Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Runningyellowstream 10-08-07, 03:35 AM	A PC in my group has asked me to try and make him a race that has a +0 LA and telekinesis/at will by level 5 (i.e. it gains the ability at 5th level) he also asked that i try to do so without lowering constitution or charisma. Looking through savage species i believe that the ability itself is worth +2 LA at least without mitigating factors. Lowering size to small can lower it to +1 now this is all assuming +0 LA stats are in place (bonus feat, skill bonuses, etc.) as noted in savage species and that the caster level of the effect is equal to hitdice so would the removal of some or all of these things be able to reduce the LA to 0 or will there need to be a penalty in the ability scores, or caster level of the ability perhaps?
calronmoonflower 10-08-07, 04:02 AM	Use Far Hand as a psi-like ability. That shouldn't be overpowered as +0 as long as you don't go crazy.
Bahumut 10-08-07, 04:03 AM	that is a VERY dangerous ability to be able to do at will... remember, the "caster" can mentally move an object weighing up to 25 pound per level, OR the caster my attempt to telekinetically Bull Rush, Disarm, Grapple (including Pin), or Trip an opponent. These actions are resolved normally, except that the Caster level is used in place of a Base Attack Bonus, & the caster’s Primary Stat modifier is used instead of Strength or Dexterity. There is no save, but SR applies. The caster may continue this effect by Concentrating, up to 1rnd/lvl, OR Up to 15 target objects (up to the total weight allowance) are hurled in a desired direction rapidly, expending the spell instantaneously. All target objects must be within a 10’ area & can be thrown up to 10’/lvl. In order to hit a creature with a targeted object, the caster must make an attack roll, using his/her Base Attack Bonus + Primary Stat modifier. If the target object was a weapon, it does normal damage (no Strength modifier), while other objects do from 1hp to 1d6hp damage per 25 pounds, depending on the object. If a creature is to be thrown, it receives a Will save to negated (SR applies) & it takes 1d6 damage if thrown against a wall... and those can all be done at a range of 400 FEET + 40 FEET/LEVEL. not a rant, just something to think about. it 4 am here, and i got 4 more hours to go, so i may not be super coherent right now. can you guys make some of that comprehensible? :D
war_thog 10-08-07, 10:00 AM	It doesnt exist in the books because it bloody well should never happen. Thats scarily dangerous. Make him get it the good old fashioned way. Be a wizard with 5th level spells. A ghost can do it aswell, but well, that doesnt fit all campaigns for obvious reasons.
RobbyPants 10-08-07, 02:02 PM	Yeah, as others have mentioned, not only is an at-will spell-like ability potentially dangerous, your player wants a 5th level spell at level 5 instead of level 9. As suggested, Mage Hand/Far Hand are probably your best bet, and it will at least give you some cool flavor.
Runningyellowstream 10-08-07, 02:04 PM	Far hand as a psilike ability would probably make it easier to be balancing but im not familiar with psionics, I've actually never been in a group that used psionics though i personally have the ExPH, and nobody in my current group is familiar with psionics so it would be the shortsighted leading the blind. As for advancing as wizard I already told the PC that advancing as a wizard would make it easier but he wants it as an ability because he wants to be more combat oriented, meaning he will have to worry about arcane spell failure, poor BAB and a loss of 2 feats as a fighter in exchange for scribe scroll and a metamagic or item creation feat still i agree it is hard to look at and say its reasonable so hes just gonna have to rethink his character concept.
Midvalley 10-08-07, 03:03 PM	As for advancing as wizard I already told the PC that advancing as a wizard would make it easier but he wants it as an ability because he wants to be more combat oriented, meaning he will have to worry about arcane spell failure, poor BAB and a loss of 2 feats as a fighter in exchange for scribe scroll and a metamagic or item creation feat still i agree it is hard to look at and say its reasonable so hes just gonna have to rethink his character concept. Taking this into consideration, I'd do the following: Make a PRC that the Character can enter at 9th level, that will allow them to be say...a fighter or whatever, and still get Telekinesis a certain number of times per day (or maybe at will) Actually, here, I'll make it for you: (hope you like it ^_^) The Latent Telekinesist Requirements: Skills: Knowledge Arcana: 5 ranks, Concentration: 5 ranks, 11 ranks in at least one other skill Feats: Spell Hand (Complete Arcane) Stats: Must have at least one mental stat (Int, Wis, Char) above 14 HD: 1d4 Skill Points: 2+int per level Saves: Fort: Poor, Reflex: Poor, Will: Good BAB Poor 1st PRC Level: Telekinesis 2/day 2nd PRC Level: Telekinesis 3/day 3rd PRC Level: Telekinesis 4/day 4th PRC Level: Telekinesis 5/day 5th PRC Level: Telekinesis @ Will Telekinesis You gain Telekinesis (as the spell) as a spell-like ability a number of times per day as listed. Your caster level for this ability is equal to your hit die. This way, the PRC can be entered only at 9th (same time a Wizard would get Telekinesis), and until 5th, you don't get it any more times than would a specialist transmuter, and by that time (13th level) the Ring of Telekinesis becomes close to reasonable (cost-wise) anyway. I assume that he/she wants this ability to go into the Master of the Unseen Hand PRC, which is loads of fun to play. Anyways, I hope this helps (I love making PRC's anyway, so at the very least, it was fun for me ^_^). NOTE: There are PLENTY of ways that your player can become a Gish and get telekinesis, good HD, BAB, ETC, but most of them are a bit slower than this method (to my knowledge), getting the spell sometime around 11th/12th. Good luck, Mid :)
Runningyellowstream 10-08-07, 03:16 PM	Thanks midvalley your reasoning seems sound on this he's still hurting for hitpoints and BAB more than a fighter but this seems like a fair compromise he looked over it with me and this seems like the way to go thank you.
zhaunil 10-08-07, 05:39 PM	Well to take that idea a little further here's something a little more fleshed out for everyone who likes this idea - The Latent Telekinesist Requirements: Skills: Concentration: 5 ranks Feats: Iron Will Special: Must be able to cast the spell Mage Hand, Manifest the ability PsiHand or have either ability as a Spell-Like ability. HD: 1d4 Class Skills: Concentration,Craft, Intimidate, Knowledge (Arcana), Profession, Spellcraft Skill Points: 2+int per level Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1 +1 +0 +0 +2 Spell-Like Ability 2 +2 +0 +0 +3 Improved Capacity 3 +3 +1 +1 +3 Extra Uses 4 +4 +1 +1 +4 Spell-Like Ability 5 +5 +1 +1 +4 Improved Capacity, Extra Uses Spell-Like Ability: At Level 1 the Laten telekineticist gains the ability to use Mage Hand or PsiHand (depending on which was used to qualify for this prestige class) 3/day. If the character can already use these abilities they may use whichever rate is better. At level 4 the character gains the ability to use Telekinesis (As spell for Mage Hand users or as Power for PsiHand Users) 2/day. Improved Capacity: The Weight limit for the Latent Telekineticist's Mage Hand/PsiHand Spell-like ability is increasted by 5lb + 1lb/level (max +15lbs). At Level 5 this also applies to their Telekinesis Spell-Like Ability. [B]Extra Uses:[B] At level 3 the character may use their Mage Hand/PsiHand ability 5/day. At level 5 the character may use their Mage Hand/PsiHand Ability at will and their Telekinesis ability 5/day Based it off of the Master of the Unseen Hand Prestige Class pretty much straight up so it'd be a good lead in and follows the same advancement pattern.
Midvalley 10-08-07, 09:04 PM	Thanks midvalley your reasoning seems sound on this he's still hurting for hitpoints and BAB more than a fighter but this seems like a fair compromise he looked over it with me and this seems like the way to go thank you. Glad to help. The nice thing is that he's not hurting for HP untill he takes the class. Heck, he could go straight Barbarian or Warblade and get D12's untill he gets to this class (at L9) and not be behind the average fighter at all (with a considerably greater degree of power), then either hop back to Barb/Warblade or move on to the Master of the Unseen Hand PRC. Good luck with the character/campaign and have fun! Mid :)
calronmoonflower 10-09-07, 02:10 AM	Far hand as a psilike ability would probably make it easier to be balancing but im not familiar with psionics, I've actually never been in a group that used psionics though i personally have the ExPH, and nobody in my current group is familiar with psionics so it would be the shortsighted leading the blind. Psionics are in he SRD. Just remember that a psi-like ability to automatically augmented to the manifester level of the ability.
ArochanoX 10-09-07, 04:25 AM	Telekinesis-race: Medium humanoid (planetouched, goblinoid) Str -2, Dex -4 Speed 20ft Darkvision 30 ft Skill bonuses: +2 move silently and hide SLA: telekinesis at will (caster level = ½ HD, save wisdom based) Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin Bonus Languages: Orc, Dwarven, Ignan and Auran Telekinesis race is a weird a goblin (blue to be exact) with strong heritage to elemental plane of air. He has some powers to redirect movement in the air, but is otherwise clumsy as the air-movement ability (=telekinesis) is useful in most situations.
war_thog 10-09-07, 07:57 AM	Blue goblins already exist. That isnt balanced. Minuses in those stats and slow speed do not offset the darkvision, bonus to hide/move silenetly and the telekensis effect. Its a very viable race for druids/clerics. The penalties are barely a worry for these guys. Sorcs dont need to have telekenisis at will. But it still works for them. Rogues, low dex hurts, but you can be an intelligent rogue with low dex very effectively, so the telekensis still owns. Rangers, dont need dex for your 2 wep skills. Works for them. Barbs could have fun with this too :) Just not in combat rage ness. Paladins would hug it. Fighters would too. Unless they were archers.
ArochanoX 10-09-07, 08:13 AM	Blue goblins already exist. Sure I know that. This telekinesis race is a blue with strong air heritage. Minuses in those stats and slow speed do not offset the darkvision, bonus to hide/move silenetly and the telekensis effect. Hide and move silently bonuses are a custom with goblinoids. Even a hobgoblin has bonus to move silently. All goblinoids also have darkvision. Nothing wrong with that. Telekinesis is only at ½ caster level which makes it really unpowerful. Note also that dex penalty hurts AC (and hide and move silently checks) and strenght makes them less powerful in close combat. Their only weapon is the telekinesis (which is less powerful than eldrich blast) and grows by leveling. Its a very viable race for druids/clerics. The penalties are barely a worry for these guys. Druids - no, but clerics need dexterity for AC and strenght to carry items. Sorcs dont need to have telekenisis at will. But it still works for them. Sorcerers need dexterity to hit with ranged touch attacks and AC. Rogues, low dex hurts, but you can be an intelligent rogue with low dex very effectively, so the telekensis still owns. A rogue that can't use sneak attack (atleast effectively is bad). Rangers, dont need dex for your 2 wep skills. Works for them. Rangers are combatants, they need both dex and str for offence and dex for defence. Barbs could have fun with this too In rage they're weaker than other races with rage. You can't use SLA's in rage. Paladins would hug it. Fighters would too. Unless they were archers. And unless they needed AC or ability to hold weapons. Not also that wisdom is often a weak stat.
war_thog 10-09-07, 08:56 AM	You do realise you can have a good str even with a -2. Never played a halflight fighter before? Heavy armour = dont need much dex. However the existence of the Master of the unseen hand makes this race uber cool. Be a massive awesome rogue, then prestige as that for freeby awesome.
ArochanoX 10-09-07, 11:52 PM	You do realise you can have a good str even with a -2. Yes. But it "costs" more. Never played a halflight fighter before? Do I even need to answer that? Heavy armour = dont need much dex. Dexterity penalty still applies and even a full plate allows some dex bonus. In heavy armor your speed is reduced to 15ft per round. That's too slow in most cases. However the existence of the Master of the unseen hand makes this race uber cool. Of course it makes this race über cool! Why would anyone take a race this weak as this without taking the master of the unseen hand?
war_thog 10-10-07, 01:38 AM	So youve built a race aimed at a prestige class. Yay. I know the guy asked for it. I still dont believe its balanced. Some things are too powerful for lvl 1 characters to get. A lvl 5 spell at will is on this list. Making massive negatives to get a massive bonus is not how you balance characters.
ArochanoX 10-10-07, 04:36 AM	Making massive negatives to get a massive bonus is not how you balance characters. You're absolutely right. For example more than +2 ability modifier isn't balanced, even if countered with a penalty of equal size to another attribute. A lvl 5 spell at will is on this list. You must note that this lvl 5 spell in question isn't very effective in combat, and it has mostly utilitarian and cinematic value. You must also note, that the spell does only allow manipulation of 25 lb / 2 levels (or 12,5 lb / lvl) which is very limited. I would be more afraid if a lvl 1 character walked around wielding the power of the cone of cold. But telekinesis... It's less powerful than eldrich blast. And even the if the spell is so powerful that it warrants LA automatically, it can be offset with a penalty to hinder the race's overall effectiveness. Poor AC hurts everything.
Millenia 10-10-07, 04:57 AM	Far hand as a psilike ability would probably make it easier to be balancing but im not familiar with psionics, I've actually never been in a group that used psionics though i personally have the ExPH, and nobody in my current group is familiar with psionics so it would be the shortsighted leading the blind. Just allowing one psilike ability won't be too much of a headache for your players, I'm sure. I'll try to make this as simple as I can. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/farHand.htm There is the link to the power. Read it. If you can read spells, you can read powers. There is only one difference: augmentation. Think of it as a built-in metamagic-esque ability... only with points instead of spell slots. However, the augmentation is limited by the manifester level of the character - which is typically equal to his character level, in this case. Far Hand costs 1 point, which is the equivalent of a first level spell. Simple enough at first level, right? Now, when the character reaches second, he can spend two "power points" to manifest Far Hand. This means that he can lift an object weighing up to seven pounds using the power. When the character reaches third, he can spend three "power points" to manifest Far Hand. So he has a choice: he can lift an object weighing up to nine pounds, but is limited to a range of 30 ft, or he can lift an object weighing up to five pounds with a range of 35 ft. At fourth level, he can lift an object weighing up to 11 lbs with a range of 35 ft, or he can lift an object weighing up to 7 lbs with a range of 40. At fifth level, he can lift an object weighing up to 13 lbs with a range of 35 ft, he can lift an object weighing up to 9 lbs with a range of 40 ft, or he can lift an object weighing 5 lbs with a range of 45 ft. And so on. As I'm about pass out typing this, I apologize for any confusion you may have.
war_thog 10-10-07, 07:12 AM	Telekinesis is very powerful. Ranged bullrush/trips are always handy. Violent thrust can deal lots of damage. Sustained force is indeed a utility and a handy one. Its a handy spell to have as its situationally useful. Its even handier to have it at will. Suddenly our lvl 1 sorc can violent thrust a greatsword every round and deal more damage than any of his spells. Or level 1 cleric can do that and focus on heal. Or fighter can thrust his greatsword to get some range. Youre damage isnt bad, getting just your flat average 7. But then we can do more greatswords later! It's not as weak as you're downplaying it to be.