Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lokathor 10-26-07, 08:00 PM	Ok, so here's the story. I really don't like that human is so crazy powerful compared to everyone else. Humans are basically overpowered. If the test question for overpowered in an area is "Is this ability so good that you couldn't really imagine not taking it?" then humans are near the overpowered line. Not over, but near it. Also, dwarves are crazy powerful too. With that said, I also had the task sitting in front of me of deciding some PC races. So, here's some races written that are indeed strong enough to compete with humans (who are unchanged). I don't think any any of these races (except Hobgoblin) are above LA +0, but you can be your own judges. Hobgoblin is possibly above +0, but that's alright with me, since they're the "villain" group. Keep in mind that I've set the LA +0 bar to be "these races", so if they're all equally over the line, then that's perfect. I've got which aspects are physical and which are racial because reincarnation is the only way to bring back the dead. There's also stronger forms of reincarnate that avoid level loss and stuff too, but they still don't always give you back your own form. Reality Revision and Miracle along with the Savage Species rituals can change your form as normal, if you really want your old body back. Unless otherwise mentioned, the following two traits are true: Medium Size Speed 30ft Physical stat modifications are always physical traits of the race, as are Low-Light vision, Darkvision, and movement speed. Mental stat modifications are always a mental trait. There are no favored classes listed because multi-classing XP penalties are stupid in the first place. "Usual classes" means the kinds of classes that an NPC elf or an NPC goblin are most likely to have (say, 50%+). Also, I replaced the arcane classes with the Psionic classes, which is why none of them have wizard or sorcerer or bard or anything like that. The citybuilding race. +1 skill point per level, with +4 at first level. Humans are naturally multi-talented compared to other races. Bonus Feat at first level. Humans pick up on special techniques quickly in their early life. Humans speak Common. Usual Classes: Any Reincarnation All racial abilities of the Human are "mental" abilities. Humans are the keepers of most above ground cities in the world. Everyone else either just doesn't really build many city level settlements (just collections of huts and such) or they don't really care to even bother with things like carving up dead trees when there are perfectly good caves that they don't even have to make. They are among the shorter lived races, but make up for it with a high capacity for initial learning that allows each generation to become strong enough on its own quick enough to assume power and maintain (relatively) stable civilizations. Humans are also usually found mixed in with other races, trying to "make it big" wherever they have a chance. Humans usually have the fewest qualms about strange jobs and strange people as long as they're able to get a piece of the action. The tree dwelling hippies. +2 Dex, -2 Int. Elves are agile, but not very bright. Low-Light vision. +2 bonus to Swim, Climb, and Jump. Elves are always outside, and they've got 100 years of body training compared to the next guy. +1 to all Saves. The soul of an elf is blessed by the gods. +2 on Spot, Listen, and Initiative. Elves are naturally observant and quick to react. +2 on Survival and Knowledge(Nature). Elves are always outside, so they quickly learn of the outdoors. Elves speak Elven. Most elves also learn Sylvan or Common. Usual Classes: Ranger, Druid, Barbarian Reincarnation The +2 bonus on Athletics is a "physical" trait, all others are "mental". Elves are nomadic tribal creatures that live primarily in forests. They don't bother others much and they don't really do anything hostile to other people, so they tend to go relatively unnoticed. They eat leaves and live for a very long time (often over 600 years). Even though people don't ever pay attention to them, the elves don't care. Whenever people encroach on an elven forest, the elves just add more forest along the other side after a while. Elves live across such a long time scale that the other races never really get what's going on. To them, the elves mostly just live in the trees and play with rabbits and things like that. The drunken miners. +2 Con, -2 Cha. Dwarves are tough, but gruff and.. dwarven. Darkvision 60ft. Speed 20ft, but not slowed by wearing armor or when encumbered. Stability (Ex): Dwarves generally get +4 to the roll when trying to stay on their feet. Depth Sense (Ex): Dwarves can always tell how far beneath the surface they are. Stonecutting (Ex): Dwarves get +2 on all rolls related to stonework, and can find stone related traps as if they had Trapfinding. +2 on Craft regarding stone or metal objects, as well as Profession(Miner) checks. +2 against Poisons, particularly alcohol. +2 against spells and spell-like abilities. Dwarves speak Dwarven and Common. Most Dwarves also learn languages such as Terran and Undercommon. Usual Classes: Crusader, Cleric, Warblade Reincarnation Stonecutting, the craft and profession bonus, and the bonus against spells are Mental. The rest of the abilites are physical in nature. Dwarves live in hills and mountains and they dig away at the earth to find precious metals. It's often asked of a dwarf, "What's the point of life?" To which the dwarven reply is "to mine for fish". No one else gets it either. Dwarves live for about 300 years, but the dwarven civilizations keep records that stretch back almost to the beginning of time. Only the Aboleths have a history that goes back farther. As a result, life can be strange for dwarves. Once or twice in every dwarves life there's a major war with someone else that lasts for years and eventually goes fairly unresolved, and then a few decades later those same people come over to trade stuff as if nothing was ever the problem. Dwarves keep track off all these slights and favors, in the hopes of trying to make some more sense of the universe, but it never really helps. The master animal keepers. +2 Con, -2 Str. Gnomes are hardy, but weak. Low-Light vision. Small Size. Base Speed 20ft. Agnimal Speech (Ex): Gnomes can speak with animals and magical beasts of any intelligence score as though they shared a common language, similar to a continual Speak with Animals spell. +2 on Spot and Listen. Gnomes have very keen ears and eyes. +4 on Handle Agnimal checks. Being able to speak with the creatures improves their skills, but does not always ensure success. +4 Dodge bonus against creatures 2 or more sizes larger than the Gnome. Gnomes speak Gnome and Common. They usually learn the 'savage' languages from wherever they grow up. Usual Classes: Druid, Rogue, Scout Reincarnation The bonus on Spot and Listen bonus are "physical", all other aspects are "mental" in nature. Gnomes are small and sometimes live in forests, but they aren't much like elves. They live for about 200 years. Most of the time though, gnomes don't quite make it on their own compared to the other races. However, their ability to form pacts and treaties with local wildlife ensures their survival. Gnome societies can be found just about anywhere, but usually among a pack, flock, or herd of some kind. Gnomes that live in forests will ride wolves, while gnomes in a grassland will live among lions or hyenas. Gnomes don't actually hunt animals, they mostly get by with farming and basic gathering. It's not that they've all got a special reverence for animals, it just makes it easier if they're not a strain on the predator's food source. Some gnomes move into the cities of others, where their strange talents and ways can often make them very successful, but most don't think it's worth the effort trying to live among the "tall-ones". The scavengers of the world. +2 Dex, -2 Str. Goblins are fast, but weak. Darkvision 60ft. Small Size. Naturally Psionic: Goblins gain 2 power points. +2 on Use Magic Device. Goblins are inherently skilled at making things 'just work'. +2 on Move Silently. Goblin bodies are naturally light on their feet. +4 on Craft checks to repair an object. When making such a check, treat the goblin's ranks in the appropriate craft equal to half his level +1, or his actual ranks, whichever is more. They can't always build it, but they can always fix it. Goblins speak Goblin and Common. They usually learn Draconic and Dwarf to better understand old recovered ruins. Usual Classes: Rogue, Psychic Rogue, Ninja Reincarnation The bonus on Move Silently is a "physical" trait, with all others being "mental". Goblins go everywhere that used to be controlled by someone else, and they take all the broken things, and make whatever they can out of it. They have an almost obsessive compulsion to explore things. No one knows how long a goblin lifespan can last, because no goblin has ever settled down for a quiet and peaceful life. After they're born, it takes them about 15 years to generally be "old enough" to get along by themselves. As with any race there are variances. Once a goblin is an adult about half of them strike out from the tribe and try to explore new things, while the other half take the just as dangerous path of living with their tribe as it moves into different old and abandoned palaces. The other races usually frown on goblins just a bit, because the goblins just take whatever is abandoned without asking about who it belonged to or who is should be returned to. Goblin "goods" are always recovered goods from someone else, and they usually eat things like mushrooms and large cave bugs, so they don't grow much food of their own. The belligerent bullies. +2 Str, -2 Cha. Darkvision 60ft. Hobgoblins are specially trained and gain +4 on attacks made at the end of a charge, instead of the normal +2. Hobgoblins gain Expeditious Dodge as a bonus feat. +4 on Move Silently. Hobgobins speak Hobbish and Common. They also tend to know languages based on the lands they conquer. Usual Classes: Warblade, Barbarian, Psychic Warrior Reincarnation The bonus on charges and bonus feat are both "mental" abilities. The move silently bonus is a "physical" one. Hobgoblins are raiders. The Hobbish word for "settlement" is the same as their word for "target". They have camps in the wilderness there they raise young and teach them the hobgoblin ways, and when the hobgoblins are old enough they split off into groups of 10 to 20 each. The groups proceed to amass the stuff of others and gain enough strength so that the group can form the basis of a new camp, and the cycle completes itself (hobgoblins have about an 80 year lifespan, similar to humans). Hobgobins are primarily a meritocracy, and they pass down most of their traditions orally, which leads to a scattered and segmented history that tends to lose pieces apart if a warband is ever eliminated. Mostly, hobgoblins don't get along in large groups, which is why they always split up. They are still some of the best warriors to be found, and when they can be organized into a "proper military" by others they're a particularly deadly force to face. The wandering nomads. +2 Strength. Low-Light vision. +4 on Survival checks. +4 on saves to resist the effects of weather. Frequent Traveler (Ex): Orcs always have Speak Language as a class skill, regardless of class. Orcs speak Orc and Common. Orcs tend to learn additional languages based on where they travel. Usual Classes: Barbarian, Ranger, Scout Reincarnation The Survival bonus and Frequent Traveler ability are "mental", while the bonus on saves is a "physical" trait. Orcs have a rough lot in life. Many centuries ago they were in charge of most everything, until the humans came along with all their magical powers and displaced the Orcs as the major surface power. Orcs don't quite match up the human standards of beauty, and so they were mostly kicked out of all the good places that humans wanted. They move about and make the most of the places that are left to them. They're absurdly hardy and they're able to get along in almost any environment, meaning that all the far outposts of civilization tend to be Orcish ones. Because they're spread to all sorts of remote regions, Orcs don't really share a common culture with each other. However, most Orcs have at least a level or two in Barbarian, so Orcs from different regions with the same barbarian totem will share similarities that way. The xenophobic dragonkin. +2 Dex, -4 Str, -2 Con. Kobolds are swift, but weak and fragile. Darkvision 60ft. Small Size. +1 Natural Armor Bonus. Dragonblooded subtype. A kobold's draconic nature causes them to age differently from normal humanoids. Use the dragon age categories, but divide all values on the chart by 5. Kobolds do not gain or lose stats as they age, and do not die of old age. However, old enough kobolds are often selected by Marduk to be reincarnated as a true dragon once they are killed. Slight Build (Ex): Whenever a kobold is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as Hide), the kobold is treated as one size smaller if doing so is advantageous to the character. A kobold is also considered to be one size smaller when "squeezing" through a restrictive space. A kobold can use weapons designed for a creature one size smaller without penalty. However, the space and reach of a kobold remain those of a creature of their actual size. +2 bonus on Craft(Traps), Search, and Profession(Miner). Kobolds treat all picks as one category 'simpler' in terms of proficiency. Kobolds speak Draconic and Common. They often learn an elemental language based on the type of dragon that they follow. Usual Classes: Dragon Shaman, Dragonfire Adept, Wilder Reincarnation The dragonblooded subtype, skill bonuses, and pick expertise are all "mental" abilities. The natural armor, Slight Build, and ageless body effect are "physical" ones. Kobolds are the humanoid incarnation of dragons. The smallest of all humanoids, natural kobolds are created personally by Marduk and he is the final judge of their life once they die. Those who he thinks will excel are reincarnated as a dragon of some sort. The actions required are not specific, because different actions will lead to different kinds of dragons. Kobolds that live in mountains mostly just make use of tunnels and caves, keeping large and complex lairs like the larger true dragons. Kobolds in other places tend to construct either underground networks in deserts and plains, or high treetop networks in forested areas. Kobolds usually don't much care for non-kobolds, but they're just as greedy as every other race and they can always be hired for the right price. Most ancient and lasting fortresses are all of Kobold design, and they're also expert night-stalkers and sneaks because of their very small size. The most dangerous thing about a Kobold is often the specialized knowledge that a tribe can hold, because their elders can potentially live indefinitely (and with expert memories), and they can also call upon the expertise of the dragons when they need to.
evangelion1010 10-27-07, 09:29 AM	The elves appear somewhat more powerful than the other races. Kobolds are quite weak, especially with slight build. A -4 strength and small size wasn't enough, you needed to give them tiny size... I also don't think kobolds are that slight. If you look at halflings or gnomes in the PHB, you find a 35-50 pound creature that stands 2-3 feet tall. It's hard to picture kobolds being much smaller than that... I do note that you mention they get benefits of being tiny without actually being. Does this include AC? Do they not take a penalty to grapple checks? Other than that most seem to be about the same as the PHB.
Lokathor 10-27-07, 09:39 AM	Sleight Build actually was a WotC written ability that they had in an Races of the Dragon web enhancement that I might not have copied over word for word. The general idea is that they get a few of the benefits of being tiny sometimes, but never any of the penalties. So, yes, they're actually small, with 5ft reach, and with only -4 grapple. They do get +8 hide instead of +4, and they can fight in areas as small as 2.5ft wide without any penalty at all, unlike normal small creatures. The main power of the kobold is the Dragonblooded subtype, which, once you take a look at some of the Races of the Dragon feats, becomes a very nice thing to have.
Lionhearted 10-27-07, 02:19 PM	Wait.. what? is orcs smarter than elves?.. since when?
Jaxgaret 10-27-07, 02:45 PM	Humans are balanced. It's the monstrous races that are underpowered, but that's a built-in quality that WotC decided they would have.
Lokathor 10-27-07, 06:53 PM	Wait.. what? is orcs smarter than elves?.. since when? Since I decided that the default elf is the "wood elf" subtype. Also, I don't like Orcs being stupid. Everyone already don't really like them. If they were stupid no top of that, they'd have been wiped out long ago. They don't just sprout up out of the ground like Dwarves do... Jaxgaret: Intentional or not, I don't like it. You're a human, you can see a planet full of humans. We don't even treat each other properly. The other species need some real mechanical benefits to keep in the game, or they'd all be killed. That's what keeps monsters going. Also, the ability to grow old doesn't count as a competitive technique. Actually, if the human army has to wait 15 years to get back to fighting and the elven one has to wait 100 years, it's a bad thing.
Daybreaker 10-27-07, 07:16 PM	As a hippy, I found it hilarious that the Elves (the hippies) are the dumbest race. I now want to get myself a t-shirt (tie-dyed naturally) that says "Dumber than a Bugbear." :P I think it sounds good and well-considered. I did have one question, regarding Gnomes. You say that they're farmers, but that they also travel in flocks and packs and such. If they travel with their animals, aren't they likely to be migratory? And how does that work out with the farming? Perhaps they maintain multiple farming projects along their migratory routes, gathering crops and planting new seeds as they go?
Lokathor 10-27-07, 08:47 PM	Oh I've not nothing against hippies really, but it has been shown many times that when you give up too completely on a solid educational system the mind suffers. I had two players (Ranger and Barbarian) who just stuck slightly higher than normal stats into Intelligence and they came out with 12 on the ranger and 10 on the barbarian. As for Gnomes it depends on what kind of creature the specific Gnomes are with. A wolf tribe will be semi-migratory as their wolves follow other prey, but something like a bear tribe will mostly stick to one area and defend it. Also, yes, that's an excellent idea too. Planting things and then just waiting a year for it to grow on its own. There were some feats to go with the races, but I've only made a few. They're intended to round out the flavor. Only in the case of the Gnome is it meant to be a significant advantage over other races. I wanted to give the Gnome an animal companion automatically, but races aren't really supposed to say "get animal companion, and don't get a 1st level feat". Elven Forest Walker [Racial] * Requires: Raised among Elves, Athletics 4 ranks. * Benefit: You can take 10 on all climb checks, and you retain your dexterity bonus to AC when climbing. Gnomish Agnimal Handler [Racial] * Requires: soul of a Gnome, Handle Animal 9 ranks. * Benefit: You gain an Animal Companion (as per the former Druid Class ability). If you have the ability to cast spells or powers, you can share those effects with your animal companion. This feat replaces Leadership for you if you take it. (It says former because I'm using the shapeshifting druid variant in PHB2, which loses animal companion as part of the variant. I also wrote it out of ranger and made ranger more scoutlike, so this would be the only way to get animal companion. Which is good, because Animal Companion really is like having a bad ass fighter cohort.) Goblin Craftmaster [Racial] * Requires: soul of a Goblin * Benefit: Use Magic Device is always a class skill for you, no matter what class you advance in. Additionally, you can always recognize the difference between a magical item and a nonmagical one. You gain no special abilities to identify the exact properties of an item, you can simply tell that something about it is magical. Koboldish Trap Expert [Racial] * Requires: Raised among Kobolds, Search 4 ranks, Disable Device 4 ranks. * Benefit: You gain the Trapfinding special ability. If you already have that ability or if you later gain that ability then you instead gain a +2 bonus on all Search and Disable Device checks involving traps.
Sinfire Titan 10-29-07, 08:25 PM	Since I decided that the default elf is the "wood elf" subtype. Also, I don't like Orcs being stupid. Everyone already don't really like them. If they were stupid no top of that, they'd have been wiped out long ago. They don't just sprout up out of the ground like Dwarves do... Jaxgaret: Intentional or not, I don't like it. You're a human, you can see a planet full of humans. We don't even treat each other properly. The other species need some real mechanical benefits to keep in the game, or they'd all be killed. That's what keeps monsters going. Also, the ability to grow old doesn't count as a competitive technique. Actually, if the human army has to wait 15 years to get back to fighting and the elven one has to wait 100 years, it's a bad thing. Heh, so it is the Oblivion version of Orcs, eh?
jaelis 10-29-07, 09:01 PM	As written, you're giving kobolds a total +2 size modifier to attacks and AC. I think that makes them pretty decent, but your post #3 suggests that you might not have intended that.
Lokathor 10-30-07, 01:05 AM	I've never played Oblivion, but I've heard good things. I'm not so hot on PC games, what with not really having a gaming class computer. jaelis: Attacks and AC are not opposed checks, so you do not get the size modifier for being tiny. Same as Goliaths with Powerful Build don't count as large for attacks and AC.
jaelis 10-30-07, 05:05 AM	jaelis: Attacks and AC are not opposed checks, so you do not get the size modifier for being tiny. Same as Goliaths with Powerful Build don't count as large for attacks and AC. I believe the grammatically correct way to read your text is: "Whenever a kobold is subject to a [size modifier] or [special size modifier for an opposed check] (such as Hide)..." For what you want, I'd put it as "Whenever a kobold is subject to a size modifier for an opposed check (such as Hide)..."
Lokathor 10-30-07, 07:50 AM	No, the OR operation is greedy in this case. The sentence comes out as: "subject to a ([size_modifier] OR [special_size_modifier]) for an opposed check (such as Hide)..." Also, hide doesn't technically use side modifiers, it uses special size modifiers, which are for some reason different. I didn't write the rules on that one. Anyways, http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a has the official text of the ability, which reads: The physical stature of kobolds lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category smaller. Whenever a kobold is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as Hide), the kobold is treated as one size smaller if doing so is advantageous to the character. A kobold is also considered to be one size smaller when "squeezing" through a restrictive space. A kobold can use weapons designed for a creature one size smaller without penalty. However, the space and reach of a kobold remain those of a creature of their actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject's size category. Now, since we all understand that Goliaths don't get -1 to all attacks and -1 to AC, we'd best take note that goliaths have the exact same wording in powerful build ... Whenever a goliath is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the goliath is treated as one size category larger if doing so is advantageous to him. ... So, I think we can conclude that WotC doesn't intend for Kobolds to get the tiny size mods to attack and AC. I can also personally confirm for you that I did not intend for kobolds to get the tiny size mods to attacks and AC. What are your thoughts on the hobgoblin? Are they raider-ish enough? They're meant to replace the normal role of "default bad guy" that Orcs have in standard DnD. Also, do the feats seem cool enough and still balanced?
jaelis 10-30-07, 09:06 AM	Now, since we all understand that Goliaths don't get -1 to all attacks and -1 to AC, we'd best take note that goliaths have the exact same wording in powerful build You can't really draw any conclusions from that, since they only get bonuses, not penalties. But as for the WotC slight build wording, I would indeed read it to say they get size bonuses whenever applicable. But if there is other evidence to say otherwise, that would make it clear. At any rate, I would say the wording is ambiguous. You might as well make yours unambiguous, since you can :)
Lokathor 10-30-07, 10:01 AM	To definitely mean that they get the Tiny size mods for everything, the wording would best be written as: Whenever a kobold is subject to a size modifier, or a special size modifier for an opposed check (such as Hide), foo. And I'll have you know that I tried the "they get the tiny mod to AC and attack" thing, and they were relatively super powered. Maybe it was that they also got swarmfighting for free, maybe it was that they were all first level psychic warriors with hidden talent(energy ray). Who could say? After that I switched it back so that they could be dragonblooded, since a PC is playing a dragonblooded character.
AtsuiShoto 10-30-07, 10:32 AM	Lokathor, simply write a description of Slight Build that suits your intention. It has absolutely no need to match the WotC Slight Build; after all, your "elf" and "orc" don't match theirs at all. Just spell out the whole list of benefits, because the list is pretty short: "Slight Build (Ex): A Kobold is treated as Tiny to avoid penalties from fighting in confined spaces, and gains a +8 size bonus to Hide checks (as if Tiny) instead of +4 for being Small." If you want more benefits, add them. If not, then you're done; just copy/paste.
Lokathor 10-30-07, 12:09 PM	Well, the advantage of being general is that when a kobold changes sizes the text still makes sense. But ignore the Kobold. What do you think about the Dwarf or Hobgoblin?
AtsuiShoto 10-30-07, 12:47 PM	Well, the advantage of being general is that when a kobold changes sizes the text still makes sense. "Slight Build (Ex): A Kobold is treated as one size smaller to avoid penalties from fighting in confined spaces, and gains a +4 size bonus to Hide checks that stacks with any other size bonuses to Hide checks (normally +4 for being Small)." You made a good point. I think this fixes it.But ignore the Kobold. What do you think about the Dwarf or Hobgoblin?The Dwarf looks the same as the PHB version. The Hobgoblin looks quite nice. Dropping the Dex bonus and the +1 LA is a well-known "fix" to make it playable, and your (truly potent!) bonus on charges increases the power level to be more in line with Humans and Dwarves, although perhaps it's just a bit TOO much? I think a +3 would be more palatable, instead of +4.
Lokathor 10-30-07, 01:31 PM	Hmm, considering that many Hobgoblins are warblades on average, and they'd attack as a swarm with White Raven Defense and Leading The Charge. +1 more than normal might just be enough. I mean, they're a group of deadly charging cruse missiles even without that very final +1 to hit... I'd have to see some general play testing. Forge of Fury will be the shell for the next adventure. I'm using the same area but replacing all encounters with a new set of appropriate creatures that take advantage of all the new options to come out since 3.0 started. It'll have lots of Hobgoblins, so they'll get a good shakedown. Dwarves... actually, yeah, come to think of it they're on the high end of power already.
Dog_O_War 10-30-07, 02:01 PM	I see the changes you have made, in contrary to what you've written. I really don't like that human is so crazy powerful compared to everyone else. Humans are basically overpowered. If the test question for overpowered in an area is "Is this ability so good that you couldn't really imagine not taking it?" then humans are near the overpowered line. Not over, but near it. Also, dwarves are crazy powerful too. With that said, I also had the task sitting in front of me of deciding some PC races. So, here's some races written that are indeed strong enough to compete with humans (who are unchanged). (I've italicised words for effect) Why would you want to make every race overpowered then? This sounds like it would be more detrimental to your proposed situation than helpful. Maybe make the elf more powerful, as this is the only race (well, maybe the half-elf too) IMO that is infact gimped in the PHB (I'd make a more standard variant that didn't have the int penalty). Reading the changes you've made to the races I have to ask why? Why do gnomes and not the other small races get that dodge bonus versus every non-descript enemy 2 size catigories larger? What if the gnome were enlarged; would he lose this bonus against creatures he previously had it against, and if he does what sense does it make? What is the history behind Orcs? If it follows any semblence of "orcs were once elves" how do you account for their higher intelligence as compared to elves, while still maintaining that they have a primitive (most orcs have at least a level or two in barbarian) nature? Why are hobgoblins less charimatic than orcs? in the books this is reverse; if you are keeping to their orginal alignments, why then would brutal creatures such as orcs (who'd rather kill you than negotiate) have no charisma penalty where as hobgoblins are atleast willing to talk? If this charisma penalty is do to hobgoblin unattractiveness, then who are you to judge that your players would find an orc more attractive than a hobgoblin? Finally, I see none of these races have favored class: fighter. Why no fighter love? It is just as good a class as any of the others, and fighters are twice as likely to survive in more situations than the rogue, bard, wizard, or sorcerer at low levels. (this question is not of high importance; the classes available in a particular game often amounts to flavor)
Lokathor 10-30-07, 05:45 PM	Why would you want to make every race overpowered then? This sounds like it would be more detrimental to your proposed situation than helpful. No no, "Overpowered" is always a relative term. It has to be because "over" is a relative term. The Warrior is overpowered to the commoner, but we've many more classes to pick from so we don't care. If all the base races are equally powerful, then balance is restored. But, everything might fly off the handle if all races get 9th level spells at will, so we don't do that. Instead, since Humans are fairly solid exactly where I think a race should be, I balance around the human. Maybe make the elf more powerful, as this is the only race (well, maybe the half-elf too) IMO that is infact gimped in the PHB (I'd make a more standard variant that didn't have the int penalty). Wild Elves are in the MM (104), the elves here are based more off of them than they are off of the High Elf. I'm not a fan of the High Elf really. Why do gnomes and not the other small races get that dodge bonus versus every non-descript enemy 2 size catigories larger?Because the other two Small sized races aren't regularly fighting, interacting with, or just generally observing lions, tigers, and bears (among other things). Kobolds don't ever think much about non-scaled ones, and goblins aren't interested in the living things, they're too busy finding spare parts and learning about mechanics. Meanwhile for the Medium sized races, there simply aren't enough Huge sized foes for them to have the extreme familiarity with that kind of combat that gnomes do. What if the gnome were enlarged; would he lose this bonus against creatures he previously had it against, and if he does what sense does it make? Yes, he does. Bonuses based on size are always about relative size. If the gnome was still the same size, but every other creature and thing in the entire universe went up 2 sizes, he'd suddenly be able to much more expertly dodge people who were just moments ago the same size as him. What I find nonsensical is that default gnomes get +4 to dodge giants even if they're enlarged to be bigger than the giants they're dodging. What is the history behind Orcs? If it follows any semblence of "orcs were once elves" how do you account for their higher intelligence as compared to elves, while still maintaining that they have a primitive (most orcs have at least a level or two in barbarian) nature? Why would orcs and elves be related? First of all I don't consider barbarian to be any more primitive than most other classes. I also don't give them illiteracy, and they already get 4 skills a level which is the "averagely mentalist" group. Most NPC orcs would be 2nd or 3rd level, and say, 20% have 2 levels in barbarian, and another 40% have just one level in barbarian. The rest are probably rangers and druids by default. The class isn't primative, it just has an optimal balance between warrior ability and survival ability. When people will attack you without much cause at all, warrior ability is important. Orcs have no Int reduction because they lead harsh lives that brings out the natural selection of the world. Elves lead easy lives and they munch on leaves that they don't even have to look for. Why are hobgoblins less charimatic than orcs? Because hobgoblins rely on the anonymity of the group so that individuals are mostly unaccountable for mishaps or blame that's placed against a group of hobgoblins. It stunts their self-assertiveness. They use lots of White Raven, but not many are crusaders, if you're catching the drift. For a hobgoblin, it's often just as bad to be in charge as it can be to not be in charge. If you're truly in charge, all the blame goes on you when things go bad (and things go bad for hobgoblins rather a lot). in the books this is reverse; if you are keeping to their original alignments, why then would brutal creatures such as orcs (who'd rather kill you than negotiate) have no charisma penalty where as hobgoblins are at least willing to talk? Oh, well, I'm not keeping with the book I guess. I followed the Tome of Battle with the whole "hobgoblins have a strong martial tradition to be warblades" and from there kinda made up new stuff. I don't use alignment much, but if I had to pick racial alignments it'd probably be something like: Human - TN Gnome - TN Orc - TN Dwarf - LG Elf - CG Goblin - CN Hobgoblin - NE Kobold - LE If this charisma penalty is do to hobgoblin unattractiveness, then who are you to judge that your players would find an orc more attractive than a hobgoblin? Naw man, naw. Hobgoblins look awesome. Some of them even have capes and gliders. Finally, I see none of these races have favored class: fighter. Why no fighter love? It is just as good a class as any of the others, and fighters are twice as likely to survive in more situations than the rogue, bard, wizard, or sorcerer at low levels. (this question is not of high importance; the classes available in a particular game often amounts to flavor) Well, first. I took out all the arcane classes, and reflavored the warlock as a psionic guy. Martial Classes * Barbarian o Dragon Totem Barbarian o Jaguar Totem Barbarian o (more totems to come later...) * Commoner (not really martial, but no where else to list him) * Crusader * Expert * Fighter * Hexblade * Knight * Marashal * Monk * Ninja * Rogue * Samurai * Scout * Swashbuckler * Swordsage * Warblade Psionic Classes * Psion * Psychic Rogue * Psychic Warrior * Soulknife * Warlock * Wilder Divine Classes * Binder * Cleric * Dragon Shaman * Dragonfire Adept * Druid * Favored Soul * Healer * Paladin * Ranger Secondly, please do note that the classes listed are just the common classes that NPCs of that race are likely to be (say 60%+ of the time). There's no favored classes because I don't use the multi-classing EXP penalties. The fighter is tough as nails, and I also added a fair handful of bonuses onto the fighter to make them match up to the martial adepts and the totem barbarians. However, it's my opinion that the fighter is mostly a civilization generated combatant, and so most fighters will be humanoids from some city. Humans themselves are "any" as is, and if someone from one of the rest of the races were to come from a place that turns out fighters they'd be a fairly unaverage member of their race. That's ok though, PCs are meant to be extraordinary. I hope that answers all your questions. Feel free to pose any more. You're helping me make sure I've got all my bases covered.
Operation_Shoestring 10-30-07, 11:20 PM	Dude, you overpowered the Gnomes. That dodge bonus makes Reduced-Gnome builds even more overpowered that their already near broken level. Also, Elves with INT penalty make no sense whatsoever. The core classes are balanced, except maybe the Half-elves. Your changes worsen the unbalance. Elves losing INT screws them even more than losing CON, which already screwed them to start with.
sigma999 10-31-07, 03:01 AM	What's that sound? Oh, every time someone farts another PHB racial fix is born. These have merit but consider class/race combination as far as worst-case scenario goes (assume the most powerful combination with stat min-maxing) and work towards an average from there.
Captain_Kobold 10-31-07, 04:38 AM	I'm not going to comment on the power, since it seems that your world setting is differrent enough to change the usual PHB balance. However, your description of Orcs seems to imply that a Constitution bonus might be more fitting. Or perhaps Endurance as a bonus feat. Regarding the Gnome, the ability to speak to any animal or magical beast is fairly nice, but not quite as powerful as some might think. A Gnome meeting up with a wild wolf for example, is still going to be attacked and killed: he can ask the wolf not to, but the wolf has no reason to obey him. If the Gnomes in your setting have a slightly more amicable relationship with nature, consider giving them the Wild Empathy ability at 1/2 or 1/3 of their level instead. However do not give both: they work too well together. Perhaps allow the +4 bonus on Handle animal checks to apply to Wild Empathy as well? Animal companion at full effective Druid level is rather too powerful to give out as just a feat. Perhaps 1/3 Druid level, or simply give Gnomes an effective leadership bonus when taking the Wild Cohort feat. What is this "Athletics" that the Elves get a bonus to? Houseruled combination of skills? Are Dwarves slowed by encumbrance even if not by armour? Might want to add that bit in if not.
Lokathor 10-31-07, 09:47 AM	Dude, you overpowered the Gnomes. That dodge bonus makes Reduced-Gnome builds even more overpowered that their already near broken level. Yeah, but if they reduce themselves to Tiny size to get +4 against Medium creatures, they don't have any reach at all. They'd have to enter a foe's square (which provokes an AoO that tumble can't avoid) just to make any melee attacks. They could still use ranged weapons, but thrown weapons aren't so hot when your Strength is -2 from Reduce, and projectile weapons get -1 die size from reduce because the damage is based off of the launcher. Also, Elves with INT penalty make no sense whatsoever. Open the Monster Manual to page 104. Go on, it doesn't bite. Read the little blurb about Wild Elves. Open any of the other literature you might have on different kinds of elves that talks about Wild Elves. They're the base for this elf; The High Elf (which is the default elf in the PHB) is unrelated to this elf except for the pointy ears. The core classes are balanced, except maybe the Half-elves. Your changes worsen the unbalance. Elves losing INT screws them even more than losing CON, which already screwed them to start with. No way it screws the elf. There are many classes that can stand to have -2 Int and not even care. There are no classes that can stand to have -2 Con and not even care. How does losing Int screw them over? They can still be: Barbarian, Crusader, Fighter, Hexblade, Knight, Marashal, Monk, Rogue, Samurai, Scout, Swordsage, Warblade, Psychic Warrior, Soulknife, Warlock, Wilder, Binder, Cleric, Dragon Shaman, Dragonfire Adept, Druid, Favored Soul, Healer, Paladin, Ranger. I appear to have only not listed Ninja (who, rewritten to avoid MAD, use Int to AC without Armor), Psion (int based 'caster'), and Swashbuckler (int to damge as an important class features). Losing Int is way easier to live with then losing Con (which these elves don't do). These have merit but consider class/race combination as far as worst-case scenario goes (assume the most powerful combination with stat min-maxing) and work towards an average from there. Well, does anything bad jump out at you? Right now the group is a Human Hexblade, an Elf Ranger who was reincarnated into a Goblin, a Hobgoblin Rogue/Warblade, and a dragonblooded Elf Barbarian1/Dragonfire Adept1/Cleric1 who was reincarnated into a Kobold. The hobgoblin can Rapidshot Javelins for 1d6+5 each (Str20) up to 60ft away (Farshot, and Gauntlets of Extend Range from MIC), which is very good at level 3. Everyone else is mostly normal. The player who is now a Kobold doesn't do much, but he's got a terrible class combination (I've told him to just rebuild for free several times, he never wants to). Since most racial imbalances jump out at the low levels instead of the high ones I'm probably safe until they roll up new characters. However, your description of Orcs seems to imply that a Constitution bonus might be more fitting. Or perhaps Endurance as a bonus feat. Hmm, I was trying to duplicate Endurance with the +4 against hot and cold environments. I also wanted to have a race that had a Stat bonus without a stat penalty and keep it reasonably LA +0. I guess just giving out the Endurance feat isn't much more anyways. Con does seem to make more sense then Str, but Con is also a stronger stat then Str in the long run, because everyone uses Con. I really want to keep it as a race with an overall stat bonus that's also LA+0. Regarding the Gnome, the ability to speak to any animal or magical beast is fairly nice, but not quite as powerful as some might think. A Gnome meeting up with a wild wolf for example, is still going to be attacked and killed: he can ask the wolf not to, but the wolf has no reason to obey him. Exactly, which is why gnomes are slightly fearful of animals, and the stick to their tribes, which in turn stick with some kind of animal pack that can help protect them. Class levels also do a lot to fend off animals too. Forest Gnomes (in the MM) actually have the ability to speak to animals at will normally, but it's limited to burrowing mammals only. If the Gnomes in your setting have a slightly more amicable relationship with nature, consider giving them the Wild Empathy ability at 1/2 or 1/3 of their level instead. However do not give both: they work too well together. I had almost forgotten about Wild Empathy. I've never seen it used in play ever. Actually, I had a ranger who used the equivalent once in 2nd edition. I guess they would have a bonus on Wild Empathy as well. I took Wild Empathy off of the Ranger and made them a whole lot more scout like (almost to the point of making the new ranger just a gestalt of the PHB ranger and the Scout). After that I forgot about it. You really think the Animal Companion is stronger than the normal Cohort you get from Leadership? If so, it says volumes about the PHB druid. That's why I have the Animal Companion feat require 6th level while the others are available at first. Athletics is the houserule combination of Swim, Climb, and Jump into a single skill. The uses stay separate, and bonuses to just one activity are tracked separately (so, +4 jump doesn't make you better at climb), but I just don't use enough situations for any one of the skills to justify putting ranks into just one kind of activity. I'd also allow Athletics checks to keep running instead of just Con checks, and stuff like that, if the player wants. Oh, and no, dwarves are not slowed by encumbrance. I'll fix the OP and my notes with that one.
Operation_Shoestring 10-31-07, 03:35 PM	Yeah, but if they reduce themselves to Tiny size to get +4 against Medium creatures, they don't have any reach at all. They'd have to enter a foe's square (which provokes an AoO that tumble can't avoid) just to make any melee attacks. They could still use ranged weapons, but thrown weapons aren't so hot when your Strength is -2 from Reduce, and projectile weapons get -1 die size from reduce because the damage is based off of the launcher. You clearly haven't seen a Minignome build. Underfoot fighting makes infringing on an enemy square well worth it. No way it screws the elf. There are many classes that can stand to have -2 Int and not even care. There are no classes that can stand to have -2 Con and not even care. How does losing Int screw them over? They can still be: Barbarian, Crusader, Fighter, Hexblade, Knight, Marashal, Monk, Rogue, Samurai, Scout, Swordsage, Warblade, Psychic Warrior, Soulknife, Warlock, Wilder, Binder, Cleric, Dragon Shaman, Dragonfire Adept, Druid, Favored Soul, Healer, Paladin, Ranger. I appear to have only not listed Ninja (who, rewritten to avoid MAD, use Int to AC without Armor), Psion (int based 'caster'), and Swashbuckler (int to damge as an important class features). Losing Int is way easier to live with then losing Con (which these elves don't do). Elves have favored class wizard. Unless you changed that too, I may have missed it. Still, like someone else said, elves being dumber than Orcs doesn't fit the setting at all. Athletics is the houserule combination of Swim, Climb, and Jump into a single skill. The uses stay separate, and bonuses to just one activity are tracked separately (so, +4 jump doesn't make you better at climb), but I just don't use enough situations for any one of the skills to justify putting ranks into just one kind of activity. I'd also allow Athletics checks to keep running instead of just Con checks, and stuff like that, if the player wants. So your rewrite is based on house rules. no wonder people think it has balance issues. Swimming, climbing and jumping are rather different skills. If you are combining them, also unscrew the rogue by merging Open Lock into Disable Device (much less of a stretch).
Lokathor 10-31-07, 05:40 PM	You clearly haven't seen a Minignome build. Underfoot fighting makes infringing on an enemy square well worth it. And If a player actually plays the "Killer Gnome" build, I'll be the first to shake their hand. I'm entirely in support of powerful (or even absurdly powerful) martial characters Elves have favored class wizard. Unless you changed that too, I may have missed it. You did. I tossed the favored class rules and the multi-classing EXP penalty rules in general. There are "usual classes" listed, which indicate the classes an NPC is most likely to have, but they carry no special bonus. Also, check Post 21 (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14208045&postcount=21) for the classes list (near the very bottom, in an Sblock), which is mostly the normal classes list with arcanes removed and psionics put in their place. Still, like someone else said, elves being dumber than Orcs doesn't fit the setting at all. Well... the setting changed? The entire description for these elves is that they're essentially quiet leaf eaters who live for centuries, keep to their forests, and don't get worked up over much. That doesn't make for a smart culture, just a relaxed one. Meanwhile, Orcs get no breaks and have to struggle to survive near constantly. They're smart because the stupid ones get killed and natural selection goes to work. So your rewrite is based on house rules. no wonder people think it has balance issues. If you're considering just the races, it shouldn't particularly matter (within reasonable limits) what home rules you have for skills or feats or classes. If I'd instead written "+2 to Swim, Climb, and Jump" then there would be no house rules at all, and the intention and balance would both be preserved. Infact, I'll edit the OP to read that. Swimming, climbing and jumping are rather different skills. If you are combining them, also unscrew the rogue by merging Open Lock into Disable Device (much less of a stretch). They're not so different. They're all Strength based, they all apply armor check penalty, and all the classes that has one of them on their list tend to have the other two as well. They're also all really weak and useless on their own. I merged them into a single skill, and still no one took a single rank in it. Oh, and yeah, I banned Open Locks for being a stupid skill that Disable Device already covers. "jam a lock" is even the DC 10 example for Disable Device. Given that locks are DC 20+ to open, it seems entirely reasonable.
Lionhearted 11-01-07, 12:21 PM	Oh, and yeah, I banned Open Locks for being a stupid skill that Disable Device already covers. "jam a lock" is even the DC 10 example for Disable Device. Given that locks are DC 20+ to open, it seems entirely reasonable. I hope that you are aware that Jam is equal to "Destroy" and "seal shut" not "open", besides disable device doesnt tell you how to open a lock without hurting it.. sheesh how much longer do you think it takes for someone to discover a theft when the lock is still in place?
Lokathor 11-01-07, 02:30 PM	I hope that you are aware that Jam is equal to "Destroy" and "seal shut" not "open", besides disable device doesnt tell you how to open a lock without hurting it.. sheesh how much longer do you think it takes for someone to discover a theft when the lock is still in place? Ok, obviously you don't disable every device the same way, so it doesn't have to be just smashing it with a hammer. Now, the Trapfinding ability says if you beat the trap's disable DC by 10 or more, that you can bypass the trap along with your whole party and not set it off. Normal locks are 20, which is 10 more than the "jam a lock" listing. So, it makes perfect sense to me that you'd be able to pick the lock without any damage to it with the dc 20+ disable device check. Also, I tend to use "Disable Device" as a general "mechanics" skill, whenever it should come up; similar to, but separate from, Knowledge(Engineering), which tends towards the more immobile kind of 'mechanics' used for bridges, houses, castles, etc. Obviously you don't just shoot your target with a gun until it breaks, or anything like that, since that doesn't take skill. From that, I assume that the skill covers real technical skills. Since it also covers traps of any kind ever, including magical ones, I'd say it's a very comprehensive set of technical skills. Most DnD lock picking uses tend to involve dead bodies anyways. Either you killed them beforehand and you pick open their chest of treasure (or other locked thing), or you pick the lock to sneak in, then you kill them by surprise.