A Question of Weight and Shape [Archive] - Wizards Community

A Question of Weight and Shape [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zousha_Omenohu
02-25-08, 09:39 PM Something that I've been pondering lately is the potential for different body shapes in adventurers in general. From what we're shown in illustrations from the rulebooks and other such things, all adventurers seem to be chiseled from the same stone. All humans have a well toned, muscular phyisique. I personally believe that it makes no sense that the entire human population consists only of Adonises and Amazons. And then there's elves, with slim lithe bodies that it's impossible to get in real life without an eating disorder or a fast metabolism. Then there's the dwarves. Squat and buff, nuff' said. And then the half orcs, each one ripped like Ahnold.

I admire the defying of stereotypes (yes, even that drow fellow), but it seems that there is a startling lack of imagination in the size and shape of adventurers.

I know that the Player's Handbook has a chart for determining the height and weight of your characters but honestly, how many people actually use that? Is it possible to have a skinny dwarf? Or a fat elf? Or a tall halfling? A short half-orc maybe? What do you think?
Mad_Jack
02-25-08, 11:48 PM Well, the thing about book illustrations is that they're supposed to represent archetypal adventurers. Although it's probably likely that even your party's wizard will be in decent shape from all that hiking/running/fighting/etc., not all of the characters are going to resemble the generic cookiecutter illustrations. I once ran a handsome-looking half-orc... his mother was an elf, rather than a human. He was tall, and well-built, but he didn't look like a body-builder.

Picture this - You're walking down the road when you hear loud, raucous singing coming over the next rise in the road. As you get closer, a figure comes into view, what appears to be a very thin dwarf in a chain shirt and a hooded cloak, carrying a very large bastard sword slung across his back. Although he lacks the typical width of a dwarf and carries himself with a great deal of grace, he's obviously bulging with muscles. He's singing a song you can only recognize from the tune, because he's singing each verse, sometimes each line, in a different language. He sort of looks a bit like Lemmy, the lead singer of the band Motorhead, with big muttonchop sideburns and a deep raspy voice. As he draws near, you're shocked to realize that this is *not* a thin dwarf...but the most *enormous* monster of a heavyweight-boxer-looking halfling that you've never even imagined.

Ripper, my psychotic CN halfling thief/fighter, has been around since 1st Edition... His stats are...
Str 16 Dex 18 Con 15 Int 14 Wis 12 Cha 13
When I played him in 1st Ed., he had gauntlets of ogre power, elven cloak and boots, a ring of jumping, and a pair of +3 daggers. He was death in the dark. :D He's a bouncing ball of bad intentions, with a penchant for jumping up on tables prior to launching himself onto people's backs to cut their throats, the closest thing you could get to a berserker without taking barbarian levels, a rabid badger in a steroid rage - one party he was with battled an ogre and as soon as the ogre was down to half HP, Ripper dropped his weapons and began viciously beating hell out of it's kneecaps with his fists. Definitely not your typical halfling, lol.
Zousha_Omenohu
02-26-08, 08:11 AM Now that's what I'm talkin' about!;)
foxtail
02-26-08, 09:41 AM All humans have a well toned, muscular phyisique. I personally believe that it makes no sense that the entire human population consists only of Adonises and Amazons.

I think the act of adventuring itself is probably some of the most rigorous physical exercise one can imagine. You'd have to be in decent shape to even get started in that field, and you certainly wouldn't get any flabbier as the dungeons went by.
Zousha_Omenohu
02-26-08, 12:11 PM True but that's not to say that adventurers are body-builders. Building up muscles like that takes a lot of time and energy, and if they're just getting stronger by swinging their weapons and running around dungeons and stuff, they wouldn't be ripped (Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know that much about exercise and such).
M-bark
02-26-08, 12:28 PM This reminds me of a gnome character I once created. Didn't enter play all that much in the end, but he was a lovable character. In the sense that he was the Rambo of all gnomes. Barbarian X/Bard 1. Imagine a gnome screaming a tune that's reminiscent of the death march whilst bashing in orc heads with his bare hands. Also, he was 5'04. Comparable in size to the average gnome as the tallest living man is to the average human. He was often mistaken for a half-dwarf half-orc. He also absolutely hatedmischief, as well as dwarves. (His most often used battle cry was "FOR JUSTICE!", and he often came in conflict with any dwarf that would talk to him. Yes, a gnome who hates dwarves.)

And then there also of course was Lord Amifat (pronounce as Ah-mee-faht). His name was a pun, (and originally intended to be different, until a character called him fat), because he was an obese elf. He also happened to be one of the richest in the city he lived in, and because of that nobody would tell him that he looked awful in his new robes (which often were at least a size smaller than he needed).
Kursk
02-26-08, 01:16 PM I know that the Player's Handbook has a chart for determining the height and weight of your characters but honestly, how many people actually use that? Is it possible to have a skinny dwarf? Or a fat elf? Or a tall halfling? A short half-orc maybe? What do you think?

I've seen about every variation from role players, not nearly as many from roll players.
ragoftag
02-28-08, 09:23 AM Alas, Role vs Roll will be with us always. I short exp for uncompleted character sheets and crappy, not RPed back stories. Amazing how even my worst 'Roll-players' snap to when exp are involved! Adds to the encounter when the players are paying attention to trivial details like fashion.
pigknight
02-29-08, 08:14 PM I make my characters not muscular (even the 18 strength guys), but you'll never see a fat adventurer, because if you're fat your slow, if you're slow you take a -10 circumstance penalty to AC.
Wharin
03-02-08, 11:54 AM I think alot of it also has to do with simplicity's sake for down the road adventuring. Lemme 'splain: Each character, with all of his stats, is assumed to be in the best shape of his life. Whatever peaks he has physically, mentally, socially, he's got them now, or at the very least, is very very close to that peak, with some room for improvement down the road. This is represented by the fact that the only way to improve our characters (aside from magic rings and amulates and the like) is through leveling, and reading those books of stat boosting (which, again, are magical). Hitting the gym won't do a damn thing, nor will hitting the books or taking ginkobiloba (again, unless you are on the verge of gaining a level divisable by 4).

If players could raise their stats by simply "taking time off to work out", every character would have 18's in all their stats because, "why not?" (again, assuming that their starting ability scores were not their personal peaks, and that everyone has the same possible bests).

In real life, we non-adventuring, white- and blue- collar job-having peoples don't have to worry about being the best possible shape of our lives and can let our selves go. Which is why we can also buff our selves up relatively easily and without much effort, compartively (I know that to raise MY STR from an 11 to a 15, I don't have to kill 4 levels worth of monsters); but that doesn't mean that Aragrim Trueforger, my dwarven warrior should be allowed to raise his STR 4 points, just like that, because before he even hit level 1, he got into his best personal shape he could.

Things like excess body weight represent relatively easy ways for self improvement for characters. While it would be appropriate for NPC's to have such flaws (after all most of them have all 10's anyway), having PC's with said flaws (and the means to relatively easily improve themselves, thus granting them the ability to increase their stats "just because its more realistic") could border on abuse.

OR its just because artists like drawing washboard stomachs and big muscles.... whichever answer works best for you.

_____________________________________

Addendum: With the advent of Flaws (the reverse feats), and PHB II and its character recreation section, this does free up some space in the whole scheme of how a person could look. So maybe it IS just because artists want to draw six packs, and not kegs.
Shaggy_Shaggs
03-04-08, 04:58 AM I played a human rogue/wizard once that was a bit pudgy, slow, and fairly on the lazy side. His response to combat was generally to blow up one big save-or-suck spell and then go in the other room or something and let the party deal with it. He didn't even really want to be an adventurer, but kind of had to after things got ugly at the school he'd been a resident at.

I also played a human fighter that was 5'3" and 283 lb (with three big strapping brothers, no less) who had a massive inferiority complex. He fought with his hands rather than a big weapon just to prove he could get by without one, would never let pass any real or imagined physical challenge, always offered to take all the watches, and refused treatment for illness and other status problems because he thought it would make him seem weak or fragile to admit he needed help when ailing.
Phelot_Plaguecrafter
03-04-08, 07:33 PM One of those silly little things I use for this purpose is Wizards' ruling on the difference between Medium and Small.
Wizards tells us that Small and Medium are both equally balanced. Large does require some kind of LA or HD, but Small and Medium are equal.
So, one of the things I pull once and again is play a Human or Elf who's particularly short and malnourished. Essentially, a deformed Human. A 'Little Person', persay. Or on the opposing end, a Goblin that suffers from elephantitis or the 'Andre the Giant' condition. Medium sized Goblins and Kobolds, small sized Dwarves and Half-Eves.

Good stuff.
Zousha_Omenohu
03-04-08, 09:59 PM I think there was an overweight character described in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. Mirt, wasn't it?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zousha_Omenohu 02-25-08, 09:39 PM	Something that I've been pondering lately is the potential for different body shapes in adventurers in general. From what we're shown in illustrations from the rulebooks and other such things, all adventurers seem to be chiseled from the same stone. All humans have a well toned, muscular phyisique. I personally believe that it makes no sense that the entire human population consists only of Adonises and Amazons. And then there's elves, with slim lithe bodies that it's impossible to get in real life without an eating disorder or a fast metabolism. Then there's the dwarves. Squat and buff, nuff' said. And then the half orcs, each one ripped like Ahnold. I admire the defying of stereotypes (yes, even that drow fellow), but it seems that there is a startling lack of imagination in the size and shape of adventurers. I know that the Player's Handbook has a chart for determining the height and weight of your characters but honestly, how many people actually use that? Is it possible to have a skinny dwarf? Or a fat elf? Or a tall halfling? A short half-orc maybe? What do you think?
Mad_Jack 02-25-08, 11:48 PM	Well, the thing about book illustrations is that they're supposed to represent archetypal adventurers. Although it's probably likely that even your party's wizard will be in decent shape from all that hiking/running/fighting/etc., not all of the characters are going to resemble the generic cookiecutter illustrations. I once ran a handsome-looking half-orc... his mother was an elf, rather than a human. He was tall, and well-built, but he didn't look like a body-builder. Picture this - You're walking down the road when you hear loud, raucous singing coming over the next rise in the road. As you get closer, a figure comes into view, what appears to be a very thin dwarf in a chain shirt and a hooded cloak, carrying a very large bastard sword slung across his back. Although he lacks the typical width of a dwarf and carries himself with a great deal of grace, he's obviously bulging with muscles. He's singing a song you can only recognize from the tune, because he's singing each verse, sometimes each line, in a different language. He sort of looks a bit like Lemmy, the lead singer of the band Motorhead, with big muttonchop sideburns and a deep raspy voice. As he draws near, you're shocked to realize that this is not a thin dwarf...but the most enormous monster of a heavyweight-boxer-looking halfling that you've never even imagined. Ripper, my psychotic CN halfling thief/fighter, has been around since 1st Edition... His stats are... Str 16 Dex 18 Con 15 Int 14 Wis 12 Cha 13 When I played him in 1st Ed., he had gauntlets of ogre power, elven cloak and boots, a ring of jumping, and a pair of +3 daggers. He was death in the dark. :D He's a bouncing ball of bad intentions, with a penchant for jumping up on tables prior to launching himself onto people's backs to cut their throats, the closest thing you could get to a berserker without taking barbarian levels, a rabid badger in a steroid rage - one party he was with battled an ogre and as soon as the ogre was down to half HP, Ripper dropped his weapons and began viciously beating hell out of it's kneecaps with his fists. Definitely not your typical halfling, lol.
Zousha_Omenohu 02-26-08, 08:11 AM	Now that's what I'm talkin' about!;)
foxtail 02-26-08, 09:41 AM	All humans have a well toned, muscular phyisique. I personally believe that it makes no sense that the entire human population consists only of Adonises and Amazons. I think the act of adventuring itself is probably some of the most rigorous physical exercise one can imagine. You'd have to be in decent shape to even get started in that field, and you certainly wouldn't get any flabbier as the dungeons went by.
Zousha_Omenohu 02-26-08, 12:11 PM	True but that's not to say that adventurers are body-builders. Building up muscles like that takes a lot of time and energy, and if they're just getting stronger by swinging their weapons and running around dungeons and stuff, they wouldn't be ripped (Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know that much about exercise and such).
M-bark 02-26-08, 12:28 PM	This reminds me of a gnome character I once created. Didn't enter play all that much in the end, but he was a lovable character. In the sense that he was the Rambo of all gnomes. Barbarian X/Bard 1. Imagine a gnome screaming a tune that's reminiscent of the death march whilst bashing in orc heads with his bare hands. Also, he was 5'04. Comparable in size to the average gnome as the tallest living man is to the average human. He was often mistaken for a half-dwarf half-orc. He also absolutely hatedmischief, as well as dwarves. (His most often used battle cry was "FOR JUSTICE!", and he often came in conflict with any dwarf that would talk to him. Yes, a gnome who hates dwarves.) And then there also of course was Lord Amifat (pronounce as Ah-mee-faht). His name was a pun, (and originally intended to be different, until a character called him fat), because he was an obese elf. He also happened to be one of the richest in the city he lived in, and because of that nobody would tell him that he looked awful in his new robes (which often were at least a size smaller than he needed).
Kursk 02-26-08, 01:16 PM	I know that the Player's Handbook has a chart for determining the height and weight of your characters but honestly, how many people actually use that? Is it possible to have a skinny dwarf? Or a fat elf? Or a tall halfling? A short half-orc maybe? What do you think? I've seen about every variation from role players, not nearly as many from roll players.
ragoftag 02-28-08, 09:23 AM	Alas, Role vs Roll will be with us always. I short exp for uncompleted character sheets and crappy, not RPed back stories. Amazing how even my worst 'Roll-players' snap to when exp are involved! Adds to the encounter when the players are paying attention to trivial details like fashion.
pigknight 02-29-08, 08:14 PM	I make my characters not muscular (even the 18 strength guys), but you'll never see a fat adventurer, because if you're fat your slow, if you're slow you take a -10 circumstance penalty to AC.
Wharin 03-02-08, 11:54 AM	I think alot of it also has to do with simplicity's sake for down the road adventuring. Lemme 'splain: Each character, with all of his stats, is assumed to be in the best shape of his life. Whatever peaks he has physically, mentally, socially, he's got them now, or at the very least, is very very close to that peak, with some room for improvement down the road. This is represented by the fact that the only way to improve our characters (aside from magic rings and amulates and the like) is through leveling, and reading those books of stat boosting (which, again, are magical). Hitting the gym won't do a damn thing, nor will hitting the books or taking ginkobiloba (again, unless you are on the verge of gaining a level divisable by 4). If players could raise their stats by simply "taking time off to work out", every character would have 18's in all their stats because, "why not?" (again, assuming that their starting ability scores were not their personal peaks, and that everyone has the same possible bests). In real life, we non-adventuring, white- and blue- collar job-having peoples don't have to worry about being the best possible shape of our lives and can let our selves go. Which is why we can also buff our selves up relatively easily and without much effort, compartively (I know that to raise MY STR from an 11 to a 15, I don't have to kill 4 levels worth of monsters); but that doesn't mean that Aragrim Trueforger, my dwarven warrior should be allowed to raise his STR 4 points, just like that, because before he even hit level 1, he got into his best personal shape he could. Things like excess body weight represent relatively easy ways for self improvement for characters. While it would be appropriate for NPC's to have such flaws (after all most of them have all 10's anyway), having PC's with said flaws (and the means to relatively easily improve themselves, thus granting them the ability to increase their stats "just because its more realistic") could border on abuse. OR its just because artists like drawing washboard stomachs and big muscles.... whichever answer works best for you. _____________________________________ Addendum: With the advent of Flaws (the reverse feats), and PHB II and its character recreation section, this does free up some space in the whole scheme of how a person could look. So maybe it IS just because artists want to draw six packs, and not kegs.
Shaggy_Shaggs 03-04-08, 04:58 AM	I played a human rogue/wizard once that was a bit pudgy, slow, and fairly on the lazy side. His response to combat was generally to blow up one big save-or-suck spell and then go in the other room or something and let the party deal with it. He didn't even really want to be an adventurer, but kind of had to after things got ugly at the school he'd been a resident at. I also played a human fighter that was 5'3" and 283 lb (with three big strapping brothers, no less) who had a massive inferiority complex. He fought with his hands rather than a big weapon just to prove he could get by without one, would never let pass any real or imagined physical challenge, always offered to take all the watches, and refused treatment for illness and other status problems because he thought it would make him seem weak or fragile to admit he needed help when ailing.
Phelot_Plaguecrafter 03-04-08, 07:33 PM	One of those silly little things I use for this purpose is Wizards' ruling on the difference between Medium and Small. Wizards tells us that Small and Medium are both equally balanced. Large does require some kind of LA or HD, but Small and Medium are equal. So, one of the things I pull once and again is play a Human or Elf who's particularly short and malnourished. Essentially, a deformed Human. A 'Little Person', persay. Or on the opposing end, a Goblin that suffers from elephantitis or the 'Andre the Giant' condition. Medium sized Goblins and Kobolds, small sized Dwarves and Half-Eves. Good stuff.
Zousha_Omenohu 03-04-08, 09:59 PM	I think there was an overweight character described in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. Mirt, wasn't it?