| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| KirkBb07-16-07, 01:24 AM | I swear I have seen it around somewhere, which book are these in? IIRC isn't the only change getting rid of the outsider type or something? Anybody remember where these are at? |
| runestar07-16-07, 01:44 AM | It is at the back of Player's Guide to Faerun. Basically, they are LA+0 humanoids. |
| AZNsupermarket07-16-07, 10:27 AM | Lesser Aasimar +2 Wis +2 Cha, medium, 30 ft., light (sp), paladin, humanoid (planetouched), player’s guide to faerun pg.191 Lesser Tiefling +2 Int +2 Dex -2 Cha, medium, 30 ft., darkness (sp), rogue, humanoid (planetouched), player’s guide to faerun pg.191 Really overpowered IMO |
| ChrisAsmadi07-16-07, 11:52 AM | Lesser Aasimar +2 Wis +2 Cha, medium, 30 ft., light (sp), paladin, humanoid (planetouched), player’s guide to faerun pg.191 Lesser Tiefling +2 Int +2 Dex -2 Cha, medium, 30 ft., darkness (sp), rogue, humanoid (planetouched), player’s guide to faerun pg.191 Really overpowered IMO Not really. Planetouched aren't really worth the LA+1 anyway. |
| Kadasbrass07-16-07, 12:45 PM | Not really. Planetouched aren't really worth the LA+1 anyway. While agreed their not worth an LA, their also over powered for LA 0, considering their granting bonus to mental stats with no penalty, or in case of tiefling a worthless penalty. There is no hairline dividing line that everything on this side is clearly LA 0 and everything on other side is clearly LA 1. Aasimars and Tieflings are sort of in a limbo between LAs, not fully worth 1 and too powerful for 0. Clear case of poor game design. |
| AZNsupermarket07-16-07, 02:09 PM | Not really. Planetouched aren't really worth the LA+1 anyway. Genasi are pretty balanced at LA +0, but I feel that Aasimar and Tieflings are both just a tad too powerful for LA +0, yet a little too weak for LA +1. |
| Fox Reeveheart07-16-07, 02:14 PM | there are articles that have tieflings and aasimars with no LA that was made right here on the WOTC website, i can't remember where they are but I really remember reading over the tiefling over and voer again. so just do a search for them. It was talking about like those kind of races and such, if I find links i'll help ya out |
| Sarlax07-16-07, 02:19 PM | Genasi are pretty balanced at LA +0, but I feel that Aasimar and Tieflings are both just a tad too powerful for LA +0, yet a little too weak for LA +1. Have them spend their first feat on the lesser planetouched quality. Now they're out a feat and they can be played at first-level. |
| Fox Reeveheart07-16-07, 02:56 PM | where is that feat? |
| AZNsupermarket07-16-07, 03:34 PM | Have them spend their first feat on the lesser planetouched quality. Now they're out a feat and they can be played at first-level. I feel like you underestimate what +2 wis +2 cha without any penalties can do for a cleric or paladin. |
| AZNsupermarket07-16-07, 03:47 PM | there are articles that have tieflings and aasimars with no LA that was made right here on the WOTC website, i can't remember where they are but I really remember reading over the tiefling over and voer again. so just do a search for them. It was talking about like those kind of races and such, if I find links i'll help ya out http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a |
| runestar07-16-07, 10:32 PM | there are articles that have tieflings and aasimars with no LA that was made right here on the WOTC website, i can't remember where they are but I really remember reading over the tiefling over and voer again. so just do a search for them. It was talking about like those kind of races and such, if I find links i'll help ya out That is not a LA+0 assimar. That is a LA+1 assimar which has been broken down into SS progression so you can play one right off the bat at 1st lv. You must still take the 2nd lv of assimar, so the end result is still a LA+1 assimar. |
| Aleolus07-16-07, 11:42 PM | Or you could buy off their level adjustment. When you reach class level 3 (char level 4 for Aasimar and Tieflings), you can spend an amount of XP equal to (ECL-1)x1000, to reduce your ECL by one, and get rid of one point of your LA. If you're LA is more than +1, though, you have to wait longer. |
| Polaris07-17-07, 12:30 AM | If you really must play an LA+0 Aasimar/Tiefling, I suggest the following (naturally it'd be a house-rule): 1. Change the type from Native Outsider to Humanoid. This will also get rid of the proficiency in all simple and martial weapons (making it more in line with LA+0 races). 2. Balance out the stats for LA+0. In the case of Tieflings, it's trivially easy: just drop the +2 Int bonus and you are golden. The remaining stats are +2 Dex/-2 Cha which is fine for an LA+0 race. The case of the Aasimar is a bit harder. One possibility would be to drop the stat modifications altogether for the Aasimar and you'd also be golden. Any mental stat bonus at LA+0 is playing with fire when designing races. Just those two minor changes and keep everything else the same, and these races are probably just fine at LA+0. -Poalris |
| AZNsupermarket07-17-07, 10:45 AM | Here are the version of lesser Aasimar and Tiefling that I use in my games: “Lesser” Aasimar (Monster Manual) +2 Wisdom -2 Constitution -2 Intelligence – Aasimars think with heart, rather than their mind, and will often strive to find a morally sound solution to a problem, which could be solved more easily using more morally ambiguous tactics. Physically, their bodies are a little frail, which is often purposely hidden by their choice in apparel. • Medium Size • 30’ movement • Humanoid (planetouched) • Darkvision 60’ • Alignment Focus: “Lesser” Aasimars cast spells of the good descriptor at +1 caster level • Daylight (1/day) at Character level. • +2 Racial bonus on Listen & Spot checks • +1 racial bonus on saving throws against all good spells and effects. This bonus increases by +1 for every five class levels the “Lesser” Aasimar attains. • Favored Class: Cleric • Level Adjustment +0 Balanced Crunch-wise: There are a thousand and one ways to start off as a really cheesy LA +0 character with a bonus to wisdom. This is fairly balanced. Clerics have always been fairly dependent on constitution, and ever since the wildshaping errata forced druids to retain their original HP, they have as well become dependent on constitution as well. “Lesser” Tiefling (Monster Manual) +2 Intelligence +2 Dexterity -2 Charisma -2 Constitution – A Tiefling’s personality is cold and calculating. They physically quick on their feat, but a little frail. • Medium Size • 30’ movement • Humanoid (planetouched) • Darkvision 60’ • Alignment Focus: “Lesser” Tieflings cast spells of the evil descriptor at +1 caster level • Darkness (1/day) at Character level. • +2 Racial bonus on Bluff & Hide checks • +1 racial bonus on saving throws against all evil spells and effects. This bonus increases by +1 for every five class levels the “Lesser” Tiefling attains. • Favored Class: Rogue • Level Adjustment +0 Balanced Crunch-wise: The ability score adjustment match those of the fire elf (Unearthed Arcana). |
| robitusinz07-18-07, 05:07 PM | I feel like you underestimate what +2 wis +2 cha without any penalties can do for a cleric or paladin. Not enough. Not all abilities are rated equally. Not only that, but you have to balance the races against themselves. +2 Wis and +2 Cha for an Aasimar who has nothing other than the ability to cast "Light" (big whoop) is garbage when compared to the Dwarf race which gets +2 Con, -2 Cha, Darkvision, Stonecunning, +2 to saves vs. spells, Stability, Weapon Familiarity, and a myriad of racial bonuses to certain activities. The Half-Orc gets +2 Strength, but sacrifices 2 Int and 2 Cha. Nobody says, "Wow, that -2 Cha is killer for making a Half-Orc Paladin", because no one cares. Charisma, unless you're specifically playing a Paladin, or to a much, much lesser extent, a Cleric, is irrelevant and forgettable. Consider the Dwarf as the upper echelon of LA0 races, and the Half-Orc as the very bottom. The Lesser Aasimar and Tiefling fit right smack in the middle. Think on this, +2 Wisdom on a starting character is a max Wisdom of 20. Even in general, +2 Wis is only a +1 DC to spell saves, a +1 to Will saves, and around 2 spell slots (assuming that the +2 Wis takes you to at least 20 Wisdom, you get 1 extra 1st level and 1 bonus 5th level slot). Firstly, a +1 DC to spell saves is virtually irrelevant for a Paladin, and for a Cleric, it's not that big of a deal. The classes that use Wisdom as their main spellcasting stat don't typically launch offensive spells. The Will save bonus is potatoes...Clerics and Paladins already get good Will saves, and Paladins get such insane saves, that +1 hardly matter. The extra spell slots are cool, but that just means 1 or 2 extra spells per day. Compared to a +2 in Strength, which is used in EVERY SINGLE ATTACK ROLL AND DAMAGE ROLL - I won't even bother listing all the extra bonuses to high strength, since, IMO, this is by far the most relevant - +2 Wisdom is nothing. Look, if the race is good for Clerics and Paladins, it doesn't mean it's broken...it just means that it's a good fit. Frankly, the ability bonuses are no big deal. Magic items are plentiful in D&D and can make up for weak scores. Even if you're worried about the "early game", a 20 Wisdom is just 1 extra spell per day over a 12 Wisdom. The Cleric won't be breezing through any encounters by himself. |
| AZNsupermarket07-18-07, 06:05 PM | Not enough. Not all abilities are rated equally. Not only that, but you have to balance the races against themselves. +2 Wis and +2 Cha for an Aasimar who has nothing other than the ability to cast "Light" (big whoop) is garbage when compared to the Dwarf race which gets +2 Con, -2 Cha, Darkvision, Stonecunning, +2 to saves vs. spells, Stability, Weapon Familiarity, and a myriad of racial bonuses to certain activities. The Half-Orc gets +2 Strength, but sacrifices 2 Int and 2 Cha. Nobody says, "Wow, that -2 Cha is killer for making a Half-Orc Paladin", because no one cares. Charisma, unless you're specifically playing a Paladin, or to a much, much lesser extent, a Cleric, is irrelevant and forgettable. Consider the Dwarf as the upper echelon of LA0 races, and the Half-Orc as the very bottom. The Lesser Aasimar and Tiefling fit right smack in the middle. Think on this, +2 Wisdom on a starting character is a max Wisdom of 20. Even in general, +2 Wis is only a +1 DC to spell saves, a +1 to Will saves, and around 2 spell slots (assuming that the +2 Wis takes you to at least 20 Wisdom, you get 1 extra 1st level and 1 bonus 5th level slot). Firstly, a +1 DC to spell saves is virtually irrelevant for a Paladin, and for a Cleric, it's not that big of a deal. The classes that use Wisdom as their main spellcasting stat don't typically launch offensive spells. The Will save bonus is potatoes...Clerics and Paladins already get good Will saves, and Paladins get such insane saves, that +1 hardly matter. The extra spell slots are cool, but that just means 1 or 2 extra spells per day. Compared to a +2 in Strength, which is used in EVERY SINGLE ATTACK ROLL AND DAMAGE ROLL - I won't even bother listing all the extra bonuses to high strength, since, IMO, this is by far the most relevant - +2 Wisdom is nothing. Look, if the race is good for Clerics and Paladins, it doesn't mean it's broken...it just means that it's a good fit. Frankly, the ability bonuses are no big deal. Magic items are plentiful in D&D and can make up for weak scores. Even if you're worried about the "early game", a 20 Wisdom is just 1 extra spell per day over a 12 Wisdom. The Cleric won't be breezing through any encounters by himself. No, they are so good at being paladin paladins and clerics that every other race doesn't hold a candle to them. Let's take clerics for instance. +2 cha +2 wis gives you: +1 dc bonus spells +1 will saves +1 to various skill checks +1 vs turning undead another chance to turn undead, which can be used for: divine metamagic divine shield (cha to AC - now also +1) divine might (cha to damage - now also +1) Remember that this is generally accept as one of the strongest classes ever created. Also keep in mind that every caster in the game's primary mission is to get their main caster stat up as high as they can while maintaining a decent amount of hp and ac (con and dex). Nearly every LA +0 race in the game that has a bonus to a mental stat also has penalty to either con or dex. An aasimar doesn't have either of those penalties. In fact, they are the only LA +0 race in the game with a bonus to any stat that doesn't have penalty to any other. By doing this, they are breaking one of the primary principles of race balance. if your a paladin, you get: +1 dc bonus spells +1 will saves +1 to various skill checks +1 to all saving throws because of divine grace +1 to attack because of smite evil A number equal to his level more hp healed due to lay on hands +1 vs turning undead another chance to turn undead, which can be used for: divine metamagic divine shield (cha to AC - now also +1) divine might (cha to damage - now also +1) I don't know if your in the crowd that says that mental stats aren't that important, but they really are. To pretty much all the most powerful classes in game, a mental stat is the most important stat they have. By optimizing your build, you can also get a lot of bonuses from just one mental stat: X stat to Y bonus (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=320889) |
| CreepingCharly07-18-07, 06:17 PM | That is not a LA+0 assimar. That is a LA+1 assimar which has been broken down into SS progression so you can play one right off the bat at 1st lv. You must still take the 2nd lv of assimar, so the end result is still a LA+1 assimar. IIRC you don't -have- to take the full progression. It works just like any other class. You can take another level in it if you want, or a level in something else. If you take more levels in the progression, you just "discover" your greater planetouched abilities through experience. --Charly |
| Erato07-18-07, 06:37 PM | Not enough. Not all abilities are rated equally. Not only that, but you have to balance the races against themselves. +2 Wis and +2 Cha for an Aasimar who has nothing other than the ability to cast "Light" (big whoop) is garbage when compared to the Dwarf race which gets +2 Con, -2 Cha, Darkvision, Stonecunning, +2 to saves vs. spells, Stability, Weapon Familiarity, and a myriad of racial bonuses to certain activities. I would choose 'lesser' Aasimar over practically any race, if I were to play a Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Sorcerer, Healer, Marshal, Favored Soul, Shugenja, Spellthief, Spirit Shaman, Dread Necromancer, or Warmage. And seriously consider it for Bard, Monk, Warlock, Ninja, Dragonfire Adept, Knight, Dragon Shaman. And that's not even counting all base classes. Bonusses to casting stats without any penalties are just that great. Compared to that, there's not nearly as many classes for which the Dwarf is a superior choice, especially considering how many other races have a bonus to con. |
| Erato07-18-07, 06:41 PM | IIRC you don't -have- to take the full progression. It works just like any other class. You can take another level in it if you want, or a level in something else. If you take more levels in the progression, you just "discover" your greater planetouched abilities through experience. --Charly As far as I know, you have to take all level in 'monster classes' since they're just a way to play creatures with LA at low levels, not to reduce the overall LA. I'm too lazy to find the quote now, but I believe it's somehwere in Savage Species |
| AZNsupermarket07-18-07, 07:15 PM | I would choose 'lesser' Aasimar over practically any race, if I were to play a Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Sorcerer, Healer, Marshal, Favored Soul, Shugenja, Spellthief, Spirit Shaman, or Warmage. And seriously consider it for Bard, Monk, Warlock, Ninja, Dragonfire Adept, Knight, Dragon Shaman. And that's not even counting all base classes. Bonusses to casting stats without any penalties are just that great. Compared to that, there's not nearly as many classes for which the Dwarf is a superior choice, especially considering how many other classes have a bonus to con. QFT |
| DM Zoc07-18-07, 08:24 PM | As far as I know, you have to take all level in 'monster classes' since they're just a way to play creatures with LA at low levels, not to reduce the overall LA. I'm too lazy to find the quote now, but I believe it's somehwere in Savage Species It said you did in Savage Species, but the Savage Progression articles (which came out afterward, and thus trump the old information) indicate that you do not need to take the levels consecutively. |
| sigma99907-19-07, 03:39 AM | If classes added more stat bonuses, like Fighter would gain STR,DEX,CON and casters can gain CON,DEX,(spellcasting score), would such an alteration render the Lesser Aasimar a subpar choice or still the same? |
| Spikes01k07-19-07, 08:10 AM | While agreed their not worth an LA, their also over powered for LA 0, considering their granting bonus to mental stats with no penalty, or in case of tiefling a worthless penalty. There is no hairline dividing line that everything on this side is clearly LA 0 and everything on other side is clearly LA 1. Aasimars and Tieflings are sort of in a limbo between LAs, not fully worth 1 and too powerful for 0. Clear case of poor game design. What about the Illumians? They got +2 to two stats of choice! There was alos a slight negative they gain. I believe they got all the negatives to being an outsider but non of the positives. |
| Erato07-19-07, 09:20 AM | What about the Illumians? They got +2 to two stats of choice! There was alos a slight negative they gain. I believe they got all the negatives to being an outsider but non of the positives. :confused: Illumians get bonuses to skills and ability checks, not stats. They don't get increased saves, hp, spell DCs, attack bonuses, or anything else. |
| AZNsupermarket07-19-07, 09:25 AM | :confused: Illumians get bonuses to skills and ability checks, not stats. They don't get increased saves, hp, spell DCs, attack bonuses, or anything else. QFT. Illumians aren't as good as one would think (unless your playing an archivist, dread necromancer, or mystic theurge) |
| RobbyPants07-19-07, 09:33 AM | If you really must play an LA+0 Aasimar/Tiefling, I suggest the following (naturally it'd be a house-rule): 1. Change the type from Native Outsider to Humanoid. This will also get rid of the proficiency in all simple and martial weapons (making it more in line with LA+0 races). Another thing this does is makes them vulnerable to spells that affect humanoids. I think this is the more important part. 2. Balance out the stats for LA+0. In the case of Tieflings, it's trivially easy: just drop the +2 Int bonus and you are golden. The remaining stats are +2 Dex/-2 Cha which is fine for an LA+0 race. The case of the Aasimar is a bit harder. One possibility would be to drop the stat modifications altogether for the Aasimar and you'd also be golden. Any mental stat bonus at LA+0 is playing with fire when designing races. I think you're on the right track here, although I don't fully agree with the sentiment of mental stat bonuses being bad. I've never fully understood why people think this is so bad. As long as it's only a +2 bonus, I don't really see how it gets too out of hand. Grey elves get +2 Int, and I've never seen it as a problem. |
| Seldriss07-19-07, 10:02 AM | I think you're on the right track here, although I don't fully agree with the sentiment of mental stat bonuses being bad. I've never fully understood why people think this is so bad. As long as it's only a +2 bonus, I don't really see how it gets too out of hand. Grey elves get +2 Int, and I've never seen it as a problem. I agree. Having a +2 in Int or Wis is going to increase spellcasting (or psionics), sure, but I don't consider it worse than a +2 in Strength increasing the hit and damage, or a +2 in Dex increasing range combat, AC and Reflex saves. |
| AMGriffin07-19-07, 10:59 AM | A lesser Aasimar could probably weasel by as LA+0 if you dropped the wisdom bonus. The lesser tiefling could just have its dex/int penalty (one of them) axed. |
| Kadasbrass07-19-07, 11:27 AM | I agree. Having a +2 in Int or Wis is going to increase spellcasting (or psionics), sure, but I don't consider it worse than a +2 in Strength increasing the hit and damage, or a +2 in Dex increasing range combat, AC and Reflex saves. Sure at level 1 a +2 Dex or +2 Str is alot more powerful then +2 Int or Wis, but after level 3 the different decreases greatly, after level 9 the Int/Wis trumps Str (aka blows it out of the sky by this point), while Dex remains little more useful but still trumped. |
| RobbyPants07-19-07, 11:49 AM | Sure at level 1 a +2 Dex or +2 Str is alot more powerful then +2 Int or Wis, but after level 3 the different decreases greatly, after level 9 the Int/Wis trumps Str (aka blows it out of the sky by this point), while Dex remains little more useful but still trumped. How is it really that much more powerful? Bonus spell slots? |
| Polaris07-19-07, 01:29 PM | How is it really that much more powerful? Bonus spell slots? Bonus spell slots are only part of it (but it does take multiple feats if playing outside of FR to duplicate this). Remember that the race will have a bounus to the mental stat for the duration of the career meaning more and higher level bonus spells. The real problem is +1 spell DC. A lot of people pooh-pooh this distinction, but they shouldn't. In the first place, this ability is worth 9 feats right off the top. In the second it's an unnamed bonus which stacks with all others (and it's very hard in 3.5 to increase spell DC). Finally at the highest levels, the spells that really matter (at least in combat) are invariably Save or Die spells (or Save or be hosed which amounts to the same thing). In fact for a caster, they are the bread and butter offensive spells. +1 DC really, really matters for the high level caster and at high levels is much better than just doing damage. So in short, the benefits given by a mental stat bonus are: 1. Useful at all levels (for the caster) 2. Increase in usefulness at high levels (unlike most attribute bonuses) 3. Increase the effectiveness of the most deadly spells (save or dies) That makes it better for the class in question than pretty much any other reasonable stat bonus which is why I said that if you put one of these on an LA+0 race, you are playing with fire. -Polaris |
| sigma99907-20-07, 01:54 AM | If classes added more stat bonuses, like Fighter would gain STR,DEX,CON and casters can gain CON,DEX,(spellcasting score), would such an alteration render the Lesser Aasimar a subpar choice or still the same? Well? |
| Kadasbrass07-20-07, 11:14 AM | How is it really that much more powerful? Bonus spell slots? It has more to do with how unbalanced the game becomes after level 5 between casters and non-casters. But case in point, +2 int/wis does allow that extra lvl 4 or 5 spell, and take look at what some of those do and then ask yourself is that really balanced compared to what str or dex does for non-casters. As a side note, Dex is pretty cheap since so many races have it as a bonus. Most likely the most common ability score bonus. |
| RobbyPants07-20-07, 11:26 AM | The real problem is +1 spell DC. A lot of people pooh-pooh this distinction, but they shouldn't. In the first place, this ability is worth 9 feats right off the top. In the second it's an unnamed bonus which stacks with all others (and it's very hard in 3.5 to increase spell DC). Well, I'm not quite sure the 9 feat bonus is a good metric. It is true that it would take nine feats to replicate that, but what ability scores grant and what feats grant are really two entirely different things. Take +2 Dex for example: +1 to hit with ranged attacks Equivalent: Weapon Focus with over a dozen weapons. +1 dodge to AC Equivalent: Dodge that can be applied against all opponents. +1 to reflex saves Equivalent: 1/2 of Lightning Reflexes. +1 to initiative Equivalent: 1/4 of Improved Initiative. In general, you get the "equivalent" of a lot of feats. You do have a point about the save DC's getting more important at high levels, but also remember that +2 Dex, Con, and Wis each grant an equivalent bonus against all saves of that type. Also, even though saves can be boosted twice on an individual school with the appropriate Spell Focus feats, each of the three saves can be boosted by two points with a single feat. So in short, the benefits given by a mental stat bonus are: 1. Useful at all levels (for the caster) 2. Increase in usefulness at high levels (unlike most attribute bonuses) 3. Increase the effectiveness of the most deadly spells (save or dies) It has more to do with how unbalanced the game becomes after level 5 between casters and non-casters. But case in point, +2 int/wis does allow that extra lvl 4 or 5 spell, and take look at what some of those do and then ask yourself is that really balanced compared to what str or dex does for non-casters. Yeah, that's something I actually never put much thought into: how it becomes more useful at higher levels. Often times, I tend to think of this in terms of low levels (since it's when all characters are really "created"). You two do have a point in that +2 Int is better than +2 Str in the long run. |
| Polaris07-20-07, 11:38 AM | Well, I'm not quite sure the 9 feat bonus is a good metric. It is true that it would take nine feats to replicate that, but what ability scores grant and what feats grant are really two entirely different things. Take +2 Dex for example: Actually it is (I've done a lot of feat analysis). +2 Dex is a good comparison point and I'll show you what I mean below: +1 to hit with ranged attacks Equivalent: Weapon Focus with over a dozen weapons. Not quite. This gets to the nub of the difference between spellcasting and mundane fighting. While it's true the +1 bonus will apply to any ranged attack, it's also true your typical character will only be using one ranged weapon at a time and there is no real advantage to switching between weapons in combat. The point is that a +1 bonus after the first weapon needs to be severely discounted and after the second should be ignored entirely (same applies to +2 strength for 'to hit and damage'). OTOH, a caster will frequently use many different sorts of spells and gets a strong mechanical incentive to do so....and thus the +1 DC is always useful. This is why spell-focus was nerfed in 3.5. Also remember that +1 school dc means a greater chance of ending an enounter while a +1 to hit merely means a greater chance of doing damage. Thus in feat analysis, the +1 to hit for Dodge is worth a feat...perhaps a feat and a half. +1 dodge to AC Equivalent: Dodge that can be applied against all opponents. Dodge is a very weak feat. I think most people would call +1 AC to be worth a feat. +1 to reflex saves Equivalent: 1/2 of Lightning Reflexes. +1 to initiative Equivalent: 1/4 of Improved Initiative. Agreed on both. In general, you get the "equivalent" of a lot of feats. You do have a point about the save DC's getting more important at high levels, but also remember that +2 Dex, Con, and Wis each grant an equivalent bonus against all saves of that type. Also, even though saves can be boosted twice on an individual school with the appropriate Spell Focus feats, each of the three saves can be boosted by two points with a single feat. Well, let's add it up. Looks to me as though +2 Dex is worth about 3-4 feats or less than +2 to a casting stat (and that's before I add in the regular stuff for it). Yeah, that's something I actually never put much thought into: how it becomes more useful at higher levels. Often times, I tend to think of this in terms of low levels (since it's when all characters are really "created"). You two do have a point in that +2 Int is better than +2 Str in the long run. You're not alone. A number of people when balancing/designing stuff tend to think only of low level balance...and that includes WOTC. -Polaris |
| RobbyPants07-20-07, 11:49 AM | Good point(s) :) |
| koiulpoi07-20-07, 01:54 PM | So, are you saying that I could take a +1 LA and get nine or more feats in return? Shouldn't equivalences go both ways, mmyes? |
| Polaris07-20-07, 03:04 PM | So, are you saying that I could take a +1 LA and get nine or more feats in return? Shouldn't equivalences go both ways, mmyes? Actually yes I am provided you are talking about entry level feats (i.e. those feats without other feat and/or level prerequisites). That's also assuming you have no other racial abilities whatsoever. In fact, you'd probably rue the deal. Feats just aren't that good (at least the entry level ones aren't). -Polaris |
| koiulpoi07-20-07, 03:35 PM | Actually yes I am provided you are talking about entry level feats (i.e. those feats without other feat and/or level prerequisites). That's also assuming you have no other racial abilities whatsoever. In fact, you'd probably rue the deal. Feats just aren't that good (at least the entry level ones aren't). -Polaris That's not the way it works. A human gets a bonus feat and a feat at level one. This human can take both Dodge and Mobility, even though Mobility has the requirement of Dodge. Also, the entire list of Metamagic feats from the PHB? There's 9 of them. Yeah, I'll take that for +1 LA. |
| Polaris07-20-07, 03:47 PM | That's not the way it works. A human gets a bonus feat and a feat at level one. This human can take both Dodge and Mobility, even though Mobility has the requirement of Dodge. False. That's not the way the human bonus feat works, true, but under feat analysis, the human bonus feat is actually worth more than a feat for this very reason. When doing feat analysis to gauge racial strength, you have to be able to assume that all feats you are comparing racial abilities to are of (approximately) equal strength. The best way to do that is to restrict the domain to universal entry level feats. Also, the entire list of Metamagic feats from the PHB? There's 9 of them. Yeah, I'll take that for +1 LA. I think that would be a foolish trade myself. The loss of caster level more than makes up for just the +1 DC (although you're right in noting that this is probably too good for LA+0). -Polaris |
| koiulpoi07-20-07, 03:58 PM | False. That's not the way the human bonus feat works, true, but under feat analysis, the human bonus feat is actually worth more than a feat for this very reason. When doing feat analysis to gauge racial strength, you have to be able to assume that all feats you are comparing racial abilities to are of (approximately) equal strength. The best way to do that is to restrict the domain to universal entry level feats. Interesting way of looking at it. You could still make an amazing jack-of-all-trades race using 9 generic feats from just the PHB. On the other hand, assuming that all the feats, even entry level ones, are of nearly the same strength, is just plain silly. I think that would be a foolish trade myself. The loss of caster level more than makes up for just the +1 DC (although you're right in noting that this is probably too good for LA+0). -Polaris (I think you misread me as Spell Focus; I said Metamagic.) One caster level loss, start with all metamagic feats. Or, start with a few of the Sudden ones and a few other feats. Take Sudden Quicken at level 6. Or 1 with two flaws. More than worth it. Also, consider that you said that a +2 mental boost is worth 9 feats. The Aasimar, considered a bit weak for +1 LA, has two +2 mental boosts, along with a few extra minor abilities. |
| Polaris07-20-07, 04:06 PM | Interesting way of looking at it. You could still make an amazing jack-of-all-trades race using 9 generic feats from just the PHB. With nothing else going for them, I'd rather be human thanks. Really, if you void out all racial abilities, the 9 feats don't look nearly so good. On the other hand, assuming that all the feats, even entry level ones, are of nearly the same strength, is just plain silly. I'll be the first to admit it's not perfect, but it's a long way from silly. It's at least an attempt to guage the game-strength of racial abilities in an objective manner. (I think you misread me as Spell Focus; I said Metamagic.) I did, but who cares. My answer would still be the same. Metamagic at level one isn't all that great, and there is a limit to how much metamagic you can stack (baring explicitly broken things like Divine Metamagic). One caster level loss, start with all metamagic feats. Or, start with a few of the Sudden ones and a few other feats. Take Sudden Quicken at level 6. Or 1 with two flaws. More than worth it. I strongly disagree. Casting level and spell progression for a primary caster is just that important especially if you use lots of metamagic. Also, consider that you said that a +2 mental boost is worth 9 feats. The Aasimar, considered a bit weak for +1 LA, has two +2 mental boosts, along with a few extra minor abilities. Ah, but you didn't take my point about the Dexterity bonus above to it's logical conclusion. True the Aasimar have two +2 mental stat boosts. However only one of them will be useful for an SAD primary caster (Druid, Cleric, Wizard, Sorc, etc). Thus only one of those two boosts will be good for the 9 spell-focus feats. -Polaris |
| koiulpoi07-20-07, 04:25 PM | With nothing else going for them, I'd rather be human thanks. Really, if you void out all racial abilities, the 9 feats don't look nearly so good. Eh, sure. I'll be the first to admit it's not perfect, but it's a long way from silly. It's at least an attempt to guage the game-strength of racial abilities in an objective manner. It's an attempt, but I still think it's silly. Then again, I don't go making custom races too often. I did, but who cares. My answer would still be the same. Metamagic at level one isn't all that great, and there is a limit to how much metamagic you can stack (baring explicitly broken things like Divine Metamagic). I strongly disagree. Casting level and spell progression for a primary caster is just that important especially if you use lots of metamagic. Metamagic at higher levels is great, and I'd still take it over one caster level. Sure, it hurts to lose a casterlevel, but you can spend your character's feats on whatever else you want, and there's plenty of feats to make a spellcaster more powerful once they've got metamagic covered. Especially with the sudden ones - that's the beauty of it, you don't need to increase caster level for them, and many of them have no requirement. Being able to (with flaws, which is a houserule, so bear with me) quicken, maximize, and empower one spell per day (each) at level 2 (+1 LA, loss of caster level) makes you more powerful than a level 2 wizard who can't do those things. At least for the first few encounters. You lose out to the warlock or +0 LA wizard after a few. However, I don't want this to become a discussion of the proper number of encounters per day. Ah, but you didn't take my point about the Dexterity bonus above to it's logical conclusion. True the Aasimar have two +2 mental stat boosts. However only one of them will be useful for an SAD primary caster (Druid, Cleric, Wizard, Sorc, etc). Thus only one of those two boosts will be good for the 9 spell-focus feats. -Polaris I see. Makes sense. |
| Grey_Mage07-21-07, 04:04 AM | No, they are so good at being paladin paladins and clerics that every other race doesn't hold a candle to them. If your group only goes for mechanics then youve got bigger fish to fry than wether or not Aasimar is a +1 or +0.... Unless of course your playing nothing but a dice heavy dungeon crawl... in wich case, leave them at the plus one OR make them a template or whatever else it is. In a group where the character concept is considered a bit more important and not all clerics will be Aasimar.... the +1 does nothing but make the occaisional cool concept harder to pull off, really. Please ignore my statement if you have immature gamers, are going for hack and slash only, or use point buy... None of wich applies to the games I run. Heck, I even remove the Tieflings -2 Cha... doesnt make sense to me looking at the infernal/abyssal stat mods. |
| mkill07-21-07, 04:41 AM | The only reason Wis +2 Cha +2 looks so amazingly powerful is that there is no other race in the PHB with a bonus to a mental stat. This makes the human with the bonus feat and the dwarf with +2 Con and tons of abilities kings for nearly everything. I would choose 'lesser' Aasimar over practically any race, if I were to play a Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Sorcerer, Healer, Marshal, Favored Soul, Shugenja, Spellthief, Spirit Shaman, Dread Necromancer, or Warmage. And seriously consider it for Bard, Monk, Warlock, Ninja, Dragonfire Adept, Knight, Dragon Shaman. And that's not even counting all base classes. I think that's a good list, it just looks so amazing because you included classes that nobody ever plays anyway (Healer) and other classes where you would just play a human for the simple reason that a better suited alternative does not exist. The only important class where Aasimar really excel is the cleric, but I'm fine with that because that fits the background of the race (much better than the dwarf being the best wizard and that's no joke). I'd also rather have Lesser Aasimar than "Bertie Botts Elves of every bonus flavor". |
| Erato07-21-07, 08:28 AM | If your group only goes for mechanics then youve got bigger fish to fry than wether or not Aasimar is a +1 or +0.... Unless of course your playing nothing but a dice heavy dungeon crawl... in wich case, leave them at the plus one OR make them a template or whatever else it is. In a group where the character concept is considered a bit more important and not all clerics will be Aasimar.... the +1 does nothing but make the occaisional cool concept harder to pull off, really. Please ignore my statement if you have immature gamers, are going for hack and slash only, or use point buy... None of wich applies to the games I run. Heck, I even remove the Tieflings -2 Cha... doesnt make sense to me looking at the infernal/abyssal stat mods. What are you trying to say? Are you saying that people having a discussion about how powerful the mechanics of a race is, don't consider their character concept important? Or that they're obviously immature, and only interested in hack and slash? Or that point buyers don't care for roleplaying? Or that people wanting a cool concept should get power for free, because real roleplayers (:rolleyes: ) couldn't possibly not care about power, and willingly be level behind the rest of the party because it made for a cool concept no matter what (and had the side effect of making the DM's job easier)? I don't have anything against roleplying elitists in particular, but I don't like people cluttering discussions about mechanics (balance) with their endless: "This doesn't matter unless you're going for pure hack and slash" which really don't contribute anything, or people claiming that balanced rules are somehow bad for roleplaying. If you have something to say about aasimars (crunch or fluff), you're welcome to share your thoughts. But if you only want to say that certain people obviously only care for hack and slash (unlike you), or aren't mature (unlike you), and make a jab aimed at point buy in process, make a new thread in the D&D General section. |
| Erato07-21-07, 08:45 AM | The only reason Wis +2 Cha +2 looks so amazingly powerful is that there is no other race in the PHB with a bonus to a mental stat. This makes the human with the bonus feat and the dwarf with +2 Con and tons of abilities kings for nearly everything. And maybe there's a reason for this. LA +0 races generally don't have positive ability modifiers without negative ones to balance, and most races with a mental bonus also take a penalty to either dex or con (including the much hated elven sub-races) to balance it for a pure caster.I think that's a good list, it just looks so amazing because you included classes that nobody ever plays anyway (Healer) and other classes where you would just play a human for the simple reason that a better suited alternative does not exist. The only important class where Aasimar really excel is the cleric, but I'm fine with that because that fits the background of the race (much better than the dwarf being the best wizard and that's no joke). I'd also rather have Lesser Aasimar than "Bertie Botts Elves of every bonus flavor". There are so many classes out there that even including just a few of them, you're bound to mention some that aren't played much. If I'd made a list about classes where the 'lesser' aasimar is a less than powerful choice, it would have included things like Samurai and Wu Jen. I personally don't think Bard, Cleric, Druid, Monk, Paladin, Sorcerer, Dragon Shaman, and Warlock are in that category. And I also took things like grey elves (+2 Int), buomman (+2 Wis), and spellscales (+2 Cha) into consideration when I made the list. SAD classes might not all benefit from both ability increases (if you don't consider bonuses to skills, saves, and the occasional secondary class feature), but the lack of penalties (especially con and dex) combined with energy resistance, skill bonuses, and daylight, makes the aasimar (and in a lesser case, tiefling) too atractive and powerful compared to other races, even if it's too weak to be LA +0 |
| DinwathSereglin07-21-07, 11:36 AM | No, they are so good at being paladin paladins and clerics that every other race doesn't hold a candle to them. Remember that this is generally accept as one of the strongest classes ever created. Nearly every LA +0 race in the game that has a bonus to a mental stat also has penalty to either con or dex. An aasimar doesn't have either of those penalties. In fact, they are the only LA +0 race in the game with a bonus to any stat that doesn't have penalty to any other. By doing this, they are breaking one of the primary principles of race balance. Which means that playing one should be completely at the DMs mercy. |
| Grey_Mage07-21-07, 08:16 PM | What are you trying to say? Ill go ahead and elaborate since you seem to have missed my meaning(s) Are you saying that people having a discussion about how powerful the mechanics of a race is, don't consider their character concept important? Nope, but I am saying that they tend to miss rollplaying restrictions that a race/class/feat comes with. Mostly however Im just saying that Ive seen this debate far, far, far to many times.... and I think its silly. Or that they're obviously immature, and only interested in hack and slash? Nope, what Im saying is that IF your going for a hack and slash game, and want to make sure the "power level" is "balanced" without forcing everyone into the same race, then you might worry about the Aassimar/Tiefling, but otherwise its not a big enough issue. Or that point buyers don't care for roleplaying? Nope... With point buy youve got a set area that your stats are in... so a +2/-2 isnt exactly even if its put right... and a +2/+2 can be giving a huge bonus to a person in character creation. One that I feel is largely negated by random roll generation of stats. Therefore if you use point buy, this can become a major issue for you... and I can understand that. Or that people wanting a cool concept should get power for free, because real roleplayers (:rolleyes: ) couldn't possibly not care about power, and willingly be level behind the rest of the party because it made for a cool concept no matter what (and had the side effect of making the DM's job easier)? I think people with a cool concept shouldnt be punished... for instance, a goliath barbarian will have a huge offensive, and hit point boost for its +1 LA, while the Aassimar gets a few defensive bonuses, and doesnt have to worry quite as much about wisdom.... Im sorry, but as all but the weekest +1LA out there *besides the godawfuly screwed hobgoblin* That Ive ever encountered I think its better off as the Humanoid outsider with a +0 LA. I don't have anything against roleplying elitists in particular, but I don't like people cluttering discussions about mechanics (balance) with their endless: "This doesn't matter unless you're going for pure hack and slash" which really don't contribute anything, or people claiming that balanced rules are somehow bad for roleplaying. Balanced rules are good for roleplaying, nor do I think theyre a bad thing. Im saying those people who propose that inbalanced stats MUST have a LA, are wrong. Unless your going by point buy, an optional rule I dont support, I think its just plain wrong. If you have something to say about aasimars (crunch or fluff), you're welcome to share your thoughts. But if you only want to say that certain people obviously only care for hack and slash (unlike you), or aren't mature (unlike you), and make a jab aimed at point buy in process, make a new thread in the D&D General section. Im sorry you got a different feel for what I read... those werent meant as attacks, but rather as exceptions. I feel whole heartedly, and have backed up with game play experiance that in a balanced game, or a roleplay heavy game, an Aassimar is not significantly better than a human. I still remain somewhat unconvinced that they are significantly better than the +0 la races in even a hack and slash exclusive enviroment, but as I havent played in those nearly as extensively I am willing to bow to those with more experiance than myself. |
| AZNsupermarket07-21-07, 08:58 PM | If your group only goes for mechanics then youve got bigger fish to fry than wether or not Aasimar is a +1 or +0.... Unless of course your playing nothing but a dice heavy dungeon crawl... in wich case, leave them at the plus one OR make them a template or whatever else it is. In a group where the character concept is considered a bit more important and not all clerics will be Aasimar.... the +1 does nothing but make the occaisional cool concept harder to pull off, really. Please ignore my statement if you have immature gamers, are going for hack and slash only, or use point buy... None of wich applies to the games I run. Heck, I even remove the Tieflings -2 Cha... doesnt make sense to me looking at the infernal/abyssal stat mods. I disagree strongly with a lot of what you said. Character creation for me and my group goes though three steps: 1. Create a powerful and interesting build. 2. Figure out an interesting back story for the build. 3. Decide whether or not it would be interesting to play the build If we fail at any of these steps, we won't play the build. Instant mixture of roleplaying and roll-playing. Proof of the stormwind fallacy. Are we immature? No. We do like power, but we avoid things that are obviously broken like Lesser Aasimars as printed in PGtF. Are we Hack n' Slashers? Well, we're partially guilty I suppose. The game tends to lean slightly more toward Hack n' Slash than pure roleplaying, but roleplaying does have a very large role at my table. Do we use point buy? Yes. The group just seems to enjoy the added strategy that point buy adds to the table. Am I impeding creativity by dis-allowing an over-powered variant? No, actually its the oppisite. If a player likes the flavor of something, but either the DM or player feels like it is either over or under-powered, I (as the DM) encourage the player to come to me and we work as a team to make it more balanced. In fact I even made my own version of the lesser-planetouched: Here are the version of lesser Aasimar and Tiefling that I use in my games: “Lesser” Aasimar (Monster Manual) +2 Wisdom -2 Constitution -2 Intelligence – Aasimars think with heart, rather than their mind, and will often strive to find a morally sound solution to a problem, which could be solved more easily using more morally ambiguous tactics. Physically, their bodies are a little frail, which is often purposely hidden by their choice in apparel. • Medium Size • 30’ movement • Humanoid (planetouched) • Darkvision 60’ • Alignment Focus: “Lesser” Aasimars cast spells of the good descriptor at +1 caster level • Daylight (1/day) at Character level. • +2 Racial bonus on Listen & Spot checks • +1 racial bonus on saving throws against all good spells and effects. This bonus increases by +1 for every five class levels the “Lesser” Aasimar attains. • Favored Class: Cleric • Level Adjustment +0 Balanced Crunch-wise: There are a thousand and one ways to start off as a really cheesy LA +0 character with a bonus to wisdom. This is fairly balanced. Clerics have always been fairly dependent on constitution, and ever since the wildshaping errata forced druids to retain their original HP, they have as well become dependent on constitution as well. “Lesser” Tiefling (Monster Manual) +2 Intelligence +2 Dexterity -2 Charisma -2 Constitution – A Tiefling’s personality is cold and calculating. They physically quick on their feat, but a little frail. • Medium Size • 30’ movement • Humanoid (planetouched) • Darkvision 60’ • Alignment Focus: “Lesser” Tieflings cast spells of the evil descriptor at +1 caster level • Darkness (1/day) at Character level. • +2 Racial bonus on Bluff & Hide checks • +1 racial bonus on saving throws against all evil spells and effects. This bonus increases by +1 for every five class levels the “Lesser” Tiefling attains. • Favored Class: Rogue • Level Adjustment +0 Balanced Crunch-wise: The ability score adjustment match those of the fire elf (Unearthed Arcana). |
| Erato07-21-07, 10:11 PM | Nope, but I am saying that they tend to miss rollplaying restrictions that a race/class/feat comes with. Mostly however Im just saying that Ive seen this debate far, far, far to many times.... and I think its silly. As far as I know, there isn't really roleplaying restrictions on the aasimar. Besides, roleplaying restrictions are mutable, game mechanics less so - which is why they're often discussed more here than flavor is. Nope, what Im saying is that IF your going for a hack and slash game, and want to make sure the "power level" is "balanced" without forcing everyone into the same race, then you might worry about the Aassimar/Tiefling, but otherwise its not a big enough issue. But the rules need to take both instances into account. If we're trying to find a common ground, we need to agree on good mechanics, not just mechanics that doesn't disturp a particular kind of game. An overpowered/underpowered character doesn't have to ruin a game. I've played a Shugenja in a fairly optimized party without ever feeling useless. But that doesn't mean that the rules leading to overpowered/underpowered characters doesn't need fixing. It's related to the Oberoni fallacy. Just because something isn't a problem in your game doesn't mean it's not broken. Nope... With point buy youve got a set area that your stats are in... so a +2/-2 isnt exactly even if its put right... and a +2/+2 can be giving a huge bonus to a person in character creation. One that I feel is largely negated by random roll generation of stats. Therefore if you use point buy, this can become a major issue for you... and I can understand that. I've found the same to be true for rolling. You make sure your race gives a penalty to your dumpstat and a bonus to your most useful stat, and you're golden. And as a bonus, it can even give you more flexibility. If, for instance, you want a Cleric with a decent Con and Cha, but rolled 16,11 for your second and third highest score, you can play a dwarf and have them be 14,13. Having a race with bonuses to ability scores can make your character a good deal more useful (providing you use it correctly), even with a penalty to balance, and two bonuses are very nice no matter what. I think people with a cool concept shouldnt be punished... for instance, a goliath barbarian will have a huge offensive, and hit point boost for its +1 LA, while the Aassimar gets a few defensive bonuses, and doesnt have to worry quite as much about wisdom.... Im sorry, but as all but the weekest +1LA out there *besides the godawfuly screwed hobgoblin* That Ive ever encountered I think its better off as the Humanoid outsider with a +0 LA. I think that if you play something because of a cool concept, you shouldn't need a mechanical reward. If a character is so underpowered that it becomes a problem, the DM and player can work something out. The 'cool' concept (and by that I mean: playing an unusual character) should not carry mechanical rewards, because it makes it too attractive, to the point of losing the 'coolness factor' because everybdy else want to play one. Balanced rules are good for roleplaying, nor do I think theyre a bad thing. Im saying those people who propose that inbalanced stats MUST have a LA, are wrong. Unless your going by point buy, an optional rule I dont support, I think its just plain wrong. I think WotC made a mistake in declaring the planetouched LA +1 and another in making the 'lesser' planetouched with LA +0. It's simply not balanced. Now, it might not matter in a very mature, roleplay focused group, were all are great friends and no one tries to surpass each other. But I've played in enough groups were everybody weren't friends with everybody in their spare time, and people weren't taking great pains to ensure everybody got in on the action, and there, having someone steal the spotlight too often could be very annoying (which was how I incidentally learned to min/max... well, that and sexism ;) ). Also, it is difficult enough for a DM to make balanced encounters as it is, so there's no reason to make it harder. On the other hand, there's no way balanced rules can destroy the fun for the perfect group. If the story requires someone to be more powerful, s/he will simply be allowed to play a character at a higher level/LA, since nobody's jealous. So you see, balanced rules is win/win, which is why I don't think there's any reason not to have them :) Im sorry you got a different feel for what I read... those werent meant as attacks, but rather as exceptions. I feel whole heartedly, and have backed up with game play experiance that in a balanced game, or a roleplay heavy game, an Aassimar is not significantly better than a human. I still remain somewhat unconvinced that they are significantly better than the +0 la races in even a hack and slash exclusive enviroment, but as I havent played in those nearly as extensively I am willing to bow to those with more experiance than myself. It was more along the lines that your post didn't seem to accomplish anything. It just sounded like another one of those annoying: "This is only important to rollplayers, not roleplayers" which show up in way too many debates about balance. (And I don't understand why, balance doesn't destroy roleplaying, and if they think people spend too much time discussing balance, they can make their own threads). But if it wasn't, I apologize :) |
| koiulpoi07-22-07, 12:07 AM | Here on the boards we discuss the rules because roleplaying has no rules. The mechanics of the game cause discussions and questions of balance, and these rules are separate from the flavor of things. Really, you can be the son of a God (a cool concept, no?), but you can either choose to have it be roleplaying-only (just be a human with golden eyes and hair, no mechanical advantage) or take a large level adjustment (to make it mechanically balanced). Again, character concepts and mechanics should be seperate, yet related. I can play the most evil, baby eating Aasimar on the planet, and it'll be a cool concept. Even though they're the grandchildren of celestials and have favored class: Paladin. There's nothing stopping me. I can play a Dwarf Sorcerer, even though they make bad Sorcerers (-2 Cha, but the +2 Con does help with the d4 hit die). The mechanics aren't punishing you for choosing this "cool idea" of a Dwarf Sorcerer; you're punishing yourself by choosing something mechanically inferior. If you really can't get over the idea, then play one and realize that it's mechanically inferior. It'll be ok, and I'm sure you'll have great fun. You'll just be less mechanically optimized than those of us who care about and spend time doing so. Optimizing our characters doesn't make us any less able to roleplay them well, nor does intentionally gimping ourselves make us better roleplayers. By the same token, taking a level adjusted class won't make me able to roleplay any less or more than they guy who's playing a vanilla human fighter. We try to balance the game mechanics, because otherwise it's unfair and can be taken advantage of. If you don't care about mechanical balance, then go ahead and play the Lesser Aasimar from PGTF, and enjoy your overpowered character. The rest of us will strive to make the game balanced for our own enjoyment, and for the enjoyment of most people, as most people enjoy game balance. |
| Sarlax07-22-07, 04:51 PM | I feel like you underestimate what +2 wis +2 cha without any penalties can do for a cleric or paladin. Check the context. You said they were too good for LA 0 and too weak for LA 1, so I suggested also depriving them of a feat to bring down their effective power. |
| Polaris07-22-07, 04:58 PM | Check the context. You said they were too good for LA 0 and too weak for LA 1, so I suggested also depriving them of a feat to bring down their effective power. The problem is that the transition from LA+0 to LA+1 is what I like to call a "type 1" or "sudden" phase transition. All the other LAs (1+) are type 2 or 'continuous' phase transitions. What I mean by that is this: A Drow is LA+2. It would be perfectly appropriate to take stuff away (such as SR) and leave the unbalanced mental attribute bonus, and this race would still be balanced at LA+1. This is a gradual phase transition. The problem with +2 Wisdom and +2 Charisma is that if you go from LA+1 to LA+0, then suddenly all the caster classes come into play without any loss of spell-levels. This makes the transition a "sudden" one, and thus merely taking a feat or some powers away from the Aasimar as listed in the book isn't good enough to make them LA+0 even though they are too weak for LA+1. -Polaris |
| High Octane07-22-07, 07:32 PM | Before people spout that dwarves get a lot, which I wont deny they do, lets not forget a few things: Seriously, how often does stonecutting actually come into play, even underground? It is so vague that the DM literally has to make everything up. Most people forget about that ability anyway I find. Also the 20' movement rate is a big deal. My cleric wears boots of striding and springing just for that, forsaking what else he could have had on his feet. Unlike gnomes and halflings who have the same issue though, he doesn't get a size bonus to attack rolls and armor class. |
| Polaris07-22-07, 07:39 PM | Before people spout that dwarves get a lot, which I wont deny they do, lets not forget a few things: Seriously, how often does stonecutting actually come into play, even underground? It is so vague that the DM literally has to make everything up. Most people forget about that ability anyway I find. Stonecunning (which is what I think you meant) is largely fluff. I'll give you that. Also the 20' movement rate is a big deal. My cleric wears boots of striding and springing just for that, forsaking what else he could have had on his feet. Unlike gnomes and halflings who have the same issue though, he doesn't get a size bonus to attack rolls and armor class. I agree that 20' of movement is a big deal, but when evaluating the strength of a race, we need to look at the class (or classes) that benefit the most from the racial package. 20' movement is a big deal for a dwarven wizard or monk (which is why I'm not too keen on Dwarf Wizards unlike many here), but let's consider any class that is likely to wear at least medium armor such as the cleric, fighter, paladin, and many others. In this case, the dwarf has no (effective) speed penalty next to other medium sized races and indeed can attempt things (tumble) that other races in medium and heavy armor simply can not (because they don't lose movement speed due to armor or encumberance). When you stack that, on top of the good mechanical things the dwarf gets, it's probably too much (or borderline at best). The reason the dwarf is so greatly is overpowered is simple. Dwarves aren't popular as a race and WOTC is trying to bribe players into playing this race. -Polaris |
| koiulpoi07-22-07, 07:45 PM | Before people spout that dwarves get a lot, which I wont deny they do, lets not forget a few things: Seriously, how often does stonecutting actually come into play, even underground? It is so vague that the DM literally has to make everything up. Most people forget about that ability anyway I find. Too bad you forgot about it, as part of Stonecunning is an automatic free search check when you pass within 10 feet of "Unusual Stonework". It's Elven Door Search lite. Also the 20' movement rate is a big deal. My cleric wears boots of striding and springing just for that, forsaking what else he could have had on his feet. Unlike gnomes and halflings who have the same issue though, he doesn't get a size bonus to attack rolls and armor class. A Dwarf in Full Plate and a Human in Full Plate move the same speed. Sucks for mobility-based classes, but your Dwarf can still pick up a Bow, can't he? |
| Kadasbrass07-23-07, 12:16 PM | Personally I don't care for LA 0 races giving a bonus to two different scores and a penalty to two different scores. It makes the race more focused since too many classes are now undesired, making the race too good at just a very limited number of roles/class. This for me is not balanced. The Planetouched as written in the monster manual does make for a better template then a race, I do agree there. But trying to work them out into LA 0 races doesn't sit right with me, mainly from their lack of actual unique racial traits. I use the following for Planetouched now, after looking at the different celestials and fiends, and other peoples suggestions. Aasimar +2 Wisdom, -2 Constitution. Medium Humanoid. Base Land Speed 30 feet. Low-Light Vision. +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy, Heal, and Sense Motive checks. +2 racial bonus on Fortitude Saves against disease. +2 racial bonus on saving throws against acid and cold based spells and effects. Blessing of the Divine (Su): Whenever the target of a conjuration (healing) spell the Aasimar heals an additional amount equal to the level of the spell. This benefit can only be gained once per casting. Spirit of Protection (Su): As a move action an Aasimar may invoke protective energies that grant it a +2 Sacred bonus to AC for a number of rounds equal to 10 plus their charisma modifier. Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day – Comprehend Languages. Caster level is equal to character level. Human Blood (For all effects related to race, an Aasimar is considered a human). Automatic Languages: Common and Celestial. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Halfling, and Sylvan. Tieflings +2 Charisma, -2 Wisdom. Medium Humanoid. Base land speed 30 feet. Darkvision 60 feet +2 racial bonus on Bluff, Hide, and Move Silently checks. +2 racial bonus on Fortitude Saves against Poison. +2 racial bonus on saving throws against fire and electricity based spells and effects. Fiend Sight (Ex): A Tiefling can see through magical darkness effects within 15 feet of themselves. Shift (Su): Tieflings have the ability to teleport a short distance. Each day a Tiefling can teleport a total of 10 feet times their character level. This amount can be split between a number of jumps in increments of 5-feet. Using this ability is a standard action. You can only bring along items you could normally carry unhindered. You cannot teleport through barriers that prevent line of sight. Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day – Message. Caster level is equal to character level. Human Blood (For all effects related to race, a Tiefling is considered a human). Automatic Languages: Common and Abyssal (or Infernal). Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Goblin, Infernal (or Abyssal), and Undercommon. |