Adjusting Level Adjustment! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Adjusting Level Adjustment! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jarysha
04-14-07, 03:00 PM I'm beginning a campaign tomorrow and I have accepted monster class. One of my players want to play a Keeper (Fiend Folio 111 (although we play 3.5)).
I was astonished to see its many abilities for a ridiculous LA.

Keeper character (in short)
speed 40, climb 20
+4 natural armor
SA: mimic weapon (make his arms any weapons it has witnessed and use it with proficiency), poison spit once per 1d4 rnd in a 20ft cone (DC14 nauseated 2d6rnd/2d6Con)
SQ: blindsight 200ft (and it's blind), body switch with another Keeper (irrevalent), DR 10/magic, dissolution (if held 10 rnd), hive mind (irrevalent), immunities (construct-like), outsider traits, resistances (10 fire, cold, acid, elec., sonic), scent, SR13
+8 str, +6 dex, +4 con, +4 int, -2 wis, -4 cha

Do you think that's worth a +3 LA with 4HD outsider? Me not.
Can you help me balance this... thing ^^... for a (max) 10th lv character. Tia!
Bladerock
04-14-07, 03:12 PM Think that the average adveturers have a CR equal to their Hit Die. Look at it's CR, that is what i do when i consider a level adjustment unfair.

If it is higher than it's hit die, leave the LA alone

If it is the same, you may drop a point or two as a houserule.

If it is less, feel free to drop it for as much as you think it's fair. Again as a houserule.

In the end, you should tell the player you are doing this but are not sure, and may bump it up again if you feel it is unfair to the other PCs.
Keenath
04-14-07, 03:13 PM I think they're pretty balanced as an ECL 7; what's your comment? Are you saying they're too good, or not good enough to justify ECL 7?
Keenath
04-14-07, 03:21 PM Think that the average adveturers have a CR equal to their Hit Die. Look at it's CR, that is what i do when i consider a level adjustment unfair.While that is true of PC races with PC classes, it's not a good idea to use that when you're looking at monsters. This Keeper, for example, has a breath weapon -- a 20-foot cone of poison. Now, in a fight, that comes up what -- maybe twice? Even a long fight rarely lasts more than a minute, and each turn spent shooting poison around is a turn you're not dealing damage in.

By contrast, a PC is going to benefit much more. Every battle opens with a blast of nauseating poison that very well may cripple most of the enemies before the battle even gets rolling. The PCs may invest in anti-poison gear just so they can get poison support while they're in melee! That ability is going to have a MUCH greater effect in the hands of a PC who can use it every battle, every day, and that's what the LA is for.
Bladerock
04-14-07, 03:33 PM In the end, you should tell the player you are doing this but are not sure, and may bump it up again if you feel it is unfair to the other PCs.

It's my way of experimenting with unusual PCs, as stated there.

For example, I may take away LA in exchange of wealth or equipment if it seems to fit the situation.

Example: OK, you can play the minotaur, but you can't EVER get a belt of giant's strenght or anything similar, M'k?

Using said minotaur as an example, he's not above a 6th level ranger in capabilities (the most similar class to his Racial HD), thus he is under the average PC in terms of Class abilities, plus if the player wants to play a non-fighter, non-barbarian minotaur, those HD are going to cause him more pain than good.

It's a case by case basis thing.
Jarysha
04-14-07, 05:12 PM Tnx Bladerock that was exactly what I was concerned for.

I was looking to balance the group, and what I twitched for was the many natural protections the Keeper had compared to others (who just had to buy magic item to simulate poison immunity, energy resistance, etc.). Considering that he will be a lv3 rogue with total base skills (sort of) equivalent of a lv10 rogue (spot +19, disable device +19, every knowledge +12, ...).
My point is that even with the loss of HD/BRB/Save/etc his abilities are very good and I think the great numbers of immunities and resistances he has, worth more than any magic item the other party members can buy to keep up.
Jaxgaret
04-14-07, 08:57 PM Seems pretty weak for its ECL7, to be honest with you.

Considering that he will be a lv3 rogue with total base skills (sort of) equivalent of a lv10 rogue (spot +19, disable device +19, every knowledge +12, ...).

Where are you getting those skill modifiers from? The character will have a max of 10 ranks in each skill.
Bladerock
04-14-07, 09:07 PM NP, always willing to help a fellow DM.

The OP's call is they are fine, after playing a few sessions Jarysha shall know wether it all turns fine or the LA is too much of a burden for the player. I say she (Jarysha sounds female, forgive me if you are not.) follows the call made, for now at least.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jarysha 04-14-07, 03:00 PM	I'm beginning a campaign tomorrow and I have accepted monster class. One of my players want to play a Keeper (Fiend Folio 111 (although we play 3.5)). I was astonished to see its many abilities for a ridiculous LA. Keeper character (in short) speed 40, climb 20 +4 natural armor SA: mimic weapon (make his arms any weapons it has witnessed and use it with proficiency), poison spit once per 1d4 rnd in a 20ft cone (DC14 nauseated 2d6rnd/2d6Con) SQ: blindsight 200ft (and it's blind), body switch with another Keeper (irrevalent), DR 10/magic, dissolution (if held 10 rnd), hive mind (irrevalent), immunities (construct-like), outsider traits, resistances (10 fire, cold, acid, elec., sonic), scent, SR13 +8 str, +6 dex, +4 con, +4 int, -2 wis, -4 cha Do you think that's worth a +3 LA with 4HD outsider? Me not. Can you help me balance this... thing ^^... for a (max) 10th lv character. Tia!
Bladerock 04-14-07, 03:12 PM	Think that the average adveturers have a CR equal to their Hit Die. Look at it's CR, that is what i do when i consider a level adjustment unfair. If it is higher than it's hit die, leave the LA alone If it is the same, you may drop a point or two as a houserule. If it is less, feel free to drop it for as much as you think it's fair. Again as a houserule. In the end, you should tell the player you are doing this but are not sure, and may bump it up again if you feel it is unfair to the other PCs.
Keenath 04-14-07, 03:13 PM	I think they're pretty balanced as an ECL 7; what's your comment? Are you saying they're too good, or not good enough to justify ECL 7?
Keenath 04-14-07, 03:21 PM	Think that the average adveturers have a CR equal to their Hit Die. Look at it's CR, that is what i do when i consider a level adjustment unfair.While that is true of PC races with PC classes, it's not a good idea to use that when you're looking at monsters. This Keeper, for example, has a breath weapon -- a 20-foot cone of poison. Now, in a fight, that comes up what -- maybe twice? Even a long fight rarely lasts more than a minute, and each turn spent shooting poison around is a turn you're not dealing damage in. By contrast, a PC is going to benefit much more. Every battle opens with a blast of nauseating poison that very well may cripple most of the enemies before the battle even gets rolling. The PCs may invest in anti-poison gear just so they can get poison support while they're in melee! That ability is going to have a MUCH greater effect in the hands of a PC who can use it every battle, every day, and that's what the LA is for.
Bladerock 04-14-07, 03:33 PM	In the end, you should tell the player you are doing this but are not sure, and may bump it up again if you feel it is unfair to the other PCs. It's my way of experimenting with unusual PCs, as stated there. For example, I may take away LA in exchange of wealth or equipment if it seems to fit the situation. Example: OK, you can play the minotaur, but you can't EVER get a belt of giant's strenght or anything similar, M'k? Using said minotaur as an example, he's not above a 6th level ranger in capabilities (the most similar class to his Racial HD), thus he is under the average PC in terms of Class abilities, plus if the player wants to play a non-fighter, non-barbarian minotaur, those HD are going to cause him more pain than good. It's a case by case basis thing.
Jarysha 04-14-07, 05:12 PM	Tnx Bladerock that was exactly what I was concerned for. I was looking to balance the group, and what I twitched for was the many natural protections the Keeper had compared to others (who just had to buy magic item to simulate poison immunity, energy resistance, etc.). Considering that he will be a lv3 rogue with total base skills (sort of) equivalent of a lv10 rogue (spot +19, disable device +19, every knowledge +12, ...). My point is that even with the loss of HD/BRB/Save/etc his abilities are very good and I think the great numbers of immunities and resistances he has, worth more than any magic item the other party members can buy to keep up.
Jaxgaret 04-14-07, 08:57 PM	Seems pretty weak for its ECL7, to be honest with you. Considering that he will be a lv3 rogue with total base skills (sort of) equivalent of a lv10 rogue (spot +19, disable device +19, every knowledge +12, ...). Where are you getting those skill modifiers from? The character will have a max of 10 ranks in each skill.
Bladerock 04-14-07, 09:07 PM	NP, always willing to help a fellow DM. The OP's call is they are fine, after playing a few sessions Jarysha shall know wether it all turns fine or the LA is too much of a burden for the player. I say she (Jarysha sounds female, forgive me if you are not.) follows the call made, for now at least.