Post/Author/DateTime	Post
stargate525 04-24-07, 06:38 PM	Impossible? That's what they said about my flux capacitor!!! *ahem* Enough of the random quotes. Sorry. I'm trying to develop a race whose strength is their shapeshifting ability, but I'm not entirely certain how to balance this. Below is what I've got so far. -2 STR, -2 CON (I figure the lack of internal structure would do this.) The race (We'll call them 'Tim') begins at first level knowing 3 forms, 1 living form, 1 object, and his 'base' form (what he looks like when not concentrating). The other two can be anything he chooses (see the restrictions below). As he advances in level, he gains more forms. Tim gains a new living form at every odd level (to a maximum of ten at level 20), and an object form every level (to a maximum of 15 at 15th level). Tim doesn't have to choose a form right away, instead waiting for more powerful of varied options. Tim also receives a number of bonus forms equal to his wisdom BONUS. These forms are gained immediately and can be held off as normal. The restrictions for choosing forms are as follows; A form cannot have more hit dice, a higher level adjustment, or CR greater than Tim. (living only) The form can be at most 2 size categories larger or smaller than Tim's base size. Tim can not change into something expendable, such as a torch or wand (object only). Tim cannot become a magic item. For living forms, such as an eagle or an elf, treat it as a polymorph except that instead of replacing your physical stats, apply the form's physical attribute bonuses to your scores. For objects, such as a hammer or a torch, treat him functionally as the object, but with a hardness equal to Tim's character level, up to a maximum of what the material would normally be. The form's AC is equal to 10+Tim's armor and shield bonus. Non-moving plants, such as bushes or trees, count as objects (but not creatures with the plant type). Tim can still see and hear in object form, but takes a -5 to those skills. Holding a form takes concentration and practice. Tim gets the skill Control Shape as a class skill automatically, and can take 10 on this check at any time. Assuming a known form other than his normal form requires a DC 20 check. Failure by less than five means that the form was assumed, but the cosmetics of the form are off (lips are undefined, no fingernails, etc.), and that you are still obviously a shapeshifter. Failure by more than five means that you failed to assume the form. Assuming an unknown form has a base check DC of 30, modified by the following; -4 if the form is very similar to a known form (a brass and silver candlestick, for instance). -2 if the form is somewhat similar to a known form (an eagle and a sparrow). +4 if Tim has not been able to examine the form (includes touch and close observation for at least an hour). This is never applied to similar forms. +6 if the form is a mixture of two or more objects (a normal brick, but with legs). +10 if you are breaking one of the restrictions above. This penalty is cumulative for each restriction broken. Like I said above, please critique this honestly. Any help you can give me is appreciated, even if it requires that I start over.
FreAkOuTRG 04-24-07, 08:26 PM	Don't worry about HD. Limit CR. Or both.
ressurrector 04-24-07, 09:22 PM	It also helps if you change polymorph in one subtle way: Add the racial ability bonuses to your own stats to determine your new stats, instead of taking the stats as listed in the MM. This helps prevent the abuse of 3str/3dex/3con characters with troll forms and such...
LeuktheSavior 04-24-07, 09:33 PM	I agree with ressurrector. your stats should be the only ones that apply even if you take a form of a hulking monster. if you turn into something with an increased Natural AC thats fair, but you shouldnt gain anything as far as ability modifiers. if you have straight 18s, transform into a troll that looks like it has the fiendish template you still have straight 18's.
stargate525 04-24-07, 09:41 PM	It also helps if you change polymorph in one subtle way: Add the racial ability bonuses to your own stats to determine your new stats, instead of taking the stats as listed in the MM. This helps prevent the abuse of 3str/3dex/3con characters with troll forms and such... I agree with ressurrector. your stats should be the only ones that apply even if you take a form of a hulking monster. if you turn into something with an increased Natural AC thats fair, but you shouldnt gain anything as far as ability modifiers. if you have straight 18s, transform into a troll that looks like it has the fiendish template you still have straight 18's. I agree with both of you, that only makes sense. So no altering of the mental stats, and apply the racial abilities bonuses on physical stats. amending that now. Don't worry about HD. Limit CR. Or both. I'm not too experienced at working with races, so I'm afraid I'm going to need you to better explain what the heck you're talking about.
YabaTheWhat 04-24-07, 10:29 PM	I agree with both of you, that only makes sense. So no altering of the mental stats, and apply the racial abilities bonuses on physical stats. Don't just apply the racial modifiers of the new form to the physical stats. Keep the shapeshifter's base stats even in altered form. See the spell Alter Self for appropriate mechanics. Then there's the issue that the racial options aren't restricted other than by hitdice. This poses a real problem if they choose starting forms such as a winged elf or pixie, granting the shapeshifter movement modes or other abilities that are inappropriate at very low levels. (Obviously they wouldn't gain the pixie's numerous special abilities.) With the current wording for the ability's advancement, and the starting forms of 2 creature and 4 object, they won't gain any new forms until at least 6th level. That might not be a problem, but it'd probably be better to start them with 1 creature and 1 object form (besides their own), then have them gain one new form option per hit die (object at even hitdice, creature at odd hitdice), which they can select immediately or save until later for better options.
stargate525 04-24-07, 11:17 PM	Don't just apply the racial modifiers of the new form to the physical stats. Keep the shapeshifter's base stats even in altered form. See the spell Alter Self for appropriate mechanics. I see your point in that. However, I still think there has to be some physical effect to becoming a big honkin' dragon. Remember Tim's negatives to the stat already. Then there's the issue that the racial options aren't restricted other than by hitdice. This poses a real problem if they choose starting forms such as a winged elf or pixie, granting the shapeshifter movement modes or other abilities that are inappropriate at very low levels. (Obviously they wouldn't gain the pixie's numerous special abilities.) Maybe I should do that by CR then? ...That's what FreAkOuTRG was saying... dur. With the current wording for the ability's advancement, and the starting forms of 2 creature and 4 object, they won't gain any new forms until at least 6th level. That might not be a problem, but it'd probably be better to start them with 1 creature and 1 object form (besides their own), then have them gain one new form option per hit die (object at even hitdice, creature at odd hitdice), which they can select immediately or save until later for better options. I like the idea of not counting Tim's original form as a form, then starting the count at 1. The problem with your object progression is that it'll come up to 10. I'd like that number to be higher, since this ability will quickly become outshined in higher levels (since the barring of magic items). I'll hold of on changing until these issues are hammered out down here, but you've given me something to think about for certain.
DragonicHeritage 04-25-07, 12:32 AM	This seems to be a neat idea for a race. Maybe for number of forms, perhaps limit them at a set HD, like 10, but then let them keep progressing based on their(INT, CHA, or WIS-I'm partial to WIS myself) bonus. So, say they get a new form every second HD, but to a maximum HD of 10-so 5 forms. They then have a 15 in their, say WIS, so +3 bonus. This lets them keep getting more up to HD 16-8 forms. Maybe something like this, iff'n ya know? Good luck, and I hope you understand and I hope this helps. :D
YabaTheWhat 04-25-07, 08:12 AM	Using challenge ratings as a gauge won't really work well either, because it brings up the whole ECL vs CR argument. How does one gauge what level/CR ratio would actually work? Maybe use ECL (where applicable) instead? Wait, no, that fails in the opposite direction, because the abilities gained from a shapechange akin to Alter Self (or perhaps even Polymorph) won't be worth the wait. The best technique may be a double progression. Allow them to take the forms of races that meet the following conditions: >> The new form's hit dice cannot exceed the shapechanger's own. >> The new form's level adjustment (if applicable) is less than (not equal to) the shapechanger's hit dice. >> The new form's challenge rating is less than (not equal to) the shapechanger's hit dice. Solving ability score adjustments on the size change is easy. Have size changes treated as per the Enlarge Person and Reduce Person spells. Racial abilities are expected to lose relative value as the character progresses in level. This is particularly true where the race does not pay a level penalty (in LA or racial hit dice) for the ability, because any penalties they suffer will also lose relevance at higher levels. A smart player using this race would choose a bird for his first creature form, because it allows flight (for scouting purposes).
Phalo 04-25-07, 12:28 PM	a few suggestions 1 make the base race form a slime/thick liquid size small move speed of like 10 -2 str +2wis make the shape shifting use a skill control shape (wis) 1. make the required form need a check like 15+hit dice of new form object will obviously be easier than living moving things 2. have character make a check at the gaining of each level this will say how well he can do that shape for rest of level if the shape is missed by up to 5 the resulting shape is rounded and rough looking feature seem melted if missed more that 5 shape is generally right but not recongizable as member of race you are trying to become 1 living and 1 object per level sounds reasonable add in can't go larger/small that one size category to begin with. This brings it more inline with alter self spells. i would advise against giving str con dex bonuses or stats of new form at least to start with unless you make this a racial class that has a level progression. To keep it a LA0 you have to keep the powers pretty low key. You could make a prestige class that kicks in at level 5 to advance this particular power of this race
stargate525 04-25-07, 03:46 PM	This seems to be a neat idea for a race. Maybe for number of forms, perhaps limit them at a set HD, like 10, but then let them keep progressing based on their(INT, CHA, or WIS-I'm partial to WIS myself) bonus. So, say they get a new form every second HD, but to a maximum HD of 10-so 5 forms. They then have a 15 in their, say WIS, so +3 bonus. This lets them keep getting more up to HD 16-8 forms. Maybe something like this, iff'n ya know? Good luck, and I hope you understand and I hope this helps. :D I think I do. So you get the forms acquired by the base hit dice of Tim, then extra based on Tim's wisdom bonus? I like that. As for the luck, I think I'll need all that I can get. Using challenge ratings as a gauge won't really work well either, because it brings up the whole ECL vs CR argument. How does one gauge what level/CR ratio would actually work? Maybe use ECL (where applicable) instead? Wait, no, that fails in the opposite direction, because the abilities gained from a shapechange akin to Alter Self (or perhaps even Polymorph) won't be worth the wait. The best technique may be a double progression. Allow them to take the forms of races that meet the following conditions: >> The new form's hit dice cannot exceed the shapechanger's own. >> The new form's level adjustment (if applicable) is less than (not equal to) the shapechanger's hit dice. >> The new form's challenge rating is less than (not equal to) the shapechanger's hit dice. Solving ability score adjustments on the size change is easy. Have size changes treated as per the Enlarge Person and Reduce Person spells. I like this. Consider it added. A smart player using this race would choose a bird for his first creature form, because it allows flight (for scouting purposes). A smart player would pick out forms for specific tasks he might need. A bird, for instance. Perhaps some sort of burrowing animal as well. One of mine would definitely be some sort of worthless piece of junk; the perfect disguise. Nobody expects the mossy brick! a few suggestions 1 make the base race form a slime/thick liquid size small move speed of like 10 -2 str +2wis The base race I had in mind was an ill-defined humanoid form. I don't want to force the first form on the player to be a humanoid base race simply so they can communicate. make the shape shifting use a skill control shape (wis) 1. make the required form need a check like 15+hit dice of new form object will obviously be easier than living moving things 2. have character make a check at the gaining of each level this will say how well he can do that shape for rest of level if the shape is missed by up to 5 the resulting shape is rounded and rough looking feature seem melted if missed more that 5 shape is generally right but not recongizable as member of race you are trying to become I like the skill idea. It might open up a class progression for similar effects. You could reconcile increasing power levels with a skill check, newer forms have a higher DC, and imitating something on-the-fly would have a [high] DC as well. I don't like the 'check at each level' thing, since that would make Tim's abilities swing wildly, and levels can last a long time. 1 living and 1 object per level sounds reasonable add in can't go larger/small that one size category to begin with. This brings it more inline with alter self spells. Perhaps a feat to allow larger or smaller sizes? I'm still waiting for someone to bring up the whole conservation of mass thing. i would advise against giving str con dex bonuses or stats of new form at least to start with unless you make this a racial class that has a level progression. To keep it a LA0 you have to keep the powers pretty low key. You could make a prestige class that kicks in at level 5 to advance this particular power of this race I dunno. Using Yaba's suggestion, at any one time he couldn't acquire anything he could not have chosen at the beginning anyway. Don't forget he would have to find a pretty strong race just to offset his own negatives. I'll get to editing the first post momentarily.
YabaTheWhat 04-25-07, 03:54 PM	One of mine would definitely be some sort of worthless piece of junk; the perfect disguise. Nobody expects suspects the mossy brick! Another good form is a gemstone, or something else of high monetary value. The easiest way past a security system is for the owner of that system to carry you across it. After the caper, make your escape as a mossy brick. You need to address what sensory abilities (vision/hearing/touch) they possess while in object form.
FreAkOuTRG 04-25-07, 04:02 PM	I still see potential problems. 1) What happens if the character dies/is destroyed in a taken form? Do they return to their normal body? 2) Tim takes the eagle and big *** boulder forms at first level. Do I need to elaborate?
YabaTheWhat 04-25-07, 04:17 PM	2) Tim takes the eagle and big :censored: boulder forms at first level. Do I need to elaborate? He takes falling damage from that too, y'know. Damage taken = 1d6 per 10 ft, minus hardness. That's an awful risk just to crush a single opponent. What's the hardness on standard issue rock?
FreAkOuTRG 04-25-07, 04:23 PM	Hardness 8. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#tableCommonArmorWeaponAn dShieldHardnessAndHitPoints) Which brings another point. Do they get the rocks HP? If so, they will easily survive.
stargate525 04-25-07, 05:20 PM	Hardness 8. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#tableCommonArmorWeaponAn dShieldHardnessAndHitPoints) Which brings another point. Do they get the rocks HP? If so, they will easily survive. I'd say no to the hardness, since he does not change HP. Otherwise, what's to prevent them from trundling a bomb into a base, then morphing into a block of adamantine? I still see potential problems. 1) What happens if the character dies/is destroyed in a taken form? Do they return to their normal body? 2) Tim takes the eagle and big *** boulder forms at first level. Do I need to elaborate? 1) he would revert to his 'base' shape. Keeping a different shape does require some concentration (soon to be the 'maintain shape' skill). Another good form is a gemstone, or something else of high monetary value. The easiest way past a security system is for the owner of that system to carry you across it. After the caper, make your escape as a mossy brick. You need to address what sensory abilities (vision/hearing/touch) they possess while in object form. grammar editing noted. :bored: And I will note sensory.
Nathreet 04-25-07, 05:48 PM	What's to prevent his object form from being a flawless 200 carat diamond or a chunk of adamantine? Maybe put a value limit on his object form. While the diamond might not be so bad, the adamantine could be. I think ECL would be the most appropriate measure of which living forms he could choose. ECL 1 or lower would be good (either 1 HD or 1 LA), IMO, to balance the -2 str and con. He'd keep his mental stats, while applying the racial modifiers to his physical stats. Otherwise he could shapechange into a pixie, which would be nasty and unbalanced at 1st level. That is unless you disallowed special abilities. What's your stance on those?
stargate525 04-25-07, 05:58 PM	What's to prevent his object form from being a flawless 200 carat diamond or a chunk of adamantine? Well nothing, except that after the first four or five times this trick is pulled any shopkeeper would begin to really bang on the diamond (since its hardness can take it) or melt down the adamantine. Maybe put a value limit on his object form. While the diamond might not be so bad, the adamantine could be. It occurs to me, what would happen if some sorcerer happened to try and use one as a material component? That is unless you disallowed special abilities. What's your stance on those? As polymorph, so it would keep them... The pixie isn't in the SRD, and I can't get to my books right now... a pixie has a CR, LA, and HD of less than 1?
FreAkOuTRG 04-25-07, 06:00 PM	It's under Sprite (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sprite.htm#pixie)
stargate525 04-25-07, 06:18 PM	Ouch... As it stands though, Tim couldn't get access to that until he was level 4-6 anyway. It's certainly powerful... I'll have to think about this.
FreAkOuTRG 04-25-07, 06:23 PM	Ouch... As it stands though, Tim couldn't get access to that until he was level 4-6 anyway. It's certainly powerful... I'll have to think about this. It's broken, actually.
stargate525 04-25-07, 06:31 PM	It's broken, actually. The race, or the access to it?
FreAkOuTRG 04-25-07, 06:35 PM	The race, or the access to it?The race, pixie.
stargate525 04-25-07, 06:45 PM	The race, pixie. Oh good. Then it's really outside the scope of this race and not my problem. I know that's an easy out, but I can't go around fixing the entire Monster manual simply because this race can theoretically imitate all of them. Although I'd like to see Tim turn into a tarrasque.
FreAkOuTRG 04-25-07, 07:20 PM	Oh good. Then it's really outside the scope of this race and not my problem. I know that's an easy out, but I can't go around fixing the entire Monster manual simply because this race can theoretically imitate all of them. Although I'd like to see Tim turn into a tarrasque. Actually, the tarrasque is generally considered to be underpowered. Some tricks to kill it have been to transport it underwater, fly around shooting it, etc. But, again, the creature's problem, not yours.
stargate525 04-25-07, 10:25 PM	Actually, the tarrasque is generally considered to be underpowered. Some tricks to kill it have been to transport it underwater, fly around shooting it, etc. This I know. It would just be a good roleplaying aspect to see an old-looking elf turn suddenly into this enormous beast. ...so it looks good? More importantly, is it LA +0?
YabaTheWhat 04-25-07, 11:34 PM	Notes: Polymorph only grants a creature's type, extraordinary special attacks, ability scores, and features granted by Alter Self. The latter grants natural armor & weapons, movement modes, and size. This means that most of the special abilities of magically inclined creatures (such as pixies) would not be granted. The only thing that makes it powerful as a shapeshifting form is its flight speed. (As mentioned, the pixie itself is poorly handled. It has enough tactical special abilities to earn LA+8, but would be unplayable with such a large level adjustment.) I think that the object-style forms should grant hardness. Hardness is not supernatural or magical, and would be treated as Polymorph treats any extraordinary ability. Obviously taking an object's form would not grant the object's hitpoints (HP), because that would override the creature's own hitpoints. Maybe the list of available object forms should be limited based on value and hardness. More specifically, they can't take a form with a monetary value greater than their total XP, and only gain hardness up to their level (though they can take forms which would normally be harder).
stargate525 04-26-07, 05:07 PM	Notes: Polymorph only grants a creature's type, extraordinary special attacks, ability scores, and features granted by Alter Self. The latter grants natural armor & weapons, movement modes, and size. This means that most of the special abilities of magically inclined creatures (such as pixies) would not be granted. The only thing that makes it powerful as a shapeshifting form is its flight speed. (As mentioned, the pixie itself is poorly handled. It has enough tactical special abilities to earn LA+8, but would be unplayable with such a large level adjustment.) Which is exactly how I want it. Just because you are physically close to a creature doesn't mean that you're magical. I think that the object-style forms should grant hardness. Hardness is not supernatural or magical, and would be treated as Polymorph treats any extraordinary ability. Obviously taking an object's form would not grant the object's hitpoints (HP), because that would override the creature's own hitpoints. Maybe the list of available object forms should be limited based on value and hardness. More specifically, they can't take a form with a monetary value greater than their total XP, and only gain hardness up to their level (though they can take forms which would normally be harder). I like your hardness idea. Consider it added. However, I'm not certain what to do about the money issue; changing into a pearl should not be intrinsically harder than turning into a lump of clay.
YabaTheWhat 04-26-07, 09:06 PM	I'm not certain what to do about the money issue; changing into a pearl should not be intrinsically harder than turning into a lump of clay. That's not entirely true. Becoming a gemstone or other object valued for its purity requires a significant level of refinement. Add to that the fact that they must mimic the purified substance while still retaining the properties of themselves that will allow reversion to their natural form at a later time. To become a flawless diamond is essentially to eliminate all that defines one's self. A lump of clay or a rock, which need not adhere to such standards, can more easily include those elements of the shapeshifter's own essence. Precious metals lie in between the two; they require purity of material, but not of shape, so that the shapeshifter must put more effort into preserving his nature, but may still actually do so without undermining the form he wishes to assume.
stargate525 04-26-07, 09:19 PM	That's not entirely true. Becoming a gemstone or other object valued for its purity requires a significant level of refinement. Add to that the fact that they must mimic the purified substance while still retaining the properties of themselves that will allow reversion to their natural form at a later time. To become a flawless diamond is essentially to eliminate all that defines one's self. A lump of clay or a rock, which need not adhere to such standards, can more easily include those elements of the shapeshifter's own essence. Precious metals lie in between the two; they require purity of material, but not of shape, so that the shapeshifter must put more effort into preserving his nature, but may still actually do so without undermining the form he wishes to assume. I agree. That's why I didn't reference a diamond (I can't imagine how an entire transparent object would work). The problem comes in that I can't use that excuse, since ordinary objects (lanterns, crystal, etc.) have some of the same problems. Perhaps I could make it so that any item he turns into will only APPRAISE as that much... He could still turn into that flawless diamond, indistinguishable from the real McCoy, but under close scrutiny he still looks 'wrong.' Instead of experience points, I might go for (level)x(wisdom score)x2, so he'll max out around 1200gp. Is that too low? What do you think?