Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zovc 09-30-07, 11:48 PM	I'm incorporating "monstrous" races into my campaign. Due to inexperience, I have no idea if this makes a big difference or not, I want to get rid of a race's (bugbear) racial hit dice. Racial Hit Dice: A bugbear begins with three levels of humanoid which provide 3d8 hit dice, a base attack bonus of +2, and base saving throw bonuses of F +1, R +3, W +1.[/*] Racial Skills: A bugbear’s humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 6 x (2 + int modifier). Its class skills are Climb, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, and Spot.[/*] Racial Feats: A bugbear’s humanoid levels give it two feats.[/*] Would removing this affect the bugbear's level adjustment of +1? Please explain your answers, as well, so I don't have to ask again.
ericSHINRA 10-01-07, 12:03 AM	I don't believe there is an 'easy' way to remove Racial Hit Dice to allow for monstrous characters. As I see it, racial ability modifiers, skill bonus, natural armor and the like are gained by the creature as it gains it's respective racial levels much like the Racial Paragon levels. +4 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, –2 Charisma. Darkvision 60 +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks. +3 Natural Armor Bonus These abilities are worth far more then a +1 Level Adjustment in itself which is why Racial Hit Dice balance them out. I'm not sure they'd be worth a +2 LA, however.
Sphyre 10-01-07, 01:06 AM	Would removing this affect the bugbear's level adjustment of +1? Please explain your answers, as well, so I don't have to ask again. Would removing Racial hitdice affect the bugbear's level adjustment? Short Answer Yes. Long Answer The Bugbear has an ECL (Effective Character Level) of 4. This is determined by adding all Racial Hitdice, Level Adjustment and Class Levels. Having an ECL of 4 means, in the hands of a player, he effectively is a level 4 character, and should party with level 4 characters, and gains experience as a level 4 character. If you were to remove the racial hitdice of the Bugbear, he would then instead of being a level 3 humanoid (with humanoid hitice) he would have no racial hitdice and one level adjustment. Obviously he needs at least one hitdie to exist, so you would add a class level of his first class. He would then be ECL 2 for 1 class level plus 1 LA and no racial hitdice. Why is this bad? Because the Bugbear is "balanced" as being able to have 3 levels of humanoid, not 3 class levels (Which are inherently better), with a level adjustment of +1. Compare a Bugbear with 3 humanoid hitdice, 1 LA, and 5 monk* levels, to a bugbear with 8 monk* levels and 1 LA. They both are the same ECL, and should be partying together, but mechanically, the bugbear with 8 monk* levels is in every way superior to the bugbear that has the hitdice. If you remove hitdice, then the Level adjustment has to go up to compensate for the tradeoff of being able to have Class Levels instead of crappy humanoid levels. The level adjustment would probably go upto +2 at this point. Comparing again the bugbear with 3 humanoid hitdice, 1 LA, and 5 levels of monk*, and a bugbear with 2 LA and 7 levels of monk*, and you have a closer equality in power for the same ECL. Now why did I put balanced in quotes? Because it's not balanced. It's an attempt at balance. Instead of giving you the better bugbear stats for nothing, it costs you by making you have to take crappy hitdice as compared to class levels, and level adjustments that give you nothing. There's no science to it. It's an art, and as the DM, you just have to know the system well enough to feel it out for the appropriate level adjusment. It makes it harder on new DMs, and doesn't get any better for experienced ones. *Monk class picked arbitrarily. Any PC class is superior to almost any racial hitdice, with exception to maybe dragon or outsider hitdice.
Wih 10-01-07, 01:46 AM	As a general rule, each 2 Racial HD is worth about a +1 LA, but of course this rule doesn't always work. Anytime you're using an ECL progression, reqork it because it's going to need tinkering with. Remember that Bugbears get Scent, which IMHO pushes them up to a weak LA+3 character (if you aren't using HD for them). Removing scent makes them a decent LA +2 race (if a bit blant on the crunch side). Personally, I say ditch the MM version, make your own with it's own spicy little tidbits.
imakuni67 10-01-07, 12:17 PM	Don't try for removing the hit dice, instead aim at doing the LA buyout (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm)
Sphyre 10-01-07, 05:04 PM	Don't try for removing the hit dice, instead aim at doing the LA buyout (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) While we're on the subject of blanket statements that don't answer the OPs question. Don't try for removing the hit dice, instead wait for and play 4e where there are no LAs.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 10-01-07, 06:00 PM	Remember that Bugbears get Scent, which IMHO pushes them up to a weak LA+3 character (if you aren't using HD for them). Removing scent makes them a decent LA +2 race (if a bit bland on the crunch side). Lol no. Bugbears without racial HD are nowhere close to being LA +3. They are a weak +2 at most.
Mandarbgrim 10-01-07, 06:06 PM	I second the suggestion of reworking the Bugbear to make it a simple +1 LA race. I was working with the following for an Eberron goblinoid campaign that didn't happen. Bugbear +2 STR, +4 Con, -2 all mental stats Low Light Vision: 60 feet Monstrous Humanoid: Proficiency with all Simple Weapons Powerful Build: Race of Stone or XPH -2 on all Will Saves vs. Fear Effects Unstoppable Rage- Gain DR 1/- when raging. +1 Natural Armor Special: A Bugbear can select Scent as a feat choice. Favored Class: Barbarian ECL: +1 Unstoppable Rage might need to go, as well as the glassjaw will save penalty. Also swapping low light for dark vision is probably appropriate. I originally retained the move silently & had a Sudden Ambush type of ability that wasn't working out mechanically. It's modeled off of the Goliath, but it looks like I was being conservative at the time.
Wih 10-01-07, 07:24 PM	Lol no. Bugbears without racial HD are nowhere close to being LA +3. They are a weak +2 at most. Scent is Blindsight 5ft, Blindsense 30ft and an auto "I can track anything less than a day old". It's worth a +1 on it's own.
Mandarbgrim 10-01-07, 07:47 PM	I don't believe Scent is quite that good. Scent is even offered as a feat for some PHB races in the DMG. <I hope that I am not remembring 3.0> Within 30f<With some modifiers>: Only presence is detected. With a move action you can determine direction. Within 5ft the square is pinpointed, but you still only know the square, for invisible opponents they are still invisible..miss chance, ect. Tracking: Survival check of DC 10 +2 for each hour, as well as additional modifiers for other issues.
Wih 10-01-07, 08:02 PM	I don't believe Scent is quite that good. Scent is even offered as a feat for some PHB races in the DMG. <I hope that I am not remembring 3.0> Within 30f<With some modifiers>: Only presence is detected. With a move action you can determine direction. Within 5ft the square is pinpointed, but you still only know the square, for invisible opponents they are still invisible..miss chance, ect. Tracking: Survival check of DC 10 +2 for each hour, as well as additional modifiers for other issues. The only race I've ever seen that offers Scent as a feat was the Nezumi from Oriental Adventures, and that was 3.0. Presence detected is still enough to be able to say 'Invisible creatures within 30ft'. There is no way to use stealth to stop someone with Scent from sensing your prescence. It doesn't matter if you roll 10 or 100, they still smell you. While it never specifies if it's blindsight or blindsense in those terms, I'd say that the word 'pinpoint' means that it's accurate enough to detect where a pin's point is...that sounds like blindsight to me. 10+2 per hour (plus other issue for how strong their scent [which is always in your favour], running water etc) is a lot less than the modifiers for the standard track feat as long as they dont have too much of a headstart. It basically means that no-one can run away from you. And if it turns out harder, you can track by standard means. Summary: You can't be suprised, no-one can ever escape you without transportation magic, and you can tell how good their hygene is. Sounds like atleast a +1 LA to me.
Zaranthan 10-01-07, 09:05 PM	While it never specifies if it's blindsight or blindsense in those terms, I'd say that the word 'pinpoint' means that it's accurate enough to detect where a pin's point is...that sounds like blindsight to me. Many other instances of abilities with that language ("pinpoint the location") have extra caveats stating that the opponent still has total concealment. Anybody who's studied sharks can tell you that scent is NOT sight. 10+2 per hour (plus other issue for how strong their scent [which is always in your favour], running water etc) is a lot less than the modifiers for the standard track feat as long as they dont have too much of a headstart. It basically means that no-one can run away from you. And if it turns out harder, you can track by standard means. Crossing a river isn't a penalty, it breaks the trail completely. Covering your tracks works normally. Loop the trail back on itself and splash some water on the crossing point. It's not the "I Win" button you're interpreting it as. Summary: You can't be suprised, no-one can ever escape you without transportation magic, and you can tell how good their hygene is. Sounds like atleast a +1 LA to me. Hiding downwind is something any amateur hunter can tell you about. Water isn't magical (unless it comes from Faerun :). Back in the dark ages (which is when D&D is supposed to be spliced off of history), kings and peasants smelled pretty similar aside from casual odors (kings rarely stepped in manure, for example, but they didn't wash any more often). It's inappropriate for a LA+0 race, but it's not a +1 on its own, and should never be offered alone.
Zovc 10-01-07, 10:19 PM	While I have no direct responses, I have read over all of your posts, and I thank you all for the input. I've decided to try reworking the race, how does this look? +2 Strength, +4 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma. Medium Sized Darkvision out to 60 feet. A Bugbear’s base land speed is 30 feet. +1 natural armor bonus. Special: A bugbear may take the scent feat. Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc. Facored Class: Barbarian. Level Adjustment: +2
Daeva 10-01-07, 10:40 PM	congrats you have destroyed the flavor of the bugbear form a sneaky punk to a weak ogre, try again or just call it bugbears more aggressive less sneaky cousin the bearbug.
AtsuiShoto 10-01-07, 10:44 PM	While the +4 Con helps to offset the loss of 2 hitdice worth of HP, the +2 Str is only +1 melee attack compared against the +2 BAB you miss (which are much more important than just an attack bonus anyway). I like that this bugbear is not an openly obvious choice for a melee bruiser. Still, maybe it needs another solid reason to be a player choice, beyond just "I wanna be a bugbear!" I'm thinking Scent instead of scent-as-a-feat. Scent really isn't a game-killer if it isn't run abusively (like anything can be).
Zovc 10-01-07, 11:02 PM	congrats you have destroyed the flavor of the bugbear form a sneaky punk to a weak ogre, try again or just call it bugbears more aggressive less sneaky cousin the bearbug. Did I forget to mention that this is my campaign? I'm sorry my bugbears aren't the same as the ones you know and love; unfortunately, my players don't care what a bugbear is supposed to be (to you), seeing as this is not the Forgotten Realms. I will continue to call them bugbears, and in my campaign, they are meant to be "weak ogres," as you like to call them. While the +4 Con helps to offset the loss of 2 hitdice worth of HP, the +2 Str is only +1 melee attack compared against the +2 BAB you miss (which are much more important than just an attack bonus anyway). I like that this bugbear is not an openly obvious choice for a melee bruiser. Still, maybe it needs another solid reason to be a player choice, beyond just "I wanna be a bugbear!" I'm thinking Scent instead of scent-as-a-feat. Scent really isn't a game-killer if it isn't run abusively (like anything can be). So, you think making Scent a racial ability and adding strength +4 would not make them better than a LA+2? I'm trying not to make them ridiculously powerful.
AtsuiShoto 10-01-07, 11:31 PM	Well, I actually like that the +2 Str doesn't totally offset the loss of BAB. I just think that something additional (making Scent a racial ability was the suggestion) would be in order. I'm comparing this race against a Half-Giant (which I would consider balanced at its +1 LA), so Scent and Darkvision for a +1 LA? That's not so bad.
Zovc 10-01-07, 11:43 PM	Well, I actually like that the +2 Str doesn't totally offset the loss of BAB. I just think that something additional (making Scent a racial ability was the suggestion) would be in order. I'm comparing this race against a Half-Giant (which I would consider balanced at its +1 LA), so Scent and Darkvision for a +1 LA? That's not so bad. Perhaps Darkvision, Scent, and the Half-Giant's Powerful build? I think that those abilities, more constitution, and the +1 natural armor bonus makes them quite a bit more effective combatants than half giants. They'd also be able to carry much more and they would certainly be able to take the monkey grip feat if any of my races were able to. Also, how do you feel about me removing the -2 to Charisma? I put that thinking that bugbears are reserved, but that doesn't drastically impact the race's personality or sociability.
Zovc 10-02-07, 11:25 PM	Bump! Any comments on my previous post?
Darth Sephiroth 10-04-07, 01:11 AM	As a side note that could cover part of this, you could have a situation where you can still "Buy-Off" racial HD as if it was LA (Add racial HD to LA for purposes of LA buyoff, but actual LA is removed first). You gain class abilities of further levels of a class you already have (Meaning that the Bugbear Monk adds the bought off levels to his Monk levels for class abilities, but not BAB, saves, HD or skill points)
Zovc 10-04-07, 01:38 PM	As a side note that could cover part of this, you could have a situation where you can still "Buy-Off" racial HD as if it was LA (Add racial HD to LA for purposes of LA buyoff, but actual LA is removed first). You gain class abilities of further levels of a class you already have (Meaning that the Bugbear Monk adds the bought off levels to his Monk levels for class abilities, but not BAB, saves, HD or skill points) I appreciate your idea, but I just don't like racial hit dice at all. :P If at all possible, I'd rather remove them as opposed to just buying them off with experience. (I am still, however, using the level adjustment buy off variant for level adjustments.) As a side note, I compared a level 1 human fighter with 22 Strength, Constitution, 16 intelligence, and 18 wisdom, charisma, and dexterity to a level 3 fighter with 18 in all stats, they seemed pretty close, other than the large gap in health, I think the bugbear needs just a little bit more power to him. I'm thinking of adding 1d6 claws to them and a +4 racial bonus to intimidate checks, any comments on that?
Darth Sephiroth 10-05-07, 09:19 AM	Perhaps change it to replace the Racial HD with class HD then, though with some creatures the racial HD is pretty nice (Dragons for instance and Outsiders aren't that bad off).
Zovc 10-05-07, 02:03 PM	Perhaps change it to replace the Racial HD with class HD then, though with some creatures the racial HD is pretty nice (Dragons for instance and Outsiders aren't that bad off). I'd rather just deal with level adjustments, I really don't like the idea of generating a character above level 1. Now, I'm not against starting with a character above level 1, but I like making a character at level 1, then developing, this is just a pet peeve of mine.
ToastedAmphibian 10-05-07, 03:58 PM	Claw attacks tend to be less than usefull in alot of situations (Due to the fact that they are probably holding a weapon in there hands, and thus cant claw) Instead of 2-1d6claws, why not give them 1-1d8 slam? That would be usefull more often.
Mandarbgrim 10-05-07, 05:51 PM	A Bite or Gore attack makes more sense to me than slamming. I would go with reintroducing the sneaky or ambush element of the Bugbear. Perhaps that feat that adds +1d6 damage on the first round of combat combined with the original bonus to move silently.
Zovc 10-05-07, 09:31 PM	Claw attacks tend to be less than usefull in alot of situations (Due to the fact that they are probably holding a weapon in there hands, and thus cant claw) Instead of 2-1d6claws, why not give them 1-1d8 slam? That would be usefull more often. I understand that claws are less useful, however, a unarmed bugbear would thus be more potent than an unarmed member of the majority of his party members (assuming they are not bugbears. :P). I didn't give them the claws expecting them to use claws over, say, a longsword and a shield, I simply wanted to give them another advantage to make them a bit more useful. A Bite or Gore attack makes more sense to me than slamming. I would go with reintroducing the sneaky or ambush element of the Bugbear. Perhaps that feat that adds +1d6 damage on the first round of combat combined with the original bonus to move silently. I thought about adding a bite attack, but like I said, I don't want to give them extra attacks, just give them an edge when unarmed. I'm also thinking about boosting the natural armor bonus by +1.
Wylantern 10-06-07, 02:02 PM	The only race I've ever seen that offers Scent as a feat was the Nezumi from Oriental Adventures, and that was 3.0. Presence detected is still enough to be able to say 'Invisible creatures within 30ft'. There is no way to use stealth to stop someone with Scent from sensing your prescence. It doesn't matter if you roll 10 or 100, they still smell you. While it never specifies if it's blindsight or blindsense in those terms, I'd say that the word 'pinpoint' means that it's accurate enough to detect where a pin's point is...that sounds like blindsight to me. 10+2 per hour (plus other issue for how strong their scent [which is always in your favour], running water etc) is a lot less than the modifiers for the standard track feat as long as they dont have too much of a headstart. It basically means that no-one can run away from you. And if it turns out harder, you can track by standard means. Summary: You can't be suprised, no-one can ever escape you without transportation magic, and you can tell how good their hygene is. Sounds like atleast a +1 LA to me. Quite frankly I'm surprised that no one has ever tried to work Scent into a skill rather than a clunky ability. Some creatures have really good scenting abilities while others have it pretty bad. It brings a whole new subset of skills to the mind: Monster Skills. Of course, these would be class skills for whatever racial levels would normally have Scent, and only racial levels have access to these Monster Skills. This makes racial HD a lot better than what it is now.
Zovc 10-06-07, 05:50 PM	I don't want to make hit dice any better, I want to remove them.
Zovc 10-07-07, 09:52 PM	Tomorrow, I'm going to use Arscura (http://forums.gleemax.com/member.php?u=563172)'s Half Human Template (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=13764187&mode=linear) and see how my bugbear stacks up against a Forgotten Realms Orc. Bump, anyone have any comments?
RobbyPants 10-08-07, 04:27 PM	I don't believe Scent is quite that good. Scent is even offered as a feat for some PHB races in the DMG. <I hope that I am not remembring 3.0> That's 3.0. It was a feat back then, but it's just a special ability now. Scent is good but not awesome. As Wih said, you can't "hide" from scent, although you could try to mask it with another powerful odor or approach from downwind so you can get within range before being detected.
Rasmus Wagner 10-08-07, 04:42 PM	To muddle things up, I believe the LA's in Savage Species are mostly straight-up wrong, while the new MM's are at least within polite greeting distance of "reasonable". If you so much as utter the word "Desmodu", I will kill your dog. If you do not have a dog, one will be provided to you for me to kill. As a GM, I'm inclined to let PCs have Scent rather cheaply, if they really want it. Adds an interesting challenge for me. And it's nowhere near "Blindsight 5', Blindsense 30'".
Zovc 10-08-07, 06:49 PM	To muddle things up, I believe the LA's in Savage Species are mostly straight-up wrong, while the new MM's are at least within polite greeting distance of "reasonable". Where do you suggest I find something to compare with, then? Keep in mind I'm looking for a "barbaric" +2 LA.