manual do), so it's only half your racial HD. Of course the DM could rule otherwise, it could be 1/2 you character level. You'll see that the Dragon Disciplie (DMG) has a breath DC of 10 + class level + con mod. Dragon Shaman have a breath weapon that has DC 10 + 1/2 class level + con mod. I think the main point is that within 20 levels players only get a + 10 to the DC from level only. You can raise the DC by other means.
Bahumut 10-25-07, 09:57 AM	That's correct. Templates are not often meant for players and often suppose the base creature as some racial HD (most monster in monster manual do), so it's only half your racial HD. Of course the DM could rule otherwise, it could be 1/2 you character level. You'll see that the Dragon Disciplie (DMG) has a breath DC of 10 + class level + con mod. Dragon Shaman have a breath weapon that has DC 10 + 1/2 class level + con mod. I think the main point is that within 20 levels players only get a + 10 to the DC from level only. You can raise the DC by other means. IIRC, only "racial" hit die add to your DC, as in any levels of "humanoid" or "Giant" that you had before you became a half-dragon. Example: a Centaur has 4 "Monstrous Humanoid" hit die along with its +2 LA, so you would add those 4 into the calculation if you made it into a half-dragon. also remember, anything with 1 racial HD replaces it when they take their first class. one last thing to remember, the half-dragon progression thing in the RotD is a template class, therefore you dont get any HD from it. just +1 LA for 2nd, 3rd, and 4th level.
Uchiha_Arthas 10-25-07, 10:19 AM	Really really big thanks for the aid Tordak, that was extremely helpful but could I bother you for some clarifications? In UA (also described in SRD), the LA buy off is built for starting LA, not LA gain through the game (not that you couldn't do it, it's just that the rules don't seem to cover it). If you gain template along the way it would be possible to gain up to a +6 LA and buy it off (suppose all template are at +1 LA) within 20 character levels, while usually you can only fully buy a LA +3 (at LA +4, you can only buy it off once and reduce it to LA +3). Also, you don't buy level at ECL (LAx3) but at level (LAx3) (and not including racial Hit Dice). This means you are eligible to buy your first LA at level 9 character class, so ECL 12 , second LA is bought 6 level later (15 class levels, ECL 17), last one with 18 class levels (3 level later, ECL 19). It gets a lot harder the more LA you have. *Nods* I see about the Level (LAx3) thing but I have a question but I have a question: Say I am Duskblade (2)/Half-Dragon(1) [LA+1] and then I gain enough XP for my 4th ECL. So do I give up my XP then and remain DB(2) & 1/2Drag(1)with LA+0? Or do I wait until I am Duskblade (3)/Half-Dragon(1) [LA+1] and then I gain enough XP for my 5th ECL and then give up my XP for LA+0? Now If your DM allows it that way, you can buy your LA right away since you're already level 3. You would then be a 3rd level Duskblade. If I understand correctly you're using the half-dragon class form the Races of the Dragons, so you will eventualy have to take level in that class to gain the half-dragon template. When you take the next one (3rd level, +2 LA total), you will also have to spend your next level taking the last one (read it, you'll understand what I mean). So if your DM allows it, you could buy your first now, then whenever you take your last 2 level of half-dragon, you will get a +2 LA and will have to wait 6 class level to be eligible for your first LA reduction and then an additionnal 3 level for the last one. If you want to do it within 20 levels I suggest you take the half-dragon levels early on. This bieng said I don't think any DM should allow this since it can lead to some abuses with templates, or should limit this by limiting the number of template. This means you have to wait until you get the full +3 to start using the buy off rule. Read it already and liked what I saw. I am uncertain about how many levels I want to buy off though. I dont mind buying off one level but I am uncertain about buying off more. I am also looking into buying the Item Familiar Feat from UA. Putting 10% of my XP in my weapon for an extra 10% return sounds nice. I think that's right except you would get the bite as a secondary at +3 (base -5) and your claw as an additional secondary (also at +3 I think, though this could be subject to 2-weapons fighting). Of course you only get the additional claw if your clawed hand is not holding anything. So not counting the two weapon penalty (will check about it later) the adjusted attacks would be +6/+3/+3(Bite)/+3(Claw). That's correct. Templates are not often meant for players and often suppose the base creature as some racial HD (most monster in monster manual do), so it's only half your racial HD. Of course the DM could rule otherwise, it could be 1/2 you character level. You'll see that the Dragon Disciplie (DMG) has a breath DC of 10 + class level + con mod. Dragon Shaman have a breath weapon that has DC 10 + 1/2 class level + con mod. I think the main point is that within 20 levels players only get a + 10 to the DC from level only. You can raise the DC by other means. hmm...I think my DM will let go with DC 10 + 1/2 Class Level + Con Mod. They really should clarify that though.
Bahumut 10-25-07, 10:51 AM	also, make sure you take Dragon Breath from RotD when you have 6 HD. breath weapon every 1d4 rounds? yes please! :D
Tordak 10-25-07, 12:03 PM	*Nods* I see about the Level (LAx3) thing but I have a question but I have a question: Say I am Duskblade (2)/Half-Dragon(1) [LA+1] and then I gain enough XP for my 4th ECL. So do I give up my XP then and remain DB(2) & 1/2Drag(1)with LA+0? Or do I wait until I am Duskblade (3)/Half-Dragon(1) [LA+1] and then I gain enough XP for my 5th ECL and then give up my XP for LA+0? You have to wait until you have 3 duskblade level, that is Duskblade 3/Half-Dragon 1. By the time you get there, you should have 10 000 xp. You pay (current ECL =4)-1 x 1000 xp, that's 3000 xp. You than become Duskblade 3, with the template half-dragon 1 (it's actually the draconic template), and your ECL is 3. That's how it would work with your character if, once again, you can buy LA as you as you acquire it. So not counting the two weapon penalty (will check about it later) the adjusted attacks would be +6/+3/+3(Bite)/+3(Claw). Yeah, I believe so. And even with 2-weapons fighting penalties (which I don't think you get, but you should double check to be sure), you still have your bite at +3. hmm...I think my DM will let go with DC 10 + 1/2 Class Level + Con Mod. They really should clarify that though. As I said template were usually not meant for players at first, but are you positive that it's '1/2 HD' even in the book Races of Dragons? If so I think house rules are in order. Well good luck with your half-dragon Duskblade.
Uchiha_Arthas 10-25-07, 01:30 PM	also, make sure you take Dragon Breath from RotD when you have 6 HD. breath weapon every 1d4 rounds? yes please! :D Thanks for reminding me about that feat :). I was planning on taking Arcane Strike as my 6th level feat (you need BAB +4 to take it) but I might just take Dragon Breath instead and leave Arcane Strike for 9th. hmm...6d8 every 1d4 rounds or sacrifice a spell for +1 Attack per level of spell and 1d4xSpell level to all attacks made that round....*sigh* decisions decisions.... You have to wait until you have 3 duskblade level, that is Duskblade 3/Half-Dragon 1. By the time you get there, you should have 10 000 xp. You pay (current ECL =4)-1 x 1000 xp, that's 3000 xp. You than become Duskblade 3, with the template half-dragon 1 (it's actually the draconic template), and your ECL is 3. That's how it would work with your character if, once again, you can buy LA as you as you acquire it. *Nods* I'll discuss it with my GM then, Again thanks for all your help Tordak. I do think that the Half-Dragon Template/Level system they provided in RoD does give a way to avoid abuse by insisting that you take a certain number of levels in sequence. ie. Your very first level has to be in the template and then next time upgrading you have to upgrade two levels at once but considering all the trouble I had working the buying off LA thing out....*meh* Yeah, I believe so. And even with 2-weapons fighting penalties (which I don't think you get, but you should double check to be sure), you still have your bite at +3. :) As I said template were usually not meant for players at first, but are you positive that it's '1/2 HD' even in the book Races of Dragons? If so I think house rules are in order. Well good luck with your half-dragon Duskblade. It does and the House Rule will probably be with me. Thanks, already had great luck with him last session actually. Cast a Shocking Grasp Spell (3d6) and rolled a natural 18. According to the DM the mook guard's head went flying off... :D
Tordak 10-25-07, 02:20 PM	*Nods* I'll discuss it with my GM then, Again thanks for all your help Tordak. I do think that the Half-Dragon Template/Level system they provided in RoD does give a way to avoid abuse by insisting that you take a certain number of levels in sequence. ie. Your very first level has to be in the template and then next time upgrading you have to upgrade two levels at once but considering all the trouble I had working the buying off LA thing out....*meh* It sort of does (as soon as you take level 3 you must take next level 4), but again bying a +1 then a +2 later is quicker then a +3, you could be done by level 12 instead of 18. Altough I really don't think that this is abusive, and by the time you get to level 18 (if it goes that far), it will make no difference. Enjoy :)
blade265 10-26-07, 03:15 AM	Second: Natural Attacks, as a Half Dragon I get them but how do they mix with my normal ones: I.E I reach level 8 in Duskblade (also have Level 2 in Half Dragon so I have a bite and Claw Attacks) and get a second attack. So I get the full attack (1-H Weapon) at +8/+3 and then natural attacks at +8 (Bite)/+3 (Claw) as well? Yes and no! This from Wizards CustService, "If you use your base attack given multiple attacks you can use one natural attack at the end but not the entire set of natural attacks", also if you are using a weapon for the first group of attacks then Two Weapon fighting penalties would apply. So without TWF feat your attacks would be +2/-3 (weapon) and -2(bite) or +2/-3 (weapon) and -7(claws).
Bahumut 10-26-07, 03:56 AM	Yes and no! This from Wizards CustService, "If you use your base attack given multiple attacks you can use one natural attack at the end but not the entire set of natural attacks" is that in any errata? i didn't think it worked that way, but i could VERY much be wrong. if its not errata, can you give me a link? also if you are using a weapon for the first group of attacks then Two Weapon fighting penalties would apply. So without TWF feat your attacks would be +2/-3 (weapon) and -2(bite) or +2/-3 (weapon) and -7(claws). this i do know doesnt work that way. natural attacks never suffer from TWF penalties, they use the primary/secondary attack system ie. if you swing a longsword then take a swipe with your claw, the claw is considered a "secondary" natural attack, and suffers a -5 penalty (-2 if you take multiattack). using your example, your duskblade would get his +8/+3 with his weapon, and a +3 swipe with a claw (and maybe a +3 bite, depending if blade is right or not).
imakuni67 10-26-07, 11:15 AM	using your example, your duskblade would get his +8/+3 with his weapon, and a +3 swipe with a claw (and maybe a +3 bite, depending if blade is right or not). With +8/+3 you could do the following (not factoring in strength and other bonuses to attack rolls) as a full attack. Claw +8/Claw +8/Bite +3 (primary/primary/secondary) Claw +8/1-handed weapon (one handed) +4/Bite +3 (on-hand/off-hand/secondary) 1-handed weapon (one handed) +8/+3/Claw +3/Bite +3 (manufactured/secondary/secondary) 1-handed weapon (two handed) or two-handed weapon +8/+3/Bite +3 (manufactured/secondary)
Uchiha_Arthas 10-26-07, 03:03 PM	Thanks for all the responses guys, I think I get how natural attacks works now. P.S: For those who are slightly interested my GM sided with Tordak in this matter and said if I wanted to buy off the LA I could only start at 9th and had to have become a full Half dragon by then. Other then that had a great time with my Half-Blue Dragon. :)